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Leica's new APS-C Interchangeable lens camera

atanabe

Member
My name is Rayyan. It is clearly indicated on all my posts.

But back to the subject, does my not buying the ' T ' disqualify me from commenting in this thread.

Can't one comment based on official published specs.?
An old Hawaiian belief "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it". Keeps peace and happiness going, no one is insulted and life goes on. Systolic blood pressure is kept within normal limits.

This camera or any camera may not be for you but that should not be a reason to insult anyone's choice. I love Leicas and have had the opportunity to use this camera for a week and while it may not be my first choice, I will not negate the importance to others. To each their own, it is a great camera but it does not fit into my workflow and not going to spend my dollars on it. Cameras, like life partners are a personal choice and I will not publically denounce one's decision. I think that is the direction that this thread has taken.
 

Knorp

Well-known member
:OT:
While you're having 'fun' here, I'm going out taking a few snaps.
The weather is lovely today !
Laterrr ...
 

jlm

Workshop Member
i think you guys were being too hard on rayyan, and rayyan was a bit too harsh, but not entirely off base. have some grump allowance and respect that rayyan has a considerable history of valued input and imagery
see rayyan's comments with the perspective of hasselblad Lunar comments, for example, or the various ostrich skinned Hermes titanium leicas that are really not about photography, and this is a photography forum, isn't it?


the "sucker" comment is also a tribute to a time honored marketing dogma "a sucker is born every minute" which has motivated many a marketing campaign based on hype, not content, brand name, not technical qualities.

i did go check out the T at Leica Soho, nyc, and it has some appeal, swipes on the touch screen, simplified menu/button structure, etc. but as a few have said, it is missing a few relatively simple features available on similar cameras for 1/5th the price. plus the larger lens opening and new mount begs the question of full frame to come?
 
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scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
What's a "troll;" someone who posts something critical in a Leica thread?
Not quite. A troll inserts random distractions into a discussion, then sits back to enjoy the fun without contributing much. So...

Rayyan is a good photographer, and a regular participant in GetDPI. He isn't a troll.
Right. I owe him and the rest of us my apology for using "trolling" to describe the off-road excursions that have plagued this thread for the past day or so.

I like the style and look of the T, even though Leica's positioning of its target users makes me wait for the further evolution of its engineering innovations. There is a lot of engineering and design talent at Leica -- this shows some of it that has not yet found an outlet in the other product lines.

scott
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Another way to look at this is to consider the design intent: Leica has stood for several things over the years, including ease of control, light and compact, flexibility (to some degree) and high quality. This is a lasting heritage from having gotten the RF concept right many many years ago. Like other companies blessed and burdened with having gotten something very right long ago, Leica has struggled for some time to figure out a new updated path. Several different answers have been tried (remember the CL?) some better than others. Without getting into the issue of "C vs. D vs M", or the R saga, the reality is that they need a way forward. A carefully redone Panasonic isn't good enough. So the T.

This is a serious Leica effort to find forward footing, with a progressive design, easy interface, and a reasonable combination of both new (simpler) lenses with the possibility of the wide world of Leica glass. This is a new mix, presented in a product they designed (yes!). The digital interface "extends" ease of use; some will like it more than others. I like simplicity and remain unsure, but lets give Leica a thumbs up on this. Seems they got it right enough.

Unfortunately, it also has some older Leica quirks: the sensor isn't anything special, and the price is … high. Seems always this way, especially in their consumer models. Perhaps software tweaks and their fine lenses are enough to give the model sufficient distinction.

All to say its a new example of something they've been trying for some time. It is done in a way not found elsewhere, and so its hard to judge. I rather like its combination of old and new. It allows casual users to enjoy the Leica experience; maybe they will enjoy changing lenses. Maybe the more casual can grow into the larger Leica system thoughtfully. It extends the brand in a new way, and that is good. Lets see what the market thinks about it.
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
On a technical issue... Leica marketing information has been claiming that since the lenses, both the zoom and 23 mm prime, are completely Leica designs, distortions are corrected optically. The intended contrast is with other "mirrorless" lenses, some highly regarded, that use software. But at least two reviewers (DP Review and Reid Reviews) and one techie (Sandy McGuffog) noticed that the DNG files contain instructions to correct for barrel distortion, and took the trouble to look at the files using tools that eliminate the correction. The result is a little scary, maybe 5% barrel distortion at the wide end of the zoom, a bit less in the prime lens.

A) From the bit that I know about image processing, this should be correctable, with no loss of information except that the true (corrected) image will always be cropped by a few percent. That's the conclusion that DPReview takes. Reid feels that some loss of quality at the edges is to be expected. Another friend whom I consulted, with considerable experience, says he has never seen this kind of correction done without costs that he won't accept.

B) This is not the first example of Leica's message to the customers getting important engineering details wrong. The executives who until the last moment told Jono and other that the T, like the X-series, had an AA filter, is another. And the M8 story is too long to include here. Sigh.

scott
 

jonoslack

Active member
On a technical issue... Leica marketing information has been claiming that since the lenses, both the zoom and 23 mm prime, are completely Leica designs, distortions are corrected optically. The intended contrast is with other "mirrorless" lenses, some highly regarded, that use software. But at least two reviewers (DP Review and Reid Reviews) and one techie (Sandy McGuffog) noticed that the DNG files contain instructions to correct for barrel distortion, and took the trouble to look at the files using tools that eliminate the correction. The result is a little scary, maybe 5% barrel distortion at the wide end of the zoom, a bit less in the prime lens.

A) From the bit that I know about image processing, this should be correctable, with no loss of information except that the true (corrected) image will always be cropped by a few percent. That's the conclusion that DPReview takes. Reid feels that some loss of quality at the edges is to be expected. Another friend whom I consulted, with considerable experience, says he has never seen this kind of correction done without costs that he won't accept.

B) This is not the first example of Leica's message to the customers getting important engineering details wrong. The executives who until the last moment told Jono and other that the T, like the X-series, had an AA filter, is another. And the M8 story is too long to include here. Sigh.

scott
Hi There Scott
Have you actually SEEN the claim - or was it something that someone construed from an interview? It's just that I've always known there were lens corrections, and I don't think there was any question of that being a secret.

It's so stupid to pretend there were none when it's obvious that there are that I wonder whether it was a combination of careless talk and misinterpretation in an interview. Certainly I can't believe that it was a company policy to pretend there weren't.

all the best
Jono
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I could not agree more with Jono! I would really like to see where Leica officially claims that there are no lens corrections done for the T lenses! I never saw this claimed by Leica, but I remember seeing such claims from other non Leica sources on the Interent. As usual :mad:

Which tells me that there are obviously ALWAYS and STILL those bad voices about Leica - even if they develop something revolutionary and new like the Leica T system. I would invite all the naysayers and Leica haters to just stay away from Leica and Leica related threads in different forums - because this makes their life much easier as well as the life from those who like what Leica is doing.

I for myself am absolutely NO LEICA FANBOY - not after all the mess I had with the R system and DMR (no follow up) and the M8 which finally made me stop using digital M cameras with all the problems I had - and I still do not use any Leica M but rather wait for a next and hopefully better and cleaner implementation from Leica.

BUT IMHO the T System finally is a great step into the right direction. Is it really the best? I do not know! Has it really the best sensor? I doubt! Is it really the fastest? No way! Does it have the best lenses? I think so at least from what I could see in my tests! And so on ....

What I think is that Leica has really done a lot of things right with the T and for me it is the sign for a big change at Leica. There will be also a modern and "cheap" in Leica terms system in the future, which concentrates and forces to concentrate on the ESSENTIALS. This is the big new message, you can like it or not but this is their future path!

I for myself like it and will sure enjoy it (ordered mine this week). I am sure a lot of other serious photographers will like it or do so already! And others just enjoy without Leica and this system and you will be perfectly happy!
 

Terry

New member
Has anyone who's tried the camera used the wifi and app to control the camera or offload pictures? I tried to connect camera and my iPad in the Leica store and they didn't see each other. In addition, the folks at the store weren't able to get it to work yet with anyone. Not sure if it is enabled in the firmware they are running, we are doing something wrong or that the functionality doesn't work that great.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Has anyone who's tried the camera used the wifi and app to control the camera or offload pictures? I tried to connect camera and my iPad in the Leica store and they didn't see each other. In addition, the folks at the store weren't able to get it to work yet with anyone. Not sure if it is enabled in the firmware they are running, we are doing something wrong or that the functionality doesn't work that great.
When I tested mine in the Leica Store Vienna they told me that the current FW does still not work for WiFi. So this seems to be something which needs to be fixed in the final FW.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Hi There Scott
Have you actually SEEN the claim - or was it something that someone construed from an interview? It's just that I've always known there were lens corrections, and I don't think there was any question of that being a secret.

It's so stupid to pretend there were none when it's obvious that there are that I wonder whether it was a combination of careless talk and misinterpretation in an interview. Certainly I can't believe that it was a company policy to pretend there weren't.

all the best
Jono
From DPreview:

During pre-launch briefings for the T, Leica was very keen to stress the optical quality of the new lenses. Most interestingly, we were told they relied on optical corrections, rather than software to project the best possible image onto the sensor. So with this in mind, when processing some images from the Leica T, we were surprised by a notification that Adobe Camera Raw gave us.
It seemed Leica had given some people the idea. Apparently, you were told more than the marketing folks or the marketing folks might have thought no one would find out because in most situations you cannot turn it off. Either way, the expectations were there. In a pre-launch meeting, those specs would be known.

Leica T lenses: Correcting some distortions: Digital Photography Review
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Every digital camera sold today uses software correction. Next topic?
What is wrong? There have been some questions asked about this topic and some of us would like to discuss this. You do not have to participate nor even read those posts.
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
Hi There Scott
Have you actually SEEN the claim - or was it something that someone construed from an interview? It's just that I've always known there were lens corrections, and I don't think there was any question of that being a secret.
I'll check to see if any early reviewers other than DPReview say this or only early bloggers. I haven't spotted this in any material that Leica has put out.

scott
 

bradhusick

Active member
What is wrong? There have been some questions asked about this topic and some of us would like to discuss this. You do not have to participate nor even read those posts.
Nothing's wrong. I enjoy reading these. I just find it mildly amusing that so many people are concerned that a digital camera might use software.

News flash: Digital cameras DON'T use film! More on this breaking story at 11.

:LOL:
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Nothing's wrong. I enjoy reading these. I just find it mildly amusing that so many people are concerned that a digital camera might use software.

News flash: Digital cameras DON'T use film! More on this breaking story at 11.

:LOL:
Yes, but you come off as rather patronizing, whether you intend to or not.

The issue here is not whether digital cameras use software, but how Leica was going to design the lenses. Were they actually going to try an make optics that needed no corrections. That would be pretty amazing and a departure from most, but not all, digital lens designs (not all digital cameras actually have lens correction). Leica has a reputation of designing excellent lenses that make few compromises. It would be interesting to see how much work they would put into these Japanese manufactured lenses for an APS system.
 

peterv

New member
I'll check to see if any early reviewers other than DPReview say this or only early bloggers. I haven't spotted this in any material that Leica has put out.

scott
Exactly! DPR says they were told ...

Even if this were true, it makes you wonder how much those DPR 'journalists' know about contemporary optical design. Just about every lens maker provides, together with software developers, digital corrections nowadays. Heck, Phase and Hasselblad do it with their lenses that cost much, much more. Ditto for Leica S. Simply believing a company representative that says otherwise makes these 'journalist' appear quite naive.

It seems to me almost as if DPR willingly tried to harm Leica's reputation. They could have just contacted Leica and given the right information, leave it at that, instead of calling the company representatives liars.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Exactly! DPR says they were told ...

Even if this were true, it makes you wonder how much those DPR 'journalists' know about contemporary optical design. Just about every lens maker provides, together with software developers, digital corrections nowadays. Heck, Phase and Hasselblad do it with their lenses that cost much, much more. Ditto for Leica S. Simply believing a company representative that says otherwise makes these 'journalist' appear quite naive.

It seems to me almost as if DPR willingly tried to harm Leica's reputation. They could have just contacted Leica and given the right information, leave it at that, instead of calling the company representatives liars.
Wow. in a pre-launch meeting, you first assumption is the people giving the information are simply wrong! And so your are naive for reporting what you are told?

What is the benefit of DPR libeling a manufacturer? Is that so they can be blackballed by the manufacture? But it does make a pleasant change from bashing DPR as simply stooges for the camera companies. Certainly, it could not have been a mis-communication from Leica...
 
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