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Thread: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

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    Arrow NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Bart ...

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    I saw that, and the rumours say "4K video"

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Awesome...lured me into buying the S with the $5000 off so they could roll out a new version....

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    This could be a really stunning 4k video camera!

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    how would the sensor size compare to the Phase 250?

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    why would you want to buy a leica for 4k video? You can buy an epic or black magic or many pro 4k cameras for less and have much better result.
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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    how would the sensor size compare to the Phase 250?
    The Leica S2 value proposition is heavy-35mm handling, plus a stable of really excellent lenses that cover its 30 x 45 mm sensor, so I would expect that size to be maintained in any future many megapixel product. Phase sensor sizes vary, with a maximum size of 45 x 60 mm, so legacy Hasselblad and other 6x6 and 6x7-9 lenses are a good fit, plus tech-cam lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock.

    I sometimes shoot with Hasselblads, their basic lenses and a 39 MPx P45+ when I want a lot of information in each image. All purchased used, or at least long since depreciated. For Leica to offer very high mega pixel count, outstanding lens quality, and DSLR handling is an interesting, but appallingly expensive alternative.

    scott

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    why would you want to buy a leica for 4k video?
    I don't think anyone would buy a new S just for the 4k but no one knows if and how this would be implemented.

    Maybe it will just record Time Lapse 4k @? fps. The new Pentax that does so-called interval video recording of 4K-resolution images (3840 x 2160 pixels; in Motion JPEG or AVI video format) I'm thinking if Pentax can't or won't put in a processor that's fast enough to move around the tremendous amount of data in 4k video, would Leica be wanting and/or able to pull that off?

    Of course I'm hoping for 4k in the S, but I remain sceptical whether Leica can do it. Perhaps with external recording via HDMI, like the Sony 7s, fingers crossed.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmbma View Post
    You can buy an epic or black magic or many pro 4k cameras for less and have much better result.
    That remains to be seen, until such an S will be available for actual testing. Maybe they'll come up with a new CMOSIS sensor that can do outstanding video, who knows? Of course the ergonomics of an S will never be anything like a dedicated professional motion camera such as an Alexa.

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    so then is sony making several 36-50mp CMOS sensors, all different sizes:
    Sony A7R, Leica S, Phase 250/hasselblad.

    sort of splitting hairs with Leica in the middle

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    so then is sony making several 36-50mp CMOS sensors, all different sizes:
    Sony A7R, Leica S, Phase 250/hasselblad.

    sort of splitting hairs with Leica in the middle
    My money is on Cmosis..

    it will be very interesting to see how this chip performs,If I trade my S against this it will be for live view function,although I am keen to see how the new sensor handles skin tones..

    I suspect it will have wifi and an iOS app to control it like this https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/leic...678948440?mt=8

    Rob

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    If it's going to be a CMOSIS sensor for the new S, it'll be interesting to see how the IQ will compare to the rest of the CMOS MF camera's that all seem to be going the Sony-route.

    - It will be hard to compete with Sony, IQ-wise
    - Perhaps going with CMOSIS will give the new S a unique look, which could be an interesting sales argument*

    * I'm not a technician and I read different lines of thought about this. Basically, one says the look can be adjusted in the camera, the other says the signal from the CMOS sensor is digital and already has a look baked in by the sensor, a look is then obtained in PP.

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Wonder if they will offer a trade up deal...

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    I'm looking for 5 point sensor stabilization, high ISO 400,000, predictive direction auto focus, live view, flash sync at 1/1600 sec, built in radio popper, tilt shift, focus stacking, remote control thru I phone, quad core super high speed processors, titanium and carbon fiber body, focus masking, auto focus confirmation, swivel 2.5m - 3.0m dot screen, built in flash with remote triggering capabilities, a few 0.95 lenses, smaller foot print, ability to use the fastest storage cards, mirror lock up button, on camera far near DOF calculation, magnetic cable release, improved grip, quick built in tripod release, touch screen, 12 FPS and low light focus assist. This seems to all be possible most if not all is years old technology Leica "Be all you can be"
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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    I am pretty sure you are joking bab, but assuming you are not, we have slightly different priorities!
    Personally I am very skeptical of the CMOS sensors. I am yet to see one I like, and that includes the M240. I am still with an M9 and S2 and run a print studio where I see files from a ton of other cameras, and nothing I have seen has been better than those two to my eyes. I don't get many of the latest MFD files though...tons of Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony however.

    If the new S does have CMOS, but can't replicate the color and file quality of the S2 at base ISO, I will have no interest in it. I rarely use the camera off of base ISO, so while better high ISO performance would be nice in theory, it is pretty much irrelevant for my work...and I say that as someone who works with a ton of night images! The color and overall feel of the files (sharpness, grain structure etc) are 90% of the consideration.

    If they can preserve that, then I would personally like some more resolution (I often print at 1mx1.5m and at that size the prints are 120dpi, but the lenses have more than enough sharpness to bring that way up if the sensor can match it).

    After resolution, I would prefer better low ISO long-exposure performance...less noise at 60-125 seconds exposure and a longer maximum exposure.

    After that, an in-camera option to limit the focusing range of the AF in the 120 Macro would be nice to keep it from cycling from 1:2 to infinity when it hunts.

    Live view could be useful for me when I do artwork reproduction, but otherwise I don't really care. It comes in handy at times, but not at all critical for me.

    Video seems kind of ridiculous to me on this camera, unless they do a dedicated video version for cinematographers, but suffice to say it does not matter to me. If it is added, I would assume they think that fashion-shooters and advertising photographers might use it. Personally, my thought would be that if you have 20,000 dollars for an S camera, you probably have the money for a proper video camera (and videographer!) if that is needed. Leica does not seem to have done well so far in their video implementations.

    Faster AF, better interface? I think they mostly improved on that in the S (versus the S2 that I have), but if they can make it better, great.

    If it is just a 40-50mp CMOS with M240 color and file quality only higher res, I doubt I would buy it.
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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by bab View Post
    I'm looking for 5 point sensor stabilization, high ISO 400,000, predictive direction auto focus, live view, flash sync at 1/1600 sec, built in radio popper, tilt shift, focus stacking, remote control thru I phone, quad core super high speed processors, titanium and carbon fiber body, focus masking, auto focus confirmation, swivel 2.5m - 3.0m dot screen, built in flash with remote triggering capabilities, a few 0.95 lenses, smaller foot print, ability to use the fastest storage cards, mirror lock up button, on camera far near DOF calculation, magnetic cable release, improved grip, quick built in tripod release, touch screen, 12 FPS and low light focus assist. This seems to all be possible most if not all is years old technology Leica "Be all you can be"

    Spot on! And for less than a Corolla!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I am pretty sure you are joking bab, but assuming you are not, we have slightly different priorities!
    Personally I am very skeptical of the CMOS sensors. I am yet to see one I like, and that includes the M240. I am still with an M9 and S2 and run a print studio where I see files from a ton of other cameras, and nothing I have seen has been better than those two to my eyes. I don't get many of the latest MFD files though...tons of Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony however.

    If the new S does have CMOS, but can't replicate the color and file quality of the S2 at base ISO, I will have no interest in it. I rarely use the camera off of base ISO, so while better high ISO performance would be nice in theory, it is pretty much irrelevant for my work...and I say that as someone who works with a ton of night images! The color and overall feel of the files (sharpness, grain structure etc) are 90% of the consideration.

    If they can preserve that, then I would personally like some more resolution (I often print at 1mx1.5m and at that size the prints are 120dpi, but the lenses have more than enough sharpness to bring that way up if the sensor can match it).

    After resolution, I would prefer better low ISO long-exposure performance...less noise at 60-125 seconds exposure and a longer maximum exposure.

    After that, an in-camera option to limit the focusing range of the AF in the 120 Macro would be nice to keep it from cycling from 1:2 to infinity when it hunts.

    Live view could be useful for me when I do artwork reproduction, but otherwise I don't really care. It comes in handy at times, but not at all critical for me.

    Video seems kind of ridiculous to me on this camera, unless they do a dedicated video version for cinematographers, but suffice to say it does not matter to me. If it is added, I would assume they think that fashion-shooters and advertising photographers might use it. Personally, my thought would be that if you have 20,000 dollars for an S camera, you probably have the money for a proper video camera (and videographer!) if that is needed. Leica does not seem to have done well so far in their video implementations.

    Faster AF, better interface? I think they mostly improved on that in the S (versus the S2 that I have), but if they can make it better, great.

    If it is just a 40-50mp CMOS with M240 color and file quality only higher res, I doubt I would buy it.
    Ditto, almost word for word.

    If the new S sensor is the same size as the S2/S, and the resolution is 40ish meg, I doubt anyone would be able to see the resolution difference from the current 37.7 meg.

    CMOS with Live view is more important in the small cameras with tunnel viewfinders, but the S camera's viewfinder is so big and bright it's less of a need. It would be nice to be able to magnify the LV for tripod table-top or macro work to nail focus but I am usually using lighting and stopping down to f/8+ anyway, so it is a non-issue. I sure wouldn't pay $25 to 30K for a new body just for that.

    I have no problem with the AF or the interface with my S2P as it is. For me, the only compelling thing about the current S is the $5000k Promo and a new warranty and that it seems it will be the last CCD sensor S camera which makes it even more compelling.

    The S2P is my favorite DSLR ever. I've had it long enough now to have gotten very fast and intuitive with it shooting things many say can't be done with it.

    Besides, my wife hid my hockey helmet, and now has an even bigger baseball bat with a lead core

    - Marc
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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Totally agree! If the new S is 40mp CMOS with M240 color/feel, I will likely consider the outgoing S with the CCD just to get the warranty and slightly improved ISO, interface and AF. The S2 is the best full-sized camera I have ever used from an image quality and usability standpoint, so giving up it's file quality mojo for a bit higher resolution and more video/live view/high ISO features would not be in the cards for me...at least not before my S2 kicks the bucket (which I doubt will be very soon, barring any disasters!!).

    Like Marc said, while live view can be quite useful, the situations where it is most useful for me would also be the situations where I am shooting tethered in a studio. I can see nearly everything in the huge viewfinder, the AF is absolutely dead-on for me, and what I can't check with that, a quick exposure loads up a full resolution file in lightroom after a few seconds.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    One thing I would like to improved is that AF locks faster. IMO it is not faster in the S (C-AF has improved though) As a handheld shooter better high ISO would extend the usability of the S for me.
    However I also would not want any compromises in color/IQ at lower iso like you other guys say.

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Ditto, almost word for word.

    If the new S sensor is the same size as the S2/S, and the resolution is 40ish meg, I doubt anyone would be able to see the resolution difference from the current 37.7 meg.

    CMOS with Live view is more important in the small cameras with tunnel viewfinders, but the S camera's viewfinder is so big and bright it's less of a need. It would be nice to be able to magnify the LV for tripod table-top or macro work to nail focus but I am usually using lighting and stopping down to f/8+ anyway, so it is a non-issue. I sure wouldn't pay $25 to 30K for a new body just for that.

    I have no problem with the AF or the interface with my S2P as it is. For me, the only compelling thing about the current S is the $5000k Promo and a new warranty and that it seems it will be the last CCD sensor S camera which makes it even more compelling.

    The S2P is my favorite DSLR ever. I've had it long enough now to have gotten very fast and intuitive with it shooting things many say can't be done with it.

    Besides, my wife hid my hockey helmet, and now has an even bigger baseball bat with a lead core

    - Marc
    Marc,even if the new sensor is 50mp it still wouldn't be that noticeable a difference compared to 37.5mp,it's a 15% increase,useable high ISO might be useful though..

    I think if I have a choice of the new body or the 30-90 lens I would take the lens..

    Rob

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by bab View Post
    I'm looking for 5 point sensor stabilization, high ISO 400,000, predictive direction auto focus, live view, flash sync at 1/1600 sec, built in radio popper, tilt shift, focus stacking, remote control thru I phone, quad core super high speed processors, titanium and carbon fiber body, focus masking, auto focus confirmation, swivel 2.5m - 3.0m dot screen, built in flash with remote triggering capabilities, a few 0.95 lenses, smaller foot print, ability to use the fastest storage cards, mirror lock up button, on camera far near DOF calculation, magnetic cable release, improved grip, quick built in tripod release, touch screen, 12 FPS and low light focus assist. This seems to all be possible most if not all is years old technology Leica "Be all you can be"
    Sounds like a lot of stuff to go wrong and send the camera for multiple spa vacations in Germany all expenses paid by you once the warranty expires.

    BTW, You forgot to add the $75,000 price tag for a S camera with all this stuffed into it.

    Dear clueless:

    Who has "years old" 5 point IS in a MFD camera?

    Super High ISO is available in some cameras, but all of them equally look super shyly.

    1/1600 sync would mean all new CS lenses, since it is the lenses that currently allow 1/1000. CS lenses are already heart grippingly expensive, and replacing them to get 1/2 stop more sync would be an "end of life as we know it" scenario

    Magnetic cable release? Why? So it can fall off when trekking through the wilds?

    0.95 MFD lens? Cool for absolutely nothing in focus images. MFD f/1.8 DOF is already almost zero.

    Mirror lock up button, lowlight focus assist already is there.

    12 FPS in a MF-DSLR camera would sound like a Godzillia's teeth chattering.

    Built-in flash like a P&S? Hasselblad H has that, and not one person I know ever used it. Rinky-Dink stuff.

    Radio Popper technology in an S? Really? At best maybe SF58s with radio TTL. The only built-in I'd be interested in is Profoto AIR since it syncs to 1/1000 but I'm sure Bron-Color users wouldn't agree with that either.

    Heck, while we're at it how about filling the camera with Helium so it weighs 3 oz of course the electronics would have to be shielded to avoid blowing your hands off.

    All kidding aside, with the S, Leica managed to make a camera with a simple interface, and the right balance of features to accomplish many tasks while keeping the emphasis on image excellence.

    Hope they keep it that way.

    - Marc

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    I agree with most that's been said these last few posts. The IQ of my S2P is gorgeous and I'm afraid a CMOS version will not have the look we've all come to appreciate over the last years.

    What will probably not happen, but I'd personally like, is a second S line with big sensel CMOS for reportage. One high res CCD S, one high ISO CMOS. That would bring versatility to the system. (of course AF and such would not be in the D4 league, but I'd take that for granted)

    BTW, did you guys see the new S Magazine? It's been available for download on the iPad since yesterday.

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    Marc,even if the new sensor is 50mp it still wouldn't be that noticeable a difference compared to 37.5mp,it's a 15% increase,useable high ISO might be useful though..

    I think if I have a choice of the new body or the 30-90 lens I would take the lens..

    Rob
    Me too Rob.

    While I am mostly a prime lens shooter, the 30-90 would extend usage of the S2-P as a one lens travel/walk about.

    Since I am in process of securing a residence in South Florida, winters will be filled with light rather than the Moscow grey skies for 6 months here in Michigan. This past winter was brutal, and the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Never again.

    Of course that means I have no money to get the 30-90.

    - Marc

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    One thing I would like to improved is that AF locks faster. IMO it is not faster in the S (C-AF has improved though) As a handheld shooter better high ISO would extend the usability of the S for me.
    However I also would not want any compromises in color/IQ at lower iso like you other guys say.
    Maybe it is having used MFD for a decade, or the way I tend to shoot and pick my AF target, but I do not have any issues with lock-on with the exception of the 120/2.5 Macro which is like a trained bird dog that loves to hunt. However, I rarely use that lens in AF mode.

    I still use the Hasselblad HC100/2.2 via the H to S adapter for shallow DOF portrait work, and that lens locks pretty fast. Much shorter focus throw than the CS 120, and the f/2.2 aperture probably helps with the AF.

    - Marc

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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Quote Originally Posted by peterv View Post
    I agree with most that's been said these last few posts. The IQ of my S2P is gorgeous and I'm afraid a CMOS version will not have the look we've all come to appreciate over the last years.

    What will probably not happen, but I'd personally like, is a second S line with big sensel CMOS for reportage. One high res CCD S, one high ISO CMOS. That would bring versatility to the system. (of course AF and such would not be in the D4 league, but I'd take that for granted)

    BTW, did you guys see the new S Magazine? It's been available for download on the iPad since yesterday.
    There is a B&W video clip on the iPad version of the S Magazine. Maybe the new CMOS S will have the video capability.
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    Re: NEW S 40/50 MP CMOS

    Thanks, I had missed that. Video in the iPad App has been done before, for example in the Jonathan Mannion New Orleans reportage, a few years back. It's a nice feature of the App software they use.

    If Leica could only use the new Sony 7s sensor and make a nice ~18 MP reportage S with video. Argh, won't happen.

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