Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

[jonoslack]

Are you sating the M240 is back-heavy and understeers? :salute:

I find it quite nicely balanced with precise handling, with just a hint of oversteer in highlights if pushed over the limits. The M9 was more like a old time 911 Porsche, nasty handling at the limits when pushed too hard.

That said, with 911's many people still vouch for the air cooled models of old time, due to feeling, even when they are so clearly beaten by modern technology on the track.

//Juha :watch:

Excellent Juha :clap:

 

[jonoslack]

Jono

Sorry I don t understand your point of view ?

Just to go back a bit ….no one followed the logic of the Mono introduction . Lets look at some facts on that one as a reference . (1) sales of the M9P had dropped off the cliff …they were in stock everywhere and they were priced even higher than the M9 ……(2) the M240 and the new plant(s) were both behind schedule …….so what was Leica going to sell and keep the plant loaded .

The Mono could be made with many of the existing components and because of an expected surge in demand (maybe for short period of time ) would nicely load the existing production facilities .

It was IMHO a brilliant solution to a significant business problem and allowed time to transition to the M240 . It had absolutely nothing to do with the desire to produce a B&W solution . Sounds good and was packaged nicely by marketing .

Well Roger - I absolutely followed the logic of the MM - I was involved with discussions about it, and had a really early prototype to test - I always thought it would sell. . . . .

You should be careful making assumptions about sales of different cameras however - there is a lot of 'knowledge' about the net, but Leica don't publish these figures, so it's pretty much all hearsay.

I don t for a minute think Leica needs an ME (CCD) camera in the product line for any other reason but to continue their supply of sensors for maintenance and repair . The most straight forward approach would be to keep making the existing ME(CCD) in small batches a few times a year and do the same with the Mono. But they also have problems with several other component suppliers for the original digital M platform .

Actually, as far as I'm aware, the ME has been a real success, so the principle was obviously a good one .

But I don't think your logic stacks up here - if they have to redesign because of other supply issues, then it won't really solve the problem for older cameras . . . but will make a new potential problem for the newer cameras!

I would completely agree that its seems far fetched to believe that the classic digital M body (M8,M9,Mono) could be modified in a way to accept the M240 battery and a new LCD . If it could ..how could we justify the expense over such a low volume of product ?

It also seems a stretch to believe that Leica can justify moving the entire CCD platform to the M240 body . This would however have some long term benefits if possible .

I guess I agree …the whole proposition seems like a bridge too far . From a product/technology perspective appears unlikely . Yet…….

Well, Yet nothing - but it seems to me that we agree with each other entirely, except that you think they might do it and I'm pretty sure they won't (I certainly agree that some people would like it).

How big a problem do you think it will be when Leica can t supply CCD sensor replacements ?

Well, I hope that they're stockpiling enough whilst they're still available, but I don't think producing another camera which uses them really solves the problem, (at best) it just pushes it forwards a bit.

all the best

 

[D&A]

Are you sating the M240 is back-heavy and understeers? :salute:

I find it quite nicely balanced with precise handling, with just a hint of oversteer in highlights if pushed over the limits. The M9 was more like a old time 911 Porsche, nasty handling at the limits when pushed too hard.

That said, with 911's many people still vouch for the air cooled models of old time, due to feeling, even when they are so clearly beaten by modern technology on the track.

//Juha :watch:

Juha,

That's exactly my point! Each group has it's preference...whether we're talking about M9 vs. M240 or current Porsche vs. 911's. There is no right or wrong, just what feels right to each particular user. Superiority by the numbers also doesn't always imply that one model is superior to another. Every day I see commercials on TV showing lowly brand "X" car having more truck space than a Mercedes and lowly brand "Y" car having better 0-60mph acceleration than that Mercedes (and so on)...yet few given a choice would pick brand "X", "Y" or "Z" based that these brands are superior by the numbers to a Porsche or a Mercedes in a number of areas. Each will pick the model that suits their needs and works best for their intended use. Again its not a question of which is superior, it's a question of which is superior for the intended users needs and desires.

Dave (D&A)

 

[glenerrolrd]

Jono

To maintain a supply of CCD sensors Leica must commit to specific quantities . The larger the batch(order) the lower the per sensor cost . Since Leica can control when and if they make CCD bodies …they can smooth the demand for sensors between spare parts and new production .

If demand they stop making CCD bodies ….they will have to predict spare parts demand over a far long lead time ..when the make an order . Apologies if this is getting to much into supply chain management . Its not that Trusense can t make the sensors ..its that Leica does t want to order them in large batches …so they forecast (guess) and sometimes run out .

I have no idea what Leica will do …but I am sure it will be based on production and supply chain considerations …and very little to do with what the market place is asking for .

FYI it is easy to estimate Leica production and sales from the many sources of available information . When the M8 and M9 where released I checked my estimates with people at Leica that absolutely know the production rates and I was always close enough .

Enough on this subject I think .

 

[jaapv]

Jono, Are we certain that all the current M-E's and MM bodies currently being made are using sensors from Leica stockpiles of CCD sensors. I suspect they are still being manufactured and there is no reason the same basic sensor couldn't go into a M240 type body. Of course features like live view, video, focus peaking, etc. would be absent.

Dave (D&A)

I'm sure that Leica was smart enought to have a contract with Kodak/
Truesense to ensure continued production for a stated period of time, and does not rely on stockpiling.

 

[D&A]

I'm sure that Leica was smart enought to have a contract with Kodak/
Truesense to ensure continued production for a stated period of time, and does not rely on stockpiling.

I would agree and that's why I feel something may be done with the Truesense CCD Sensors in a new or updated body.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Duane Pandorf]

I would agree and that's why I feel something may be done with the Truesense CCD Sensors in a new or updated body.

Dave (D&A)

Dave, as a Leica M-E user and am very happy with its output, I don't think there's a chance in, you know where, that Leica will release a new CCD M camera.

I think the writing on the wall will be the update to the S2. If it goes CMOS definitely end of story.

Now that the latest M firmware has been released today, many of the complaints I would have with the camera have been solved. The major one being able to deactivate the Movie button! Second is the Auto ISO in M mode.

Other than that, I would think that Leica's current agreement with their CMOS manufacturer will enable them to keep their costs much lower than trying to please a few of us that still have a CCD based M.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong but I don't think it will ever happen.

 

[D&A]

Dave, as a Leica M-E user and am very happy with its output, I don't think there's a chance in, you know where, that Leica will release a new CCD M camera.

I think the writing on the wall will be the update to the S2. If it goes CMOS definitely end of story.

Now that the latest M firmware has been released today, many of the complaints I would have with the camera have been solved. The major one being able to deactivate the Movie button! Second is the Auto ISO in M mode.

Other than that, I would think that Leica's current agreement with their CMOS manufacturer will enable them to keep their costs much lower than trying to please a few of us that still have a CCD based M.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong but I don't think it will ever happen.

Duane, you're probably right. I wasn't thinking of a whole, newly designed CCD sensor body but more in line with an update/upgrade to the exisiting M-E. Maybe better rear LCD, quieter shutter ala M240 and a number of desirable M240 features that would transfer easily to a M-E based body.

Again something tells me we are not at the end of the line with regards to Leica utilizing CCD for at least one body for the foreseeable future.

Dave (D&A)