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Thread: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

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    Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Hi All,

    Leica Rumors just posted about a possible updated M-E body. It might not be an M240 incorporating a CCD (instead of it's CMOS) sensor, but it might be heading somewhat in that direction. Better rear LCD, battery and possibly other updates for those that prefer the look of M9 files (as I do).

    It's anyone's guess but I find it interesting. Maybe Leica is listening after all.

    Here is the link:

    Leica rumored to announce a M-E camera replacement | Leica News & Rumors

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Photokina can't come soon enough!
    Segedi.com

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    If a CCD version of an M240 did materialize, does that suggest that there IS a difference in look between CCD and CMOS sensors? I don't have extensive experience of CCD. I understand the benefits of high ISO and live view that comes with CMOS, but was wondering if there is a consensus about why some people like the CCD look more - is it less "digital" (more "crunch" to the look and with no plastic-looking smearing, is it more film like than CMOS etc?)
    Last edited by Jon Warwick; 19th June 2014 at 03:53.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Jon, if this rumor is even remotely true, it suggests that some M digital users were pleased with the look and feel of the M9 files regardless of how it was achieved. It may be a confluence of a number of interacting attributes including, but not limited to, the use of a CCD sensor.

    I am one of those who favored the M9 look and feel, and rarely felt constrained by ISO limits or 18 meg. In fact, I specifically preferred the look of the M9 at ISO 640, which I felt was most "film like" in appearance.

    I also am of the opinion that massive DR is an over-blown attribute, and do not recall many instances where it was an issue with the M9 … but freely admit that would be specific to how and what I shoot in tandem with the processing techniques I use for all the CCD cameras I have used (Hasselblad H, Leica S, M8 and M9).

    It would be a nice option to get the M9 sensor in a better body … better LCD read-out, and hopefully the better rangefinder of the M240. Oh, and a black body rather than the (IMHO) ugly grey).

    A simple, pure rangefinder without all the bells & whistles would be just fine with me. Meanwhile, the M Monochrome does the trick for rangefinder work.

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Dave,

    It could also be due to availability issue of their current LCD screen.

    Vince
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I am one of those who favored the M9 look and feel, and rarely felt constrained by ISO limits or 18 meg. In fact, I specifically preferred the look of the M9 at ISO 640, which I felt was most "film like" in appearance.
    Agree re IS0 640 on the M9.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    This has piqued my interest too, as I consider going back to a digital M. But I would likely pass if a CMOS sensor, and would prefer a higher pixel CCD with better ISO performance. I shoot B&W almost exclusively and love the M8/M9 look. I'm also keen to see what the X-Pro2 offers.

    John

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Don't believe everything you read.
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Warwick View Post
    If a CCD version of an M240 did materialize, does that suggest that there IS a difference in look between CCD and CMOS sensors? I don't have extensive experience of CCD. I understand the benefits of high ISO and live view that comes with CMOS, but was wondering if there is a consensus about why some people like the CCD look more - is it less "digital" (more "crunch" to the look and with no plastic-looking smearing, is it more film like than CMOS etc?)
    Thats what some people write.
    For me - I am not sure. I sometimes feel tht overall I was happier with the M9 results than with those from the M-T240 - but then when I run some comparisons the difference between the files is not so clear. Sometimes I prefer the M9 files but sometimes the ones form the new M. It also seems that C1 has better profiles for the M than LR so one should probably not judge just based on LR processing.

    It would be nice to have the option between both sensors in a newer body, but I can not imagine Leica would go this way.
    On the other side -even though the new M has some clear advantages in regards of speed and rangefinder and display the M9/ME is still a good camera IMO.
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    ....would prefer a higher pixel CCD with better ISO performance. I shoot B&W almost exclusively and love the M8/M9 look.
    This already exists, it's called the M Monochrom!

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    I hate to pull the old "where there's smoke there's fire" but fairly credible photographers have commented on the "LOOK" difference M9 to M240. This happened with "fat pixels" film vs digital etc. as well

    Everyone has their aesthetic preference, and I for one also find the M9 files to have more depth and "reach in" look to them.

    Can you reproduce? I have noticed M files becoming more m9 like over time. Firmware? processing? Who knows. But I do object to those who say that those of us who see things are "seeing things" LOL

    Marc, who has great credibility here (as well as evidence of his professional eye) says it right when he comments that it MAY be CCD vs CMOS or other things. We don't know. But differences are not illusions; they are real.

    I for one wojld like either a CMOS with less flatness (sorry, thats what I see) or CCD with better ISO performance.,

    All life is compromise, and Leica seems to be doing ist best to focus on the IMAGE as the end game. Good for them; whether CMOS, CCD or whatever, I am glad someone makes a camera better than that on the iphone.

    regards
    Victor
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Nicely put Victor!

    Marc, I agree with vitually all you wrote in your post "above" except for one thing. I too thought the Greyish-Green M-E body was hidious looking in pictures but once I saw the real thing, it looked astonishing good, business like, subdued and doesn't call attention to itself. It actually looks good with both silver and black lenses. Thats not to say is surpases Black or for that matter the elegance of silver...but when viewed in real life, a lot of people quickly chaged their minds about its appearance. As usual, to each their own.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    The CCD vs. CMOS differences are true, but only apply if you sit back and do nothing to adjust the pictures.

    Otherwise simple post processing makes one look like the other. Its the mid-tone micro contrast that makes the most difference, adjusting that in Viveza or Color Efex Pro is an easy and less expensive way to make a CMOS file look like a CCD file. But I do appreciate that buying a new camera is more exciting.

    Steve
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Nicely put Victor!

    Marc, I agree with vitually all you wrote in your post "above" except for one thing. I too thought the Greyish-Green M-E body was hidious looking in pictures but once I saw the real thing, it looked astonishing good, business like, subdued and doesn't call attention to itself. It actually looks good with both silver and black lenses. Thats not to say is surpases Black or for that matter the elegance of silver...but when viewed in real life, a lot of people quickly chaged their minds about its appearance. As usual, to each their own.

    Dave (D&A)
    Point taken. I've never seen a Leica M-E in person.

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    The CCD vs. CMOS differences are true, but only apply if you sit back and do nothing to adjust the pictures.

    ...simple post processing makes one look like the other. Its the mid-tone micro contrast that makes the most difference, adjusting that in Viveza or Color Efex Pro is an easy and less expensive way to make a CMOS file look like a CCD file.

    Steve
    Which is great if you have only a few pictures to adjust. I imagine that most pros who need to deliver 100s of proofs by Friday and the finals in a short amount of time with each new client might not find it easy nor inexpensive...time wise.

    Me, if I work on 10 pictures it has been a productive week.


    Bob
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Which is great if you have only a few pictures to adjust. I imagine that most pros who need to deliver 100s of proofs by Friday and the finals in a short amount of time with each new client might not find it easy nor inexpensive...time wise.

    Me, if I work on 10 pictures it has been a productive week.


    Bob
    I would also add that although its possible to adjust M240 files in post processing to emulate or come close to the look of M9 files, that's not always the case in my opinion. At the end of the day, sometimes the differences are subtle or hard to detect and at other times preferences are obvious. Of course it's quite subjective and for some it goes the other way.

    It's like two cars that have very similar specs and differ mostly by the visceral feeling one gets while driving or pushing these cars in any number of ways. Some prefer one over the other but no matter how they are both driven, most will have a preference at the end of the day.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    The issue is that obviously Leica still is not able to treat their CMOS files the way that they look like coming from a CCD, or maybe they do not want.

    Take Fuji for example, they allow to apply film simulation either to their JPEGs in camera or RAWs in post processing via LR5. This leads to a bunch of very useful presets where results are hard to achieve in manual post processing. I assume that this could be done same way to achieve a certain CCD look.

    IMHO CCD is pretty dead for new (next generation) cameras and advances in CMOS are so enormous that I could not think of camera manufacturers just to go back to CCD and deal with all the issues resulting from that. So the way needs to be to tray files from CMOS in a way that they look like coming from a CCD. Leica should have achieved that goal already after almost 18 months since the introduction of the M. If they did not so far then this is their fault. And similar will be an issue then with the next generation S coming based on a CMOS sensor.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    The CCD vs. CMOS differences are true, but only apply if you sit back and do nothing to adjust the pictures.

    Otherwise simple post processing makes one look like the other. Its the mid-tone micro contrast that makes the most difference, adjusting that in Viveza or Color Efex Pro is an easy and less expensive way to make a CMOS file look like a CCD file. But I do appreciate that buying a new camera is more exciting.

    Steve
    I've had numerous discussion with M users that I highly respect that have both cameras (M9 and M240). Their opinion is that they are different and one cannot emulate the other no matter how much PP you do. I confirmed this myself with a demo M240 I used for two weeks.

    The color rendering is different … how the colors and tonal separations relate to each other is different.

    And that works both ways. If you prefer the M240 rendering then you could spend a month of Sundays trying to emulate it with a M9.

    My preference is for a camera to produce initial files that are close to my aesthetic preferences, not struggle with them to do so … be it one image, or one Thousand.

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Honestly, I don't care what the files from the M look like (as compared to CCD). I've got an M9 and MM and see no reason to "upgrade."

    I've got a Fuji X-T1 for that sort of stuff, which does it better up and down - and only cost a grand.
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Hi Marc,
    which raw converter did you use in your comparisons?
    And are you mainly talking about daylight or artificial light or both?
    I am not questioning anybodys findings about M9 vs M but I am trying to make a decision for myself between the two and my findings are not so clear in one direction.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi Marc,
    which raw converter did you use in your comparisons?
    And are you mainly talking about daylight or artificial light or both?
    I am not questioning anybodys findings about M9 vs M but I am trying to make a decision for myself between the two and my findings are not so clear in one direction.
    Every which way you can think of … daylight, tungsten, flash, strobes, mixed light, low-light, noon, twilight, sunset, moonlight, streetlights. I had the camera for 2 weeks and I wrung it out shooting the stuff I face all the time. But the most important thing was shooting people and how the M240 rendered skin.

    Had the latest firmware installed when I tried it.

    Loved the camera and wanted to like the files … but I didn't.

    I primarily use Lightroom, and I am NOT learning something else just for one camera … I can get what I want out of Lightroom with all my other cameras including the Leica S2 and my previous M9 and Hassey H4D/60, and all the CMOS Sonys.

    I have the need, the need for speed … and Lightroom is f a s t

    It is purely subjective … personally I do not like the way the M240 renders color out of the camera, and especially do not like the skin tones … I see people raving about some shot with the subjects sporting skin tones not found in nature … unless they were shot shortly after a nuclear denotation IMO, fixing that is hard work.

    Addendum: I think there are those who get nice images from the M240, even decent skin tones … I just couldn't without a lot of work, and I still see a lot of M240 shots that are just to "hot" for my tastes.

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 20th June 2014 at 11:21.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Every which way you can think of … daylight, tungsten, flash, strobes, mixed light, low-light, noon, twilight, sunset, moonlight, streetlights. I had the camera for 2 weeks and I wrung it out shooting the stuff I face all the time. But the most important thing was shooting people and how the M240 rendered skin.

    Had the latest firmware installed when I tried it.

    Loved the camera and wanted to like the files … but I didn't.

    I primarily use Lightroom, and I am NOT learning something else just for one camera … I can get what I want out of Lightroom with all my other cameras including the Leica S2 and my previous M9 and Hassey H4D/60, and all the CMOS Sonys.

    I have the need, the need for speed … and Lightroom is f a s t

    It is purely subjective … personally I do not like the way the M240 renders color out of the camera, and especially do not like the skin tones … I see people raving about some shot with the subjects sporting skin tones not found in nature … unless they were shot shortly after a nuclear denotation IMO, fixing that is hard work.

    Addendum: I think there are those who get nice images from the M240, even decent skin tones … I just couldn't without a lot of work, and I still see a lot of M240 shots that are just to "hot" for my tastes.

    - Marc
    Hi again,
    I also dislike using different converters but lately I have also used C1 again (follwoing some advise from a Leica guy) and it seems to work clearly better for M skin tones (and I think also slightly better for M9 over LR).
    I just wish there was a propper profile for the S so I could switch alltogether to c1.
    Tom

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    I primarily use Lightroom, and I am NOT learning something else just for one camera … I can get what I want out of Lightroom with all my other cameras including the Leica S2 and my previous M9 and Hassey H4D/60, and all the CMOS Sonys.
    Hi Marc
    Maybe this is the root cause of our disagreement. I use Aperture (and I'm not learning something else just for one camera). Actually, I also know LR quite well, and cordially dislike both the operation and the results. To me Aperture seems much less interventionist and much more natural.

    To me Aperture seems much less interventionist than LR (and don't even get me started on C1). Sure the files are noisier and less "sophisticated" out of Aperture, but that's why I like 'em!.

    As for a CCD based M240? Who is going to make the sensor? (certainly not Jenoptic!) it seems fantastically unlikely to me (but I really don't know).

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Marc
    Maybe this is the root cause
    As for a CCD based M240? Who is going to make the sensor? (certainly not Jenoptic!) it seems fantastically unlikely to me (but I really don't know).
    ...(but I really don't know)...all you legal guys note this disclaimer. Now as one not invited to the Leitz Park Inauguration I can only speculate on how deep Jono's contacts are.....

    But IMHO they dropped CCD so either cherish your old ride or learn the new new thing.....

    And as many of the older CCD based cameras are being off-loaded at relatively reasonable prices the choice for now is yours.

    Personally I love the CCD ... a bit rough but that fits with my personal esthetic of photographic presentation.

    Regards,

    Bob
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    random thought, but for the monochrome camera, would there be any difference between CCD and CMOS with respect to image quality?

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi again,
    I also dislike using different converters but lately I have also used C1 again (follwoing some advise from a Leica guy) and it seems to work clearly better for M skin tones (and I think also slightly better for M9 over LR).
    I just wish there was a propper profile for the S so I could switch alltogether to c1.
    Tom
    I created my own profiles for my "ugly" M-E to use with LR. I'm very satisfied with the results I'm getting.
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    Blog | Portfolio |

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Pandorf View Post
    I created my own profiles for my "ugly" M-E to use with LR. I'm very satisfied with the results I'm getting.
    Your posts reflect just how good the lowly M-E can be...

    I think I used the preview lever on my M6 a couple of times in 1982. Its absence on the M-E is not a loss and I do think personally that the gunmetal grey color is gorgeous...nothing like the pictures of the camera.

    My dealer, a fairly astute Leica historian, believes it will hold its value well due to its somewhat limited numbers...should one want to move from the camera.

    I doubt that any replacement will change its desirability or value.

    Bob

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi again,
    I also dislike using different converters but lately I have also used C1 again (follwoing some advise from a Leica guy) and it seems to work clearly better for M skin tones (and I think also slightly better for M9 over LR).
    I just wish there was a propper profile for the S so I could switch alltogether to c1.
    Tom
    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Your posts reflect just how good the lowly M-E can be...

    I think I used the preview lever on my M6 a couple of times in 1982. Its absence on the M-E is not a loss and I do think personally that the gunmetal grey color is gorgeous...nothing like the pictures of the camera.

    My dealer, a fairly astute Leica historian, believes it will hold its value well due to its somewhat limited numbers...should one want to move from the camera.

    I doubt that any replacement will change its desirability or value.

    Bob
    Thanks Bob. This is my first Leica and I couldn't be happier. No. A camera is perfect but I love its simplicity as it's forced me to slow down and helped enjoy my photography hobby more than ever.
    Duane Pandorf
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    As for a CCD based M240? Who is going to make the sensor? (certainly not Jenoptic!) it seems fantastically unlikely to me (but I really don't know).
    Jono, Are we certain that all the current M-E's and MM bodies currently being made are using sensors from Leica stockpiles of CCD sensors. I suspect they are still being manufactured and there is no reason the same basic sensor couldn't go into a M240 type body. Of course features like live view, video, focus peaking, etc. would be absent.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Your posts reflect just how good the lowly M-E can be...

    I think I used the preview lever on my M6 a couple of times in 1982. Its absence on the M-E is not a loss and I do think personally that the gunmetal grey color is gorgeous...nothing like the pictures of the camera.

    My dealer, a fairly astute Leica historian, believes it will hold its value well due to its somewhat limited numbers...should one want to move from the camera.

    I doubt that any replacement will change its desirability or value.

    Bob
    Bob, even though I'm good at visualizing and estimating framing when a certain focal length frame isn't present in the viewfinder, I miss not having a frame lever Maybe I'm in the minority.

    As for the M-E gunmetal color, my thoughts expressed in a previous thread sum up how I feel. In pictures, the color doesn't represent itself well, but as you said, in person the color is quite beautiful in a elegant understated way.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Take Fuji for example, they allow to apply film simulation either to their JPEGs in camera or RAWs in post processing via LR5. This leads to a bunch of very useful presets where results are hard to achieve in manual post processing. I assume that this could be done same way to achieve a certain CCD look.
    One of the biggest changes in LR's embrace of the X-Trans line of cameras was the addition of these presets. I loved the look of JPGs coming out if my X-Pro 1 so much that for a time, I stopped shooting RAW.

    Leica could do this and it could be built into Lightoom.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Pandorf View Post
    I created my own profiles for my "ugly" M-E to use with LR. I'm very satisfied with the results I'm getting.
    I also habe been satisfied with LR for the M9. It just happened that I checked out LR because of the new M and also processed soe M9 files and found them to come out really nice.
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Jono, Are we certain that all the current M-E's and MM bodies currently being made are using sensors from Leica stockpiles of CCD sensors. I suspect they are still being manufactured and there is no reason the same basic sensor couldn't go into a M240 type body. Of course features like live view, video, focus peaking, etc. would be absent.

    Dave (D&A)
    Hi there Dave
    I don't know where the current MM and ME sensors are coming from, or how infinite the supply might be......... But why would you want to put it into an M240type body? I can see why you might want to put an M240 type shutter and LCD into an M9 type body, but I think it would take a redesign from scratch.

    Just take a step back: by going back to a lower res CCD with less dynamic range and out of house firmware would be:
    1. a real step backward
    2. a virtual admission that the M was a mistake

    What company would do such a suicidal move..........and then make it cheap (ME)

    Look, if they really agreed that a CCD was the right way (which I'm pretty sure they don't), surely they'd use a different and better one, develop it in house and make it a premium product..... Not spend lots of money on changing the electronics and then sell it as entry level!

    All the best

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi there Dave
    I don't know where the current MM and ME sensors are coming from, or how infinite the supply might be......... But why would you want to put it into an M240type body? I can see why you might want to put an M240 type shutter and LCD into an M9 type body, but I think it would take a redesign from scratch.

    Just take a step back: by going back to a lower res CCD with less dynamic range and out of house firmware would be:
    1. a real step backward
    2. a virtual admission that the M was a mistake

    What company would do such a suicidal move..........and then make it cheap (ME)

    Look, if they really agreed that a CCD was the right way (which I'm pretty sure they don't), surely they'd use a different and better one, develop it in house and make it a premium product..... Not spend lots of money on changing the electronics and then sell it as entry level!

    All the best
    Jono, thank you for your thoughtful response. There is a sizable contingent of M digital users that prefer the output of thr M9 over thr M240 for a variety of reasons. Whether it's solely due to use of a CCD sensor or a combination of factors where the CCD plays a supporting role has been hotly debated on the forums. These M9 users though love the LCD, shutter, rangefinder and a host of other features that the M240 has and wish those that can be supported by the M9 sensor, be incorporated in a M240 type body. Whether this is accomplished in a modification of the current M9 body, incorporating thr M9 as nor in a M240 type body or simply designing a newly designed body would probably all reach the design objective of giving M9 users what they'd like. The output of the current M9 but in a more up to date body with the features I mentioned above.

    That doesn't preclude the possibility of a newly designed CCD vs. Using the current one. I don't believe if done that it implies that Leica made a mistake utilizing a CMOS sensor in the M240. It was the only way to currently achieve high ISO performance, live view, focus peaking and a other perforce characteristics that aren't supported by CCD.

    Ofifering users a choice of bodies with different sensors is simply providing end users with choices for their needs and desired output. It's simply product line diversification. Just because Nikon comes out with point and shoot cameras doesn't mean their SLR line is a failure.

    This isn't unique to the M9 as other cameras with CCD output are also favored by some others over similar models utilizing CMOS sensors. It's just another alternative...not better nor worse, just differemt. By the way my favorite flavor of ice cream is Mint Chip ice cream but even I've come to realize others might prefer differently, even though I know the superiority of my preferred flavor. .

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Jono, thank you for your thoughtful response. There is a sizable contingent of M digital users that prefer the output of thr M9 over thr M240 for a variety of reasons. )
    Hi Dave
    I understand that this is the case. Just as there was a sizeable number of digital M users who preferred the output of the M8 to the M9. But I'm not seeing people who actually use the M complaining, only people who are still using their M9s.

    For instance, I have a great deal of respect for Marc, but with that respect, it's worth mentioning that it took him over a year to decide he liked the S2, and he only gave the M two weeks. Look at the portrait work of young photographers like Sarah Lee and tell me that the colour is wrong!

    I'm not going to get into the CCD CMOS debate, as it's so subjective as to be meaningless. What I will say is that there are a number of excellent young photojournalists using the new M, and I don't see too many complaints about the colour. When I published shots from the MM I was crucified because they looked flat. The M has a lot more dynamic range than the M9, which means that out of camera shots are inevitably lacking the zing. The same is true of the MM.

    However, were Leica to revamp the electronics of the old sensor to work in the new body, then it would definitely look different from the M9, no question.

    If you want a camera which takes images like the M9, then you have one. You won't get another one! No, not even were Leica to bring out an M with a CCD, it would still be different.

    I can talk about this, because I have absolutely no knowledge of this theoretically cheap new M with a CCD, so I'm breaking no confidences. But I would think that a little common sense would tell you that it is neither likely, nor the solution to nostalgic (and perfectly acceptable) preferences for the M9.

    All the best

    PS. Maybe Leica will be convinced by the old guard who prefer a CCD (I doubt it, but I don't know). But if they are, it will be with a brand new camera, not an entry level model like the ME!

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Could it be that Leica is really trying to solve a production problem ? Don t they need Trusense sensors for quite sometime into the future to support the m8,m9,mm and S2 products …..it is helpful if they have some usage of the sensors in current product offerings .

    At the same time haven t they had big problems with the spare parts for the m8,m9,mm LCD …..and we all know what will happen to the batteries availability overtime ……did you own a DMR ?

    The biggest question comes regarding the battery and its impact on the circuitry ….can they really put an M240 battery into an ME body ? or is it a better choice to move the CCD chip to the M240 body .

    If they do this for the ME can the MM be far behind ….I think you have to look to what problem they are trying to solve . My guess its problems with the low volume suppliers of components for the M8,M9 and MM that is the driving this.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post

    If they do this for the ME can the MM be far behind ….I think you have to look to what problem they are trying to solve . My guess its problems with the low volume suppliers of components for the M8,M9 and MM that is the driving this.
    Glen, I think you have to expect that this story is a load of rubbish!it doesn't stack up in any direction, either technically or commercially. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so!

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Dave
    I understand that this is the case. Just as there was a sizeable number of digital M users who preferred the output of the M8 to the M9. But I'm not seeing people who actually use the M complaining, only people who are still using their M9s.

    For instance, I have a great deal of respect for Marc, but with that respect, it's worth mentioning that it took him over a year to decide he liked the S2, and he only gave the M two weeks. Look at the portrait work of young photographers like Sarah Lee and tell me that the colour is wrong!

    I'm not going to get into the CCD CMOS debate, as it's so subjective as to be meaningless. What I will say is that there are a number of excellent young photojournalists using the new M, and I don't see too many complaints about the colour. When I published shots from the MM I was crucified because they looked flat. The M has a lot more dynamic range than the M9, which means that out of camera shots are inevitably lacking the zing. The same is true of the MM.

    However, were Leica to revamp the electronics of the old sensor to work in the new body, then it would definitely look different from the M9, no question.

    If you want a camera which takes images like the M9, then you have one. You won't get another one! No, not even were Leica to bring out an M with a CCD, it would still be different.

    I can talk about this, because I have absolutely no knowledge of this theoretically cheap new M with a CCD, so I'm breaking no confidences. But I would think that a little common sense would tell you that it is neither likely, nor the solution to nostalgic (and perfectly acceptable) preferences for the M9.

    All the best

    PS. Maybe Leica will be convinced by the old guard who prefer a CCD (I doubt it, but I don't know). But if they are, it will be with a brand new camera, not an entry level model like the ME!
    Jono, FYI ... I initially tried the S2 for 1/2 day while in Florida and determined that it had great promise but wasn't ready for prime time yet, not to mention that there were only two lenses available at the time (S-70mm and S-180mm). I waited a year to see how things went. So implying that I used the S2 camera for a year before "liking it" is not correct.

    I did not like what I was initially seeing from the M240, waited for over a year, then worked with one for two weeks ... which confirmed I didn't like what I was seeing. I didn't need a year to determine that.

    It is not a matter of "right or wrong," "old guard verses new guard," or any such thing.

    It is about preferences and choices ... and how much one has to fiddle with images to obtain the results one prefers. I do not question that others have met their own criteria with the M240, however their eye is not my eye ... nor a number of others that seem to prefer the M9 look and feel over that of the M240. I am convinced that the M9 produced unique imagery that meshed well with its' lenses ... and conversely feel the M240 is homogeneous with a lot of other CMOS based cameras ... but, fortunately, it is still unique because it is a rangefinder.

    Personally I think it is wishful thinking regarding a CCD based M240 type camera. I'd be nice, but Leica has clearly stated that CMOS is the future, and acted accordingly. At sometime in future we all will have to "like it or lump it," if we want to work with a rangefinder. In the meantime ...

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Glen, I think you have to expect that this story is a load of rubbish!it doesn't stack up in any direction, either technically or commercially. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so!
    Jono

    Sorry I don t understand your point of view ?

    Just to go back a bit ….no one followed the logic of the Mono introduction . Lets look at some facts on that one as a reference . (1) sales of the M9P had dropped off the cliff …they were in stock everywhere and they were priced even higher than the M9 ……(2) the M240 and the new plant(s) were both behind schedule …….so what was Leica going to sell and keep the plant loaded .

    The Mono could be made with many of the existing components and because of an expected surge in demand (maybe for short period of time ) would nicely load the existing production facilities .

    It was IMHO a brilliant solution to a significant business problem and allowed time to transition to the M240 . It had absolutely nothing to do with the desire to produce a B&W solution . Sounds good and was packaged nicely by marketing .

    I don t for a minute think Leica needs an ME (CCD) camera in the product line for any other reason but to continue their supply of sensors for maintenance and repair . The most straight forward approach would be to keep making the existing ME(CCD) in small batches a few times a year and do the same with the Mono. But they also have problems with several other component suppliers for the original digital M platform .

    I would completely agree that its seems far fetched to believe that the classic digital M body (M8,M9,Mono) could be modified in a way to accept the M240 battery and a new LCD . If it could ..how could we justify the expense over such a low volume of product ?

    It also seems a stretch to believe that Leica can justify moving the entire CCD platform to the M240 body . This would however have some long term benefits if possible .

    I guess I agree …the whole proposition seems like a bridge too far . From a product/technology perspective appears unlikely . Yet…….

    How big a problem do you think it will be when Leica can t supply CCD sensor replacements ?

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    It's like two cars that have very similar specs and differ mostly by the visceral feeling one gets while driving or pushing these cars in any number of ways. Some prefer one over the other but no matter how they are both driven, most will have a preference at the end of the day.

    Dave (D&A)
    Are you sating the M240 is back-heavy and understeers?

    I find it quite nicely balanced with precise handling, with just a hint of oversteer in highlights if pushed over the limits. The M9 was more like a old time 911 Porsche, nasty handling at the limits when pushed too hard.

    That said, with 911's many people still vouch for the air cooled models of old time, due to feeling, even when they are so clearly beaten by modern technology on the track.

    //Juha

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    Are you sating the M240 is back-heavy and understeers?

    I find it quite nicely balanced with precise handling, with just a hint of oversteer in highlights if pushed over the limits. The M9 was more like a old time 911 Porsche, nasty handling at the limits when pushed too hard.

    That said, with 911's many people still vouch for the air cooled models of old time, due to feeling, even when they are so clearly beaten by modern technology on the track.

    //Juha
    Excellent Juha

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    Jono

    Sorry I don t understand your point of view ?

    Just to go back a bit ….no one followed the logic of the Mono introduction . Lets look at some facts on that one as a reference . (1) sales of the M9P had dropped off the cliff …they were in stock everywhere and they were priced even higher than the M9 ……(2) the M240 and the new plant(s) were both behind schedule …….so what was Leica going to sell and keep the plant loaded .

    The Mono could be made with many of the existing components and because of an expected surge in demand (maybe for short period of time ) would nicely load the existing production facilities .

    It was IMHO a brilliant solution to a significant business problem and allowed time to transition to the M240 . It had absolutely nothing to do with the desire to produce a B&W solution . Sounds good and was packaged nicely by marketing .
    Well Roger - I absolutely followed the logic of the MM - I was involved with discussions about it, and had a really early prototype to test - I always thought it would sell. . . . .

    You should be careful making assumptions about sales of different cameras however - there is a lot of 'knowledge' about the net, but Leica don't publish these figures, so it's pretty much all hearsay.

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    I don t for a minute think Leica needs an ME (CCD) camera in the product line for any other reason but to continue their supply of sensors for maintenance and repair . The most straight forward approach would be to keep making the existing ME(CCD) in small batches a few times a year and do the same with the Mono. But they also have problems with several other component suppliers for the original digital M platform .
    Actually, as far as I'm aware, the ME has been a real success, so the principle was obviously a good one .

    But I don't think your logic stacks up here - if they have to redesign because of other supply issues, then it won't really solve the problem for older cameras . . . but will make a new potential problem for the newer cameras!

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post

    I would completely agree that its seems far fetched to believe that the classic digital M body (M8,M9,Mono) could be modified in a way to accept the M240 battery and a new LCD . If it could ..how could we justify the expense over such a low volume of product ?

    It also seems a stretch to believe that Leica can justify moving the entire CCD platform to the M240 body . This would however have some long term benefits if possible .

    I guess I agree …the whole proposition seems like a bridge too far . From a product/technology perspective appears unlikely . Yet…….
    Well, Yet nothing - but it seems to me that we agree with each other entirely, except that you think they might do it and I'm pretty sure they won't (I certainly agree that some people would like it).

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    How big a problem do you think it will be when Leica can t supply CCD sensor replacements ?
    Well, I hope that they're stockpiling enough whilst they're still available, but I don't think producing another camera which uses them really solves the problem, (at best) it just pushes it forwards a bit.

    all the best

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    Are you sating the M240 is back-heavy and understeers?

    I find it quite nicely balanced with precise handling, with just a hint of oversteer in highlights if pushed over the limits. The M9 was more like a old time 911 Porsche, nasty handling at the limits when pushed too hard.

    That said, with 911's many people still vouch for the air cooled models of old time, due to feeling, even when they are so clearly beaten by modern technology on the track.

    //Juha
    Juha,

    That's exactly my point! Each group has it's preference...whether we're talking about M9 vs. M240 or current Porsche vs. 911's. There is no right or wrong, just what feels right to each particular user. Superiority by the numbers also doesn't always imply that one model is superior to another. Every day I see commercials on TV showing lowly brand "X" car having more truck space than a Mercedes and lowly brand "Y" car having better 0-60mph acceleration than that Mercedes (and so on)...yet few given a choice would pick brand "X", "Y" or "Z" based that these brands are superior by the numbers to a Porsche or a Mercedes in a number of areas. Each will pick the model that suits their needs and works best for their intended use. Again its not a question of which is superior, it's a question of which is superior for the intended users needs and desires.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 26th June 2014 at 09:28.

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Jono

    To maintain a supply of CCD sensors Leica must commit to specific quantities . The larger the batch(order) the lower the per sensor cost . Since Leica can control when and if they make CCD bodies …they can smooth the demand for sensors between spare parts and new production .

    If demand they stop making CCD bodies ….they will have to predict spare parts demand over a far long lead time ..when the make an order . Apologies if this is getting to much into supply chain management . Its not that Trusense can t make the sensors ..its that Leica does t want to order them in large batches …so they forecast (guess) and sometimes run out .

    I have no idea what Leica will do …but I am sure it will be based on production and supply chain considerations …and very little to do with what the market place is asking for .

    FYI it is easy to estimate Leica production and sales from the many sources of available information . When the M8 and M9 where released I checked my estimates with people at Leica that absolutely know the production rates and I was always close enough .

    Enough on this subject I think .

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Jono, Are we certain that all the current M-E's and MM bodies currently being made are using sensors from Leica stockpiles of CCD sensors. I suspect they are still being manufactured and there is no reason the same basic sensor couldn't go into a M240 type body. Of course features like live view, video, focus peaking, etc. would be absent.

    Dave (D&A)
    I'm sure that Leica was smart enought to have a contract with Kodak/
    Truesense to ensure continued production for a stated period of time, and does not rely on stockpiling.
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    I'm sure that Leica was smart enought to have a contract with Kodak/
    Truesense to ensure continued production for a stated period of time, and does not rely on stockpiling.
    I would agree and that's why I feel something may be done with the Truesense CCD Sensors in a new or updated body.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    I would agree and that's why I feel something may be done with the Truesense CCD Sensors in a new or updated body.

    Dave (D&A)
    Dave, as a Leica M-E user and am very happy with its output, I don't think there's a chance in, you know where, that Leica will release a new CCD M camera.

    I think the writing on the wall will be the update to the S2. If it goes CMOS definitely end of story.

    Now that the latest M firmware has been released today, many of the complaints I would have with the camera have been solved. The major one being able to deactivate the Movie button! Second is the Auto ISO in M mode.

    Other than that, I would think that Leica's current agreement with their CMOS manufacturer will enable them to keep their costs much lower than trying to please a few of us that still have a CCD based M.

    Just my opinion and I could be wrong but I don't think it will ever happen.
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    Re: Leica CCD Based M240? Maybe, just maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Pandorf View Post
    Dave, as a Leica M-E user and am very happy with its output, I don't think there's a chance in, you know where, that Leica will release a new CCD M camera.

    I think the writing on the wall will be the update to the S2. If it goes CMOS definitely end of story.

    Now that the latest M firmware has been released today, many of the complaints I would have with the camera have been solved. The major one being able to deactivate the Movie button! Second is the Auto ISO in M mode.

    Other than that, I would think that Leica's current agreement with their CMOS manufacturer will enable them to keep their costs much lower than trying to please a few of us that still have a CCD based M.

    Just my opinion and I could be wrong but I don't think it will ever happen.
    Duane, you're probably right. I wasn't thinking of a whole, newly designed CCD sensor body but more in line with an update/upgrade to the exisiting M-E. Maybe better rear LCD, quieter shutter ala M240 and a number of desirable M240 features that would transfer easily to a M-E based body.

    Again something tells me we are not at the end of the line with regards to Leica utilizing CCD for at least one body for the foreseeable future.

    Dave (D&A)

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