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Thread: New Leica X (Typ 113)

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    New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Hi There
    Nobody seems to have mentioned this new camera from Leica - but in my opinion it's pretty significant as a compact APS-c camera with the fastest lens in the class and consistent manual controls. It also has manual focus with a proper distance scale.

    In form and function it's just like the X-Vario, except that it has a fast f1.7 35mm (equivalent lens).

    I've done a small article on my website in case you're interested.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There
    Nobody seems to have mentioned this new camera from Leica - but in my opinion it's pretty significant as a compact APS-c camera with the fastest lens in the class and consistent manual controls. It also has manual focus with a proper distance scale.

    In form and function it's just like the X-Vario, except that it has a fast f1.7 35mm (equivalent lens).

    I've done a small article on my website in case you're interested.
    Link?

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Thank you Bob

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There

    I've done a small article on my website in case you're interested.
    Nice write-up and the pictures are up to your standard stellar color contrast perspective and content presentation.

    Did you use Aperture or something else...or just OOC JPGs as the EXIF suggests sRGB.

    So now DLux 4 K or the Leica X.....

    Do hope you all do not have to revise the Union Jack!

    Bob
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Nice lens, great color.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    How is the performance of the lens when shooting wide open?

    I parted with the Fuji X100s because the lens is very soft when shooting wide open and relatively close.

    I was hoping that the X 113 could improve on that...?

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Looks nice, Jono!

    The new EVF would certainly be a plus, along with the new lens. Still have my X2 though, not sure that I really want to keep it or buy something as replacement at the moment.

    Too many cameras...!

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    As usual, an informative intro to the cam for the prospective user, supported by excellent imagery.

    Best regards to you and yours.
    koffee & kamera
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    How is the performance of the lens when shooting wide open?

    I parted with the Fuji X100s because the lens is very soft when shooting wide open and relatively close.

    I was hoping that the X 113 could improve on that...?
    HI There
    As I mention in the review, Leica have restricted the Aperture to f2.8 for very close shooting to keep the image quality up to their standards.

    Apart from this I've found the quality at f1.7 to be great - the bokeh is excellent and the focus is fine.

    all the best

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Looks really great, thanks for the report Jono!

    As Godfrey said - too many cameras

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Thanks for this Jono! Looks very tempting. Can you confirm that the lens has filter threads? In bright light I would hope to be able to mount an nd filter since the shutter speed only goes to 1/2000. Maybe with the base iso being 100 it is not so much of an issue.
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    I handled it at Photokina and think its a very nice camera.
    If I didnt have a M (and T) I might jump on it.
    I still love the x2 for its small pockable size though.
    Too bad that we have to deal with different EVF-connections now.
    For some people the combo X-Vario + new X could be appealing, and being able to use the same viewfinder would be nice.
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazwell View Post
    Thanks for this Jono! Looks very tempting. Can you confirm that the lens has filter threads? In bright light I would hope to be able to mount an nd filter since the shutter speed only goes to 1/2000. Maybe with the base iso being 100 it is not so much of an issue.
    Hi There
    Yes - there are filter threads (not sure what size though).

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Too bad that we have to deal with different EVF-connections now.
    For some people the combo X-Vario + new X could be appealing, and being able to use the same viewfinder would be nice.
    Hi Tom
    I couldn't agree more - but the new attachment and EVF are so much of an improvement. The answer really would be to produce a revampted X-Vario with the new EVF attachment rather than hampering the new camera with the older one.

    At least it also works with the T.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Hi Jono,

    Nice read! I am in fact very interested in the camera, and have in the past owned the X1 and the X2, hoping each would be more responsive, so perhaps you can help me here!

    While I enjoyed the X2 more than the X1, the AF was still a tad too slow, how much better is the Type 113 in this regard? Another thing I have always enjoyed with Leica, were the colors, and I was surprised how good the IQ from the X2 was, having also owned the M9 in the past.

    Also, how consistent would you say is the WB in various indoor lighting conditions, now with the faster lens, I would think shooting indoors in lower light will be less of a problem. So far a the few online reviewers of the camera chooses to display half the images in B&W, which makes me wonder, if this was a preference or if there is something off about the color?

    Thanks in advance!
    Po
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Hi Jono,

    Nice read! I am in fact very interested in the camera, and have in the past owned the X1 and the X2, hoping each would be more responsive, so perhaps you can help me here!

    While I enjoyed the X2 more than the X1, the AF was still a tad too slow, how much better is the Type 113 in this regard? Another thing I have always enjoyed with Leica, were the colors, and I was surprised how good the IQ from the X2 was, having also owned the M9 in the past.

    Also, how consistent would you say is the WB in various indoor lighting conditions, now with the faster lens, I would think shooting indoors in lower light will be less of a problem. So far a the few online reviewers of the camera chooses to display half the images in B&W, which makes me wonder, if this was a preference or if there is something off about the color?

    Thanks in advance!
    Po
    I also would be interested how the speed und IQ compare to the T.

    I know there are some people who believe the "T" not to be a system for "photographers" but after owning it for some time now I feel it works very well for me.
    I hope they will not have the strategy to develop the X for the "series" photographers and the "T" for "style".

    If I see the size of the new X I wonder if it would not make sense to offer a X-body with T-bajonet/interchangable lenses.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Hi Jono,

    Nice read! I am in fact very interested in the camera, and have in the past owned the X1 and the X2, hoping each would be more responsive, so perhaps you can help me here!
    Hi there Po
    unfortunately I gave my X2 to my daughter in law, so it hasn't been possible to do a detailed comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post

    While I enjoyed the X2 more than the X1, the AF was still a tad too slow, how much better is the Type 113 in this regard? Another thing I have always enjoyed with Leica, were the colors, and I was surprised how good the IQ from the X2 was, having also owned the M9 in the past.
    Well, I've found the AF to be quite good and quick at normal distances (1.5 to 20 metres). closer than that it's a bit hit and miss, and I've also found some problem with AF at infinity (but the X is not alone here). On the other hand, shooting at infinity it's only a 1/10 cm twist to get it to infinity focus, so it's a case of technique rather than a problem. For close up (almost macro) it's good to use the manual focus as well, and of course, the manual focus is MUCH better than on the X2 [/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by pophoto View Post
    Also, how consistent would you say is the WB in various indoor lighting conditions, now with the faster lens, I would think shooting indoors in lower light will be less of a problem. So far a the few online reviewers of the camera chooses to display half the images in B&W, which makes me wonder, if this was a preference or if there is something off about the color?

    Thanks in advance!
    Po
    I've not had any problems with the WB - however, as a rider to that, I normally shoot with sunny (daylight) WB in daylight, and most of the testing has been done in an English summer, so not too much indoor work.

    I guess this doesn't help much - except that you can understand that I've not had a problem with your concerns!

    All the best
    Jono

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Hi Tom
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I also would be interested how the speed und IQ compare to the T.
    I'd say that the speed is pretty equivalent to the T, both in terms of AF and processing.
    However, the time switching from LCD to EVF (and particularly turn on time with your eye on the EVF ) seems to be faster than the T (even with the new firmware).
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I know there are some people who believe the "T" not to be a system for "photographers" but after owning it for some time now I feel it works very well for me.
    I hope they will not have the strategy to develop the X for the "series" photographers and the "T" for "style".
    I really don't think the "style" is the ruling philosophy of the T - talking to Leica about it they're really hoping to develop a sophisticated system around the concept (witness the new lenses arriving). Style and Content are not mutually exclusive!
    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    If I see the size of the new X I wonder if it would not make sense to offer a X-body with T-bajonet/interchangable lenses.
    I don't think it would work - I think the whole point is the advantage of being able to design a lens/sensor combination as a one-off.

    Of course, they might introduce a T mount camera with controls like the X (quite a different thing . . . or possibly exactly the same thing )

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Interesting article, nice pictures. I was intrigued to see that AF for macro work is a challenge, even with the aperture limited to f/2.8 to help out. (actually, focus at 1.7, take pictures at 2.8 would be a good strategy working close -- does it do that?) My reference is the Ricoh GR, with an APS-C chip and 28 mm-eff focal length, also f/2.8. The previous GR-D's, with their little image chips, were great at macro, perfect for running off flower and eBay product shots. The GR, however, sucks a bit at macro with AF. Maybe it is just really hard to do this at APS-C size with a pocketable lens.

    Good to see Scarlett toddling about with only the slightest skyhook to help out.

    regards,

    scott

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Thinking about Jono's excellent article on the new X inspired me to pull out my X2 and do a little shooting with it yesterday. I then realized that there wasn't a general purpose "Fun with..." picture thread for the Leica X cameras, so I created one.

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/51...ll-models.html

    Now there's a place for all Leica X photos to be showcased. Please post some of yours!

    Walking and shooting with the X2 again for the first time in a while, I'm again amazed at how good this "digital Barnack" can be. It lacks a bit on responsiveness, but the photo quality it makes is well worth it. I can only imagine that the new X with its better EVF option and faster lens will be similarly or even more delightful.

    I like shooting with it much as I did yesterday: fitted with a 35mm optical viewfinder, mostly at f/5.6-f/8, image processing set to B&W contrasty + raw. I switch back and forth between AF and MF, focusing by zone. It's a light, small, easy to live with camera with simple, direct controls.

    Looking at the photos I made yesterday, I can't really say that I feel I need to upgrade. Which is good ... It helps me save my money for even GASsier extravagances. :-)

    G

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Nice write-up and the pictures are up to your standard stellar color contrast perspective and content presentation.

    Did you use Aperture or something else...or just OOC JPGs as the EXIF suggests sRGB.

    So now DLux 4 K or the Leica X.....

    Do hope you all do not have to revise the Union Jack!

    Bob
    Hi Bob
    Sorry, I missed this one.
    I am using Aperture (just too much faff to use LR). I'm also using Yosemite, and the RAW support for the X (and the X-Vario and the T) has gone from:

    Mavericks - nothing
    Yosemite beta 1 - full support
    Yosemite beta 2 - support for images under 1600 ISO
    Yosemite beta 3 - no support

    so it's a mixture - for the OOC jpgs I've been reducing the sharpness (contrast is quite low anyway) and making certain not to over-expose.

    . . . . . So - roll on the D-Lux 4 - I'd love to have a go with one (but I haven't yet!).

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I was intrigued to see that AF for macro work is a challenge, even with the aperture limited to f/2.8 to help out. (actually, focus at 1.7, take pictures at 2.8 would be a good strategy working close -- does it do that?)
    Interesting point that - it's rather hard to tell, but I guess it probably does.

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    My reference is the Ricoh GR, with an APS-C chip and 28 mm-eff focal length, also f/2.8. The previous GR-D's, with their little image chips, were great at macro, perfect for running off flower and eBay product shots. The GR, however, sucks a bit at macro with AF. Maybe it is just really hard to do this at APS-C size with a pocketable lens.
    Seems likely - sucks would definitely be an overstatement, it's usually quite good, but sometimes slow to twig that you're focusing on something close - if you go to manual focus - down to the closest, then back to AF it seems to get the point
    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Good to see Scarlett toddling about with only the slightest skyhook to help out.
    Thanks Scott - she's doing great - now she can manage across a room with no help (as long as she doesn't think too hard).

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    Re: Don't forget the V-Lux [typ 114]

    Which Jono was shooting at the same time over the past summer. See his article at Leica V-Lux (Typ 114) . Has anyone used this model (or its Panasonic cousin)?

    scott
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ...
    I am using Aperture (just too much faff to use LR)
    ...
    Jono,

    I'm just curious as to why every mention you make of Aperture has to include a negative comment about Lightroom. I feel the same way about Aperture that you do about Lightroom, but both work pretty darn well. I see no point to saying, "... I used Lightroom to process my photos, rather than dealing with all the faff about the now-no-longer-in-development Aperture, soon to be discontinued and made unavailable, ..."

    Seems a bit over the top. :-)

    G

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Jono,

    I'm just curious as to why every mention you make of Aperture has to include a negative comment about Lightroom. I feel the same way about Aperture that you do about Lightroom, but both work pretty darn well. I see no point to saying, "... I used Lightroom to process my photos, rather than dealing with all the faff about the now-no-longer-in-development Aperture, soon to be discontinued and made unavailable, ..."

    Seems a bit over the top. :-)

    G
    Only because if I don't say something then people always say "why don't you use Lightroom?

    It's not meant as a criticism of Lightroom, just that I don't like it!

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Jono,

    I'm just curious as to why every mention you make of Aperture has to include a negative comment about Lightroom. I feel the same way about Aperture that you do about Lightroom, but both work pretty darn well. I see no point to saying, "... I used Lightroom to process my photos, rather than dealing with all the faff about the now-no-longer-in-development Aperture, soon to be discontinued and made unavailable, ..."

    Seems a bit over the top. :-)

    G
    Perhaps this deserves a longer answer.

    I hope you accept the reason for mentioning it. . . . . but actually, the 'faffing about' remark was nothing to do with any opinion of Lightroom. It was because I have a 50,000 image Aperture library, and all my workflow hinges around it.

    Changing this worfklow for a new camera is really not a sensible decision, so I don't - it doesn't actually reflect on Lightroom at all (which I am very conversant with).

    As far as non-development of Aperture is concerned. I hear you, but it will work properly at least until Yosemite is replaced (2 years?), and RAW updates will continue (as this is core support) - in fact, it might easily improve.

    Apple have said that they want to start from scratch with a new program with lots of new features . . . and that there will be a migration for Aperture libraries (which at least implies that it will be capable of doing what Aperture does). The new architecture will allow other developers access, so it's reasonable to hope that Silver efex pro etc will be usable.

    So although it was tempting to through the baby out with the bathwater and transfer the whole lot to Lightroom, that represents a great deal of work - maybe I'll have to do it in two years, but it won't be any harder then than now (might be easier as lots of others will have tried too). On the other hand, perhaps Photos will actually be really good - in which case bailing out now would require another time consuming transfer back again.

    I'm staying put with Aperture until either 1. Yosemite is replaced and Aperture no longer supported or 2. Photos comes of age, in which case I'll use that.

    Does that make sense?

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Only because if I don't say something then people always say "why don't you use Lightroom?

    It's not meant as a criticism of Lightroom, just that I don't like it!
    I am ambivalent WRT Aperture and Lightroom. End of the day I find Aperture has the far more advanced cataloging and archiving system while LR is better in RAW development.

    I am using both and simply will continue to use Aperture for import as well as archiving and then as soon as everything is in perfect order for me I am using LR.

    Let's wait and see what the new Photo in Yosemite will look like ......

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Only because if I don't say something then people always say "why don't you use Lightroom?

    It's not meant as a criticism of Lightroom, just that I don't like it!
    When you repeat something over and over again, it sure sounds like you're disparaging it. I understand you might not intend it to be that way, but that's how it reads.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Perhaps this deserves a longer answer.

    I hope you accept the reason for mentioning it. . . . . but actually, the 'faffing about' remark was nothing to do with any opinion of Lightroom. It was because I have a 50,000 image Aperture library, and all my workflow hinges around it.

    Changing this worfklow for a new camera is really not a sensible decision, so I don't - it doesn't actually reflect on Lightroom at all (which I am very conversant with).
    Oh, I understand completely! One of the reasons I cannot get on with the Fuji X cameras is that I find how most raw converters treat their raw data to be really awful, and the one or two that do a passingly good job I dislike using. I have too many cameras and different kinds of raw files to change my workflow just to accommodate one manufacturer's sensor weirdness. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    As far as non-development of Aperture is concerned. I hear you, but it will work properly at least until Yosemite is replaced (2 years?), and RAW updates will continue (as this is core support) - in fact, it might easily improve.

    Apple have said that they want to start from scratch with a new program with lots of new features . . . and that there will be a migration for Aperture libraries (which at least implies that it will be capable of doing what Aperture does). The new architecture will allow other developers access, so it's reasonable to hope that Silver efex pro etc will be usable.

    So although it was tempting to through the baby out with the bathwater and transfer the whole lot to Lightroom, that represents a great deal of work - maybe I'll have to do it in two years, but it won't be any harder then than now (might be easier as lots of others will have tried too). On the other hand, perhaps Photos will actually be really good - in which case bailing out now would require another time consuming transfer back again.

    I'm staying put with Aperture until either 1. Yosemite is replaced and Aperture no longer supported or 2. Photos comes of age, in which case I'll use that.
    I'm well aware of the Aperture end-of-life cycle you are thinking about. I suspect, though, that once Photos is out, it will end-of-life rather more quickly.

    I've never liked the UI and design model for either iPhoto or Aperture ... I find it clumsy and overly complicated ... but that's just my personal take on having tried to use it for the past half decade. I still have a current copy,

    I'm hoping (and talking to the engineers on the project about it—remember, I have some close connection with Apple engineering... ;-) that the new Photos app will be different, will be something that works in a way that I can work with. Because there's a lot of goodness in the integrated way that Apple's apps work together.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Does that make sense?
    Your position, your likes and dislikes, and the curve of your useage do make sense. But I don't think you have to repeat your opinion of Lightroom with every mention of Aperture. For those that ask you "Why don't you use Lightroom?" ... I'd just ignore the question. It's silliness to ask that when you're responding to the simple question, "What do you use to process the image files?"

    And now back to the regularly scheduled Leica X (Type 113) discussion. :-)

    G
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    Re: Raw File Rendering

    I stick to Capture One for everything from a Phase One back (nice old P45+) to the Leica m240, Olympus 5-series, and Ricoh GR or GR-D. It seems the only files they won't handle are the Leica S for some reason... If you want database (I don't), they've got database. They apparently do the best job on Fuji's Bayer-on-crack matrix, too. Runs almost identically on Mac and PC now. They can do local corrections for more things than I worry about, and their shadow slider is awesome. At intervals when things are about to change, as was true recently, they run very big beta tests, so you can get a word in sometimes.

    scott
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    I have experimented over the last years and lately with LR,C1,aparture and DXO.
    In the end I allways get bacl to LR. OK, I am not experienced with aparture, but I might have looked into it deeper if I saw a big difference in raw conversion. I didnt-even though I liked the color and WB options.
    Same for C1-images look slightly sharper, and colors different for Leica M but not allways better, different than LR.
    LR has the advantage that it supports nearly all cameras (all that I own), often has several profiles for one camera and I believe the output is very consistent. No surprizes.
    If I had a phase back I would probably just use C1.
    DXO I own because I like to be able to browse through images without having to import them, but the raw conversion seems somewhat soft to me.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    I was at the camera shop yesterday and took a few moments to look at the Leicas. They didn't have the new X in yet, but they had an MP, an M Type 240, an X Vario, and a T with EVF. I had my X2 with me.

    The the MP and X Vario, aside from the lens, are so close in overall size, shape, and feel ... I suspect the X Type 113 is even closer with the shorter lens. The feel and size is one notch nicer on the X Vario than the X2 ... the X2 feels more like a "digital Barnak" where the X Vario feels like a "digital M4 with MATE" lens.

    The T is a super solid little brick and, my, what a quiet shutter it has! Truly amazing for a focal plane shutter. But I decided a while ago that I don't want another system camera ... I have too many already. I looked at it mostly to see the EVF performance—yes, it's substantially nicer than the X2 EVF.

    This all bodes well for the Leica X Type 113. Which is unfortunate for me, since I'll likely be moved to spend the money to buy one. Oh well... there are worse things than buying yet another camera.

    G
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    I'm swinging on either the new X or the new T, have had a very fleeting look at a T, with zoom, but not seen the X.
    I would retain the old X1 however, so am wondering if the new X is a logical idea, it replicates the X1, but in a newer package, surely? T however (with zoom, especially) is a slightly different direction.
    Any thoughts?
    Gary

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Really depends if you want an interchangeable lens system it not. And if you want to use legacy lenses or not. Personally, I think the new X looks like a fantastic camera, but one that I wouldn't buy. I can't justify having a fixed lens camera no matter how great and useful it might be. I've been hooked on 75mm lately.

    And the T seems a bit expensive for what it is. I've just haven't gotten along with anything other than rangefinders and Leica ones at that. Though I do find the EVF and Live View valuable on the M 240, I still prefer the optical rangefinder as a base.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gbealnz View Post
    I'm swinging on either the new X or the new T, have had a very fleeting look at a T, with zoom, but not seen the X.
    I would retain the old X1 however, so am wondering if the new X is a logical idea, it replicates the X1, but in a newer package, surely? T however (with zoom, especially) is a slightly different direction.
    Any thoughts?
    Gary
    If you're keeping the X1 and maybe not entirely sure if you want to invest in a system camera and you like zooms.. then I'd say the X Vario would be the better choice. It wouldn't compete with X1 for set focal length, you would get the zoom, controls would be identical, signature quite close etc.

    I'd meditate on that for a bit.

    //Juha
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gbealnz View Post
    I'm swinging on either the new X or the new T, have had a very fleeting look at a T, with zoom, but not seen the X.
    I would retain the old X1 however, so am wondering if the new X is a logical idea, it replicates the X1, but in a newer package, surely? T however (with zoom, especially) is a slightly different direction.
    Any thoughts?
    Gary
    As I said above, I have more than enough (too many) system cameras with full suites of lenses and such. I'm enjoying the rediscovery of my X2 ... simplicity in use, one lens, no options, easy. Camera, case, strap, viewfinder, memory card, and spare battery ... all you need.

    If I go for a new X, it will be on the strength of the improved lens, the somewhat larger and more robust body, and the better EVF. One of the things I don't really like about the X2 is the collapsible lens and the only so-so manual focusing. With the X's fixed-length lens, on-barrel focusing control, and high resolution EVF, both of those issues will be gone.

    But it's still a lot of money for not so much difference in the camera. On the other hand, a Leica M body with a fast 35mm lens fitted is a setup I can use day after day and never complain about. The Leica X looks so much to be just that in a modern, digital form.

    I'm not quite committed yet, but it's looking that way.

    G
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    If you're keeping the X1 and maybe not entirely sure if you want to invest in a system camera and you like zooms.. then I'd say the X Vario would be the better choice. It wouldn't compete with X1 for set focal length, you would get the zoom, controls would be identical, signature quite close etc.

    I'd meditate on that for a bit.

    //Juha

    Thank you Juha,
    you've got me thinking now, always a bad thing.
    To that end I will get some brochures on both the T, the X (when they get them here), and the Vario.
    Then go find them to fondle and see what I think.
    Regards
    Gary

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    As I said above, I have more than enough (too many) system cameras with full suites of lenses and such. I'm enjoying the rediscovery of my X2 ... simplicity in use, one lens, no options, easy. Camera, case, strap, viewfinder, memory card, and spare battery ... all you need.

    If I go for a new X, it will be on the strength of the improved lens, the somewhat larger and more robust body, and the better EVF. One of the things I don't really like about the X2 is the collapsible lens and the only so-so manual focusing. With the X's fixed-length lens, on-barrel focusing control, and high resolution EVF, both of those issues will be gone.

    But it's still a lot of money for not so much difference in the camera. On the other hand, a Leica M body with a fast 35mm lens fitted is a setup I can use day after day and never complain about. The Leica X looks so much to be just that in a modern, digital form.

    I'm not quite committed yet, but it's looking that way.

    G

    You're not helping at all Godfrey, LOL.
    At one stage I was looking definitely at the T, but you are correct, I don't need a system.
    The one fear I had with the new to me (used) X1 was the fixed lens, and no choices except footwork. As I have expounded numerous times, it was THE best thing. So buying a T with the fixed Summicron would be OK, it would replicate this, AND give the option to expand if I so desired.

    But there is this nagging thought that the X would be more than sufficient. Or that the Vario could do it all. Goodness, what a quandary, I should buy all three, LOL
    Thanks anyway.
    Gary

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gbealnz View Post
    ...
    But there is this nagging thought that the X would be more than sufficient. Or that the Vario could do it all. Goodness, what a quandary, I should buy all three ...
    Ach, the ultimate GAS victim... !!

    For me, it comes down to the controls. I applaud Leica for the doing the T: the control interface is very innovative and, with a bit of familiarization and accommodation time, should be fantastic. It's a modern take on using the touch-screen smartphone UI model for camera control. BUT, when I played with it the other day, it's not really what I'm looking for at present.

    The X series control layout revisits something that I like a lot in my Leica M, Rollei 35, and other manual film cameras, as well as in various digital cameras with a good 'super control panel' or discrete control setup: I can glance down at the camera and in an eye-blink know what all the exposure settings are, re-set them quickly, and be ready when I bring the camera to my eye. I've done exposure and focus guesstimating for so long that I am usually within a half stop of correct with a guess. And similarly I often don't bother to use either rangefinder or TTL viewfinder for focus: I just set a distance on the focusing scale and shoot. The X2 allows me to do that but it's a little clumsy at it with the rear focus dial; the X' manual focusing and scale setting should be a lot better with the control right on the lens where it is a more natural movement to set it.

    BTW, while the X lens doesn't have DoF markings, if they implemented the manual focus distance display on the LCD or in the EVF like they did with the X2, the DoF indication will be live when you're focusing. I hope they did that ... it's one of the brilliant, subtle bits in the X2. Jono?

    In a sense, the X could be my "M Edition 60" surrogate. A super simple camera with a comfortable and minimalistic control interface, dedicated to a single lens. The M Edition 60 kit is about two pay grades up the scale from where I sit and I'm not on a rapid escalator to that level of financial involvement. Set the camera to blank the LCD, use it just for setting ISO, stick in the optical viewfinder, and go shooting. :-)

    G

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    This is getting a bit of topic, but I reckon it's related enough to warrant a line or two

    About the smartphone UI of the T or rather the touchscreen itself. How long will one of those last? I've lately been noticing growing amounts of problems with my iPhone 5's screen. I'm pretty convinced it's due to iOS 8, but anyway.. it's now 2 years old and doesn't always respond at all.

    Expanding that to the T. I'd be pissed off in a big way if in 2 years time the screen would start lacking in response, wether due to software update or something else.

    Also looking at photos from finger-smudge filled screen isn't pretty at all..

    Thus, I will continue to use cameras with mechanical buttons and no touchscreen (except occasional iPhone photography).

    So there's that to consider as well, when choosing between X and T series.

    //Juha

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    ...
    About the smartphone UI of the T or rather the touchscreen itself. How long will one of those last? I've lately been noticing growing amounts of problems with my iPhone 5's screen. I'm pretty convinced it's due to iOS 8, but anyway.. it's now 2 years old and doesn't always respond at all.

    Expanding that to the T. I'd be pissed off in a big way if in 2 years time the screen would start lacking in response, wether due to software update or something else.
    ...
    Don't confuse "problems with the touchscreen hardware" with issues stemming from an operating system change. My iPhone 4S is older than your 5. I too have noticed a slow-down in responsiveness with iOS 8, but I'm sure that's simply a little teething pain on the iOS 8 introduction. There's nothing wrong with the hardware at all. My iPod touch gen 2 and gen 4 gizmos, both MUCH older, are still working perfectly.

    Even the non-touchscreen LCD on my cameras gets smudged with nose grease and finger grease from time to time. That's why I keep a little bottle of iClear screen cleaner and a microfiber cloth in my camera bag... It's rarely enough smudging to get in the way of using the device (even the iPhone) unless I've just eaten some fried chicken and checked email a minute later.

    I have full confidence that the Leica T touchscreen is going to be around a long time with no problems. (The one on the Panasonic G2 I sold in 2011 is still working perfectly. And I love the touchscreen UI on my Olympus E-M1...)

    I just like the control layout on the X a bit more than the T for my intended use, and for the "simplicity" aesthetic that would drive me to be interested enough to spend the money. If I were looking for another system camera, the T would be one of the first on my list to think about carefully.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gbealnz View Post
    I'm swinging on either the new X or the new T, have had a very fleeting look at a T, with zoom, but not seen the X.
    I would retain the old X1 however, so am wondering if the new X is a logical idea, it replicates the X1, but in a newer package, surely? T however (with zoom, especially) is a slightly different direction.
    Any thoughts?
    Gary
    I own the x2,x-Vario and T, saw the new X at Photokina.
    My take:
    The x2 is considerably smaller than all others so its a keeper for me.
    The new X is a very nice size to handle, but not really something which goes into a pocket. If I didn't have an M and wanted something close I might get the new X.
    Owning a M the x2 seems the better addition for my purpose due to its small size.
    The T adds the flexibility of switching between zoom, fast prime in low light and even tele and wide zoom in the future. Its not really bigger than the new X, but the user interface of the T might not be for everyone.
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    As I said above, I have more than enough (too many) system cameras with full suites of lenses and such. I'm enjoying the rediscovery of my X2 ... simplicity in use, one lens, no options, easy. Camera, case, strap, viewfinder, memory card, and spare battery ... all you need.

    If I go for a new X, it will be on the strength of the improved lens, the somewhat larger and more robust body, and the better EVF. One of the things I don't really like about the X2 is the collapsible lens and the only so-so manual focusing. With the X's fixed-length lens, on-barrel focusing control, and high resolution EVF, both of those issues will be gone.

    But it's still a lot of money for not so much difference in the camera. On the other hand, a Leica M body with a fast 35mm lens fitted is a setup I can use day after day and never complain about. The Leica X looks so much to be just that in a modern, digital form.

    I'm not quite committed yet, but it's looking that way.

    G
    Hi G,
    Personally I like the collapsed lens of the X2 because it keeps it small.
    Even though I own the VF2 I don't use it any more on the X2. If I want a finder camera I take the M (or T), if I want a small camera I take the x2 without VF.
    So the better Viewfinder is not that important for me.
    The speed of the lens 1.7 is nice, but from reading it seems its only at infinity.
    Many small improvements but nothing major IMO.
    On the other side ... people have been asking for a faster lens, faster display, EVF,.... i the end the new X looses a bit the idea of the x1/x2: a lockable camera with a large sensor. I don't blame Leica for it.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi G,
    Personally I like the collapsed lens of the X2 because it keeps it small.
    Even though I own the VF2 I don't use it any more on the X2. If I want a finder camera I take the M (or T), if I want a small camera I take the x2 without VF.
    So the better Viewfinder is not that important for me.
    The speed of the lens 1.7 is nice, but from reading it seems its only at infinity.
    Many small improvements but nothing major IMO.
    On the other side ... people have been asking for a faster lens, faster display, EVF,.... i the end the new X looses a bit the idea of the x1/x2: a lockable camera with a large sensor. I don't blame Leica for it.
    I presume you meant to write "pocketable" camera ...

    I guess that depends on how big your pockets are. :-)

    Seriously, where I live is pretty warm most of the year so for something to be pocketable here it means it has to fit in a trousers pocket ... the X2 can't do that comfortably. It does fit in larger jacket pockets but is quite a bit of a lump there. I normally keep it on a neckstrap and/or put it in a bag.

    I do always have a viewfinder on it ... either optical or the EVF (mostly an optical because, as good as the EVF is, it doesn't really help focusing all that much due to the resolution and the X2 implementation of focusing assist). I'd do the same with the X.

    I've thought along a similar line of reasoning. Why do I want a larger, version of the X2 when I have the M9 already? What comes to mind:

    - The X/X2 sensor is much more sensitive than the M9, by two to three stops give or take.
    - My only 35mm lens for the M9 is the Color-Skopar 35/2.5, which is nice and small, and a fine performer in its own right... But it gives up a lot compared to the Summilux or Summicron 35s (not just in speed). Both of which are both larger and much more expensive.
    - The X, even though larger than the X2, is still quite a bit smaller than the M9, and smaller/lighter yet then the M-P (type 240).
    - The X also does video (not in the M9 at all).

    To get a the more sensitive, more capable M and 35mm f/2 lens would cost me net about $6000 or so, selling off the M9 and C-S 35mm lens and repurposing the money. And I'd still have a larger, heavier camera that I mostly want to use with a 35mm lens. The X would cost me a little under $3000, and I don't lose the M9 or the Color-Skopar 35 ...

    No clear cut answer yet. But I am liking the X concept a lot. I'll keep shooting with the X2 for a while ... :-)

    G

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I presume you meant to write "pocketable" camera ...

    I guess that depends on how big your pockets are. :-)

    Seriously, where I live is pretty warm most of the year so for something to be pocketable here it means it has to fit in a trousers pocket ... the X2 can't do that comfortably. It does fit in larger jacket pockets but is quite a bit of a lump there. I normally keep it on a neckstrap and/or put it in a bag.

    I do always have a viewfinder on it ... either optical or the EVF (mostly an optical because, as good as the EVF is, it doesn't really help focusing all that much due to the resolution and the X2 implementation of focusing assist). I'd do the same with the X.

    I've thought along a similar line of reasoning. Why do I want a larger, version of the X2 when I have the M9 already? What comes to mind:

    - The X/X2 sensor is much more sensitive than the M9, by two to three stops give or take.
    - My only 35mm lens for the M9 is the Color-Skopar 35/2.5, which is nice and small, and a fine performer in its own right... But it gives up a lot compared to the Summilux or Summicron 35s (not just in speed). Both of which are both larger and much more expensive.
    - The X, even though larger than the X2, is still quite a bit smaller than the M9, and smaller/lighter yet then the M-P (type 240).
    - The X also does video (not in the M9 at all).

    To get a the more sensitive, more capable M and 35mm f/2 lens would cost me net about $6000 or so, selling off the M9 and C-S 35mm lens and repurposing the money. And I'd still have a larger, heavier camera that I mostly want to use with a 35mm lens. The X would cost me a little under $3000, and I don't lose the M9 or the Color-Skopar 35 ...

    No clear cut answer yet. But I am liking the X concept a lot. I'll keep shooting with the X2 for a while ... :-)

    G
    Yes, all valid points. I guess we are in a different situation, because I use the M type 240 which has better high ISO than the M9 and can shoot video plus I have 35 Summilux FLE and 35 Summicron and even the very compact 35 Summarit.

    On the other side many of us (including me) do have gear that overlaps - nothing wrong about that.

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    I have succumbed, thanks Jono ... sigh.
    This site costs me a fortune on a too-regular basis.

    I'll write up my evaluation once I have it and use it for a bit.

    G
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    YeeeHaaaa, it had to happen, LOL.
    I am still swinging, so yes please, let us out of the way folk know your thoughts please.
    Gary
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I have succumbed, thanks Jono ... sigh.
    This site costs me a fortune on a too-regular basis.

    I'll write up my evaluation once I have it and use it for a bit.

    G
    Sorry Godfrey . . was it those RAW files I sent?

    I hope you got the brown and silver one?
    I look forwards to your feelings (and pictures too).

    all the best

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Sorry Godfrey . . was it those RAW files I sent?

    I hope you got the brown and silver one?
    I look forwards to your feelings (and pictures too).

    all the best
    Two things tickled me to go this way:

    - how much I like shooting with the X2

    There's something about the dynamics of using a camera with one good lens, no distractions about changing lenses, picking focal lengths, etc, that is resonating with me at the moment very strongly. Particularly a camera which is utterly simple to understand and operate, easy to take full advantage of. The small size is a big plus—I'll carry it most of the time, same as I used to carry a film M with a 35mm lens all the time. The availability of AF for those 85% cases where it works well is a plus. Etc.

    The X2 is actually a little smaller than I prefer most of the time where an M4-2 is right on the money. The M9 isn't that much bigger, but it always feels much larger and heavier. The X being just a little bit smaller than the M4-2, and a little bit lighter, should work well on the "compact and carry it all the time" scale.
    - how little I like using manual focus with the X2

    I usually have the X2 set up with optical viewfinder and let it set focus itself, or use zone focus which means stopped down, because the X2's manual focusing whether to LCD or EVF is simply clumsy and imprecise. The control on the back of the camera is slow to respond, the view on screen or EVF is not quite high enough resolution to work at the level I want. Luckily, it's AF system is capable enough most of the time that I don't get annoyed with it, but it would be much more useful if I could rely on reliable manual focusing without having to give up AF entirely (aka the Ricoh GXR, Leica M9, Sony A7 with Leica lenses...).

    My journey to the camera shop and look at the X Vario and T's EVF convinced me to hope that the on-lens focusing of the X Vario combined with the brightness and clarity of the T EVF, and a fast lens, would be a critical advantage. I'd be able to use it in difficult light circumstances because I can focus it manually when the AF system gets in my way. (IME, all AF systems give up the ghost at the most annoying times... That's why the first thing I programmed on the E-M1 is a conveniently located button to toggle into MF as soon as AF became hopeless.)
    Too much thinking and analysis about this purchase, I think. I feel like I'm rationalizing—but eh? Such it is. In the end it's just another camera, and hopefully one that will work well. I bought from a retailer with a 30 day satisfaction return policy just in case it doesn't work out.

    I went for the black finish: the EVF is only available in black and I think it looks an unsightly lump on the beautiful silver/brown body. In black, it just looks "technical," not lumpy. I expect it will be on the camera a bit more of the time than the VF-2 on the X2. The black body also looks nicer with the black Leica or Voigtländer OVF; the latter I already have.

    Presuming I keep it, I'll dress it up with an Arte di Mano half-case in dark brown or red. It will be a little different from my other Leicas (all also black finish) which live in black leather half-cases. That's my concession to camera style. ;-)

    Now let's see if I can get UPS to deliver it today. It was due in by 10:30 this morning and requires a signature, but they just txted me that bad weather will delay delivery. And the options for pick-up aren't great. PITA!

    I do have work to do today...

    G
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  50. #50
    Super Duper
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    Re: New Leica X (Typ 113)

    The Leica X package arrived a few moments ago. I took a break to open it and take a quick look at the camera.

    Since it uses the same battery as the X2, I was able to pop in a fully charged battery immediately as well as a 16G card. Understanding the controls and menus is very easy: I had the whole camera set up in four minutes, just like I have the X2. Flipping it to manual focus, even without fitting the EVF, I can tell immediately that it is FAR easier to achieve critical focus and the focusing aid works very well. The AF/MF focusing ring control is very nicely arranged, with a very good feel.

    While the camera is larger and heavier than the X2, the difference is actually pretty subtle—the X Vario felt noticeably larger because of the zoom lens, I guess. The fit and finish overall are a nice grade higher on the scale, the metal lens cap and lens controls have that "Leica quality" feel as well.

    Do I dislike anything at this first brief look? One quick thing I noticed is that the X2's Opt. Viewfinder option (which keeps the LCD off normally when an optical viewfinder is fitted) doesn't seem to be available in the X menu. Not a big deal, but it's nice not to have the LCD lit up all the time when you don't want/need it. I suspect Leica's intent is that most users will use the EVF most of the time for eye-level shooting... ?

    Jono, is there a way to configure the camera to turn off the LCD for optical viewfinder use? I'll read the instruction manual this evening. :-)

    That's it for now. I'll put a strap on it and do some shooting later. Back to work.

    G

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