Leica user, needs non-leica advice please..

[rayyan]

I did not know which forum to post this in; Mods can move it if inappropriate here..

I am a Leica user, and shall remain so, till my eyesight or health gives way.

However, I do need a an additional Sony A7s or a Fuji XT-1. I cannot decide between these two. I have been a Leica and Nikon user for over 30 years. The Nikon collects dust currently.

I do have the Fuji X100s and the Fuji XE-1. But have not been satisfied with either one for low light work. Missed focuses, long time to focus etc., specially in low light have resulted in many wasted opportunities. I hate using tripods and artificial lights. I mean I just detest using either of those two items.

My main use is street, travel photography.

I shall be grateful for the experienced users to discuss this and/or advise me. I need one of these in time for a vacation in either China or Japan in the middle of winter..

Thank you all kindly.

 

[woodyspedden]

I did not know which forum to post this in; Mods can move it if inappropriate here..

I am a Leica user, and shall remain so, till my eyesight or health gives way.

However, I do need a an additional Sony A7s or a Fuji XT-1. I cannot decide between these two. I have been a Leica and Nikon user for over 30 years. The Nikon collects dust currently.

I do have the Fuji X100s and the Fuji XE-1. But have not been satisfied with either one for low light work. Missed focuses, long time to focus etc., specially in low light have resulted in many wasted opportunities. I hate using tripods and artificial lights. I mean I just detest using either of those two items.

My main use is street, travel photography.


I shall be grateful for the experienced users to discuss this and/or advise me. I need one of these in time for a vacation in either China or Japan in the middle of winter..

Thank you all kindly.

Rayann

I have been using the Fuji XPro1 for several years and recently invested in the XT1. I had been using Ms for as long as I can remember but at 77 years old I just can't hit focus often enough to continue so I sold all my M bodies.

I find the XT1 to be a great camera. Fast AF, great IQ and most of all, the recent lenses e.g. the 56 1.2 and the 23 1.4 are just sensational! I already had the 35 1.4. the 18-55 zoom and the 55-200 zoom so I now have a complete system which covers all my needs. ( O.K. I may need Macro capability at some point} I can't imagine that with these lenses you could do better for low light work. Plus the high ISO capabilities of the XT1 complements the high speed lenses very well. Plus you can use all your M lenses with the Fuji M adapter. I kept all my M lenses just for that purpose but I must admit the Fujinon lenses are so good I rarely use the Ms.

Just my opinions and my experiences

Woody Spedden

 

[MCTuomey]

I have an X-T1, been using it for about 6 months, not heavily. Some low light, club shooting. I like its handling, interface, lens line-up, image quality. AF is just okay, coming from 1- and 5-series EOS cameras. I would like to try the A7s very much - judging from reviews, posts, and posted images, it would be even better for my lowlight work than the X-T1. I like the apparent file quality of the A7s, a lot. What I don't like is the lack of native AF lenses from Sony for that mount (not interested in adapting large AF lenses from other mounts).

Like you I am an M user. The X-T1 fits my need for a system that offers AF and zoom flexibility with Leica-like portability.

 

[rayyan]

Hello Woody.

I am grateful to you for providing me with your hands-on experience with the XT1. I have the lens wish list ready for this cam. The 23 and the 56. I have the 35 and the 18-55. I was also thinking of adding the 14. I instinctively abhor zooms. But that one came with the XE1. And pretty decent too.

In my recent excursions into dim lit temples, my X100s was less than satisfactory, for me. I had to move around to find enough contrast to focus..even then a candle behind a robe would be focussed on. My D700 excelled at such things.

Being slightly invested in the Fuji system, this would seem to be the logical approach. But hear good things for stills ( from a video aimed cam ) in the A7s.

I do not want to commit financial resources and then have buyer's remorse.

Hence, I had to ask for advice; which you have so generously provide.

Thank you, stay well, stay long.

Rayann

I have been using the Fuji XPro1 for several years and recently invested in the XT1. I had been using Ms for as long as I can remember but at 77 years old I just can't hit focus often enough to continue so I sold all my M bodies.

I find the XT1 to be a great camera. Fast AF, great IQ and most of all, the recent lenses e.g. the 56 1.2 and the 23 1.4 are just sensational! I already had the 35 1.4. the 18-55 zoom and the 55-200 zoom so I now have a complete system which covers all my needs. ( O.K. I may need Macro capability at some point} I can't imagine that with these lenses you could do better for low light work. Plus the high ISO capabilities of the XT1 complements the high speed lenses very well. Plus you can use all your M lenses with the Fuji M adapter. I kept all my M lenses just for that purpose but I must admit the Fujinon lenses are so good I rarely use the Ms.

Just my opinions and my experiences

Woody Spedden

 

[rayyan]

Hi there Mike.

Very gracious of you to respond with your real life experience with the XT1.

How did you find it in low light in the clubs? Which lenses were you using?
Priests and brides do not move fast, rather ponderously for my taste in fact; in such scenarios would the AF on the XT1 be acceptable?

I know I ask too many questions, but I cannot find answers here easily. It is difficult to even find out the serial numbers of the XT1s affected by the light leak issues in the Middle East. I have sent a query to Fuji M.E. Waiting for their response.

As you, I have read as much as I can on the A7s. On paper it seems to be better in low light c.f the XT1. However, The AF is still waiting for a verdict. Indeed the Sony lens line-up leaves a lot to be desired.

Please accept my thanks for the time taken to respond to my query. It does add up towards approaching a decision.

Kindest regards.

I have an X-T1, been using it for about 6 months, not heavily. Some low light, club shooting. I like its handling, interface, lens line-up, image quality. AF is just okay, coming from 1- and 5-series EOS cameras. I would like to try the A7s very much - judging from reviews, posts, and posted images, it would be even better for my lowlight work than the X-T1. I like the apparent file quality of the A7s, a lot. What I don't like is the lack of native AF lenses from Sony for that mount (not interested in adapting large AF lenses from other mounts).

Like you I am an M user. The X-T1 fits my need for a system that offers AF and zoom flexibility with Leica-like portability.

 

[jonoslack]

HI There Ray
First of all, I haven't used the A7s, so I can't give any kind of definitive answer. I really liked the X-T1 (bar the RAW files for the green countryside around here, but that's not your bag and so it doesn't matter). Focusing was pretty swift and shutter lag excellent. But I'm still slightly worried about the future of the X-Trans sensor . . how long will software support it if Fuji moves to an organic sensor (or back to Bayer)?

I didn't get on with the A7 or the A7r because of the noisy shutter . . . but of course that isn't an issue with the A7s; I must admit I've been tempted myself, but I've resisted as I'm not totally convinced by 12mp (again for landscape work in the UK).

Still, in your position, and knowing that shooting in dark temples is very much your bag, I'd have thought that the A7s is probably the way to go. The 55 f1.8 is really a lovely lens (I still have mine . . . waiting for the perfect body to go with it). . . . . . and . . although I have the 24-70 f4 zoom I actually thought that the kit zoom was technically better on my A7 (and would have been even more so on the A7s with less resolution).

 

[MCTuomey]

Ray, happy to share my experience, hope it helps you.

The X-T1's AF capability in the small, dimly lit clubs where I shoot has generally been okay as to accuracy and speed. Where there is any appreciable stage lighting, it's been more than adequate, especially if the focus point is not made too small. The X-T1's AF speed can be strangely inconsistent. It really wants good contrast to bite, so if I pick my AF target accordingly I'm fine.

Lenses used in the clubs: the 56/1.2 primarily, only a little with the 35/1.4 and the 23/1.4. I find the 56 excellent for this use, can't say much about the other two due to lack of experience.

I'm not a wedding shooter, so I can't speak there. I did shoot a portion of an evening garden party for a friend using only the 56 and had no issues with AF, even as the light fell considerably at the end of the event. I believe I could happily and confidently shoot events with the 56 and any one of the fast fuji wides, with a few extra batteries, I'm sure.

--Mike

Hi there Mike.

Very gracious of you to respond with your real life experience with the XT1.

How did you find it in low light in the clubs? Which lenses were you using?
Priests and brides do not move fast, rather ponderously for my taste in fact; in such scenarios would the AF on the XT1 be acceptable?

I know I ask too many questions, but I cannot find answers here easily. It is difficult to even find out the serial numbers of the XT1s affected by the light leak issues in the Middle East. I have sent a query to Fuji M.E. Waiting for their response.

As you, I have read as much as I can on the A7s. On paper it seems to be better in low light c.f the XT1. However, The AF is still waiting for a verdict. Indeed the Sony lens line-up leaves a lot to be desired.

Please accept my thanks for the time taken to respond to my query. It does add up towards approaching a decision.

Kindest regards.

 

[ptomsu]

I shoot the XT1 since a few months now and could not be happier with IQ I get from this camera and lenses. AF is decent, although maybe a bit slower and less predictable than the EM1. Especially face detect AF worked surely better in the EM1.

But for me the IQ, handling, lens lineup etc. from Fuji is just outweighing any potential AF issue and I am confident AF will get even better with future FW releases. Also fast electronic shutter coming with the new FW in December will just be awesome and not possible with any other camera so far up to my knowledge. Plus many other features coming like direct AF selection possibility and automatic EVF brightness (both already available in the EM1) finally coming to the XT1. So Fuji is doing again a great job in adding new possibilities to their cameras like no other vendor currently can show.

I meanwhile consider APSC as a sweetspot for digital photography with a system like Fuji, especially as one can expect even higher resolution from next generation Fuji sensors soon. My choice would be Fuji again if I were looking for an overall most perfect camera system. And finally I think for you invested already in Fuji this should be a no brainer.

 

[docmoore]

Wow Ray...

Seems like the Sony fan club is asleep on this one...

So I had the Fuji X-T1 and loved it...great camera great focusing and pretty Fujifull colors...should have ticked all the boxes....

But my history said otherwise...Phase 20, Canon 1D, Nikon 700, Nikon D3, Nikon D3s, Canon 1Dx...and along comes the Sony A7s....now I loved the RX1 and RX1R...liked the A7R but oh the A7s.:thumb up:

12Mp is adequate...especially when you have a Leica RF or S 006 for "Serious Stuff"...gorgeous colors very fast AF wonderful manual assist and dare I mention the 4K video that allowed me to divest my Panasonic GH4. Full frame beautiful shallow DOF but again you can focus a Noctilux 0.95 in the dark with this camera...

And .... dead silent digital shutter ... NO NOISE at all from the camera and very little in the file...so you may have to add a bit in post.

Shoot... it is the price of a Leica lens cap ... if you do not bond with it you can move it without difficulty but my instinct is that all of those back alley and mountain pictures of yours will convince you of how good it is.

However ... Fuji has some good lenses ... Sony has less but all of your Leica glass will work either stunningly or fairly well...much better than the A7r for wides and the Tri Elmar is stunning...

I have loved this ability to use almost any lens... one of my favorites is a P67 105 F 2.5 gorgeous bokeh very sharp and good contrast...the Summilux 50 Summarit 75 and anything longer is so stunning. I have a VC 35 Nokton SC on it at the present and it images so well.....

So X-T1 or A7s .... my choice was for the big big photosites and marvelous color, 4K, adequate battery life and great EVF/LCD.

You will make either work...looking forward to your very exotic posts with whichever.

Regards,

Bob

 

[rayyan]

Good morning to Jono, Mike, Peter, Bob and woody.

Wow!!
Just got up and so so grateful for the responses. Need my coffee, while I read through the responses.

What a lovely place this forum is...an expert's club for free.

My wife just landed in Hong Kong. ( she is visiting S.E. Asia ) with some friends.

I might just..just might ask her to pick up something..but then again, she can use cams, but...

I shall put my thoughts down little later, after being fully awake.

In the meantime, :salute:

 

[jonoslack]

12Mp is adequate...especially when you have a Leica RF or S 006 for "Serious Stuff"...gorgeous colors very fast AF wonderful manual assist and dare I mention the 4K video that allowed me to divest my Panasonic GH4. Full frame beautiful shallow DOF but again you can focus a Noctilux 0.95 in the dark with this camera...

And .... dead silent digital shutter ... NO NOISE at all from the camera and very little in the file...so you may have to add a bit in post.

Hush Bob HUSH will you

 

[Paratom]

Wow Ray...

Seems like the Sony fan club is asleep on this one...

So I had the Fuji X-T1 and loved it...great camera great focusing and pretty Fujifull colors...should have ticked all the boxes....

But my history said otherwise...Phase 20, Canon 1D, Nikon 700, Nikon D3, Nikon D3s, Canon 1Dx...and along comes the Sony A7s....now I loved the RX1 and RX1R...liked the A7R but oh the A7s.:thumb up:

12Mp is adequate...especially when you have a Leica RF or S 006 for "Serious Stuff"...gorgeous colors very fast AF wonderful manual assist and dare I mention the 4K video that allowed me to divest my Panasonic GH4. Full frame beautiful shallow DOF but again you can focus a Noctilux 0.95 in the dark with this camera...

And .... dead silent digital shutter ... NO NOISE at all from the camera and very little in the file...so you may have to add a bit in post.

Shoot... it is the price of a Leica lens cap ... if you do not bond with it you can move it without difficulty but my instinct is that all of those back alley and mountain pictures of yours will convince you of how good it is.

However ... Fuji has some good lenses ... Sony has less but all of your Leica glass will work either stunningly or fairly well...much better than the A7r for wides and the Tri Elmar is stunning...

I have loved this ability to use almost any lens... one of my favorites is a P67 105 F 2.5 gorgeous bokeh very sharp and good contrast...the Summilux 50 Summarit 75 and anything longer is so stunning. I have a VC 35 Nokton SC on it at the present and it images so well.....

So X-T1 or A7s .... my choice was for the big big photosites and marvelous color, 4K, adequate battery life and great EVF/LCD.

You will make either work...looking forward to your very exotic posts with whichever.

Regards,

Bob

The A7s sounds temting but I still think when using a Leica M lens I would probably allways prefer to use it on a Leica M Body, with optical viewfinder, more Resolution and the beautiful user Interface. The only benefit would be better high ISO and of course 4k if someone is using this often.
Yes, so maybe as a second Body for an M-System.

To the OP - I didnt find for what reason you want an additional System/ what are the funcions you want in such System? Should it be smaller, or have fast AF, or be better in low light, or possible to use longer lenses?

 

[rayyan]

Thanks for looking in.

Agreed, I too prefer native mounts for all lenses.
However, adapting has come in handy for me to minimise the number
of lenses I have to carry and unnecessary duplication.

I need a second smallish interchangeable lens camera system for low light work
and AF capabilities as/when I need it.

Best regards.

The A7s sounds temting but I still think when using a Leica M lens I would probably allways prefer to use it on a Leica M Body, with optical viewfinder, more Resolution and the beautiful user Interface. The only benefit would be better high ISO and of course 4k if someone is using this often.
Yes, so maybe as a second Body for an M-System.

To the OP - I didnt find for what reason you want an additional System/ what are the funcions you want in such System? Should it be smaller, or have fast AF, or be better in low light, or possible to use longer lenses?

 

[rayyan]

Guys, thank you, thank you for this generous input.:salute:

What I shall do, to minimise the financial burden to me, is to get the XT1 from here, without any additional lenses. I have the Fuji M adaptor. I shall test it...
maybe visit somewhere near..Istanbul ...and test the system.

If it does not satisfy me, the maximum loss is less than the original cost of the XT1 as determined by the resale value. Else a full price loss, but as Bob correctly
mentions...the cost of doing business. Hopefully I shall at least have some nice images from nearby.

In such a case, I intend to invest in the Sony A7s and one lens, 2 extra batteries, a Novaflex/ VM-E adaptor.

And go East!!

Once again my appreciation to all for helping me to think through.

Warmest regards to all.

p.s. Safer option, for me, get both...test them together...and see what works. After all one only lives once.

 

[turtle]

You may not like zooms, but if you are a wide shooter, the A7s and 16-35 OSS will be a very effective combo for low light work.

 

[Paratom]

Thanks for looking in.

Agreed, I too prefer native mounts for all lenses.
However, adapting has come in handy for me to minimise the number
of lenses I have to carry and unnecessary duplication.

I need a second smallish interchangeable lens camera system for low light work
and AF capabilities as/when I need it.

Best regards.

If you say low light and AF I would think the A7s sounds like a good solution.
On the other side FF lenses are not smallish.

Personally my favorite additional cams to the M-System are the EM1 (when I need a fast and/or weatherproff compact System) and the T.) But both are not as good as the A7s in low light.

 

[sven]

Guys, thank you, thank you for this generous input.:salute:

What I shall do, to minimise the financial burden to me, is to get the XT1 from here, without any additional lenses. I have the Fuji M adaptor. I shall test it...
maybe visit somewhere near..Istanbul ...and test the system.

If it does not satisfy me, the maximum loss is less than the original cost of the XT1 as determined by the resale value. Else a full price loss, but as Bob correctly
mentions...the cost of doing business. Hopefully I shall at least have some nice images from nearby.

In such a case, I intend to invest in the Sony A7s and one lens, 2 extra batteries, a Novaflex/ VM-E adaptor.

And go East!!

Once again my appreciation to all for helping me to think through.

Warmest regards to all.

p.s. Safer option, for me, get both...test them together...and see what works. After all one only lives once.

I sincerely recommend downloading raw files from A7s and seeing it in a well calibrated monitor. I have both. There is no comparison. The Sony A7s is far superior in IQ. it works great with most Leica lenses. In fact, of all the Leica lenses I used the only one that does not work well is the 28 f/2 cron otherwise I have used all the way from 21mm to 90mm.

Shutter sound is Nil, Nada, Zip. I never cared much about it till I started using it. Even in studio use it makes a big difference. More natural expressions can be captured. Af is very accurate and it focusses in near darkness without assist!

It does come with 2 batteries so you can get by based on the amount you chimp. Fuji XT1 is a great camera but unfortunately the Sony A7s is better.

Cheers

 

[sven]

Not to change topic, I am not Sony fanboy. I do not like Sony as a company for variety of reasons, including their aggressive push on certain historical products like CDs, Digital encryption (where the consumer was forced to pay, while it benefited the industry). But the A7s is one heck of a camera for what it does with current cutting edge technology.

 

[rayyan]

Hello again.

Thanks so much for the valuable inputs you guys are providing me.

I was in the Fuji shop a little while ago. Spent quite sometime there. The XT1s they have in stock ( in the shop ) are with serial numbers that have the ' light leak ' issue. The earliest for stock to be brought from the warehouse is Monday.

I passed by the main Sony shop. No A7s available. I guess I need to order it from the U.S. or the U.K. But we are approaching about a 14 days vacation period, and the equipment shall just lie at the customs till holidays finish.

In short, I shall wait during this period, and collect a list of items to be ordered.

I have gone through images made with both cams on various sites multiple times.

Now I cannot stand to see one more cat/dog/flower image.

Best regards to you all.

p.s. YES, FF lenses are big and heavy. Except M lenses, of course.

 

[aDam007]

The A7 series cameras are pretty good. Some of your Leica lenses won't look their best, but I think the manual focusing system in the A7 series cameras will give you the easiest time.

Also with the native lenses (so far not many), the A7 is a pretty decent system. I personally don't like Sony or Fuji's menu system or startup nonsense. They both feel to me as if they're not really cameras, but devices that take quality photos. I liked my A7 photos better then my Fuji photos to be honest.
I'd sooner go with the Panasonic setup, I find that the images I've played with from my friends panasonic with "Leica" panasonic lenses really aren't that bad. Again, I'd go with the A7, followed by the panasonic setup then the Fuji. Althought fuji jpg files are pretty nice.

Bottom line, you can't really go wrong with any of mentioned systems.