Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

  1. #1
    New Member lpig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Venice (Italy)
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like

    Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Good morning to the forum.

    Just to say also in this forum that my dear M8, stolen near Venice more than one year ago, magically reappeared on sale in the ebay store of a valued german Leica Dealer.
    I informed the seller, but M8 has already gone, sold to an happy (and probably unaware) customer, whose identity is protected by privacy.
    As for the gentleman of Leica store the question is closed, but Police and Leica are obviously informed.

    So, a message for the anonymous buyer: the camera is good, good shots!

    Leica M8 chrome (s/n 3101428) with handgrip
    Voigtlander 35mm 1.2 Nokton silver edition (s/n 9740281)

    Regards
    Marcello (Venice, Italy)

    Here is my M8:

    Last edited by lpig; 27th October 2014 at 05:47. Reason: picts added

  2. #2
    Senior Member GMB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Heart of Europe
    Posts
    396
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    I think the reason why the German dealer is not willing to disclose the name of the buyer may have to do more with his financial interest rather than with the protection of privacy.

    Under German civil law, you cannot become the owner of a stolen good, even if you acquired it in good faith. Thus, as the owner of the camera, you could require the buyer to give it back to you. The buyer could then ask the dealer to reimburse the purchase price. The dealer could go back to the person who sold it to him and request reimbursement of the purchase price. However, most likely that option is a theoretical one because that person may have disappeared.

    Admittedly, my knowledge of German civil law is a bit rusty (I know practice in a different area), but I am pretty confident that what I said here is still correct. I also think you may have a claim against the dealer to reveal the identity of the buyer.
    Last edited by GMB; 28th October 2014 at 13:24.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Georg
    My new website (under construction) at Zenfolio
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #3
    New Member lpig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Venice (Italy)
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Many thanks for your contribution!

    This is, briefly, the full story:

    1) My beloved M8 was stolen in Italy, during March 2013;
    2) The camera was on sale on Ebay.de, in July 2014. The offer was retired by the seller (an important german dealer) before the end. As to the offer, the camera could be sent everywhere in the world, except Italy (!!!, very strange...);
    3) I found the offer on the web (in Google cache), in August 2014. Both the seller, Ebay.de, Leica AG, IT Police, DE Police were informed immediatly.
    4) The seller wrote me "we have bought the M8 during a photo stock exchange from a supplier present there and have resold them some time later with Ebay". As for him the identities of supplier and customer are both protected by privacy (!!!).
    5) I asked to and important manager of Leica Camera "Why should I buy my next Leica in a Certified Leica Shop? I will have no more warranties of a garage sale....". He answered in a couple of minutes (many thanks Mr. S.D.!), and so a Leica representative went to the dealer's shop;
    6) The dealer assured to Leica that he "tried to buy back the camera from their customer at full price", but the customer refused the offer, even though now well informed that the camera was stolen (!!! Incredible! A good camera but a crazy customer, I suppose...).
    7) So I asked the german seller to pay me the same amount of money for the full property of the camera, including software, box and warranty and property certif-cate. This would have solved every problem and should avoid any concern about dealer's and customer integrity, but he refused to trade.

    Buying/selling/trading stolen material is persecuted by law, in Italy, in Germany, everywhere. You cannot buy anything in "good faith" if you know that it is stolen. If you purchase a stolen good, you are not the rightful owner, it has to be returned to the rightful owner without compensation (or with compesation by your supplier, of course, and so on...).

    I have now no other possibility than waiting help of German Police.
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #4
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,296
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Are you in communication with the police?
    With best regards, K-H.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Northumbria
    Posts
    78
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Quote Originally Posted by lpig View Post
    I have now no other possibility than waiting help of German Police.
    There are always other possibilities.

    Anyway, give the cops a reasonable amount of time to do an investigation and report back to you their failure/apathy/disinterest ...

    then do more stuff.

    We're not talking about pennies here!

  6. #6
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Did you try using the Stolen Camera Finder - find your photos, find your camera ?

    This website crawls the web looking for photos with your camera serial number embedded into the EXIF file.

    It may be worth a shot to find the user. Perhaps he was actually never contacted by the shop who sold him/her your stolen camera.

    If he refuses to cooperate, I guess you can still pass his details to the police.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    398
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Stealing Leica gear is big business.

    SEE THIS

    AND THIS

    I expect most stolen merchandise sales to be discreet person to person sales but to see a stolen camera come full circle and into a legit Leica dealer that is really appalling. Disgusting really.

    Hope you get your money back.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  8. #8
    New Member rfaspen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Posts
    14
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    This is worrisome on many levels. I'm not convinced the "german dealer" is being honest. That alone makes me recoil. While many of us can survive a theft of this kind, it is not a victimless crime. I, for one, have had to work very, very hard to be able to purchase my Leica gear. The thought that one thoughtless and amoral individual could steal so many hours of my life in one shot makes me nauseous.

    I very much hope to read about eventual justice here....and soon.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Jerusalem, Israel
    Posts
    1,280
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Do we all register our serial numbers with Leica? I'm not sure if I am up to date on that, or if it matters. Reading the list of lenses stolen from Red Dot made me go and check the serial number of a silver Summilux 50 that I purchased on E-Bay in June 2014. Mine was not the one stolen in London in May 2014, fortunately.

    The web service that checks to see if a camera serial number appears in pictures shown on the web sounds valuable, if ambitious -- how much can they really check? But how could you scan the world for lenses by their serial numbers? And it is an interesting challenge to look for serial numbers of goods offered for sale, where you have to drill quite far down in a website to see that information. Of course it is just a Small Matter of Programming (SMOP).

    scott

  10. #10
    Member Zlatko Batistich's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Cresskill, New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    102
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    I expect most stolen merchandise sales to be discreet person to person sales but to see a stolen camera come full circle and into a legit Leica dealer that is really appalling. Disgusting really.
    As the dealer has apparently refused to do the right thing, the dealer should be identified in this thread.

  11. #11
    New Member lpig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Venice (Italy)
    Posts
    11
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Zlatko Batistich View Post
    As the dealer has apparently refused to do the right thing, the dealer should be identified in this thread.
    Ok, you're right.
    Here you can download the Ebay offer for the camera.

    Leica M8 Body With Hangrip FFOX-V

    Thanks
    marcello
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  12. #12
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,594
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    Suspicion confirmed!

    Good luck to you and I hope you will at least get your money recovered.

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    33
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Stolen M8 reappeared ....

    does seller ship to italy with other items?
    very odd...

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •