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Thread: M9 ... time for a time-out

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Nice capture! A pity that there is banding, even at ISO6400.
    Please point out the banding in the photo. I can't see it.

    G
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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Nice capture! A pity that there is banding, even at ISO6400.
    ....... spoiling the image?

    which doesn't mean I think it's okay

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosermage View Post
    Godfrey, it sounds like a good deal, directly from Leica. However, looking at the second hand market, you could probably do it (sell M9 + buy M240) for about $2500 extra investment, or less if you can fetch a good price for a M9 with new CCD.

    I'm not sure what I would do if I was in your shoes.
    Looking about at Ebay completed auctions and other vendors, $4200 seems pretty close to average market value for a clean M9 at present. I see a couple of units selling for up to $700 more, and quite a few selling for a little to a lot less. That says, to me, that Leica has done their homework and is offering a fair market value. I might do a little better with a private sale, but I doubt by a $1700 difference unless I also went for a used M typ 240. The few M-P typ 240s I see are $400-600 under list price.

    If I go this route, I'll go for the Leica deal. A new M-P with warranty at $3750 is worth it; add cost of case and spare battery, subtract sale of current M9 case and spare batteries, and I suspect it's $4000 out of pocket regardless. It's a good deal.

    The decision is whether I want to spend the money for it. That's the aesthetic decision. I think I'll stop up to the camera shop tomorrow and play with the M typ 240 again...

    G

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Please point out the banding in the photo. I can't see it.

    G
    If you can not see it what good would it do if i point it to you?

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    ....... spoiling the image?

    which doesn't mean I think it's okay
    I am a fan of your writing style but that does not mean I like the contents.

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If you can not see it what good would it do if i point it to you?
    The same good it will do for anyone else who does not see some detail of a photo that you see: possibly educating that person towards what you're seeing.

    What's the point of making such a statement if you won't articulate what you're saying when someone doesn't see what you do? Just to be snarky? I asked you to point out the banding you're seeing in good faith because I don't see it. Is there something about that disturbing to you?

    I nipped a copy of the JPEG and tweaked a curves adjustment layer over it in Photoshop. I can see noise and other artifacts when I push it far enough, sure, but I could do the same with any JPEG presented on line. But what do you see given the photograph as shown here in the thread?

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Hold your horses there! May be your monitor can not reveal it. So, there is no point in pointing out where the banding is.

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Hold your horses there! May be your monitor can not reveal it. So, there is no point in pointing out where the banding is.
    Sorry, Vivek, but that means you're just being snarky. I am using a perfectly good, high resolution display. Either point out the defect you see, or drop the subject.

    Maybe your display is banding...

    G

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Okay ... made my decision.

    I stopped in at the camera shop and spent an hour and some with an M typ 240 and the three lenses that are the bulk of what I've been using on the M9—Summilux 35/1.4 v2, Nokton 50/1.5 (LTM), and Ultron 28/2. I set the 240 to JPEG+raw.

    For each lens, I set the lens code to OFF and made twenty exposures are varying apertures, then set the lens code to the one I've been using on the M9 and made another 20 exposures. Then I made exposures to test all ISO settings with the Nokton 50. I turned on Live View and experimented with the focusing.

    My impressions:

    - The M 240 shutter and overall responsiveness is FAR better than the M9. Feels right, doesn't feel laggy or get blocked up with multiple single shots.

    - The new viewfinder frame line illuminator is clean, crisp, and clear. Somehow, the view through viewfinder feels less cluttered. The rangefinder seemed about as crisp to align as with the M9, but overall the viewfinder experience is better.

    - Now at home, I've imported all the exposures into Lightroom 5.7.1. Auto white balance in the JPEGs and raws is improved over the M9 in all the various shots, it's right on the money in most cases.

    - All the shots where I was critically careful to set the focus and used ISO 1600 (high enough shutter speed) are bang on the money sharp, crisp, clean and noiseless. There is no banding apparent in any of the photos I made, even to the highest ISO setting.

    - There's neither degradation nor loss in the rendering character of the 'Lux 35 v2 or Nokton 50. (They're no better than I see on film or on the M9, and no worse either.) Didn't really look hard for the Ultron, but it seems to be a less prone to color shifting.

    - None of these three lenses, even with lens code set to OFF, show any color shifting. (The 28 and 35 show a very small amount with the M9.)

    To me, this is a no-brainer. The M typ 240 is simply a better Leica M than the M9. As one ought to expect from an updated model ...

    I've called Leica USA and confirmed that I'll take a black M-P on the exchange program. I'm mailing the check for it this afternoon ... They'll likely hold the check for two weeks or so, but eh? I don't use credit cards, and I'm not in a rush.

    onwards!

    G
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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Don't know what I'm going to do, Godfrey, but I really appreciate you sharing the process you've gone.are going through.

    (I'm gutless, still haven't sent my M9 in)
    my flickr
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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    Don't know what I'm going to do, Godfrey, but I really appreciate you sharing the process you've gone.are going through.
    You're welcome.

    As I said, for me it came down to the aesthetic decision of whether or not I felt the camera was worth spending the additional money for. After spending some time evaluating the M typ 240, I know I will like it more, and use it more, than I did the M9. That's worth it.

    The improved responsiveness is the biggest difference to me: the type 240 just feels, sounds right, works quickly, where the M9 simply always felt and sounded sluggish.

    Now on to other things while I wait for the M-P to arrive. :-)

    G
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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    I am sure you will like the new camera.

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    May be the "banding" is the alternating red and black bands... of the cloth :-)

    Enjoy your new M T240 when you get it!~

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Looking about at Ebay completed auctions and other vendors, $4200 seems pretty close to average market value for a clean M9 at present.
    G
    I see perfect copies for 3k on boards often.

    I paid 3500USD over a year ago for LN M9 with 5k clicks, and brand new sensor from Leica, which I found here, on this board.

    It's not new anymore


    DSC08945 by unoh7, on Flickr

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Indeed. All the more reason to go with a new M-P at discount!
    I'm looking forward to its arrival. :-)

    G

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Godfrey good luck with your decision about putting out $3750.00 plus some accesserory monies to upgrade the camera.

    I have enjoyed my M9 for the past four and one-half years. I do not make make an income from photography and do hope that I will see another four and one-half years of use, at a minimum, from the M9.

    I still enjoy using my Pentax K5IIs and film cameras as well.

    As I move closer to retirement and the choices for where I want to allocate available discretionary spending moves to the forefront, the quality and the enjoyment I have with the M9 has made it an easier decision for me.

    In the November/December time frame I thought about it, I considered it a luxury decision. Then a couple of recent forays into the health care system, including a CABG x 3, has slowed my replacement timeframe decision down.

    Choices are good and priorities change and as always,"Life is Grand!"

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Sea kayaker - the best camera is the one you have with you.
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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by cam View Post
    Don't know what I'm going to do, Godfrey, but I really appreciate you sharing the process you've gone.are going through.

    (I'm gutless, still haven't sent my M9 in)
    HI There Cam
    I can lend you an M240 for a week or so if it would help?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    If you have not seen dead/malfunctioning FM2n amateur cameras, take it from me, I have. I even have one that was not worth repairing.
    A broken tripod socket makes it not worth repairing. The tripod socket is mounted directly to the main casting; too much stress and the main casting breaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I seem to recall the first Nikon SLRs with Copal shutters were the models with the vertically running shutter in the late 1960s/early 1970s ... Nikkormat, I guess.
    Yup.

    The Copal Square shutter of that time was the basis of many cameras, offering a higher flash sync speed and low cost with good quality. The horizontal running shutters in Nikon RF and F series cameras up to the F3 was a Nikon design, I think.
    The early Nikon horizontal shutters were based on a Leica design.

    It makes sense for camera companies to go with a specialist vendor for the design and manufacture of the shutter.
    OTOH many of the German camera companies that did not have their own shutter designs no longer exist because the shutter makers they depended on didn't modernize. The mechanical Copal Square shutter in the Nikkormat was a marvel of simplicity and efficiency but it sacrificed longevity and adjustability.

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    A broken tripod socket makes it not worth repairing. The tripod socket is mounted directly to the main casting; too much stress and the main casting breaks.
    Nothing wrong with the tripod socket but everything to do with the worn plastic gears that move the shutter.

    (Doug, put that in to clarify the original post. I am not using the camera anymore.)

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    -
    To me, this is a no-brainer.
    But it may be worth anybody else with a corrosion problem that could be cloned out (like at the very edge of the frame) holding on and not saying anything to Leica just yet. Another year (or less) and a new model will be out and the 'up-grade/trade-in' path will be for the new camera not the M240.

    Steve

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    My update - my M9 didn't have the corrosion and was returned clean and ready to go from Leica Service USA. I took it out and shot it at an event last weekend, and remembered why I love the camera.

    Back from Service

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Indeed. All the more reason to go with a new M-P at discount!
    I'm looking forward to its arrival. :-)

    G
    When will it arrive Godfrey?

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    When will it arrive Godfrey?
    Well, they received my check a week ago. I understand from Roxana that they'll hold the check for about two weeks for deposit and posting, then ship. So probably ten days from now, around the 24th.

    Not fast, but I'm not in a hurry.

    G

    update: I was doing my accounting this morning. Between yesterday and today, the check for the M-P cleared the bank. Now I'll see how quickly Leica USA ships the M-P... :-)
    Last edited by Godfrey; 15th February 2015 at 09:01.

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Just got the word: the M-P has shipped from New Jersey. UPS tells me expected delivery is Friday ... Yay! :-)

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by seakayaker View Post
    FWIW, i called Leica NJ in December and arranged to have my M9 sent in for repair. They requested it arrive by January 15th for them to inspect. I received a letter this week stating that they will replace the sensor under the warranty program and the work should be completed by February 27th.

    So I am happy that this is coming to a satisfactory conclusion. I hope to enjoy several more years of use with the M9.

    Leica service continues to disappoint. Called them to inquire about my M9 repair which was sent in to have the sensor replaced,. I had received a letter from Leica stating the work should be completed by the February 27th.

    The response I received was that they did not have any sensors in stock and did not have an estimate of when they would arrive from Germany. I asked where I stood on the list when sensors did arrive, he could not provide an answer but remarked I should be close to the top of the list.

    I love the rangefinder experience but my experience with Leica certainly leaves me with an empty feeling. A phone call from them when they knew that they could not meet their estimated date of repair would go a long way in keeping a customer satisfied versus ignoring the customer.

    Perhaps it is just a strategy to have me go for the trade-in deal?

    ..... it just might work?

    Life's to short to get upset about it.

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Dan, of course I don't really know, but in your shoes I wouldn't read too much into the delay. From time to time, Leica NJ has sensor supply shortages, and more likely to happen under current conditions. Good luck with the repairs.
    --Mike

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    I've spoken with Roxanne, Jim, and Mark at Leica USA. Roxanne is generally the most helpful. When I called to ask about the M9 repair estimate and when I could expect to see it (about the end of January/beginning of Feb), she told me that it was going to take until early March to get it done because they were waiting on a shipment of sensors. I had to ask her about the upgrade, which she then quoted a price for. I called back two days later and placed the order.

    The M-P arrived Friday, 27 FEB, mostly because I mailed them a check and it took their accounting department two and a half weeks to process it.

    So, I wasn't expecting them to be fast but they did well enough.

    BTW, I'm loving the M-P. Very glad I sprung for it.

    G

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Godfrey, thank you for documenting the process and your experience with trading in your M9 for the MP 240. Additional thanks for posting the images.

    I called Leica customer service today in New Jersey and spoke with Jim and ordered a Silver MP.

    After sending my M9 in twice for sensor issues, the first time the camera was out of my hands for 10 weeks in 2013 and now a couple of months with no return date established, I decided to go ahead and take advantage of the trade in offer. Jim indicated that I should have the MP in my hands by the end of the week.

    ..... the journey continues.

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Dan,

    Good stuff. I hope you enjoy the M-P as much as I do. :-)

    G

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Sorry to rub it in, but my M6 has none of these problems. :-)

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    Re: M9 ... time for a time-out

    Quote Originally Posted by samuelphoto View Post
    Sorry to rub it in, but my M6 has none of these problems. :-)
    Neither does my M4-2. That doesn't make it at all relevant.

    G
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