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Thread: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

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    Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I'm wishing the ISO would be around a7s level, that will be cool

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    It would be cooler if there is an A7m.

    Have you heard of anyone having a backup for the MM (another MM)?

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    It would be cooler if there is an A7m.
    +1! There were rumors last year of a monochrome camera from Sony and I sure wish those would come true. As much as I love the images I've seen from the MM, I just couldn't bring myself to buy a digital rangefinder camera.

    Gary
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Gary, Despite the MM being the "cheapest" monochrome camera in the market, it is a real shame that it s out of reach of many talented and passionate photographers.

    I applaud Leica for bringing out the MM.

    I sincerely hope that there will be an A7m real soon.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    +1. I'm happy working with MM, WATE and MATE, but the expense of a body upgrade – at Leica prices – doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I borrowed an A7r and did test shots with it and MM, using the same lens. The 36MP sensor with Bayer array converted to BW offers very nearly the same IQ as 18MP MM without array/conversion. I wouldn't buy an A7r because of its shutter-shake problem, but the next generation with larger sensor and stable shutter would no doubt be an MM killer. If it were an A7m without Bayer array, that plus Leica/Zeiss lenses would be my IQ dream.

    Kirk

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    i'm thinking about trading my M240 for a monochrom again. but then i want to wait to see what this M240 Mono is all about

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Do it! I think the M240 mono will be a huge disappointment.

    I am very tempted by that silver MM on sale now. What a gorgeous piece!

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Do it! I think the M240 mono will be a huge disappointment.
    Why do you think this?

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I wouldn't expect to be disappointed by an 'M240M' (though perhaps overwhelmed by the price). The M240's Live View would be a considerable improvement over MM for the sort of work I do (landscapes). Viewfinder inaccuracy – esp. with WA and external finders – is a real problem. But live view would be like looking at the ground glass of a baby view camera (right side up, and already in BW!).

    An A7m or an A9 with BW conversion would be just about as good.

    Kirk
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 20th January 2015 at 19:27.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Why do you think this?
    Just a hunch.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    A 240 mono will be great

    I'll be able to afford an MM all that much sooner LOL
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    We can probably guess the maximum ISO of a theoretical M240 Monochrom by looking at the improvement from the M9 to the MM... The M9 maximum ISO 2500 went all the way to the M Monochrom's ISO 10,000. I'm not sure exactly how many stops that is (2 1/2 stops?) but I would argue that the maximum ISO on the M Monochrom is slightly more usable than the maximum ISO on the M9.

    Since the M240 has both a higher maximum ISO and higher maximum "usable" ISO than the M9, we could easily get 3 or more stops out of a M240 Monochrom. I doubt we quite get into A7S territory, but we are also talking 24 megapixels vs. 12 megapixels. I wouldn't be surprised if we get usable ISO 80,000. If that's the case then sign me up for one! My primary complaints about the M240 was the color rendering (no worries about that with a M240 Monochrom) and the lack of punch to the files compared to the CCD based Leicas. Losing the bayer filter by going Monochrom will bring the perceived sharpness of the files up and give us something more along what us CCD users wanted... Or maybe even better?

    This is only speculation but hey, that's all we can do in the meantime...

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Just a hunch.
    Your hunches usually turn out to be the truth Vivek

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Just a hunch.
    Only works if the midtone sensitivity and spread is close to the CCD ...

    And I assume that Leica knows the audience it has to please ... current as well as potential future owners.

    Well my MM is gone ... awaiting the new new thing ... until then I have regressed just to keep my sensitivity sharp.....



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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I have my reasons but would not second guess what Leica may or may not do. As of late they seem to be doing a very good job of polishing metal blocks. So, may be they will extend that attention to details to a bit more techically important things.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Do it! I think the M240 mono will be a huge disappointment.

    I am very tempted by that silver MM on sale now. What a gorgeous piece!
    It's lovely isn't it - I've teetered on the brink several times

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    It's lovely isn't it - I've teetered on the brink several times
    Oh yes! luckily someone bought it ending my misery.
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I have my reasons but would not second guess what Leica may or may not do. As of late they seem to be doing a very good job of polishing metal blocks. So, may be they will extend that attention to details to a bit more techically important things.
    Let's hope so, we'll just have to wait and see

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Do it! I think the M240 mono will be a huge disappointment.

    Given what we know about the current MM we could probably expect a new M240M to have the equivalent resolution of a 40mp colour sensor and 20,000 usable (not ugly) ISO, so essentially following the same small improvement ratio as the M240 had over the M9. The massive revolution in performance was the MM over the M9, and which also leapfrogged it well above the M240 for B&W work. That jump won't be seen again. So I think you could be correct Vivek, it comes down to EVF and a quieter shutter and the wildcard of will the CMOS sensor even be as nice as the CCD sensor anyway?

    Steve

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I have no reason to upgrade. My MM is just fine at high ISO and I like the rangefinder shooting experience much better than EVF/ live view and I certainly don't wnat more automation or video. So I will shoot with it until it dies and I can no longer get it repaired. No reason for me to upgrade. And price does suck but it sucks for most digital cameras. Some of the same people crying about the price of Leica don't think about dropping 8K for a top of the line Canon or Nikon. I'm old enough to remember when Leica M was over twice as much as the price of a Canon F-1 or Nikon F3. They were both top of the line.
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Come on Jono, we all know you are testing it now....

    As to price, i expect Leica will probably price the new MM at the same level as the current one, and lower the price of the current model. like they did in M240 and ME.

    I wouldn't buy a MM just now.... until the new one is out

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I sure hope the 240Mono is not a disappointment versus the lovely MM. As I have only one eye and need LV/EVF for ease of shooting especially with very wide and/or R lenses, I do not want it to be worse than the current model.

    In this case I hope Vivek is wrong. I must say I was a bit surprised Leica also discounted the MM black or silver $750 just like the M240.

    So let's discuss what could make an M240Mono image quality worse than the current MM.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    In this case I hope Vivek is wrong.
    I hope so too, Lou!

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    There will be a flood of messages about CCD vs CMOS image "look".
    Brad Husick
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    There will be a flood of messages about CCD vs CMOS image "look".
    If that refers to a thicker UV-IR cut filter (on CMOS sensor) then , yes. Another real issue is the battery life.

    If Leica go for a "full spectrum" (clear, thin cover glass) then I would buy one in a heartbeat but I do not think it will have many takers.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    There will be a flood of messages about CCD vs CMOS image "look".
    Is that relevant for a monochrome camera?

    Other than live-view/LCD viewing for non-rangefinder sort of work, I don't see the point.

    I would understand the switch to a CMOS just to move on from CCDs as a matter of economies of manufacture ... but seriously doubt anyone will be able to see a difference in the imagery either produces.

    Those with a MM and moving to a M240 based MM would be paying a bundle for not a lot of IQ advancements, (minuscule, if any).

    IMO, those without a MM and looking to the discipline of B&W rangefinder shooting would benefit from either camera ... one just being newer.

    - Marc
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    For me a M-type 240 based MM would be very welcome not because I expect much IQ improvements over the current MM but as an M type 240 user I would have 2 cameras with same battery,user interface and operating speed.
    With more operating speed maybe it would also be possible to include some film/tonecurve presets to the camera for those who do not want to have to postprocess each and any image.
    Regarding the cmoss ccd discussion, at least we/one would not have to discuss about color differences (or lack of).
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    As a MM user, I do not see the M240 Mono (if it comes) as being of interest. Yes, I would love a second body (but not to have to pay for it), but a 36mp bayerless sensor would make the use of my wonderful Leica lenses much more interesting versus the small jump from 18mp CCD to 24mp CMOS. I also feel the M240 is too heavy.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    As a MM user, I do not see the M240 Mono (if it comes) as being of interest. Yes, I would love a second body (but not to have to pay for it), but a 36mp bayerless sensor would make the use of my wonderful Leica lenses much more interesting versus the small jump from 18mp CCD to 24mp CMOS. I also feel the M240 is too heavy.
    I agree on the weight, which is one of the few things I dont like about the M type 240.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Being Leica, they could also shock us with a Platinum shutter release and such essential goodies.
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I agree with Marc, the CCD vs CMOS debate has largely centered around color results. The MM and M240 produce very different bw files, imo. However, I believe the M240 bw conversions are terrific in their own right.

    And yes, I was rather shocked to find out how more hefty the M240 is than my older digital M's. At least the form factor is closely similar and I'm enjoying shooting with it.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    The M9 (M9-P and M9-M) body/shell/electronics are awful. The M240 took care of a lot of those issues. Sure it's a bit heavier, and sure it has unnecessary features like LV and Movie mode.. But a M240-M would be a welcome upgrade from the M9-M.
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Those with a MM and moving to a M240 based MM would be paying a bundle for not a lot of IQ advancements, (minuscule, if any).


    - Marc
    Well have to wait and see about the IQ I'd say. BUT there's is always:

    Much improved rangefinder accuracy
    Much quieter shutter
    Weather sealed
    Less shutter lag
    Bigger buffer
    Longer battery life

    And that's just off the top of my head!

    All the best

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    The M9 (M9-P and M9-M) body/shell/electronics are awful. The M240 took care of a lot of those issues. Sure it's a bit heavier, and sure it has unnecessary features like LV and Movie mode.. But a M240-M would be a welcome upgrade from the M9-M.
    Forgot about the video!

    It would be wonderful to have HD video in monochrome!

    May be an extra battery grip as well?
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I prefer to wait and see whether a new camera is a disappointment rather than sitting around expecting it to be a disappointment.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well have to wait and see about the IQ I'd say. BUT there's is always:
    Much improved rangefinder accuracy
    Absolutely agree with that! My M240 is by far the most clear and accurate rangefinder that I've used, and I'm comparing that to a M4p, M7, M9, MM and Mamiya 7.

    Finding correct focus on an eye ball just seems obvious with the M240. It was explained to me in a dealer that the electronic frame lines have improved the contrast of the focusing patch. Maybe it's tighter manufacturing tolerances too.

    Either way, the M240 focusing is a reason alone why I await with much interest in a Monochrom version.
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Warwick View Post
    Maybe it's tighter manufacturing tolerances too.

    .
    Certainly I understand that there are considerably tighter tolerances. Added to which the fact that the rangefinder is now adjusted by instrument rather than by eye means that it's much more likely to be correct.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Better RF accuracy in a non live view camera makes more sense but this is Leica.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    The M9 (M9-P and M9-M) body/shell/electronics are awful. The M240 took care of a lot of those issues. Sure it's a bit heavier, and sure it has unnecessary features like LV and Movie mode.. But a M240-M would be a welcome upgrade from the M9-M.
    For me, LV is NOT an unnecessary feature, but then most photographers have 2 good eyes. Agree on ther Movie mode though.

    I've got one on order so that Vivek can buy some Leica product again at a later date.
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    For me, LV is NOT an unnecessary feature, but then most photographers have 2 good eyes. Agree on ther Movie mode though.

    I've got one on order so that Vivek can buy some Leica product again at a later date.

    Sure, I should have said unnecessary for me. I buy my M cameras for the RF function, and then for the aesthetics of the actual camera. Even if the Sony A7 got it's **** together and adapted well to M lenses, I'd still carry an M camera for the styling alone.

    Totally get where you're coming from though!

    And yes, all the other upgrades that everyone mentioned are welcome in an M240-M.
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I've got one on order so that Vivek can buy some Leica product again at a later date.
    Thank you! How did you manage to order one that is not even announced? It took me 2 waiting lists and help from a dealer to get the "unobtainable" MM. The lists got filled up 6-8months later. Leica is full of mysteries.

    Would get a personally engraved sample for preordering an unannounced camera?

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Better RF accuracy in a non live view camera makes more sense but this is Leica.
    Why?
    Better RF accuracy in an RF camera makes lots of sense (whether it has live view or not is irrelevant).

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I meant the RF cameras like M8/M9/M9P/MM that are without live view (I do not accept the claims of some that consider every RF camera as having "live view").

    If the RF goes out of whack (camera or lens) with the M240 and the like, one can always switch to live view via the LCD or the optional Olympus EVF.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    I really disliked that my Monochrom, now sold, didn't focus the 75mm Summicron very well. Having LV or an EVF might have played a part in me keeping both of them. I'm OK though with having the M240 and converting to B&W. I'm have perfectionist tendencies, but the general public does not.

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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    The M240 RF accuracy is a lot better than the M9/MM. The only issue is re-calibration of the RF requires that the M240 is sent to Solms and from Australia this takes about 6-8 weeks. Recently I have sold both my M240's after both bodies were required to be re calibrated after about 6 months. The M9/MM was great as the RF could be done locally and performed within a few days... none issue for a mechanical device IMO.

    I would love the M240 Mono, but the issues that need to be resolved IMO before I reconsider.
    (1) Servicing turn around less than 2 weeks. All that needs to be done is to ensure certified Leica repair centers can do the majority of adjustments as with the M9/MM.
    (2) Electronics/speed/issues to be resolved comparable to other FF 2015 cameras.
    (3) Responsive and high resolution EVF/LV. This is so handy with lenses like the 50 Nocti f/1.0 and 75 Lux.

    I love the RF way, but it is nice to have in parallel an excellent LV/EVF when needed.
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    http://kalnins.zenfolio.com
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  46. #46
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by segedi View Post
    I really disliked that my Monochrom, now sold, didn't focus the 75mm Summicron very well. Having LV or an EVF might have played a part in me keeping both of them. I'm OK though with having the M240 and converting to B&W. I'm have perfectionist tendencies, but the general public does not.
    Yeah the 75APO is a bit of a tough lens to use if your RF is failing you.
    Beautiful when you nail focus though!

  47. #47
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    with the ancient mm and 75 cron, my fave setup
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  48. #48
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    IMHO one of the biggest improvements that is required of the new Monochrom is metering. Everything else is very nice, but with no colour channel recovery, there is no margin for error with a monochrome sensor and, sadly, the metering on the MM is woefully inadequate. It is fine when shooting landscapes, but when you have no time for checking histograms etc, we need metering that will make sure no highlights are clipped when auto exposing, or perhaps even with a threshold, such as 1%, 2% clipping permitted etc, to allow for specular highlights.

  49. #49
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesK View Post
    The M240 RF accuracy is a lot better than the M9/MM. The only issue is re-calibration of the RF requires that the M240 is sent to Solms and from Australia this takes about 6-8 weeks. Recently I have sold both my M240's after both bodies were required to be re calibrated after about 6 months. The M9/MM was great as the RF could be done locally and performed within a few days... none issue for a mechanical device IMO.

    I would love the M240 Mono, but the issues that need to be resolved IMO before I reconsider.
    (1) Servicing turn around less than 2 weeks. All that needs to be done is to ensure certified Leica repair centers can do the majority of adjustments as with the M9/MM.
    (2) Electronics/speed/issues to be resolved comparable to other FF 2015 cameras.
    (3) Responsive and high resolution EVF/LV. This is so handy with lenses like the 50 Nocti f/1.0 and 75 Lux.

    I love the RF way, but it is nice to have in parallel an excellent LV/EVF when needed.
    Just yesterday I looked through both the VF2 with the X-VArio and the Visoflex for the T when I realized how much bigegr and better the new Visoflex EVF is.
    It would be great if - in case a new MM appears- it would work with this new viewfinder. However if its based on the M type 240 I doubt it. ;(
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  50. #50
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    Re: Is there really going to be a new Monochrom coming out in Feb?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    IMHO one of the biggest improvements that is required of the new Monochrom is metering. Everything else is very nice, but with no colour channel recovery, there is no margin for error with a monochrome sensor and, sadly, the metering on the MM is woefully inadequate. It is fine when shooting landscapes, but when you have no time for checking histograms etc, we need metering that will make sure no highlights are clipped when auto exposing, or perhaps even with a threshold, such as 1%, 2% clipping permitted etc, to allow for specular highlights.
    I felt the same until I sold off my Asph lenses and replaced them with lower contrast non-Asph glass. The issue went away immediately. Rarely clips the highlights now and the shadows don't need to be sacrificed. Asph is better with film imo.

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