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Thread: Anyone signed the petition?

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    Talking Anyone signed the petition?

    Apparently there is a campaign going on demanding that Leica bring back the CCD to their M line and drop the CMOS sensors!

    Anyone for it?

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Not personally. I'd like to see a CMOS sensor with output like that in the A7R in the next M.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    After comparing a M9 and M type 240 for months I finally decided for the new M and believe the CCD vs CMOS question is overrated (Just my opinion). IQ differences in direct comparison seemed to be much smaller and not allways in the same direction as I thought to remember.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    After comparing a M9 and M type 240 for months I finally decided for the new M and believe the CCD vs CMOS question is overrated (Just my opinion). IQ differences in direct comparison seemed to be much smaller and not allways in the same direction as I thought to remember.
    Tom, It is not a simple case of IQ, it seems. In your experience, do the Mandler lenses hold their magic on the new M or the newer design lenses (AA 50/2, AA75/2 and the like) do better?

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Tom, It is not a simple case of IQ, it seems. In your experience, do the Mandler lenses hold their magic on the new M or the newer design lenses (AA 50/2, AA75/2 and the like) do better?
    I do like the 35FLE, 35/2.0 Summicron asph, the 50 Summicron (not the latest version), the 50 APO Summicron a lot on the "new" M. For some reason I did like the 50/1.4asph better on the M9 but the 50 Summicron better on the M type 240.
    I think it is because the 50/1.4asph draws a little more reddish color and the Summicrons more subtile rendition which seems to work very well with the new M.
    I am not so much into old lenses, but these has been the case for the M9 allready. I sold my 75/1.4 long time ago and did not look back. I found f1.4 at 75mm in combi with slight focus shift hard to focus accurate.
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    I agree with Tom on the 50 APO + M240 combination vs. 50 Lux + M9.
    In fact, I sold my first M240 because I found it a bit lacking in "bite" with my old "trinity" of Elmarit 24Asph, 50 Lux and 90AA lenses - the lenses I liked a lot and used all the time on the M9. I use the M-P now and it sings with the 50AA (and also with the 35FLE, 75 Cron Apo, 28 Cron Asph & 135 Apo Telyt, in my experience). Of the above, the 28,50,135 are the only lenses I own now, and the 50Apo stays on the camera 90% of the time. As for the Mandler-era lenses, I liked them much more on the M9 (35Cron4, 28 Elmarit v.4 in particular; never liked the latest pre-apo 50 Cron, on any camera, due to its tendency to flare badly and produce a lot of moire on the M9).
    So no, I am not signing the petition, quite the opposite. Leica, please bring an even better CMOS sensor (with IS and dust removal, if I may ask).

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Tom, It is not a simple case of IQ, it seems. In your experience, do the Mandler lenses hold their magic on the new M or the newer design lenses (AA 50/2, AA75/2 and the like) do better?
    What is "better"? How are you evaluating these sorts of differences? Asking if the Mandler lenses "hold their magic on the new M" is like asking whether you prefer the rendering of a lens based on whether you're shooting with Kodachrome or Fujichrome. It doesn't make much sense to me.

    I have used my Leica-R lenses designed by Walter Mandler on the A7. Also the 'Lux 35 v2. Far as I'm concerned, their magic is part of the lens, not the sensor. As long as the sensor does a good job of recording what the lens is transmitting, you get the lens magic. The rest is up to rendering work.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    I won't sign the petition because I think it would be a huge business mistake for Leica to go backwards instead of continuing to go forwards. I like my M240. It could be better. But I love that I can put an EVF on it when needed. No more frustration with longer lenses. And now I have accurate framing with wides.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Apparently there is a campaign going on demanding that Leica bring back the CCD to their M line and drop the CMOS sensors!

    Anyone for it?
    I didn't sign it but the M240 in combination with what the A7 series is is why I don't own a Leica anymore. I loved the M9 but I loathed the M240 (albeit in fairness I didn't buy one or live with one for extended periods of time.)

    I believe many owners that suggest it is technically superior to the M9 in spec in pretty much every way but I found it subjectively inferior to the M9 in every possible way when it came down to output... Even more so when compared to the MM for grayscale imagery. Everything can't be measured quantitatively alone so I'd say there's room for both.

    I would push for Leica to adopt a custom Sony sensor over the CMOSIS ones though if they intend to stay with CMOS. The Sony A7 results look closer to the M9 output than the M240 could hope to.
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Well, I believe that the MM is the best digital M from Leica to date.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Well, I believe that the MM is the best digital M from Leica to date.
    I do as well even though I never owned one. Maybe I will someday though. I couldn't justify a grayscale camera being my main camera at the time but with being ecstatic overall with the FE system I always entertain the thought here and there.
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    CCD vs CMOS is a myth. There are far greater factors at play that determine IQ (however you want to translate the term IQ).

    I'd rather Leica focus on giving us more reliable equipment.
    I had a brand new S-system lens that was defective, and now my 1 week old S-006 is defective. I've had numerous problems with my M9 bodies (electronics) and M240 bodies (mostly RF problems, frame-lines).. A lot of lenses going out of alignment or not working to specs.
    I really love the systems, and the quality I get from the M and now S, but I think they need to focus their efforts on fixing old problems for good, and making more reliable cameras for the future.
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    IMO the posibility to be able to shoot up to ISO 3200 offers the photographer the freedom of choosing more often the F-Stop based on DOF requirement and not based on the amount of light available.
    Specially for the range finder, where super accurate focusing of people isnt that easy, it is a big advantage IMO.
    It also allows to mostly use the f2.0 lenses instead of f1.4, meaning smaller lenses which also makes sense for such system IMO.
    The higher DR is a plus as well in favor of the newer M-sensor.
    And color in artificial and mixed light seems more consistent.
    When comparing the images from these 2 sensors I think its important to know they need to be handled different. I usually expose a little less with the new M, and sometimes also add a little contrast in the tone curve afterwards.
    Also keep in mind that different software leads to different color. Quite a difference between LR, C1 and aparture IMO. For those who find color of the new M in artificial light a little pinkish might want to check out C1.

    So while I have allways found the M9 (and the M8) and the MM great cameras, my vote for the best digital rangefinder goes for the M type 240.
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    IMHO, it is already erroneous to be using the M240 as a reference point with regard to the Leica M's future. This is because it was the first generation of CMOS M and its successor is likely not that far away, judging by rumours of the announcement of the M240 Monochrom in a few days.

    Lets look and see what is coming in the next gen M, as that will tell us how comprehensive a set of improvements Leica has been able to make on the existing CMOS platform. Maybe they will release a turkey, but I doubt it. I suspect there will be cries of 'not quite enough resolution - where are our 50MP... what, only 14 stops DR' etc, but more serious and sensible users will be quietly nodding at the improved integration of technologies and overall utility.

    IMHO it is usually inexperienced photographers who cannot understand utility and the user's input when it comes to great images and instead fixate upon very specific imaging characteristics which they regard as crucial to their photography. I am not defending the M240 here - after all I bought a MM instead - but suggesting that Leica will surely make good progress, because they will not be ploughing their limited resources into reinventing the wheel, but making the existing one a lot better. I hope.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    As I am on the fence to buy back into Leica M with either a used M9 or a new M240, after reading this thread I think I will keep my breath for a while and wait for the next generation M240 (M260 or however it will be called).

    I am a believer in CMOS and I trust Leica that they will enhance the capabilities of their sensor and processing engine in the next model - keeping resolution increase moderate (maybe around 30MP if at all), improve DR (>14 stops) and high ISO usability (fully useable ISO 6400) plus make the processing lot faster and add a higher resolution EVF option (>2.4MP). At the same time keep all the goodies of the current M240 such as battery life, excellent rangefinder etc. What I would like them to add is ultrasonic sensor cleaning, this cannot be so difficult but is a big advantage while using the camera in the field.

    I keep fingers crossed
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    As I am on the fence to buy back into Leica M with either a used M9 or a new M240, after reading this thread I think I will keep my breath for a while and wait for the next generation M240 (M260 or however it will be called).

    I am a believer in CMOS and I trust Leica that they will enhance the capabilities of their sensor and processing engine in the next model - keeping resolution increase moderate (maybe around 30MP if at all), improve DR (>14 stops) and high ISO usability (fully useable ISO 6400) plus make the processing lot faster and add a higher resolution EVF option (>2.4MP). At the same time keep all the goodies of the current M240 such as battery life, excellent rangefinder etc. What I would like them to add is ultrasonic sensor cleaning, this cannot be so difficult but is a big advantage while using the camera in the field.

    I keep fingers crossed
    I'm on the hook making the decision to either have my M9 sensor replaced or front the exchange money for a new M-P. They won't offer the exchange for a camera they've not even announced yet... ;-)

    Personally, I've not seen much different between M9 and M typ 240 for my photography with respect to image quality; what I have seen (less moire, more resolution, more sensitivity, easier to process files) seems to be on the side of going for the new camera. Same goes for responsiveness and all the other benefits of the newer model.

    My only concern is financial: the M-P will cost me a good bit out of pocket even though Leica's exchange value is quite a fair deal. That and the fact that I still do like the M9 anyway.

    I'm going to the store to handle and do some test shots with an M typ 240 today, see if I can come to a decision.

    G

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I'm on the hook making the decision to either have my M9 sensor replaced or front the exchange money for a new M-P. They won't offer the exchange for a camera they've not even announced yet... ;-)

    Personally, I've not seen much different between M9 and M typ 240 for my photography with respect to image quality; what I have seen (less moire, more resolution, more sensitivity, easier to process files) seems to be on the side of going for the new camera. Same goes for responsiveness and all the other benefits of the newer model.

    My only concern is financial: the M-P will cost me a good bit out of pocket even though Leica's exchange value is quite a fair deal. That and the fact that I still do like the M9 anyway.

    I'm going to the store to handle and do some test shots with an M typ 240 today, see if I can come to a decision.

    G
    Godfrey,

    would really love to hear your decision ....

    Peter

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I'm on the hook making the decision to either have my M9 sensor replaced or front the exchange money for a new M-P. They won't offer the exchange for a camera they've not even announced yet... ;-)

    Personally, I've not seen much different between M9 and M typ 240 for my photography with respect to image quality; what I have seen (less moire, more resolution, more sensitivity, easier to process files) seems to be on the side of going for the new camera. Same goes for responsiveness and all the other benefits of the newer model.

    My only concern is financial: the M-P will cost me a good bit out of pocket even though Leica's exchange value is quite a fair deal. That and the fact that I still do like the M9 anyway.

    I'm going to the store to handle and do some test shots with an M typ 240 today, see if I can come to a decision.

    G
    I think handling both and takin some images is a good idea.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Repeating this post from my "...time out..." thread.

    >> Okay ... made my decision.

    I stopped in at the camera shop and spent an hour and some with an M typ 240 and the three lenses that are the bulk of what I've been using on the M9—Summilux 35/1.4 v2, Nokton 50/1.5 (LTM), and Ultron 28/2. I set the 240 to JPEG+raw.

    For each lens, I set the lens code to OFF and made twenty exposures are varying apertures, then set the lens code to the one I've been using on the M9 and made another 20 exposures. Then I made exposures to test all ISO settings with the Nokton 50. I turned on Live View and experimented with the focusing.

    My impressions:

    - The M 240 shutter and overall responsiveness is FAR better than the M9. Feels right, doesn't feel laggy or get blocked up with multiple single shots.

    - The new viewfinder frame line illuminator is clean, crisp, and clear. Somehow, the view through viewfinder feels less cluttered. The rangefinder seemed about as crisp to align as with the M9, but overall the viewfinder experience is better.

    - Now at home, I've imported all the exposures into Lightroom 5.7.1. Auto white balance in the JPEGs and raws is improved over the M9 in all the various shots, it's right on the money in most cases.

    - All the shots where I was critically careful to set the focus and used ISO 1600 (high enough shutter speed) are bang on the money sharp, crisp, clean and noiseless. There is no banding apparent in any of the photos I made, even to the highest ISO setting.

    - There's neither degradation nor loss in the rendering character of the 'Lux 35 v2 or Nokton 50. (They're no better than I see on film or on the M9, and no worse either.) Didn't really look hard for the Ultron, but it seems to be a less prone to color shifting.

    - None of these three lenses, even with lens code set to OFF, show any color shifting. (The 28 and 35 show a very small amount with the M9.)

    To me, this is a no-brainer. The M typ 240 is simply a better Leica M than the M9. As one ought to expect from an updated model ...

    I've called Leica USA and confirmed that I'll take a black M-P on the exchange program. I'm mailing the check for it this afternoon ... They'll likely hold the check for two weeks or so, but eh? I don't use credit cards, and I'm not in a rush.

    onwards!

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Godfrey,

    thanks for your test and sharing your findings - I had the feeling this would be the result after all my own investigations too - great to hear that confirmed!

    Also for me is now clear - no used M9, rather go for the M240 or wait till next release!

    Peter

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Too late to sign the petition as I pushed the "buy" button for a M60 last night.
    Last edited by retow; 4th February 2015 at 22:30.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Godfrey,

    thanks for your test and sharing your findings - I had the feeling this would be the result after all my own investigations too - great to hear that confirmed!

    Also for me is now clear - no used M9, rather go for the M240 or wait till next release!

    Peter
    Peter,
    if I were you I would try to find a DEMO or slightly used M in very good condition. That way you wouldnt loose too much money when a new model is released.
    Or - if you are patient, wait for a new model, without knowing if you will hold it in your hands in 15 weeks or in 15 months

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Meh, what a monumental waste of time.

    Leica is on record as saying CMOS is the future ... then made good on that by changing both their flagship cameras to CMOS sensors (M(240) and S(007). They are temporarily hedging their bet by offering the ME and SE CCD cameras, but those cameras are obviously not Leica's focus.

    As to Leica adopting a Sony CMOS sensor I ask why then would I pay $7K to 8K for a Leica when a Sony cost $1.7K? Just for a rangefinder that can take tack-ons to make it more like the Sony?

    Hopefully, Leica will stay the course, and keep developing their own approach to a M CMOS even if the current one is lacking in some folks eyes (including mine BTW).

    Despite working with Sony cameras since early 2009, I ... do ... not ... like ... my current Sony stuff. It is convenient. It is technologically advanced ... all the utilitarian boxes are checked ... but it leaves me cold ... in use, and especially the image qualities.

    Sony seemed on the right path with the A900 ... then went all techno geek, consumer fluffin-stuff to check off all the "Wants 'N Gimmes" of as many people as they could ... (especially the highly vocal and endlessly argumentative techno geek, pixel peeping, DR demanding folks) ... which is typical Sony mass-marketing mentality.

    IMHO, Leica would do well to avoid anything to do with Sony's homogenization of the camera world.

    Meanwhile, I'd agree that Leica needs to tighten up their quality on all fronts. If I have one more S lens go down on me, I will scream loud enough for Germany to hear me all the way from here.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    +1.

    I could not help a big YAWN.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Meh, what a monumental waste of time.
    .....
    .....
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Peter,
    if I were you I would try to find a DEMO or slightly used M in very good condition. That way you wouldnt loose too much money when a new model is released.
    Or - if you are patient, wait for a new model, without knowing if you will hold it in your hands in 15 weeks or in 15 months
    For anyone local to the San Francisco Bay Area who might be in the market, Keeble & Shuchat Photography in Palo Alto has an extremely minty second-hand black Leica M typ 240 for sale at present. The camera is as new far as I can see, some incredibly small number of exposures made with it, in the box with all bits as originally sold. I think my buddy there told me they want $5500 or $5400 for it.

    And, btw, if anyone would like a black Artisan & Artist leather half-case for M9 (MM, M-E too, I believe), an excellent condition M9 battery (also for M8, MM, M-E, 3 available), or a charger (2 available), let me know and I'll work you a good deal. :-)

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 5th February 2015 at 12:09.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    For the reasons stated re M(240) vs M9, as well as my own impressions having owned both, I would not sign such a petition.

    IMHO the M(240) is superior. I agree that CMOS vs CCD is an issue that is overblown. The industry is not going back to CCDs and neither should Leica.
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Well, I believe that the MM is the best digital M from Leica to date.
    It sure is. Just waiting for some sensors to become available so mine can be replaced.

    The MM also shows that it's not about megapixels.

    I also think the ability to use higher ISOs on either an MM or M240 is something that is often overlooked in these debates (although the discussion here is far more mature than on one of the other forums!).

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    I didn't miss anything about the M8 when I used the M9, and I don't miss anything about the M9 now that I use an M240. It's all been very straightforward progress from my standpoint.
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I didn't miss anything about the M8 when I used the M9, and I don't miss anything about the M9 now that I use an M240. It's all been very straightforward progress from my standpoint.
    Totally agree.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    I didn't miss anything about the M8 when I used the M9, and I don't miss anything about the M9 now that I use an M240. It's all been very straightforward progress from my standpoint.
    +1

    I wasn't planning to buy the M-P when my M9 sensor came up with problems, but I am glad I did. The M-P is simply a better camera in every particular. I am delighted with it.

    G

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Personally I prefer the M240 files to the M9. Yes the M9 files had certain 'bite' but I find the M240 files to be neutral and have a much better dynamic range and are thus more malleable for post processing. In fact I find it quite easy to get the same sort of out-of-camera look from the M files that I used to get with the M9. Of course there are the other advantages of LV and better high iso.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Good discussion
    Like David, Godfrey, Amin and others I've come to love the files from the M240. Of course they're different . . . but I think that difference is very unlikely to relate to inherent differences between CCD and CMOS. Especially in terms of colour (which is what's usually spoken about).

    Let's face it, the sensor only collects light intensity, not colour values, which come from the Bayer filter and the subsequent de-mosaicing algorithms (which are firmware and not hardware dependent).

    It'll be fascinating to see how the argument develops if Leica produce a CMOS monochrom camera.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Let's face it, the sensor only collects light intensity, not colour values, which come from the Bayer filter and the subsequent de-mosaicing algorithms (which are firmware and not hardware dependent).
    The difference though comes from what is in front of the sensor. CCD (UV/IR) filtration is more straightforward than it is required for a CMOS sensor is my understanding.

    Although, now, we do know the perils of a thin filter in terms of longevity. There is a great cottage industry going now trying to emulate the M9 performance in Sony A7 cams. They will be met with similar fate.

    I fully support Leica shifting to CMOS from CCD. There is absolutely no way the camera industry is going back to CCD.

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    A CMOS well may indeed have a different quantum efficiency (the probability that a photon is captured, releasing an electron) as a function of the photon's wavelength than the NMOS wells used in CCDs. The UV/IR filter layer was 0.5mm of a greenish Schott glass in the M8 and 0.8 mm of probably the same stuff in the M9 and M[240]. These and the side effects of the support circuitry that stands between pressing the shutter and getting out a raw file are so deep in the secret sauce that we are free to speculate about them forever, basing the speculations on the firm evidence of our own observations. (Just like the improvements in AF performance that are reported with every firmware update.)

    Dave Farkas showed pretty clearly that in all but images of extreme DR, even LightRoom's restricted controls could make M9 and M[240] images practically indistinguishable. Photoshop and CaptureOne have very complex color curve editors that can do even more but I, at least, haven't got the time, and am not sensitive enough to color nuance to spend that time. I use an M9 sometimes for a consistent look in a never-finishing project that started with the M9, have an M8 still for old time's sake but haven't used it in over a year, and prefer the M[240] for everything because it just works better.

    scott
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Meh, what a monumental waste of time.

    Leica is on record as saying CMOS is the future ... then made good on that by changing both their flagship cameras to CMOS sensors (M(240) and S(007). They are temporarily hedging their bet by offering the ME and SE CCD cameras, but those cameras are obviously not Leica's focus.

    As to Leica adopting a Sony CMOS sensor I ask why then would I pay $7K to 8K for a Leica when a Sony cost $1.7K? Just for a rangefinder that can take tack-ons to make it more like the Sony?

    Hopefully, Leica will stay the course, and keep developing their own approach to a M CMOS even if the current one is lacking in some folks eyes (including mine BTW).

    Despite working with Sony cameras since early 2009, I ... do ... not ... like ... my current Sony stuff. It is convenient. It is technologically advanced ... all the utilitarian boxes are checked ... but it leaves me cold ... in use, and especially the image qualities.

    Sony seemed on the right path with the A900 ... then went all techno geek, consumer fluffin-stuff to check off all the "Wants 'N Gimmes" of as many people as they could ... (especially the highly vocal and endlessly argumentative techno geek, pixel peeping, DR demanding folks) ... which is typical Sony mass-marketing mentality.

    IMHO, Leica would do well to avoid anything to do with Sony's homogenization of the camera world.

    Meanwhile, I'd agree that Leica needs to tighten up their quality on all fronts. If I have one more S lens go down on me, I will scream loud enough for Germany to hear me all the way from here.

    - Marc

    EXACTLY what he said!

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post

    Dave Farkas showed pretty clearly that in all but images of extreme DR, even LightRoom's restricted controls could make M9 and M[240] images practically indistinguishable. Photoshop and CaptureOne have very complex color curve editors that can do even more but I, at least, haven't got the time, and am not sensitive enough to color nuance to spend that time. I use an M9 sometimes for a consistent look in a never-finishing project that started with the M9, have an M8 still for old time's sake but haven't used it in over a year, and prefer the M[240] for everything because it just works better.

    scott
    The David Farkas study shows that the differences are trivial to all but a few who continue to believe they can spot a CCD image and distinguish it from a CMOS image. I don't think most people looking at photos in a gallery gives a hoot about what kind of sensor was used or could tell the difference if their life depended upon it.

    Moreover, for Leica to bring back CCD sensors is a huge mistake IMHO because Leica does not make its own sensors, and has to rely on others. Most of not all of the recent technical development effort has gone to CMOS sensors, so if we want Leica to have up to date sensors in its cameras (I do) they are going to be CMOS, like it or not, and regardless of whether a few hundred people sign a petition. That is reality.
    Alan

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Um, I hate to point out the obvious, but Leica has not stopped selling an M with a CCD. The M-E is still in production. So are people simply petitioning Leica to make a camera they are already making? The outrage!
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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    Um, I hate to point out the obvious, but Leica has not stopped selling an M with a CCD. The M-E is still in production. So are people simply petitioning Leica to make a camera they are already making? The outrage!
    You make too much sense!

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Despite working with Sony cameras since early 2009, I ... do ... not ... like ... my current Sony stuff. It is convenient. It is technologically advanced ... all the utilitarian boxes are checked ... but it leaves me cold ... in use, and especially the image qualities.

    Sony seemed on the right path with the A900 ... then went all techno geek, consumer fluffin-stuff to check off all the "Wants 'N Gimmes" of as many people as they could ... (especially the highly vocal and endlessly argumentative techno geek, pixel peeping, DR demanding folks) ... which is typical Sony mass-marketing mentality.

    IMHO, Leica would do well to avoid anything to do with Sony's homogenization of the camera world.

    Meanwhile, I'd agree that Leica needs to tighten up their quality on all fronts.

    - Marc
    +1. Wow!

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    Re: Anyone signed the petition?

    The point of any sensor is to accurately reproduce what is in front of it. If every camera manufacturer produced the "ideal" sensor, the output would be identical.
    Will

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