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Thread: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

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    Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Had some issues with focusing and a rough test showed that my rangefinder was focusing about 15% in front of the actual focus point per the EVF and focus aid.

    I had read some old thread about problems communicating with DAG Camera, but I wrote an email and got replies right away, even on Sunday! (which I did not expect at all).

    Anyway, I wrapped my M240 and 3 lenses and will send them to DAG Camera tomorrow when the USPS runs again. I'm excited about getting the focus re-calibrated in the camera and getting the lenses calibrated as well. Getting the sensor professionally cleaned will be a nice plus as well.

    Now I'll just have to play with the RD-1 or the EM-1 until the Leica returns. Or may be I should shoot film for a bit
    Last edited by silver92b; 16th February 2015 at 20:20.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    I had DAG calibrate all of my lenses for the same M9 body at once, and am really glad I did so. I enjoyed film in the meantime but was happier when the M9 made its way back home.
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quick question.. Does DAG calibrate the rangefinder, or does he mess about with the lenses so they work on said out of alignment rangefinder?

    I tried to buy a RF adjustment machine off of Leica for the M240, and I was told it was so prohibitively expensive, they don't even have one in North America service centre yet.

    So with that said, how does DAG align the rangefinder? And if he doesn't, then I'd say it's a bad idea to get your lenses pushed out of spec to suit your RF.

    I would clarify the process with DAG.
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    In addition to that when the camera is under warranty why would this need to be paid for to be calibrated elsewhere?

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Sometimes it's just easier to get your outfit calibrated together by a technician who knows his stuff. I also paid to have my M9 outfit with all lenses calibrated together by Don and it was worth every penny.

    Was the RF calibrated or were the lenses calibrated to RF? It didn't matter because the outfit was accurate way beyond the degree that any of the gear was together from the factory. If the leica factory reference was accurate across the board for all bodies and lenses over time then sure it would make sense for them to do the calibration but their reputation (historically) hasn't been great. IMHO.

    I don't have my system now but it started with a new Noctilux that was out by a mile straight from the factory ... DAG calibrated the M9, WATE, 21 Lux, 35 lux, Noctilux and 90 Elmarit-M perfectly together.

    Of course, if you're constantly changing your leica gear, maybe a DAG calibration doesn't make so much sense.
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    +1 for Don.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    ...
    I don't have my system now but it started with a new Noctilux that was out by a mile straight from the factory ... DAG calibrated the M9, WATE, 21 Lux, 35 lux, Noctilux and 90 Elmarit-M perfectly together.
    ...
    Just out of curiosity, how much did that job cost? Body and five lenses ...

    G

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Quick question.. Does DAG calibrate the rangefinder, or does he mess about with the lenses so they work on said out of alignment rangefinder?

    I tried to buy a RF adjustment machine off of Leica for the M240, and I was told it was so prohibitively expensive, they don't even have one in North America service centre yet.

    So with that said, how does DAG align the rangefinder? And if he doesn't, then I'd say it's a bad idea to get your lenses pushed out of spec to suit your RF.

    I would clarify the process with DAG.

    He can calibrate the rangefinder as well as lenses.

    DAG has Leitz test equipment.

    I've sent him many M9s and lenses, new out of the box, for calibration. Many other forum members have done so, too. Refer to emails below:


    Robert,

    Yes, proper collimators, shims & magnification optics. I have lenses made of tool steel by Leitz, Infinity targets, 1 meter test stand & 35 years of adjusting Leica R/Fs.

    regards,

    Don
    DAG


    May not be a bad idea to at least send one lens just so we can both agree that the camera & that lens focus right and that's because so many lenses seem to be front or back focusing & I'm adjusting the focus perhaps to the thickness of scotch tape (or less) & that can really make a big difference with the M8, 9 cameras. Film cameras wouldn't even notice it. I try to get these M8, 9 cameras out within a week's time
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    First of all.. Nothing wrong with DAG. He calibrated a 50 sonar for use at 1.5 I guess you call it optimising it. Fantastic job.

    The owner isn't talking about a M9, he's talking about an M240. And the calibration process is completely different. Before the M9 was done by hand. Now the M240 is done by machine. AFAIK from what I was told by Leica, you can not hand calibrate it.

    So what DAG would essentially have to do is calibrate the lenses to fit the camera. There are a whole ton of problems associated with doing that. Least of which is that you'll never get a new lens that works with your camera.

    GrahamWelland - I'm sure he did a good job with your setup, and if you've got a fixed number of lenses and you don't buy or sell them. You're set.

    I'm not going to get into details about why you shouldn't adjust lenses to suit camera bodies. I'm just going to tell you that it's best to have everything brought back to factory defaults. And yes, sometimes Leica has mishaps with new lenses.. But again, sending a lens in to be put back to factory specs is a lot easier then having to send your whole setup in.


    I have numerous issues with Leica. Their NJ customer service department is awful, and Germany is slow. But it's still a better idea to go with factory default settings.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    According to DAG when I spoke with him, he adjusts the M240 in the same manner as M9.

    The camera is adjusted to factory specs, and the lens is adjusted to factory specs (independently.)

    He indicated it would be an extreme circumstance if, after this, things were still misfocusing.

    He did say that longer lenses (135/2.8 in particular) are sometimes best calibrated to a specific camera.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    When I spoke with Don from DAG, I discussed RF adjustment for my M240. Sending the lenses was an afterthought but a good one since I understand that lenses often need adjustment and calibration, and they perform immensely better after such service.

    As far as warranty goes, I do not have it since a purchased my camera used and Leica does not allow warranty transfer. The package went out today as USPS did not work yesterday. It was more convenient to ship them via USPS than UPS or FEDEX this time.

    Don was very easy to contact, and very easy to communicate with. DAG has a pretty good reputation in general and for doing this kind of work in particular. I was very reassured after my communications with him and I am looking forward to getting my equipment back in top condition. I wish I could get the same service done to my RD-1 after having it checked to see if it needs it.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Again, DAG is great. I'm just curious as to why Leica told me the M240 could not be calibrated by hand. And that it required special machinery that was built by Leica for Leica.

    It's not like they're trying to get you to use them. Considering my work is done for free under warranty.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    aDaam007,
    You are mixing two different issues, the rangefinder calibration and the positioning of the captor.
    What can be done (i think) only in Germany since there are nowhere else the adequate machines is setting the captor exact focus plane positioning.
    If the problem comes from there then you have to send your camera to Leica Germany.
    For a rangefinder calibration nothing changed since the M3 or about, except tolerances and the job can be done accuretely anywhere with simple availiable tools.
    Best,

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Biglou - I understand what you're talking about, but I'm unsure that the RF mechanism is the same as the M9/M3 etc. Or at least Leica has told me otherwise.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Biglou - I understand what you're talking about, but I'm unsure that the RF mechanism is the same as the M9/M3 etc. Or at least Leica has told me otherwise.
    OK, I really don't know about this, but logically the RF focusing mechanism must be very, very similar to all the rangefinder Leica bodies. Otherwise, the lenses would not work.... The lens focusing ring moves a cam in the camera body which makes the RF work. AFAIK, the linkage from the RF cam to to focus patch is not electronic, but even if if was, the mechanical actuation is still the same.

    Good question though... I wonder if any of the cognoscenti would care to opine..

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    I stick with my answer, adjust the M240 is even easier than previous models because you can check what you do using the EVF magnification.
    Nonetheless i would advise to send it to a good repairman.
    Problems may arise from sensor position, lens or rangefinder calibration, if you have no idea or are not used to manual fine tune better let someone qualified do it.
    Best

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    First of all.. Nothing wrong with DAG. He calibrated a 50 sonar for use at 1.5 I guess you call it optimising it. Fantastic job.

    The owner isn't talking about a M9, he's talking about an M240. And the calibration process is completely different. Before the M9 was done by hand. Now the M240 is done by machine. AFAIK from what I was told by Leica, you can not hand calibrate it.

    So what DAG would essentially have to do is calibrate the lenses to fit the camera. There are a whole ton of problems associated with doing that. Least of which is that you'll never get a new lens that works with your camera.

    GrahamWelland - I'm sure he did a good job with your setup, and if you've got a fixed number of lenses and you don't buy or sell them. You're set.

    I'm not going to get into details about why you shouldn't adjust lenses to suit camera bodies. I'm just going to tell you that it's best to have everything brought back to factory defaults. And yes, sometimes Leica has mishaps with new lenses.. But again, sending a lens in to be put back to factory specs is a lot easier then having to send your whole setup in.


    I have numerous issues with Leica. Their NJ customer service department is awful, and Germany is slow. But it's still a better idea to go with factory default settings.
    Sorry, this is nonsense. Any technician will calibrate the system to the common standard. Otherwise one could not use another lens or body on it.
    In fact, nowadays technicians will use an M240 body and EVF to adjust lenses. Will van Manen told me he finds that even more exact than his 60 cm Collimator, and the 240 costs a lot less.
    The mechanism on the 240 has not changed, except for the vertical adjustment which as a more stable hex screw.
    Leica asks customers to send the whole system as well. For two reasons: they do not trust the diagnosis by the customer and in some cases they will do tolerance matching.
    The adjustment by Leica is not “done by a machine” It is a manual process....
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    The adjustment by Leica is not “done by a machine” It is a manual process....
    That is not what Adam alluded to. It may be a manual process but uses a sophisticated machine that can not be matched by an EVF.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by jaapv View Post
    Sorry, this is nonsense. Any technician will calibrate the system to the common standard. Otherwise one could not use another lens or body on it.
    In fact, nowadays technicians will use an M240 body and EVF to adjust lenses. Will van Manen told me he finds that even more exact than his 60 cm Collimator, and the 240 costs a lot less.
    The mechanism on the 240 has not changed, except for the vertical adjustment which as a more stable hex screw.
    Leica asks customers to send the whole system as well. For two reasons: they do not trust the diagnosis by the customer and in some cases they will do tolerance matching.
    The adjustment by Leica is not “done by a machine” It is a manual process....
    jaapv - You're always jumping on the forums slinging facts with such vigour. I don't always agree with what you say, but it's fun to read your declarations.

    Today because you're twisting my words to try and prove a point I'll chime in again.

    First to clarify, you're saying what I said is nonsense. But then you reiterate exactly what I said. To clarify I said that by adjusting the lenses to suit a misaligned body, you're creating problems. I didn't get into details, but I'm sure you can dream up all the problems associated with funny calibrated lenses. So we both agree on something, why is that nonsense? Just trying to discredit me? Or do you not think people who service Leica gear would be so irresponsible?

    Next you said technicians will use an M240 body and EVF to adjust lenses.. Sure, you can do that with or without EVF... BTW nobody said you couldn't adjust the lens to begin with, especially not me. But that's assuming the M240 has been adjusted to factory specs. What if the M240 is off? Then you're adjusting lenses to fit a defective body. Which is what I don't agree with. Which is what will cause problems, which is what I said in my earlier post.

    Now, a machine does the adjusting to factory specs. I was told this directly by more then one person at Leica Germany. If someone at Leica is lying to me. Or misunderstood my questions about RF calibration, then that's fine. But I did put the disclaimer "AFAIK from what I was told by Leica".

    If you're telling me that they ask for all your gear because they don't trust the user and also because they want to do tolerance adjustments to lenses and camera bodies. Then why is it that sometimes I just send in my M240s and sometimes I send in only my lenses. Other times I send everything in? How come when I send a 50 Noctilux in with my M240 and it comes back perfect, the lens will also work with my other 3 M240 bodies?

    Why is it that I have 4 M240 bodies that work perfectly with all my lenses. But sometimes one of my bodies will fall out of alignment and work with none, and all I have to do is send the body into Leica and it comes back working with all my lenses?

    Simple answer. There is a baseline that works 99% of the time. Leica now uses a machine to adjust the M240 for that baseline. The tolerances have changed on the RF mechanism, they can reach the baseline more accurately now (less +/- tolerance adjustments). And the RF mechanism is a bit more durable, shouldn't fail as often.

    Now, when the baseline adjustment doesn't work. They'll probably have to do a bit of fiddling. Usually though, the baseline works.


    Anyway, ask Leica how they adjust the RF in the M240. It doesn't matter though, my point still holds true. If the M240 cannot be adjusted by hand accurately to its baseline. Then you have to adjust the lenses to suit a non-baseline camera. And that causes problems for everyone. There is no nonsense in that statement.

    ----

    I was only bewildered by DAG being able to work with M240 cameras, as when I spoke with Leica on one of the two/three occasions it came up in conversation, I asked if I could buy one of those RF M240 calibration machines. I was told no, and that it was prohibitively expensive to manufacture. Therefore not something they'd consider selling. I was also told on another occasion that the M240 needs to be set to baseline in Germany, and that lenses can be adjusted anywhere Leica has a service centre (if the lens is the problem).

    Which again, begs my question. If the OP has a misaligned camera, and his lenses are fine. Then will DAG adjust the lenses to suit the off-baseline camera body? If so... That's ridiculous.

    If DAG can reset the M240 to baseline.. Then no worries. But as far as I've been told by Leica, you can't do it accurately without a machine.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post

    I was only bewildered by DAG being able to work with M240 cameras, as when I spoke with Leica on one of the two/three occasions it came up in conversation, I asked if I could buy one of those RF M240 calibration machines. I was told no, and that it was prohibitively expensive to manufacture. Therefore not something they'd consider selling. I was also told on another occasion that the M240 needs to be set to baseline in Germany, and that lenses can be adjusted anywhere Leica has a service centre (if the lens is the problem).

    Which again, begs my question. If the OP has a misaligned camera, and his lenses are fine. Then will DAG adjust the lenses to suit the off-baseline camera body? If so... That's ridiculous.

    If DAG can reset the M240 to baseline.. Then no worries. But as far as I've been told by Leica, you can't do it accurately without a machine.
    So in essence what you are saying is that DAG cannot adjust the RF of a M240 camera because only Leica can do it in Germany? I'm a little unsettled by this. I will say that I was influenced by a couple of things. One was that there are recommendations and endorsements of DAGs work on line. Also, I spoke with Don directly and he told me that DAG could indeed correct the issue. I had also spoken to another shop in California about the camera and the issues I had. They also said that they could do the necessary work and the cost was comparable.

    You might be right and I might end up screwed out of my money and with unusable lenses to boot. But I am hoping that these guys (DAG and the other) know what they are doing and did not lie to me. It is interesting that you have this input and this opinion. I don't believe you are just trying to stir up controversy and that the Leica folks told what you say, but I sincerely hope that you are wrong. I'll have a chance to find out once the camera and lenses return from DAG.

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Personally, I would accept Don's word as to what he can and cannot do, regardless what the Leica folks have to say about it. DAG has done work for me that Leica or Minox would never attempt, successfully. That's one reason why good third party repair techs continue to survive and be successful.

    G
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    silver92b - DAG is reputable, if he says he can get the M240 back to baseline, and then adjust any problematic lenses back to baseline as well, then might as well give it a try. Just because Germany uses a machine for "perfect" alignment, doesn't mean someone cannot do it by hand. I was just shocked to hear because of what Leica told me.


    Also I forgot about this occasion in the early M240 days:

    My experience seems to back up Leica's claim. I was in Japan, and had with me only my Noctilux. It was to spec, but my M240 had developed a problem (read on to know why I know it's my M240). They (Leica Germany) said that IF I wanted to, Ginza Leica could fix my problem, but ultimately I would have to send the camera and lens to Germany. It took Leica Ginza a while, while I paged through magazines, and when the item was "adjusted" I asked the guy what had been done, and he said that he adjusted the lens to work with the body (this could have been a language barrier issue). However, when I got back home, the Noctilux no longer worked with my other M240 cameras (this is an extreme case because the Noctilux is 0.95). It along with my M240 had to be sent to Germany. Leica also mentioned they'd do this for me, with the understanding that it was a quick fix as not to ruin my vacation.

    Usually I would have brought more lenses and bodies with me, but in this case I just wanted to bring my Noctilux and M240 as I was planning on buying a Sony (don't remember if it was the RX1 or A7 at that time) camera for quick snaps and I had heard that Japan sold them cheaper (I found out while I was their that the "cheaper priced" Sony cameras I wanted were Japanese menu only cameras).

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    To paraphrase Godfrey, Don also did work for me work Leica (USA) were unable to do successfully!
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    And that was exactly what I’m saying. There is a vast difference between adjusting cameras in a production process and doing so on an individual basis.
    A sensor adjustment - that must done by Leica, as it takes a laser measuring device, but the rangefinder itself is virtually DIY.
    Last edited by jaapv; 20th February 2015 at 11:57.
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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Again, not trying to discredit DAG in any way.

    I had a 75APO with a warped focusing helicoid and it was misdiagnosed by Leica several times before I gave up and had a reputable tech check it out. He told me the problem, ordered parts, fixed it, and no issues since. In fact, I'm actually quite curious where he got the parts from and for the longest time I was skeptical that he actually did what he said. But either way, the price to fix the lens was reasonable enough that I don't question it. And the lens is FIXED and problem free. (I have two 75APO lenses, a almost new one and that one. The older one, I think is better before of the tech.)

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Again, not trying to discredit DAG in any way.

    I had a 75APO with a warped focusing helicoid.....
    You mean that big chunk of brass warped? I keep on banging on about this but notchy focusing is nearly always caused by the flange. Over the years, or even from new, it rotates a fraction due to the torque involved in taking the lens on and off the body. It can self cure, then come back again, or remain permanently off centre so you send it for repair. Simply loosening the screws and doing them up again re-centre's the flange and the lens is fixed. How tech's dress that up to make it sound like they sweated blood is down to the tech. It shouldn't be confused with stiff focusing overall, which is usually down to dried up grease.

    Steve

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    Re: Sent my M240 to DAG Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    You mean that big chunk of brass warped? I keep on banging on about this but notchy focusing is nearly always caused by the flange. Over the years, or even from new, it rotates a fraction due to the torque involved in taking the lens on and off the body. It can self cure, then come back again, or remain permanently off centre so you send it for repair. Simply loosening the screws and doing them up again re-centre's the flange and the lens is fixed. How tech's dress that up to make it sound like they sweated blood is down to the tech. It shouldn't be confused with stiff focusing overall, which is usually down to dried up grease.

    Steve
    Hi Steve, I actually think the tube was slightly warped. As Leica had it several times without fixing it. If it was a matter of just adjusting the flange, I think they would have done it by the third or 4th time they had it.

    Something was replaced in the lens that Leica had missed.. OR something was done, but either way it works great now.

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