Site Sponsors
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 51 to 100 of 110

Thread: CCD or CMOS - you choose

  1. #51
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Sony to Stop Producing CCD Image Sensors to Focus on CMOS Growth

    I'll keep my Nikon D200 and Leica M9 with their CCD sensors in use besides many more CMOS based cameras. What's not to like?
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #52
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Odd that just asking the question taints public perception of individuals that have never owned the M. Having owned both, I can't list one thing, that can be subjectively measured, that isn't better with the M.

    Rick

  3. #53
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    Odd that just asking the question taints public perception of individuals that have never owned the M. Having owned both, I can't list one thing, that can be subjectively measured, that isn't better with the M.

    Rick
    Indeed Rick - it drives me crazy, but I realise now that you only have to bring up the subject to reinforce peoples religious belief in the CCD

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #54
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler
    ;628153
    Spot on. I couldn't agree more! Thanks.
    I too couldn't agree more with Marc. Extremely well said and echo's my thoughts as to why this well intentional exercise was conducted at this time. Additionally whats seen on a monitor along with its screen resolution, can be quite different when the actual files are printed.

    Art such as photography is as much of a visceral response to both the subject and image presentation as it is to technical measurements, so an empirical formulation as to why some prefer output of one camera to another is not always easily conducted.

    Dave (D&A)

  5. #55
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    Odd that just asking the question taints public perception of individuals that have never owned the M. Having owned both, I can't list one thing, that can be subjectively measured, that isn't better with the M.

    Rick
    When things can be "subjectively measured" it will be the absolute end of creative prerogative ... and the micrometer wielding, chart quoting photobots will then be dictating aesthetics.

    - Marc

  6. #56
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Indeed Rick - it drives me crazy, but I realise now that you only have to bring up the subject to reinforce peoples religious belief in the CCD
    Well, Jono ... the only "religion" I smell here is marketing.

    There are people that like CCD ... "Like" is a subjective word ... which for some reason people that don't agree can't seem to accept.

    I guessed that'd make it "Religious Intolerance"

    - Marc

  7. #57
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,298
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    Odd that just asking the question taints public perception of individuals that have never owned the M. Having owned both, I can't list one thing, that can be subjectively measured, that isn't better with the M.

    Rick
    I think RickLeica would agree with you!

    M240 - Things I like - Leica User Forum
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  8. #58
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    hey! i was wielding several micrometers today; do it frequently
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #59
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well, Jono ... the only "religion" I smell here is marketing.

    There are people that like CCD ... "Like" is a subjective word ... which for some reason people that don't agree can't seem to accept.
    I don't think that there is anything subjective about 'Like' it might be personal, but that's not the same thing - the problem is that before you can coherently say that you like CCD better than CMOS you must be able to define the difference in some kind of coherent manner which is relates specifically to CCD (rather than the difference between the M9 and the M240 - they're unquestionably different, but without some kind of empirical definition you might as well assign it to the 0.6mm thicker, or the different battery).

    The problem with all of these CMOS/CCD arguments is that they require a definition of the look of each type of sensor . . . and any arguments about colour are clearly rubbish, as the Bayer filter and the de-mosaicing are nothing to do with the type of sensor.
    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I guessed that'd make it "Religious Intolerance"

    - Marc
    Religion hinges around an act of faith - and I'm seriously intolerant of any kind of photographic act of faith (aren't you?)

    PS - I completely subscribe to your right to dislike the colour/files/ whatever of the M240 - wouldn't dream of arguing (don't have to agree) - what I'm arguing with is your connecting this dislike to the difference between CCD/CMOS sensors.

    Just this guy you know

  10. #60
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Were you measuring the look and feel of your photographs?

    - Marc
    Last edited by fotografz; 26th March 2015 at 00:54.

  11. #61
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Where you measuring the look and feel of your photographs?

    - Marc
    Ah, Marc
    do you mean:
    Where (in my office)
    were (yes)
    We're (I don't think that makes sense)

    I don't measure the look and feel of my photos, because I haven't devised a unit of measure - and that is really my point.

    I really understand that you don't like the images from the M(240) (and I wouldn't presume to try and persuade you otherwise). I just don't think that you can ascribe that dislike to a distinction between CCD and CMOS . .

    Just this guy you know

  12. #62
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I don't think that there is anything subjective about 'Like' it might be personal, but that's not the same thing - the problem is that before you can coherently say that you like CCD better than CMOS you must be able to define the difference in some kind of coherent manner which is relates specifically to CCD (rather than the difference between the M9 and the M240 - they're unquestionably different, but without some kind of empirical definition you might as well assign it to the 0.6mm thicker, or the different battery).

    The problem with all of these CMOS/CCD arguments is that they require a definition of the look of each type of sensor . . . and any arguments about colour are clearly rubbish, as the Bayer filter and the de-mosaicing are nothing to do with the type of sensor.


    Religion hinges around an act of faith - and I'm seriously intolerant of any kind of photographic act of faith (aren't you?)

    PS - I completely subscribe to your right to dislike the colour/files/ whatever of the M240 - wouldn't dream of arguing (don't have to agree) - what I'm arguing with is your connecting this dislike to the difference between CCD/CMOS sensors.
    Jono, I still do not understand why the creative preferences of others is so important to you. Why the burning need to discredit anyone's personal preference for CCD over CMOS whether real or perceived? Why the insistence on quantitate measurable proof of a difference? After all, it is aesthetics we are talking about ... and BTW, it is here we disagree completely, because "Like" & "Don't Like" are very subjective words ... and both are always personal.

    Personally, I don't have to connect a creative preference to any specific aspect of one camera verses the other. All I need do for myself is have that preference ... and if it happens to consistently be cameras with CCD sensors, then that is what I prefer. If it is a coincidence attributable to other factors, so what? If it is a consistent phenomena of CCD cameras to produce a signature look and feel I like, then that becomes the preference.

    Oh, and I engage in a act of faith every time I press the shutter button ... hoping the digital camera works.

    - Marc

  13. #63
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,928
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...
    Oh, and I engage in a act of faith every time I press the shutter button ... hoping the digital camera works.
    We seem to belong to different faiths ... I have that moment of uncertainty and faith when I press the shutter release on my film cameras but not on my digital cameras. I know the latter are going to work, where I'm never sure with the film cameras.. ]'-)

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #64
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Ah, Marc
    do you mean:
    Where (in my office)
    were (yes)
    We're (I don't think that makes sense)

    I don't measure the look and feel of my photos, because I haven't devised a unit of measure - and that is really my point.

    I really understand that you don't like the images from the M(240) (and I wouldn't presume to try and persuade you otherwise). I just don't think that you can ascribe that dislike to a distinction between CCD and CMOS . .
    Now you are getting petty Juno ... the typo was obviously meant to be "Were".


    I don't think anyone intellectually measures the look and feel of imagery, and that was my point. They viscerally react to it.

    So, if I consistently "like" the look and feel of a number of CCD cameras more than that of many different CMOS cameras, it is human nature to subscribe that experiential preference to differences in sensor ... or any filter/readout/whatever that accompanies them.

    "Experiential" is a key element in all this. It isn't just the M240 rendering that turned me off, there have been a number of CMOS cameras I wasn't all that fond of. While I didn't mind the Sony A900 CMOS rendering, I still preferred results from the antiquated and abandoned DMR, flawed M8, and M9 over the A900.

    Every time I think to get a M(240) for all the other functional advancements, I look at the M image threads and feel grateful that I still can work with a CCD camera ... at least for now.

    However, I'm not pushing CCD verses CMOS other than for myself. So, I remain perplexed by the fervor to discredit the creative preferences of those that subscribe to CCD ... be it real or just perceived. It is like telling someone they shouldn't like the color red, they should like blue ... and then insisting that they "prove" why they like Red.

    In the meantime, my MM suffices for rangefinder work and keeps the M lenses busy, and happily go about making photos with my S(006) ...

    - Marc

  15. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Near Brussels, Belgium, Europe
    Posts
    541
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Maybe it would be more appropriate not to speak about Cmos vs CCD sensor tastes but about cameras built around Cmos or CCD sensors.

    I think camera makers are building their whole camera concept around the specific sensors propriety, sound quite logical, no ?. They will optimize high Iso capacity of Cmos sensors using weaker color filters and who knows what else to get the best possible DR and noise signals. That's what most customers want, clean high isos.
    It doesn't mean that Cmos sensor couldn't also be optimized for the best possible IQ at native iso (that's what Canon has done with the new 5Ds I believe) but it is a more efficient business plan to give customers what most of them want.
    CCD cameras are optimized for native ISO IQ, there is no other option and they excel doing that.
    Looks very obvious to me and I don't understand why some people who know everything about CCD sensor weaknesses have hard time dealing with the unrivaled IQ at base iso of the CCD cameras that are optimized for that purpose.

    Race cars are not that good for off road but once on a racetrack...
    ___________________________________
    http://www.vincent-angillis.be
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  16. #66
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Now you are getting petty Juno ... the typo was obviously meant to be "Were".
    Juno?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    However, I'm not pushing CCD verses CMOS other than for myself. So, I remain perplexed by the fervor to discredit the creative preferences of those that subscribe to CCD ... be it real or just perceived. It is like telling someone they shouldn't like the color red, they should like blue ... and then insisting that they "prove" why they like Red.

    - Marc
    Hi there Marc - the reason I'm fervent about it is that it cultivates a feeling on the internet that there really IS difference between CCD and CMOS colour, and that CCD is inherently better, this then has a negative effect on sales of a camera which is serving those of us who like it extremely well.

    Of course, that's not my personal problem, but I find it sad when I hear people saying they won't buy an M240 because it has a CMOS sensor (when they haven't tried it) - sad for them, because they're missing out on the obvious benefits of the newer camera, and sad for Leica because they're missing out on sales on the basis of a prejudice which doesn't stack up logically or scientifically.

    Which is absolutely NOT a criticism of your choice, because you looked and decided. I just don't like the propagation of an internet myth which impacts both people and companies.

    All the best

    Just this guy you know

  17. #67
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    There is a recent piece on this with certain claims in the title:

    M9 pop on a M240: The 35mm Zeiss Distagon T 1.4 By Howard Shooter | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

    My "visceral" reaction is posted and will appear there if approved.

    This is what I posted:
    Instagram look. Not sure this is impressive by any stretch.

  18. #68
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    Maybe it would be more appropriate not to speak about Cmos vs CCD sensor tastes but about cameras built around Cmos or CCD sensors.

    I think camera makers are building their whole camera concept around the specific sensors propriety, sound quite logical, no ?. They will optimize high Iso capacity of Cmos sensors using weaker color filters and who knows what else to get the best possible DR and noise signals. That's what most customers want, clean high isos.
    It doesn't mean that Cmos sensor couldn't also be optimized for the best possible IQ at native iso (that's what Canon has done with the new 5Ds I believe) but it is a more efficient business plan to give customers what most of them want.
    I quite agree - although, in the case of Leica they have not done this with the M, which explains why the high ISO is not as good as you'd expect with a 24mp CMOS sensor . . . . and also why so many of us like the colour from the Sony A900 (which had fundamentally the same sensor as the D3x, but did much better colour and much worse high ISO).

    Just this guy you know

  19. #69
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    IMO it doesnt matter if the difference people see comes from the CCD vs CMOS, or from something else. As long as everybody knows which camera he/she prefers we are all fine.
    I prefer the M over the M9, but I also prefer the S over the M
    I dont know yet if I would prefer the S007 over the S006, I will wait and look (at the images but also at the price development).

  20. #70
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I use both the CCD M9 and CMOS M240 cameras. I find the differences between the out-of-camera files of the two cameras at low ISO are of no significance. I find the differences between the two cameras are of great significance. Each to their own.

    Choice is good but make the most of it, it won’t last.

  21. #71
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I use both the CCD M9 and CMOS M240 cameras. I find the differences between the out-of-camera files of the two cameras at low ISO are of no significance. I find the differences between the two cameras are of great significance. Each to their own.

    Choice is good but make the most of it, it won’t last.
    Hi Keith
    I quite agree - but what won't last? the camera or the choice

    Just this guy you know

  22. #72
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Keith
    I quite agree - but what won't last? the camera or the choice
    Jono, you're not suggesting that perhaps the CCD sensor has an inherent fault?
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  23. #73
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Jono, you're not suggesting that perhaps the CCD sensor has an inherent fault?
    Heaven forfend!

    Just this guy you know

  24. #74
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Heaven forfend!
    Thank you, Jono! Hopefully that will come true for my MM!
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  25. #75
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Juno?



    Hi there Marc - the reason I'm fervent about it is that it cultivates a feeling on the internet that there really IS difference between CCD and CMOS colour, and that CCD is inherently better, this then has a negative effect on sales of a camera which is serving those of us who like it extremely well.

    Of course, that's not my personal problem, but I find it sad when I hear people saying they won't buy an M240 because it has a CMOS sensor (when they haven't tried it) - sad for them, because they're missing out on the obvious benefits of the newer camera, and sad for Leica because they're missing out on sales on the basis of a prejudice which doesn't stack up logically or scientifically.

    Which is absolutely NOT a criticism of your choice, because you looked and decided. I just don't like the propagation of an internet myth which impacts both people and companies.

    All the best
    LOL! I'm just not doing well with auto spelling corrections of typos. Got to re-read everything closer. Sorry ... Jono.

    Personally, it isn't my job to police people's opinions, and the marketing of cameras is the task of the companies and retailers, not mine.

    I'd agree that one shouldn't dismiss a camera like the M(240) without trying it. However, that in itself can be problematic because getting one for a few weeks to properly explore it (like I did) is not an easy task.

    Also, I doubt that those not buying the M(240) are making the decision based strictly on internet innuendo. It is more likely that in lieu of actually shooting with one, they are looking at all the images on M threads.

    Setting the CCD/CMOS thing aside, if some people like the M9 files and not the M(240) files, what's a mother to do? Doesn't matter what the reason is, the result is the same.

    To be clear, my preference isn't a closed minded one that dismisses CMOS out of hand. It is simply based on experience with which cameras seem to satisfy a personal aesthetic prejudice gained over time.

    - Marc

  26. #76
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Also, I doubt that those not buying the M(240) are making the decision based strictly on internet innuendo. It is more likely that in lieu of actually shooting with one, they are looking at all the images on M threads.
    Marc, I doubt either method is wise
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #77
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    HI Marc
    I rather like being Juno occasionally - I have a vision of some big busty brassy bird (the inner me ).

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Also, I doubt that those not buying the M(240) are making the decision based strictly on internet innuendo. It is more likely that in lieu of actually shooting with one, they are looking at all the images on M threads.
    I don't doubt it Marc, in fact I KNOW it's true that people are not buying based on the internet chatter - I get hundreds of emails from people about different aspects of Leica, and this kind of thing really is the case.

    As for looking at images on threads - have you tried David Farkas 'experiment' nothing like that is perfect, but it seemed to me that it proved pretty conclusively that you couldn't even tell the difference looking at images on the net . . . .and if you can't tell the difference then having a preference is a little moot!


    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Setting the CCD/CMOS thing aside, if some people like the M9 files and not the M(240) files, what's a mother to do? Doesn't matter what the reason is, the result is the same.
    A mother isn't to do anything - it's absolutely fine - you'll never have heard me criticise the preference for a minute . . . and it doesn't matter what the reason is - I quite agree it doesn't matter what the reason is - but if preferences is promulgated as a fact and attributed to something rather unlikely . . . AND others believe it - then THAT does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    To be clear, my preference isn't a closed minded one that dismisses CMOS out of hand. It is simply based on experience with which cameras seem to satisfy a personal aesthetic prejudice gained over time.

    - Marc
    I never thought it was for a minute . . . . I just feel that the way you put it is teaching others to believe that your preference is actually a fact.

    Anyway - perhaps we should stop dancing on the heads of pins (of course we ARE both angels .

    All the best
    Jono (the skinny grey one)

    Just this guy you know

  28. #78
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,928
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    When my M9 sensor needed replacement, I lay on the bed of nails and contemplated my choices. Replacement: free. Upgrade: $4000.

    I went to the store with my own lenses and card, spent an hour or two making boring test exposures similar to ones I had from the M9.

    - I much preferred how the M typ 240 worked.
    - Comparing the test shots, I preferred what the M typ 240 produces.

    I spent the money and have been delighted I did so. Besides, "Complementary Metal Oxide Semiconductor" sounds so much more neat and techie than "Charge Coupled Device" ...

    G

  29. #79
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Indeed Rick - it drives me crazy, but I realise now that you only have to bring up the subject to reinforce peoples religious belief in the CCD
    I agree, in the sense that it is very much like having a discussion about religion. All the facts can be laid out, but one must be careful to not tread on faith. Faith is the deliberate decision to believe. Faith does not have to concern itself with facts. You just have to believe that something looks better, then describe it as an aesthetic or a feeling that is personal. End of objective discussion. Don't tread on faith.

    But, I can tell you as an owner of the M8, M9 and M... and not just borrowing them for a week or looking at photos on the internet, but really working with the files in PP for months and years that they all can be made to look the same. Except, once you leave base ISO where the M retains its color depth much, much better. Or, if you are trying to recover highlights or bring out shadow tone where the M has the advantage.

    I also print a lot and I often print huge on a HP Z3200 44" printer. Both cameras are able to produce, under most situations, identical prints that I know for a fact that none would be able to tell the difference in the feel or the esthetic of the sensor type.

    But, on the internet people can claim anything they want. Come over to my print office and look at my prints and try and identify the esthetic that you like so much and I'll tell you if you are picking the correct sensor... you won't be able to. In print it isn't even an issue of equal but different. In print they are equal.

    Rick

  30. #80
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    When things can be "subjectively measured" it will be the absolute end of creative prerogative ... and the micrometer wielding, chart quoting photobots will then be dictating aesthetics.

    - Marc
    I actually should have said objectively measured. As in; I can't list one thing, that can be objectively measured, that isn't better with the M. Which is even more to my point.

    It is you that is subjectively measuring.

    Also, I don't believe it is the end of the creative prerogative, as you say, when we objectively measure a tool. On the contrary, it is the beginning. The creative process, for me, starts when you hand me the camera and everything in between that moment and the print.

    The objective measure is a completely different aspect and has little to do with creativity. The subjective measure is just belief masquerading as reality.

    Rick
    Last edited by Auni; 26th March 2015 at 12:56.

  31. #81
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    I agree, in the sense that it is very much like having a discussion about religion. All the facts can be laid out, but one must be careful to not tread on faith. Faith is the deliberate decision to believe. Faith does not have to concern itself with facts. You just have to believe that something looks better, then describe it as an aesthetic or a feeling that is personal. End of objective discussion. Don't tread on faith.

    But, I can tell you as an owner of the M8, M9 and M... and not just borrowing them for a week or looking at photos on the internet, but really working with the files in PP for months and years that they all can be made to look the same. Except, once you leave base ISO where the M retains its color depth much, much better. Or, if you are trying to recover highlights or bring out shadow tone where the M has the advantage.

    I also print a lot and I often print huge on a HP Z3200 44" printer. Both cameras are able to produce, under most situations, identical prints that I know for a fact that none would be able to tell the difference in the feel or the esthetic of the sensor type.

    But, on the internet people can claim anything they want. Come over to my print office and look at my prints and try and identify the esthetic that you like so much and I'll tell you if you are picking the correct sensor... you won't be able to. In print it isn't even an issue of equal but different. In print they are equal.

    Rick
    Hi There Rick - I'm certain you're correct - I also know for a fact that without delving into pixel count etc. etc. I cannot tell the camera which took a properly processed image just by looking at it. . . . .

    But telling people this kind of common sense only infuriates them and makes them say that's because You (or Me) have 'cloth eyes'.

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  32. #82
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Hi Jono,

    You said something above somewhere (long thread) that I also agree with. It has to do with why come on these threads (like I do from time to time) and argue something that seems so subjective? And, the reason I would give is that folks read these threads and sometimes believe that experts can tell the difference and have a personal preference of CCD over CMOS. Which sounds like that is ok. Why bully them? Can't they have an opinion?

    Yes they can. I have actually learned from Marc and have looked at the output from the Sony cameras and I do see a difference in skin tone and I agree with him now. The Sony is more pleasing and much easier to work with in this area. (I believe it is a side effect of the thin sensor and the IR contamination from the Leica sensors having to be made so thin).

    But, the CCD and the CMOS issue is just a subjective belief. It can't even be proven when we look subjectively at posted images. Objectively, no one can subjectively tell a difference.

    So, propagating this belief does have an effect... to Leica and to those who will miss out on the M. This is the problem with floating someone's belief or perception as fact. As the saying goes, perception is reality. If, people believe there is an objective difference it becomes reality... and that has a knock-on effect.

    Rick

  33. #83
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    Hi Jono,

    You said something above somewhere (long thread) that I also agree with. It has to do with why come on these threads (like I do from time to time) and argue something that seems so subjective? And, the reason I would give is that folks read these threads and sometimes believe that experts can tell the difference and have a personal preference of CCD over CMOS. Which sounds like that is ok. Why bully them? Can't they have an opinion?

    Yes they can. I have actually learned from Marc and have looked at the output from the Sony cameras and I do see a difference in skin tone and I agree with him now. The Sony is more pleasing and much easier to work with in this area. (I believe it is a side effect of the thin sensor and the IR contamination from the Leica sensors having to be made so thin).
    Yes indeed - there certainly is IR contamination - mind you, lots of other cameras have it as well, it's just not beefed about! The downside of the thicker cover glass on the Sony cameras is, of course, the problems with wide angle M lenses at the corners (no free lunches).

    Quote Originally Posted by Auni View Post
    But, the CCD and the CMOS issue is just a subjective belief. It can't even be proven when we look subjectively at posted images. Objectively, no one can subjectively tell a difference.

    So, propagating this belief does have an effect... to Leica and to those who will miss out on the M. This is the problem with floating someone's belief or perception as fact. As the saying goes, perception is reality. If, people believe there is an objective difference it becomes reality... and that has a knock-on effect.

    Rick
    Indeed Rick - I couldn't agree more. . . . . . But you mustn't think Marc and I are at loggerheads - we agree with each other about most things and go back a long way!

    Just this guy you know

  34. #84
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    IMO it doesnt matter if the difference people see comes from the CCD vs CMOS, or from something else. As long as everybody knows which camera he/she prefers we are all fine.
    I prefer the M over the M9, but I also prefer the S over the M
    I dont know yet if I would prefer the S007 over the S006, I will wait and look (at the images but also at the price development).
    I was going to say this above point word for word... I would have added one thing though in Marc's defence. Something nobody here is mentioning.

    Marc shoots a LOT of frames (weddings). One must also take into consideration time spent editing. If Marc decides to us an M9 and gets the images he likes almost right off the bat, then he's saving a lot of time and hassle trying to figure out what to do with the files. Thus the M9 is god-sent in comparison to a M240. His sensor choice doesn't matter, it's how he gets to his end result. So yes, you can make an M240 image look IDENTICAL to an M9 image (CCD vs CMOS debunked) but that doesn't mean you won't be working for it. If you like the base file from a M9, then it's the easier choice, assuming you can put up with the quirks of the M9 body/architecture.

    And also to throw a curve ball at all of you.. I've done the testing. My conclusion is that the M9 sensor reflections and M240 sensor reflections are different. Thus different lenses react to the different sensors in a way that affects the lenses ability to handle certain lighting conditions. It's subtle and not always there, but it's there. And no bayer filter or post processing is going to the fix the problems that arise from this issue. Most people chalk it up to lighting conditions, and it slips by most M9 vs M240 CCD vs CMOS sensor testers (simply because most people do basic bare minimum testing). I first noticed this when I was putting my defective 50APO through the ringer. I've since tested all my M lenses, which is almost every M lens in the current lineup. For the 50APO I had one of the first, it worked well on the M9, horribly on the M240 but had great color and contrast. After the fix in Germany, the color and contrast went down noticeably, but it worked well on the M240 with only minor issues. I was mad about the color/contrast going down, so I sent it in a second time, but it came back the same, working on the M240 but with reduced color and contrast. Had I known, I would have put up with the defective lens, and kept the color/contrast high.
    I will add, I also prototyped the 50APO before it was announced and never noticed a problem with the prototype, but that was before the M240 existed, so I was using it with an M9. I think out of 400-500 test shots around town over two days I seen flare from the M9 twice, and some ghosting in only the most extreme situations (but maybe the 50APO prototype didn't have problems like my 50APO production model). With the production model on the M240 vs M9 I could get ghosting and flare about 50% of the time on the M240 and still very low on the M9. And no I wasn't using LV on the M240 to coax out the problems.

    Anyway, bottom line. CCD vs CMOS is personal choice. Is CCD magically better, no not on it's own. Their are a number of factors at play, but the factors do influence how you get to the same end result. So just choose the camera that's right for you and be happy to shoot with it.
    Last edited by aDam007; 26th March 2015 at 13:41.

  35. #85
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    But you mustn't think Marc and I are at loggerheads - we agree with each other about most things and go back a long way!
    I know. And the same goes with Marc and me. There are several examples where Marc has turned out to change my mind. But, no real surprise here, he has been at this professionally for a whole career. I wish he lived next door. I could sit down with him and try and figure out what he is seeing and I could show him what I see in piles of prints I've made.

    But, since he doesn't live next door I just have to believe he is wrong.

    Rick

  36. #86
    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    S. Florida
    Posts
    549
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    How hard is it for Leica to create an M9 color profile for M240? All these CCD vs CMOS debates would not even start if manufactures cared to provide the consistent color output their users/fans have appreciated with the previous sensor generation. Leica and Pentax shooters are lucky to have a choice between CCD and CMOS to mount the lenses on. Canon, Nikon, and Sony don't offer such a luxury in 35mm FF format.

  37. #87
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I've worked with M9 and M240 files since the inception of each camera. Although I might not be able to reliably tell the difference between the files of each camera in Dave's posted test, I do know when I work intensely with the files from both cameras (especially when printing large), which images I most often prefer. Whether others viewing my prints feel the same, I can't say but as I pointed out in my original post, its the visceral response I get upon viewing matched sets of prints that matters most. This too has happened with some other CCD sensor based cameras. Are there measurable deficiencies in some of the images captured by these CCD based cameras? Absolutely, but nearer to perfection is not what I am after.

    The 50mm Lux asph is technically and measurably a far better lens than its predisessor the pre asph. Yet I like some others, more often prefer the look of the files the pre asph produces than that from the Lux asph. Same goes for many other vintage lenses vs. their modern day counterparts.

    Doesn't Leica lose sales when some internet chatter often espouces the virtues of these older classic lenses vs. what is being produced by Leica today? How come there isn't the same uproar and debate in the case of lenses? In my opinion, its a similar type of argument and just as subjective as the debate between the preferences for base iso files from the M9 vs M240. There really isn't a right or wrong in subjective opinions and preferences.

    My perceived advantages of the M9 base iso images over the M240 is based on a quite narrow window whereby the M240 in so many other ways trumps the M9. Yet its that narrow window thats so powerful and important to me, and therefore what has held me back from switching over. Time and continual changes though may ultimately tip that balance.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 26th March 2015 at 20:12.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  38. #88
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Shashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    4,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    141

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    The problem is called "confirmation bias."

    I have no doubt people have preferences. The problem comes when try to ascribe cause. I had a conversation with a person that swore that a particular Alpa camera made sharper images than other camera, even though the optics, and in this case, film back were identical ( Alpa does not make these things). Apparently. The metal spacer that was the Alpa camera was the secret sauce. That person could not show me the difference in the images except to say that they could see it.

    I really do not doubt that folks find a particular camera "better." I do not doubt their experience, nor do I doubt their skill. I simple doubt the ascribed cause, in this case.

    I am not sure calling this a religious affliction is quite fair. Many photographers are very intuitive. Intuition can be a powerful driver in the creative arts. The problem comes when trying to rationalize intuition. It is extremely hard to reduce complex intuitive experience. While it is easy to reduce the CCD/CMOS issue technically, it still is difficult to reduce the intuitive experience of those having those system. While I can't subscribe to a CCD look, I don't doubt that photographers can have a real perception of systemic quality.

    Sorry for the typos, iPads have drawbacks.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  39. #89
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    The problem is called "confirmation bias."

    I have no doubt people have preferences. The problem comes when try to ascribe cause. I had a conversation with a person that swore that a particular Alpa camera made sharper images than other camera, even though the optics, and in this case, film back were identical ( Alpa does not make these things). Apparently. The metal spacer that was the Alpa camera was the secret sauce. That person could not show me the difference in the images except to say that they could see it.

    I really do not doubt that folks find a particular camera "better." I do not doubt their experience, nor do I doubt their skill. I simple doubt the ascribed cause, in this case.

    I am not sure calling this a religious affliction is quite fair. Many photographers are very intuitive. Intuition can be a powerful driver in the creative arts. The problem comes when trying to rationalize intuition. It is extremely hard to reduce complex intuitive experience. While it is easy to reduce the CCD/CMOS issue technically, it still is difficult to reduce the intuitive experience of those having those system. While I can't subscribe to a CCD look, I don't doubt that photographers can have a real perception of systemic quality.

    Sorry for the typos, iPads have drawbacks.
    Well stated, and eye opening for both sides of the debate.

    I sometimes also feel there is a bit of "Cognitive Dissonance" at play here ... also on both sides of the discussion.

    While there may not be the pure scientific logic to support preference for the M9 rendering, there is plenty of empirical evidence. For me it is direct experience and a lot of it, fueled by intuitive observation ... and by extension that of others who's opinion I trust and value.

    My pal Irakly is a great photographer IMO, and soldiers on with his M9, I see Doug of Wildlight Photography continue on with his 10 meg crop frame DMR with a CCD and electronics by Imacon when he could have adapted his long Leica R lenses to another camera long ago. Etc. Etc.

    I do admit to feeling that there is a disproportionate hue and cry regarding the M(240) "differences", or supposed lack of them compared to the rendering from the M9 ... to quote: "A key tenet of cognitive dissonance theory is that those who have heavily invested in a position may, when confronted with disconfirming evidence, go to greater lengths to justify their position." thus my: "Me Thinks thou protest to much" post when a retailer posts their "evidence". As an ad man, I've sat through enough blind product comparisons to know how flawed that approach is.

    To be fair, the same could be said about others defending the CCD verses CMOS based solely on second-hand web info.

    Personally, I am not trying to defend a my personal preference and intuitions ... it is MY choice, and I sure am not trying to convince anyone else it is right or wrong ... just that it is right for me.

    Heck, I currently do not have either a M9 or M(240) ... all rangefinder work is done with a MM ... so I have zero motivation to even engage in this debate. However, I do wish I could have smoothly transitioned to a M(240) and availed myself of the camera's functional improvements ... while retaining the look and feel I got from the M9 which IMO was unique amongst 35mm cameras, and a image companion in continuity with my S system.

    Actually, it beggars the imagination that Leica didn't see their own unique image properties compared to the myriad other choices, and didn't do what was necessary in the CMOS image chain to retain it.

    IF it is the non-sensor aspects that led to the M(240) differences, is it not possible to alter those? Can a M9 Profile be created as suggested by others here? If it is the sensor filtration, can a second version of the M be produced like how other camera companies are doing? I don't want a ME with less functionality, I want M functionality that renders in the unique manner the M9 did/does.

    - Marc
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  40. #90
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    Actually, it beggars the imagination that Leica didn't see their own unique image properties compared to the myriad other choices, and didn't do what was necessary in the CMOS image chain to retain it.

    IF it is the non-sensor aspects that led to the M(240) differences, is it not possible to alter those? Can a M9 Profile be created as suggested by others here?
    As much as I like the out-of-camera look of the M9 files I'm not at all sure I'd want the M240 files to be made to look and or behave the same.

    The M9 files are punchier largely due to having less dynamic range but are less amenable to post. I find the M240 files slightly flatter but far more malleable and the DR a real improvement.

    I guess the preference depends on individual photographer’s subject matter and workflow. Perhaps I might think differently if I was a wedding photographer regularly having to process thousands of files.
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  41. #91
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    For my purpose I found out some factors where (to me) one has to handle the 2 cameras a little different.
    One is exposure, I think with the M type240 its better to expose a bit lower compared to the M9. The M has more DR but it still can happen to blow out one of the color channels in some areas (which you do not allways see in the histogramm) which can lead to washed out colors/areas.
    Another thing is the choice of lenses, probably due to the higher DR but also due to slightly different color result of the sensor I seem to prefer different lenses ofr each of the 2 cameras (M9/M). I do like for example the Summicrons a lot on the new M (which do draw slightly colder/neutral) vs my Summilux 50/1.4asph which has a little more red in the color.
    Anyways, I think we also do not have to "over-discuss the situation", there are so many factors like sensor, software of camera, raw-converter, lenses and so many different tastes that is not possible to have a better and a worse cameras/concept.
    And istnt it cool that in case of the M we even can buy both cameras and decide ourselves.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  42. #92
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    The 50mm Lux asph is technically and measurably a far better lens than its predisessor the pre asph. Yet I like some others, more often prefer the look of the files the pre asph produces than that from the Lux asph. Same goes for many other vintage lenses vs. their modern day counterparts.

    Doesn't Leica lose sales when some internet chatter often espouces the virtues of these older classic lenses vs. what is being produced by Leica today?
    I don't think they do . . .but people buy lots of lenses - but not so many camera bodies!

    Just this guy you know

  43. #93
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    IF it is the non-sensor aspects that led to the M(240) differences, is it not possible to alter those? Can a M9 Profile be created as suggested by others here? If it is the sensor filtration, can a second version of the M be produced like how other camera companies are doing? I don't want a ME with less functionality, I want M functionality that renders in the unique manner the M9 did/does.

    - Marc
    HI Marc
    as I understand it - yes, it would be absolutely possible to do this - although it would probably also require diminishing the dynamic range. . . . . It wouldn't even require a new version of the camera to do it - just a new version of the firmware. . . . . . but it would certainly irritate a lot of people who actually prefer the rendering of the M240, and putting it in as an option isn't something they'll do.

    as an instance of this kind of problem.

    When the M240 came out, you could no longer use Auto ISO in manual mode (ie when setting the shutter speed manually). This was as a result of several pleas from purists who said that manual should be manual - so it was actually switched off (it was there in beta firmware, just as it had been in the M9).

    Of course - nobody had been sending messages to Leica telling them how much they liked using Auto ISO in manual mode (great for concerts, shootin. . . well, you know!).

    However, when it was switched off they were deluged with messages asking for it to be switched on again (after all, the purists could always pick a fixed ISO).

    Anyway - it's there as an option now


    So there are 400 signatures on a 'petition' for leica to reintroduce a CCD sensor . . . .but even if they risked irritating those who like the rendering of the M240 and changed the colour in the firmware there's no guarantee that these people would then be happy.

    Incidentally I still think the starting point of this problem was that the initial firmware did have an error in the WB calculations - which was fixed quite fast, but started off the whole thing.

    Just this guy you know
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  44. #94
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Godfrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Near San Jose, California
    Posts
    7,928
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    ...
    I guess the preference depends on individual photographer’s subject matter and workflow. Perhaps I might think differently if I was a wedding photographer regularly having to process thousands of files.
    ... Although in that case, you'd be using a FF Canon or Nikon DSLR with a 24-75 and 80-200 zoom lens most likely. ];-)


    Leica M-P + Summilux 35mm f/1.4 v2
    ISO 200 @ f/2 @ 1/45

    All I can tell you is that I made this photo with countless cameras, including the M9 and the same lens, at the same ISO and aperture, and it wasn't until I made it with the M-P that I felt the camera had captured what I wanted.

    This is an original JPEG (I'd forgotten to turn on raw capture, it was about my tenth exposure with the M-P...) which has had virtually no image processing other than frame and sizing applied. It is exactly what I have had in mind looking at this scene and light for years.

    enjoy.
    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  45. #95
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    3,672
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post

    1. "and putting it in as an option isn't something they'll do."

    2. "Incidentally I still think the starting point of this problem was that the initial firmware did have an error in the WB calculations - which was fixed quite fast, but started off the whole thing".
    Regarding the two points you made...

    1. Why not put it in as an option assuming that offering a M9 profile in a M240, would truly emulate file output from an M9. This way you satisfy both camps. Its conjecture though at this point that an M9 profile would be an acceptable alternative until implementation is initiated in early trials.

    2. I wholeheartedly agree with this 2nd point Jono. Differences between the two different cameras was accentuated during the early release phase of the M240 and like a bad taste in the mouth for some, they never forgot it nor wanted to risk testing the waters again. Things have certainly changed for the better with additional firmware releases (for the M240), neverless differences for some still abound with both current cameras when files and subsequent images from both are examined. Its these differences that many current M9 users don't want to loose, regardless how well the M240 does in so many other areas.

    Again we come back to subjectivity and it not being a question of right or wrong but what's best and liked by the individual user of these cameras, especially when their opinions are voiced respectfully on public forums.

    Dave (D&A)
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  46. #96
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Jono, I for one would not like Leica to make the M240 render like the M9. I often had to work too hard to get the color right in my M9 files. The camera was too much work.

    Other than skin hue, that I sometimes change the red toward orange (thin sensor glass?), the M is fine out of camera. By the way, the M9 had its own problems with skin hue especially in tungsten lighting and moderately high ISO.

    Rick
    flickr
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  47. #97
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    191
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Jono, I still do not understand why the creative preferences of others is so important to you. Why the burning need to discredit anyone's personal preference for CCD over CMOS whether real or perceived? Why the insistence on quantitate measurable proof of a difference?
    I quite frankly don't get it either...

    The people who shoot M240 like their M240, the people who shoot M9 like their M9, what's not to like?

    And objectively, if that is important to anybody, it is probably not so hard to prove that the latest Sony cameras beat them both...

    No offense to some people but their efforts to convince other people are becoming slightly tiring and counter productive IMO...
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  48. #98
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    I quite frankly don't get it either...

    The people who shoot M240 like their M240, the people who shoot M9 like their M9, what's not to like?

    And objectively, if that is important to anybody, it is probably not so hard to prove that the latest Sony cameras beat them both...

    No offense to some people but their efforts to convince other people are becoming slightly tiring and counter productive IMO...

  49. #99
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    jonoslack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    East Anglia & Cornwall (UK)
    Posts
    11,778
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    I quite frankly don't get it either...
    Joris - I have NEVER criticised the creative preferences of others, not once, and Marc misrepresents me here: I never tried to discredit people's preference for an M9 for a second. I would be just as vocal about anyone who proposed that the colour of a CMOS sensor was better than that of a CCD.
    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    The people who shoot M240 like their M240, the people who shoot M9 like their M9, what's not to like?
    Nothing is not to like - I'm completely happy with this -

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    And objectively, if that is important to anybody, it is probably not so hard to prove that the latest Sony cameras beat them both...
    Well, tough to be objective in terms of 'look' but DxO would certainly bear this out.
    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    No offense to some people but their efforts to convince other people are becoming slightly tiring and counter productive IMO...
    No offense taken - but I'm sad that you've so clearly misunderstood what I've been trying to get across - the LAST thing I want to do is to convince people that either camera is better . . . . .

    . . .but seeing as it's so clear that I am not being understood, I guess I'd better shut up.

    Just this guy you know

  50. #100
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,601
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Hi Jono, I (at least I did not) do not think it was directed entirely at you. Just look at some of the posts, everything about color is falling apart if you take some of the posters at their word.

    I agree with Joris that this is a futile discussion that is not doing well for Leica in general (my take based on what I read here).
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •