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Thread: CCD or CMOS - you choose

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    CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Hi There
    David Farkas has an interesting pair of articles on the Red Dot Forum website.
    He's actually trying to get some statistical information on the question of whether people can tell the difference in real photos.

    There are different ways it could have been done, but at least it's an interesting experiment - if you can spare the time why don't you vote on this - the more people vote the better the statistics.

    CCD vs CMOS - part 1

    and

    CCD vs CMOS - part 2


    Enjoy!

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I enjoyed guessing – and I wonder if Dave will provide a way for us to check out our own answers against the correct ones?

    Kirk

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Thanks for posting this here Jono. I went through David's articles yesterday, but didn't think to post links to them here. Duh.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Whatever results from CMOS - they look better for me.

    Translated this means - I would never go back to CCD anytime in the future, as CMOS has just too many advantages.

    Easy decision

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    I enjoyed guessing and I wonder if Dave will provide a way for us to check out our own answers against the correct ones?

    Kirk
    Hi There
    Sadly I don't think David has a way of identifying sessions - I thought it would be interesting to know if anyone got all (or most) of them right, but apparently he can't do that

    Still, I think it's worthwhile, because if his results show 50-50 . . . then it's pretty clear that those who KNOW the difference between CCD and CMOS . . .

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I think if David provides the correct answer for each comparison ... we can get an idea of how we did . It was apparent to me that in a high percentage of the comparison that they were so close as to not matter .

    There are three key areas I looked for :

    1. Highlights on the M9 are generally brighter because the M9 has a stronger tone curve and a smaller DR . Unless you adjust for it the light tones will appear brighter . This is a big part of the “brilliance “ that often seen. Of course at the expense of maintaining detail in the highlights/lights .

    2. The M240 files will generally show a more magenta blue sky ..this is due to the profiles used to correct the yellow green bias of the CMOS file . You used to be able to see this easily by using the embedded profiles .

    3. Skin tones on the M9 tend to favor the lighter pink hue verse the stronger orange sometimes seen in the M240 . If the skin looks baby pink its probably an M9 file .

    If you have access to both cameras simply shoot a color checker chart in sunlight and compare the color strength and tone curves . What David has done to his credit is to show that with most photographs ...the results are too close to reliably differentiate .

    Too bad Leica hasn t provided an M9 color profile for the M240 .

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    What David has done to his credit is to show that with most photographs ...the results are too close to reliably differentiate .
    Exactly my feelings Roger - and if that's the case, then it seems to me that it's pretty tough to assign what differences there might be to the CCD/CMOS argument.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    I think if David provides the correct answer for each comparison ... we can get an idea of how we did . It was apparent to me that in a high percentage of the comparison that they were so close as to not matter .
    Hi again Roger
    I think it would have been good for him to be able to get the results from each user - to see whether ANYONE was reliably getting the images correct - obviously 1 person might be luck, but if a few people had got them all (or nearly all) correct then one could infer that there really was a difference (even if it was one that the majority couldn't tell).

    There's a good statistical exercise which could be done here . . . . . but although this is useful - and I applaud David for doing it - it isn't quite the real deal.

    On the other hand - if one designed a really good experiment - and got lots and lots of people to join in - and proved conclusively that people couldn't tell between the two cameras . . . . . . it still wouldn't convince people, because battle lines in the CCD/CMOS argument have really been drawn up on religious grounds.

    All the best
    Jono

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Thanks for the link, it was fun to go through the two sets of images. Look forward to Part 3, please let us know when it is posted.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I would find this experiment more useful if we could play with the files. It's not just the finished product, although that is quite important. It's also how easy it is to get a desired look, and how quickly the file deteriorates as it is over-manipulated.

    I also think it's a comparison of individual camera models more than a comparison of sensor technologies.

    --Matt
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I would find this experiment more useful if we could play with the files. It's not just the finished product, although that is quite important. It's also how easy it is to get a desired look, and how quickly the file deteriorates as it is over-manipulated.

    I also think it's a comparison of individual camera models more than a comparison of sensor technologies.

    --Matt
    I couldn't agree more with you Matt - not a shadow of doubt that the cameras are different . . . but there are good reasons for this in the demosaicing / DR / Bayer filter- no need to think it's because of differing sensor technology.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I could come up with features to look for in the paired pictures. I voted with the majority most but not all of the time. I have no clue on the single pictures in part 2.

    scott

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    There is no difference between CMOS and CCD visually that you or I could see. Any differences you are seeing are other factors at play.

    The whole CCD VS CMOS is overhyped.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    After reading this thread, (to mangle Shakespeare a bit) ... " Methinks thou dost protest too much".

    Seriously, why the obvious underlying need to begrudge a preference or fondness for CCD rendering, be it real or perceived? Why is it so important?

    The sun is setting on the era of CCDs across the photographic landscape ... and, speaking of "religion", we will all have to drink the CMOS Kool-Aid soon enough ... in this specific case, if we wish to continue using a M Rangefinder and ALL of the M lenses ... and eventually the S system, and all of its expensive proprietary glass.

    With all the issues that Leica has had with CCDs (cracking, corroding, etc), and the migration to CMOS in the M240 and S(007), it is clearly ... over and out in short enough order. I doubt ME and SE CCD offerings will last very far in future.

    So, while fun, retailer exercises like this feel like sales pitches to convince some of us about what?

    I don't get it. While it will probably support those who think there is no difference, it most likely does little to alter the perceptions of those who do. Even if it did, what's the point? To sell more M(240)s? Are they not selling well? Are M9 users not buying? Are too many M9 users migrating to Sony? Is Leica worried that CMOS is, or will be, effecting sales because it is not perceptually different enough from upstart mirror-less competition? Does Leica need to operationally phase out the ME and SE CCD models sooner than later?

    As to the CCD/CMOS M differences I see, I think Roger outlined it well, so I won't repeat it.

    That this set of images may be hard to distinguish one from another speaks to what? Skill in post? Skill in selecting scenarios with manipulative contrast? Are images from the two cameras really indistinguishable?

    The M9 had a distinct "finger-print" in the eyes of many. Why begrudge it's unique place in Leica's history of image making tools?

    It all seems to be a moot point ... actually, soon to be a pointless point

    - Marc
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    After reading this thread, (to mangle Shakespeare a bit) ... " Methinks thou dost protest too much".

    Seriously, why the obvious underlying need to begrudge a preference or fondness for CCD rendering, be it real or perceived? Why is it so important?

    The sun is setting on the era of CCDs across the photographic landscape ... and, speaking of "religion", we will all have to drink the CMOS Kool-Aid soon enough ... in this specific case, if we wish to continue using a M Rangefinder and ALL of the M lenses ... and eventually the S system, and all of its expensive proprietary glass.

    With all the issues that Leica has had with CCDs (cracking, corroding, etc), and the migration to CMOS in the M240 and S(007), it is clearly ... over and out in short enough order. I doubt ME and SE CCD offerings will last very far in future.

    So, while fun, retailer exercises like this feel like sales pitches to convince some of us about what?

    I don't get it. While it will probably support those who think there is no difference, it most likely does little to alter the perceptions of those who do. Even if it did, what's the point? To sell more M(240)s? Are they not selling well? Are M9 users not buying? Are too many M9 users migrating to Sony? Is Leica worried that CMOS is, or will be, effecting sales because it is not perceptually different enough from upstart mirror-less competition? Does Leica need to operationally phase out the ME and SE CCD models sooner than later?

    As to the CCD/CMOS M differences I see, I think Roger outlined it well, so I won't repeat it.

    That this set of images may be hard to distinguish one from another speaks to what? Skill in post? Skill in selecting scenarios with manipulative contrast? Are images from the two cameras really indistinguishable?

    The M9 had a distinct "finger-print" in the eyes of many. Why begrudge it's unique place in Leica's history of image making tools?

    It all seems to be a moot point ... actually, soon to be a pointless point

    - Marc

    Spot on. I couldn't agree more! Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    After reading this thread, (to mangle Shakespeare a bit) ... " Methinks thou dost protest too much".

    Seriously, why the obvious underlying need to begrudge a preference or fondness for CCD rendering, be it real or perceived? Why is it so important?

    The sun is setting on the era of CCDs across the photographic landscape ... and, speaking of "religion", we will all have to drink the CMOS Kool-Aid soon enough ... in this specific case, if we wish to continue using a M Rangefinder and ALL of the M lenses ... and eventually the S system, and all of its expensive proprietary glass.

    With all the issues that Leica has had with CCDs (cracking, corroding, etc), and the migration to CMOS in the M240 and S(007), it is clearly ... over and out in short enough order. I doubt ME and SE CCD offerings will last very far in future.

    So, while fun, retailer exercises like this feel like sales pitches to convince some of us about what?

    I don't get it. While it will probably support those who think there is no difference, it most likely does little to alter the perceptions of those who do. Even if it did, what's the point? To sell more M(240)s? Are they not selling well? Are M9 users not buying? Are too many M9 users migrating to Sony? Is Leica worried that CMOS is, or will be, effecting sales because it is not perceptually different enough from upstart mirror-less competition? Does Leica need to operationally phase out the ME and SE CCD models sooner than later?

    As to the CCD/CMOS M differences I see, I think Roger outlined it well, so I won't repeat it.

    That this set of images may be hard to distinguish one from another speaks to what? Skill in post? Skill in selecting scenarios with manipulative contrast? Are images from the two cameras really indistinguishable?

    The M9 had a distinct "finger-print" in the eyes of many. Why begrudge it's unique place in Leica's history of image making tools?

    It all seems to be a moot point ... actually, soon to be a pointless point

    - Marc
    Hi Marc,
    I think such comparison can help people who want to get a digital rangefinder and trying to decide which one. It also helps people who want the functions of the M type 240 but are confused from reading all the threads about CCD vs CMOS which do not include direct comparisons.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    So, while fun, retailer exercises like this feel like sales pitches to convince some of us about what?



    - Marc



    I did not bother look at the link. I enjoyed your comment.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    The images are so close that the distinct advantages of the CMOS sensor make that the obvious choice. I shot both the M9 and M240 for years and would never go back to an M9.
    Brad Husick
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The M9 had a distinct "finger-print" in the eyes of many. Why begrudge it's unique place in Leica's history of image making tools?
    Nobody is denying the cameras are different Marc - OR that the M9 doesn't have a distinct finger print (many cameras have distinct finger prints - uncontroversial ones might be the Olympus E1 and the Sony A900)

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It all seems to be a moot point ... actually, soon to be a pointless point

    - Marc
    The reason for bringing it up is twofold

    1. People are not buying the M240 because there is a huge groundswell of opinion on the internet that the colour is no good (of course, we both know that this is a matter of personal preference - which is fine if it was the general perception, but it isn't). It's one of those stories which largely originated in the incorrect WB adjustment on the original firmware - exacerbated by a series of photos taken in the far east and widely circulated where the photographer SAID he had used AWB but actually had used Daylight WB in streets in Hong Kong (I know this because I saw the raw files with intact exif information) . This still resonates around the internet and it's still putting people off

    2. Because the CCD/CMOS / Colour thing does not seem to be founded in fact (again, I'm not denying the difference in the colours). Colour is a function of the Bayer filter and the demosaicing (and partly the DR) - NOT a function of the underlying structure of the sensor. . . . . . . But the reason I referred to it as a 'religion' is that it isn't really possible to investigate on any kind of empirical basis.

    It's certainly NOT moot - because it's costing a number of manufacturers money (not just Leica) and it's on the basis of fundamental misconceptions - and disinformation.

    Let me repeat - I'm NOT saying there is no difference between the M9 and the M240 - and I understand and respect your dislike for it . . . but what I am denying is that the reason for it is that the M9 is CCD and the M240 is CMOS!

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Ghee, just pushing sales?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    So, it is Leica WB and the Asian guy who messed up the (CMOS) sales?

    I thought it was the wrong thread pitch in the shutter release button!
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, it is Leica WB and the Asian guy who messed up the (CMOS) sales?

    I thought it was the wrong thread pitch in the shutter release button!

    Vivek, for me it was this thread My Lockups have stopped - Seite 8 - Leica User Forum that convinced me to wait for the follow on model of the M240. My M9 is still doing fine here in the very dry desert air. Why bother spending all that money on an M240 if I can get very similar looking images with my old M9?
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    .. What David has done to his credit is to show that with most photographs ...the results are too close to reliably differentiate . ...
    That's been my feeling all along. Which is why the difference between the two cameras, for me, is more dependent upon other things, responsiveness being the first amongst them.

    I'll start using my new M-P sometime this week. :-)

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Re the WB and color debate, I did the following quick, simple comparison b/w the M240 and M9:

    1. same subject, aperture, s/s, lens, light, varying only the bodies (worked quickly due to risk of changing light, handheld, no concern for focus or other details)
    2. imported to LR using each camera's embedded profile, added 1/2 stop exposure, adjusted color balance using the eyedropper on color checker's neutral gray square

    I will at some point do this kind of test in other settings, weather and time permitting, but the result was enough assurance I could get equivalent colors to the M9 with the M240, or quite close. Prior to adjusting the color balance, AWB from the M240 produced a 200K warmer image than the M9. (The M240 file is on the left, the M9's on the right.)
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ...
    The M9 had a distinct "finger-print" in the eyes of many. Why begrudge it's unique place in Leica's history of image making tools?

    It all seems to be a moot point ... actually, soon to be a pointless point
    I feel the same is true of the Olympus E-1 vs all the later models of FourThirds and Micro-FourThirds cameras that switched to higher resolution CMOS and NMOS sensors. The E-1 has an imaging quality quite different from those later models. I hesitate to call it "CCD vs CMOS" however, because the combination of the E-1's low resolution (5 Mpixel) and heavy AA filter are a MUCH bigger influence on the results than the difference in sensor technology.

    Plus the E-1 is a uniquely fine camera in the hand to use. Still have mine, will use it 'til it croaks and keep it as a shelf ornament after. It's so far my favorite of all the DSLRs I've owned, although I have to say the Panasonic L1 probably made more photos that turned into sales.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, it is Leica WB and the Asian guy who messed up the (CMOS) sales?

    I thought it was the wrong thread pitch in the shutter release button!
    Might also be a diminishing market for $7000 cameras that can be outclassed as it pertains directly to image quality by cameras that cost about half or less.

    Don't get me wrong I love Leica M's... Well rangefinders would be a more accurate statement. Leica has a niche market. They corner their market but many that are on the cusp of whether a Leica is truly affordable or a luxury for them are going to cross shop with declining economies around the world. Probably not an issue for the ultra wealthy guys or girls though.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Its interesting how much sentiments we can read in discussions about Leica, even if people just compare the color output between 2 models.
    Anyways, I am quite happy with the M, in regards of handling, sensor (including color) and lenses. Flawed, outclassed, dated, luxury subject? Who cares
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Its interesting how much sentiments we can read in discussions about Leica, even if people just compare the color output between 2 models.
    Anyways, I am quite happy with the M, in regards of handling, sensor (including color) and lenses. Flawed, outclassed, dated, luxury subject? Who cares
    Aye.

    The M9 worked well, I have no regrets about buying and using it. The M-P should do even better, based on my evaluation testing. :-)

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Nobody is denying the cameras are different Marc - OR that the M9 doesn't have a distinct finger print (many cameras have distinct finger prints - uncontroversial ones might be the Olympus E1 and the Sony A900)



    The reason for bringing it up is twofold

    1. People are not buying the M240 because there is a huge groundswell of opinion on the internet that the colour is no good (of course, we both know that this is a matter of personal preference - which is fine if it was the general perception, but it isn't). It's one of those stories which largely originated in the incorrect WB adjustment on the original firmware - exacerbated by a series of photos taken in the far east and widely circulated where the photographer SAID he had used AWB but actually had used Daylight WB in streets in Hong Kong (I know this because I saw the raw files with intact exif information) . This still resonates around the internet and it's still putting people off

    2. Because the CCD/CMOS / Colour thing does not seem to be founded in fact (again, I'm not denying the difference in the colours). Colour is a function of the Bayer filter and the demosaicing (and partly the DR) - NOT a function of the underlying structure of the sensor. . . . . . . But the reason I referred to it as a 'religion' is that it isn't really possible to investigate on any kind of empirical basis.

    It's certainly NOT moot - because it's costing a number of manufacturers money (not just Leica) and it's on the basis of fundamental misconceptions - and disinformation.

    Let me repeat - I'm NOT saying there is no difference between the M9 and the M240 - and I understand and respect your dislike for it . . . but what I am denying is that the reason for it is that the M9 is CCD and the M240 is CMOS!
    Thank you, I truly appreciate your candid response Jono.

    While I never saw the incorrect WB shots of Hong Kong, as you know I did work with the M240 (with new firmware) and found the color rendering in the broad variety of lighting scenarios I face to be inconsistent, and skin tones not to my liking. However, that is strictly the personal preference of one person.

    What I can say is that I initially did attribute it to CMOS, and that may well NOT be the case. After all, I've always been a strong advocate of the contrast and color rendering from the A900 ... which used a CMOS sensor. In fact, the A900 suffered from the same drawbacks that are attributed to CCD cameras ... so perhaps there may be a clue there? Subsequent Sony cameras lost that magic IMO, but performed better in other functional areas with favored buzz words of the week..

    On the other hand, too many of my favored cameras just happened to have been CCD with very similar image response, and that just added to the "belief". So much so that I have been willing to go along with the short comings of CCD to preserve the continuity of that look and feel.

    So, perhaps comparisons to CCDs may do more harm than good, because it places the focus on sensors rather than other contributing factors and perpetuates the debate? As I suggested, matching images in the name of CMOS verses CCD just triggers suspicions of skilled post manipulation, and selective imagery to prove a point.

    BTW, when I say a moot point, it meant that every thing will be CMOS based quite soon enough. Can't debate what doesn't exist.

    If Leica is experiencing a slump, I think they need to better promte the rangefinder experience. IMO, most people that discount that unique experience simply do not get it ... and maybe more communication regarding the Rangefinder Way verse others would do more good?

    That is a debate I'd gladly engage in ....

    Thanks again,

    - Marc
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    This might be a bit lame and uninformed, but I see them as more different than one better or right over the other.

    I am a believer that it is mostly about perception, the eyes and brains of us all are different and we all have preferences mixing up attitudes even more.
    Another factor is, the item you originally had becomes the norm, anything else that comes along later you feel is wrong. It can apply to anything.

    With sensors its, Two steps forward, one back, repeat.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Thank you, I truly appreciate your candid response Jono.
    . . And your reply Marc

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    While I never saw the incorrect WB shots of Hong Kong, as you know I did work with the M240 (with new firmware) and found the color rendering in the broad variety of lighting scenarios I face to be inconsistent, and skin tones not to my liking. However, that is strictly the personal preference of one person.
    Quite right - and I've never, for a minute, denied the absolute right of others to prefer the M9 (of course I don't have to agree). . . I just don't think it's to do with CCD/CMOS arguments - and our mutual like of the A900 contributes to this argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    If Leica is experiencing a slump,
    I don't think they are Marc - and I think that the M240 is selling well - BUT I'm aware of a lot of people who aren't buying them because of the CCD/CMOS arguments (more on LUF than here indeed).

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I think they need to better promte the rangefinder experience. IMO, most people that discount that unique experience simply do not get it ... and maybe more communication regarding the Rangefinder Way verse others would do more good?
    That is a debate I'd gladly engage in ....

    Thanks again,

    - Marc
    I couldn't agree more -

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, it is Leica WB and the Asian guy who messed up the (CMOS) sales?
    Maybe you didn't see it Vivek - it went on for months (mostly on Chinese forums and LUF, not here) - I ended up as a messenger (transferring files to Leica) and got duly shot! But I think it still resonates.

    There are so many things that get 'stuck' in the public perception on the web - I'm sure you can think of lots of them - two that spring instantly to mind are the wonderfulness of the 'king of bokeh' which now sells for more secondhand than a recent 35 'cron Asph. . . or the lovely 75 Summicron, which is apparently 'clinical'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I thought it was the wrong thread pitch in the shutter release button!


    I'd forgotten about that!

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    This might be a bit lame and uninformed, but I see them as more different than one better or right over the other.

    I am a believer that it is mostly about perception, the eyes and brains of us all are different and we all have preferences mixing up attitudes even more.
    Another factor is, the item you originally had becomes the norm, anything else that comes along later you feel is wrong. It can apply to anything.

    With sensors its, Two steps forward, one back, repeat.
    This could very well be the case for me. I have used M6 about 30 years ago. Even at that time I tried Leica R but for some reason, even though the R had more functions and lens selection etc I allways connected better to the M. I have also allways liked simple and reduced cameras, so no wonder I find the A7 series and most mirrorless overloaded and dont "connect" so well to them.
    Still I use the A7II and get good results with it (Yes, for some occasion I do want Tele or I do want the flexibility of a zoom or the speed of AF).
    Many s
    Sensors have become so good that user interface and lenses have become maybe more important when deciding for a system.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Maybe you didn't see it Vivek - it went on for months (mostly on Chinese forums and LUF, not here) - I ended up as a messenger (transferring files to Leica) and got duly shot! But I think it still resonates.

    There are so many things that get 'stuck' in the public perception on the web - I'm sure you can think of lots of them - two that spring instantly to mind are the wonderfulness of the 'king of bokeh' which now sells for more secondhand than a recent 35 'cron Asph. . . or the lovely 75 Summicron, which is apparently 'clinical'.



    I'd forgotten about that!
    As you all know I also like to join the discussions on the internet but I think we must not forget: The internet forums are just a small percentage of people who actually own and use those cameras. I am sure there are many just out shooting with it. So it is allways the best to not overrate such internet discussions, specially as long as you do not know the people you are talking to, and make own experiences and build up an own opinion. In case of Leica a good example was the M8, which quite some people in the internet saw as a flawed camera, but for me it worked quite well and was my main camera for some years.
    In case of Leica one problem might be the premium prices, where people might expect perfect products from the first moment, which does not always happen.
    The fact that Leica allows us to use still the same lenses we have used for 10s of years is probably another thing which makes the desgin of sensor, coverglass etc. more difficult and expensive. The good thing is that-in my experience- Leica has become more open and ver reliable, that they adress problems and find solutions. OK, in the case of the cover glass problem of the M9 a little pressure from the internet was necessary first
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    This might be a bit lame and uninformed, but I see them as more different than one better or right over the other.

    I am a believer that it is mostly about perception, the eyes and brains of us all are different and we all have preferences mixing up attitudes even more.
    Another factor is, the item you originally had becomes the norm, anything else that comes along later you feel is wrong. It can apply to anything.

    With sensors its, Two steps forward, one back, repeat.
    This may be the crux of the problem ... at least for me.

    "Continuity" is a discussion I've had with a number of photographers. It may not be a matter of being wrong, instead it is "different" when different is not what one wants.

    I'd like the better functionality of the M240, but not at the expense of an interruption in the continuity I've managed to accomplish with a digital M9 and with my S system.

    - Marc

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This may be the crux of the problem ... at least for me.

    "Continuity" is a discussion I've had with a number of photographers. It may not be a matter of being wrong, instead it is "different" when different is not what one wants.

    I'd like the better functionality of the M240, but not at the expense of an interruption in the continuity I've managed to accomplish with a digital M9 and with my S system.

    - Marc
    This statement most accurately reflects my thoughts.

    I find that I love the idea of updated features (better iso, faster AF where applicable, etc). But it's always at a cost of having to relearn to process files. Having to learn the quirks of the sensor can be frustrating to say the least.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Maybe you didn't see it Vivek - it went on for months (mostly on Chinese forums and LUF, not here) - I ended up as a messenger (transferring files to Leica) and got duly shot! But I think it still resonates.

    There are so many things that get 'stuck' in the public perception on the web - I'm sure you can think of lots of them - two that spring instantly to mind are the wonderfulness of the 'king of bokeh' which now sells for more secondhand than a recent 35 'cron Asph. . . or the lovely 75 Summicron, which is apparently 'clinical'.





    I'd forgotten about that!
    A couple of years ago, I looked up the "reviews" and comments about the AA 75/2 (particularly from an ancient Leica M reviewer from the UK- I guess he has retired now) and I understand what you mean about that. But these are the folks (who get influenced by such reviews) that Leica are eager to cater to.

    [I think Leica needs a different strategy. May be get back to the roots? Their magazine has become a joke, for example.

    If a retailer is the only last hope for them to set opinions right, it is sad.]


    Sorry, if I opened my mouth a bit much.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    A couple of years ago, I looked up the "reviews" and comments about the AA 75/2 (particularly from an ancient Leica M reviewer from the UK- I guess he has retired now) and I understand what you mean about that. But these are the folks (who get influenced by such reviews) that Leica are eager to cater to.

    [I think Leica needs a different strategy. May be get back to the roots? Their magazine has become a joke, for example.

    If a retailer is the only last hope for them to set opinions right, it is sad.]


    Sorry, if I opened my mouth a bit much.
    Not at al Vivek. These are useful discussions . In this case David is a retailer, but he's also a good photographer and an honest bloke. He will do an honest job with the statistics, and I'm 90% certain that this wasn't sponsored. The results won't (can't) be definitive, but I'm sure he won't suggest they are.

    I do think it'll be interesting though, and your vote would add a little (and it's interesting second guessing). You aren't prostituting yourself to a marketing exercise by doing it. Why not?

    The magazine seems just to have become a standard product rag : I gave up ages ago. Sad.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I will opine here (fwiw) that all modern Leica lenses would do just majestically on the M240. All those old stuff (Mandler, Cosina, etc) are better off on an M8 or film or the MM.

    (I also hope that the price of the 50 AA drops so that I can get one. )
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    I shoot fast and process fairly lightly. I'm not surprised when I can't always tell which sensor or lens was used to produce an image from a scene that I didn't see myself (case 2 of David's exercises). And I don't draw very far reaching conclusions from any of this.

    However, I think internet opinion has to take second place to the fairly rotten state of the world's economies in affecting the rate of M[240] family sales. In the meantime, America (3.5% growth in GDP -- yay!) and maybe the UK (where morale has improved since the flogging has ended) will take up the slack, while growth in the Far East stutters, and fewer Italians purchase new Leicas to go in their lovely leather Italian cases. One result of the recent observation of increasing wealth inequity is that the old stereotype of the doctor or dentist with HIS Leica has given way to the financial industry boomer with HIS or HER Leikravitz. (Sorry, I'm just before their time and don't know why I should care about Lenny -- but I might sign up for a Joplin Mercedes-Benz.)

    Kudos to Jono for trying to keep some sense in lens comparisons, but I think the market impact will be a wash.

    scott

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    However, I think internet opinion has to take second place to the fairly rotten state of the world's economies in affecting the rate of M[240] family sales.
    I disagree.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    If indeed M240 sales are slow I would have thought it has more to do with competition and perceived value for money rather than CCD vs. CMOS technology.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    If indeed M240 sales are slow I would have thought it has more to do with competition and perceived value for money rather than CCD vs. CMOS technology.
    Agree with this 100% and by most accounts the M240 launched with "one foot in the grave" as it applied to technology it competed with then. Now 2 years later the competition is even stiffer when it comes to specs with other (possibly more advanced) FF 24mp sensors going for $12-2500... Not to mention the senosrs with more than 24mp going for only slightly more coin.

    Who would've thought 5 years ago that you could buy a digital MF camera for less than a digital M!?! That's perspective and reality.

    ***DISCLAIMER***

    I do still love the M9 and the Monochrome derivative. I suspect there has been much tweaking of the M240 profiles since launch and fully admit my bias is based on a launch model that I preordered/declined after testing. I've move on to a competitor's camera system and for mypurposes the versatility is a better match for what I do. There are some great photographers making the M240 sing as they did with the film M's, M8, M9 and derivatives. If money were no object I'd buy a Monochrom and probably never sell it until something truly better came along. If someone else wants to take a stab at a more affordable Monochrom camera it would be welcomed.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    If indeed M240 sales are slow I would have thought it has more to do with competition and perceived value for money rather than CCD vs. CMOS technology.
    Even this has got twisted!
    I've no information to suggest that M240 sales are slow . . . all that I'm aware of is that some people aren't buying because they think CCD is better than CMOS . . .and I don't think that's a good reason . . . .

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    If only some aren't buying what is the big deal? More than some refused to buy the M8 because it was digital. Life goes on and so should should Leica.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Even this has got twisted!
    I've no information to suggest that M240 sales are slow . . . all that I'm aware of is that some people aren't buying because they think CCD is better than CMOS . . .and I don't think that's a good reason . . . .
    Jono, I'm afraid that's the nature of this beast
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Agree with this 100% and by most accounts the M240 launched with "one foot in the grave" as it applied to technology it competed with then. Now 2 years later the competition is even stiffer when it comes to specs with other (possibly more advanced) FF 24mp sensors going for $12-2500... Not to mention the senosrs with more than 24mp going for only slightly more coin.

    Who would've thought 5 years ago that you could buy a digital MF camera for less than a digital M!?! That's perspective and reality.

    ***DISCLAIMER***

    I do still love the M9 and the Monochrome derivative. I suspect there has been much tweaking of the M240 profiles since launch and fully admit my bias is based on a launch model that I preordered/declined after testing. I've move on to a competitor's camera system and for mypurposes the versatility is a better match for what I do. There are some great photographers making the M240 sing as they did with the film M's, M8, M9 and derivatives. If money were no object I'd buy a Monochrom and probably never sell it until something truly better came along. If someone else wants to take a stab at a more affordable Monochrom camera it would be welcomed.
    I regularly set out with every intention of using my M9-P but almost inevitably reach for the M240.

    Reasons include the greater dynamic range, the superior high ISO performance and the option to select faster auto ISO speeds, the option of using Live View and an EVF together with the ability to frame with precision, the vastly superior screen, Focus Peaking and Image Magnification with the Focus Button, more MP...

    When I compare files out of camera I have a preference for the M9 colour, just, but the last time I relied on out-of-camera files was in the last century.

    I'm afraid my M9-P now has the role of a very expensive backup camera.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    I regularly set out with every intention of using my M9-P but almost inevitably reach for the M240.

    Reasons include the greater dynamic range, the superior high ISO performance and the option to select faster auto ISO speeds, the option of using Live View and an EVF together with the ability to frame with precision, the vastly superior screen, Focus Peaking and Image Magnification with the Focus Button, more MP...

    When I compare files out of camera I have a preference for the M9 colour, just, but the last time I relied on out-of-camera files was in the last century.

    I'm afraid my M9-P now has the role of a very expensive backup camera.
    I hear you but my tests included processing test shots to make my decision on whether or not to buy as well.

    I still preferred the M9-P by a great margin but I digress because I've since sold my M9 last summer as it wasn't getting much use once I got really comfortable with the A7 series.
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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I suspect there has been much tweaking of the M240 profiles since launch and fully admit my bias is based on a launch model that I preordered/declined after testing.
    Not much tweaking . . . just a correction of the original problem with the AWB (I still wonder why anyone uses that anyway!). But it sounds like your judgement was made before it was sorted out.

    I have a Sony A7ii, which I really like . . but I still far prefer the files from the M240, both in terms of colour and resolution.

    But the bottom line is still that the real reason for wanting a Leica M is because you want to shoot with a rangefinder - if that's what you want, then it produces fantastic results - if you don't, then it's not the right camera.

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    Re: CCD or CMOS - you choose

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Not much tweaking . . . just a correction of the original problem with the AWB (I still wonder why anyone uses that anyway!). But it sounds like your judgement was made before it was sorted out.

    I have a Sony A7ii, which I really like . . but I still far prefer the files from the M240, both in terms of colour and resolution.

    But the bottom line is still that the real reason for wanting a Leica M is because you want to shoot with a rangefinder - if that's what you want, then it produces fantastic results - if you don't, then it's not the right camera.
    Yeah I actually love shooting with a rangefinder between 24mm and 90mm but for me there is balance between what I love and what give me the most value. When it comes to versatility the A7 ultimately won me over but that's not a knock on Leica at all. The M9 was the first camera I ever really "loved" and it may possibly be the only one that I have thus far.

    Regarding AWB... I shoot a color checker so AWB or not it's a matter of a few mouse clicks.

    So like many say the Leica is the emotional decision while a dslr/mirrorless is usually more of a functional one.
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