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Thread: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

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    T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    So, I've been wanting for some time to have a 2nd lightweight body to complement the M240 that has autofocus capability ( my eyes aren't what they used to be ) , is lightweight, and has a nice set of interchangeable zooms. There are times where I find AF and zooming very useful on travels etc. One additional consideration was that it should work well with M lenses for when I wanted a large aperture prime without having to invest in yet another set of fast lenses.

    I was thinking about the Fuji X and even picked up a lens and the M adapter but never ended up getting a camera. I have owned an XE1 in the distant past. But I recall that it's performance with M lenses wasn't that great and while the images and ergonomics were nice, there was something missing for me. So, now with the T, I've seen reports that it works really well with M lenses, and it's native T lenses seem great based on the photos I've seen here from Jono and others and think the interface looks great, despite the few quirks that have been reported. The Fuji X100T is also quite enticing, but I'm worried it's performance with M lenses is probably exactly the same as it was. So if you were in my position, which would you choose? The T or the Fuji?

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodleica View Post
    The Fuji X100T is also quite enticing, but I'm worried it's performance with M lenses is probably exactly the same as it was.
    If you're looking for an interchangeable lens system, then the X100T with its fixed lens isn't for you. That said, it has ~35mm focal length and appears to facus quickly and accurately from what I've read. The Leica T system is intriguing, but the price...

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I am not a fan of the Fuhi X-trans-sensor.
    I would choose the T. it has also the advantage you can use your M-lenses on it.
    (I have used both cameras for some time)

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I would choose the new DLUX and I did.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    If you're wanting lens interchangeability, then the T is the only game in town, apart from the X-E1/2 or X-T1.
    Why not consider an X-Vario? It has a fixed lens for sure, but the lens is exceptional, and they are very cost effective at the moment.
    Gary

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by segedi View Post
    If you're looking for an interchangeable lens system, then the X100T with its fixed lens isn't for you. That said, it has ~35mm focal length and appears to facus quickly and accurately from what I've read. The Leica T system is intriguing, but the price...
    My bad, I meant the X-T1

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    I would choose the new DLUX and I did.
    The DLux looks very nice, but I do want an interchangeable lens system so it would be the T or a Fuji.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gbealnz View Post
    If you're wanting lens interchangeability, then the T is the only game in town, apart from the X-E1/2 or X-T1.
    Why not consider an X-Vario? It has a fixed lens for sure, but the lens is exceptional, and they are very cost effective at the moment.
    Gary
    The X-vario is very nice for sure and has an APS-C size sensor. From what I understand, the T with the 18-56 is very similar with the advantage of interchangeability. I have a sony RX-100 and I miss a larger sensor and interchangeability.

    Obviously, I'm leaning towards the T....

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I am not a fan of the Fuhi X-trans-sensor.
    I would choose the T. it has also the advantage you can use your M-lenses on it.
    (I have used both cameras for some time)
    Thanks - have you found ( or have ) good examples with M lenses? I think it might have been Sean Reid who did a review and stated the T is better with M lenses than the sony's or Fuji and is only bettered by the Ricoh GXR. I've tried the Sony's and Fuji and gave up earlier.....

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    You have asked a very pertinent question, and one I have asked myself many times. (and also spend a lot of money on trying to figure out)

    I know you stated interchangeable lenses, but what I have found for me is that once I have a another system with interchangeable lenses, is that I am temped, and often succumb, to buying many of the extra lenses for that second system. In the end, I end up building up two (or three) independent systems with overlapping focal lengths.

    I have ended up with a M system, Canon EOS full frame, and Olympus EM1/5II set up. Plus specific fixed lens cameras. Fun, but a lot of overlap. (and $$$)

    What I found is the X-Vario is a great daytime camera for travel, vacation, party (with a flash), and the M is the go for high resolution, night, and super high quality. (In addition the X-Vario at 28mm and F3.5 with ISO 1600 at night, or indoors, is fabulous.)

    So in my humble opinion, the M system, complimented with the X-Vario is a great travel, vacation system, the Xvario is very light, (surprising light) and with 28-70, a very versatile compliment to the M System. Also, if you scale up a RAW file at 70mm to 90mm (Photoshop enlarge 1.3 times approx.) it is hardly distinguishable from a straight file but now at 90mm, not just 70mm. (seriously I mean it)

    So you end up with a great combo in my opinion, which also saves you the problem of 'gear creep'. (buying more because it's there)

    Lastly two comments on the Leica X system: I also have the X 35mm F1.7 but end up using the X-vario more, and 2: for the X-Vario, I set the exposure to 250 second, F stop to A, and ISO to Auto 1600 max, and everything seems to come together. Sharp (250/second) picture, Any F stop is great on that camera, and up to 1600 ISO in daylight is never an issue, ever.

    Seriously, I have already spent the money already, so trying to save you some $$$.

    All the best with your decision. Good luck, it is a great big candy store out there....

    Dave

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    X-113 would be the first choice if I were just going with a walk around camera and only had say an S-system (and didn't feel like lugging it)... But my M makes a fine walk around camera. And so does the A7II if you don't care about looks.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodleica View Post
    The DLux looks very nice, but I do want an interchangeable lens system so it would be the T or a Fuji.
    The support of LightRoom for Fuji X-Trans unfortunately still does not seem to convince a lot of people...

    If LightRoom is important to your workflow I would probably go T...

    If you are OK using Iridient Developer (or Capture One) you will be fine with Fuji...
    Last edited by JorisV; 28th March 2015 at 00:09.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    If the choice was specifically and only between a Leica T and a Fuji X, I'd take the Leica with no further thought. I'm not interested in Fuji due to the issues with processing the X trans sensor data and, overall, I'm not thrilled about the bodies' controls either. I tried a couple and returned them.

    The little I've experimented with the T at the store, I liked it a lot. If the costs of body and lenses doesn't bother you (they're like an APS-C crop on M prices... ;-), it's a nice system that seems to do well with M lenses too.

    I went a different way ... My complementary second system is an Olympus Micro-FourThirds. Depending on which body you choose, this is a bit smaller and lighter than the M (E-M1 is about the same, E-PL7 is about 30% less). Both together cost just about what the T body costs. Even the non-pro-grade lenses in the system are good performers (the ultra small and light M.Zuiko 40-150/4-5.6 amazes me with how well it performs for $300 retail) and I get the benefit of very good image stabilization, fast AF, a big lens system to choose from, and a remarkable amount of customization capabilities. An E-PL7 with five premium lenses and super quality EVF will cost less than a Summilux-M 50mm lens. M and R lenses longer than 35mm adapt nicely to Micro-FourThirds too (cropping FoV to effective 2x focal length, of course). I had the FT/mFT system before I bought the M9, added the E-M1 in 2013, added the E-PL7 earlier this year, and have a full range of native lenses for it as well as the M-mount (and F-mount, and R-mount) lens adapter(s). It's a terrific system.

    And I added a third way as well ... I bought a Leica X typ 113. I bought it for the superb lens and simplicity of the body, similarity to an film M body. Just one lens but what a wonderful performer: the equivalent of buying a Summilux-M 35mm ASPH with attached body at less than 1/2 the price, with good AF, focus down to 8 inches, excellent optional EVF, movie capture, clean sensitivity up to ISO 6400, etc etc. For me, it's the fantastic modern lens with AF as complement to my 'Lux 35 v2 on the M, and the "I just want a camera with me and I'm not going to bother with changing lenses" nature of the X that has charmed me, along with the simplicity and ease of use.

    There are a bazillion ways to cut this and rationalize what you want. As I said up top, for me if the Fuji X or Leica T were the only options, I'd rationalize my way into a Leica T instantly. I just like Leica's designs and notions of camera functionality much more.

    G

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    If you're considering the X-Vario, then you should consider the D-Lux. I know you want an interchangeable system, but between these two the D-Lux fits in your pocket, and that's pretty handy as a "second" camera. The image quality of the new D-Lux is miles ahead of the D-Lux 6.
    Brad Husick

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Isn't Leica Stellar? Why not recommend the original Panasonic?
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    X-Trans processing is a non-issue and has been that way for a long time now. I wouldn't waste time with adapting lenses however, as the Fujinon lenses are superb.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    You have asked a very pertinent question, and one I have asked myself many times. (and also spend a lot of money on trying to figure out)

    I know you stated interchangeable lenses, but what I have found for me is that once I have a another system with interchangeable lenses, is that I am temped, and often succumb, to buying many of the extra lenses for that second system. In the end, I end up building up two (or three) independent systems with overlapping focal lengths.

    I have ended up with a M system, Canon EOS full frame, and Olympus EM1/5II set up. Plus specific fixed lens cameras. Fun, but a lot of overlap. (and $$$)

    What I found is the X-Vario is a great daytime camera for travel, vacation, party (with a flash), and the M is the go for high resolution, night, and super high quality. (In addition the X-Vario at 28mm and F3.5 with ISO 1600 at night, or indoors, is fabulous.)

    So in my humble opinion, the M system, complimented with the X-Vario is a great travel, vacation system, the Xvario is very light, (surprising light) and with 28-70, a very versatile compliment to the M System. Also, if you scale up a RAW file at 70mm to 90mm (Photoshop enlarge 1.3 times approx.) it is hardly distinguishable from a straight file but now at 90mm, not just 70mm. (seriously I mean it)

    So you end up with a great combo in my opinion, which also saves you the problem of 'gear creep'. (buying more because it's there)

    Lastly two comments on the Leica X system: I also have the X 35mm F1.7 but end up using the X-vario more, and 2: for the X-Vario, I set the exposure to 250 second, F stop to A, and ISO to Auto 1600 max, and everything seems to come together. Sharp (250/second) picture, Any F stop is great on that camera, and up to 1600 ISO in daylight is never an issue, ever.

    Seriously, I have already spent the money already, so trying to save you some $$$.

    All the best with your decision. Good luck, it is a great big candy store out there....

    Dave
    Thanks for your detailed response Dave. It's good to know and I completely understand. I've been here before so I know what you're saying. In my case, I may actually sometimes opt for not taking the M ( like when hiking or long day of waking etc ) but have one or two M lenses with the zooms of the T ( or whichever one I end up choosing ). Hence my thoughts of having an interchangeable system. I have hip issues and can't carry as much weight as I used to.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    X-113 would be the first choice if I were just going with a walk around camera and only had say an S-system (and didn't feel like lugging it)... But my M makes a fine walk around camera. And so does the A7II if you don't care about looks.
    I think sony makes fine innovative cameras but having owned some Nex's in the past I realized that they are just not for me. And they don't work as well with M lenses.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    If the choice was specifically and only between a Leica T and a Fuji X, I'd take the Leica with no further thought. I'm not interested in Fuji due to the issues with processing the X trans sensor data and, overall, I'm not thrilled about the bodies' controls either. I tried a couple and returned them.

    The little I've experimented with the T at the store, I liked it a lot. If the costs of body and lenses doesn't bother you (they're like an APS-C crop on M prices... ;-), it's a nice system that seems to do well with M lenses too.

    I went a different way ... My complementary second system is an Olympus Micro-FourThirds. Depending on which body you choose, this is a bit smaller and lighter than the M (E-M1 is about the same, E-PL7 is about 30% less). Both together cost just about what the T body costs. Even the non-pro-grade lenses in the system are good performers (the ultra small and light M.Zuiko 40-150/4-5.6 amazes me with how well it performs for $300 retail) and I get the benefit of very good image stabilization, fast AF, a big lens system to choose from, and a remarkable amount of customization capabilities. An E-PL7 with five premium lenses and super quality EVF will cost less than a Summilux-M 50mm lens. M and R lenses longer than 35mm adapt nicely to Micro-FourThirds too (cropping FoV to effective 2x focal length, of course). I had the FT/mFT system before I bought the M9, added the E-M1 in 2013, added the E-PL7 earlier this year, and have a full range of native lenses for it as well as the M-mount (and F-mount, and R-mount) lens adapter(s). It's a terrific system.

    And I added a third way as well ... I bought a Leica X typ 113. I bought it for the superb lens and simplicity of the body, similarity to an film M body. Just one lens but what a wonderful performer: the equivalent of buying a Summilux-M 35mm ASPH with attached body at less than 1/2 the price, with good AF, focus down to 8 inches, excellent optional EVF, movie capture, clean sensitivity up to ISO 6400, etc etc. For me, it's the fantastic modern lens with AF as complement to my 'Lux 35 v2 on the M, and the "I just want a camera with me and I'm not going to bother with changing lenses" nature of the X that has charmed me, along with the simplicity and ease of use.

    There are a bazillion ways to cut this and rationalize what you want. As I said up top, for me if the Fuji X or Leica T were the only options, I'd rationalize my way into a Leica T instantly. I just like Leica's designs and notions of camera functionality much more.

    G
    Thanks for the detailed response Godfrey. I am definitely leaning towards the T. As I mentioned I've owned a Fuji before and I think they are very nice, but I found them somehow lacking. It could be the X-Trans sensor, but I just wasn't getting the resolution I was used to.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    The support of LightRoom for Fuji X-Trans unfortunately still does not seem to convince a lot of people...

    If LightRoom is important to your workflow I would probably go T...

    If you are OK using Iridient Developer (or Capture One) you will be fine with Fuji...
    Yes, LR is what I use. And I have Fuji files from my earlier X-E1 and I wasn't completely happy. I know there are 3rd party tools and it's probably a matter of time before Adobe catches up.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    X-Trans processing is a non-issue and has been that way for a long time now. I wouldn't waste time with adapting lenses however, as the Fujinon lenses are superb.
    True, but I don't want to accumulate another set of prime lenses, rather get good zooms and use my M's in which I've already invested.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    If you're considering the X-Vario, then you should consider the D-Lux. I know you want an interchangeable system, but between these two the D-Lux fits in your pocket, and that's pretty handy as a "second" camera. The image quality of the new D-Lux is miles ahead of the D-Lux 6.
    Brad, I didn't realize the new D-lux was a M4/3rd size sensor and I hadn't quite caught up on Leica ( and pansonics ) newer compact offerings. It's definitely worth looking at as a pocketable solution. I may just get one to have in my pocket separately from what I'm looking for in my original query. It looks like the best pocketable thing out there.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Between the X and the T I'd probably go A7s which actually DOES play well with M mount lenses as a back up to your M. One comment of importance for those that shoot wide angle lenses is that going the A7s route will also keeps your wide lenses as wides as it's FF. You wouldn't need to bother with an external viewfinder for lenses wider than 28mm. I don't know if 12megapixels is enough for you and that's something to consider as well. It's the one major reason I DON'T own an A7s.

    Between the Fuji X and the Leica T an important thing to ask yourself is do you want/need an EVF. The Fuji comes with it and it's an accessory for the T. I'd assume that the Leica T was natively better with M lenses but I've only handled both in store. I've never lived with either of them.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    The Sony is nice but if you intend to use M-lenses on it - keep in mind everything wider than 50mm will have soft corners. At least my experience with the 35 Summicron asph and some 21mm lenses.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I've only had brief experience with both X (the Vario) and the T, in dealer showrooms. In favor of the X, it's a great user experience and the files seem to be good. In favor of the T, it's flexible and, I wonder if the T series doesn't have more of a future.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The Sony is nice but if you intend to use M-lenses on it - keep in mind everything wider than 50mm will have soft corners. At least my experience with the 35 Summicron asph and some 21mm lenses.
    Depends on the lens.

    I found that my Leica branded aspherical lenses tend to do worse on the Sony bodies as there aren't the built in corrections and they have thicker sensor glass I'm told. Never really had much issue with my Voigtlander 21 or 35 (even on the A7 or A7R with the 35/1.2.)
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Depends on the lens.

    I found that my Leica branded aspherical lenses tend to do worse on the Sony bodies as there aren't the built in corrections and they have thicker sensor glass I'm told. Never really had much issue with my Voigtlander 21 or 35 (even on the A7 or A7R with the 35/1.2.)
    The Sonys look great - are innovative and seem to have stellar image quality. WA issues withstanding, my concern is that the native zooms seem big, large and heavy. My original need to have leica was to go light and small and I'd ideally like a complementary solution that's light and small and if I've to sacrifice ff that's fine bc I still have ff with the M.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Sony A7s
    AF, great primes (35 / 55), some zooms, and full frame so you can still mount your M glass.
    Oh and that ISO
    A7s+35/2.8 come in lighter than my M240 body alone... and more ergonomic.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjg284 View Post
    Sony A7s
    AF, great primes (35 / 55), some zooms, and full frame so you can still mount your M glass.
    Oh and that ISO
    A7s+35/2.8 come in lighter than my M240 body alone... and more ergonomic.
    The A7s is an amazing camera. But I find the resolution lacking for my applications and am more enticed by the A7ii. However, one reason I really enjoy the M ( besides liking RF ) is the lightweight nature of the kit. Looking at the specs, the A7 series don't seem to have too many zoom lens to choose from and the zooms seem quite heavy and large. But I did notice that there is a new 24-240 and something like that paired with some M's might make a good travel kit if I can sacrifice WA. I want to use my M primes I've already invested in, so my interest in any new kit would be the zooms.

    I am concerned about the T perhaps being a dead end solution from leica. It doesn't seem to be selling that well and it's APS-C. On the other hand, Fuji is doing really well. The advantage of APS-C is the smaller and lighter lens that go with it as compared to what you have with the A7 series.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    If small size and zooms are your primary goal then why not go Micro 4/3? The IQ is good enough for most and the 2X crop will give you the most range on the long end while still remaining relatively compact.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    If small size and zooms are your primary goal then why not go Micro 4/3? The IQ is good enough for most and the 2X crop will give you the most range on the long end while still remaining relatively compact.
    I've to admit, I've not looked in that direction at all other than occasionally/cursorily looking at OM-D and GH reviews. My brain always leads me towards the largest possible sensor with the constraints I have and APS-c fits that. I really do also like the Leica T, and I'm sure I would enjoy shooting with it, cost being the only consideration. But I'm now evaluating tradeoff against the sony as well, something I hadn't seriously considered. I had written sony off based on my past experiences with Nex, but the A7's do seem to be in a different league.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by woodleica View Post
    I've to admit, I've not looked in that direction at all other than occasionally/cursorily looking at OM-D and GH reviews. My brain always leads me towards the largest possible sensor with the constraints I have and APS-c fits that. I really do also like the Leica T, and I'm sure I would enjoy shooting with it, cost being the only consideration. But I'm now evaluating tradeoff against the sony as well, something I hadn't seriously considered. I had written sony off based on my past experiences with Nex, but the A7's do seem to be in a different league.
    HI There
    The Sony cameras are great, but if you're going to use your M glass on them a lot you should be aware that they aren't fantastic in the corners for lenses wider than 50mm - especially at infinity. This seems to be as a result of the thicker cover glass on the Sony sensors. If you want to use telephoto lenses, then the lenses will be pretty much the same size as the full frame lenses from Canon or Nikon.

    The T on the other hand seems to behave very well with all the M lenses (with the added benefit that the lens is recorded in the exif information).

    With respect to µ43 - IF you like the 4:3 aspect ratio better than 3:2, then the difference in sensor size really isn't that great (13mm high as opposed to 15.5mm in APSc). The image quality is great, and the E-M5ii particularly is a great camera - lots of excellent and small lenses too.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Fair summary of the current state of things.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Well, since I have Leica FF (M-P), Leica APS-C (X), and Olympus mFT (E-M1 and E-PL7), I find that all three have their strengths and weaknesses as cameras ... and all three produce superb image quality.

    I use the E-M1 as my "technical, must get the shot" camera. It's fast, outrageously full-featured, solid as a rock, and there are some amazing lenses for it. It's a great format for longish FoV zoom lenses as they can be much smaller and lighter than the same FoV for APS-C or FF. The image stabilization is amazing too ... It's so much easier to hand-hold the the E-M1 with an effective 300mm FoV at f/5.6 than it is to hand-hold the Sony A7 or Leica M-P with a 180mm f/4 fitted.

    As I said before, there are a bazillion ways that work... :-)

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Thanks for summary Jono. That's probably the current state of photography summarized in the fewest and most eloquent words possible.

    Yes, I'm aware of the foibles of the sony system. The only one I know little about is m4/3rds.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI There
    The Sony cameras are great, but if you're going to use your M glass on them a lot you should be aware that they aren't fantastic in the corners for lenses wider than 50mm - especially at infinity. This seems to be as a result of the thicker cover glass on the Sony sensors. If you want to use telephoto lenses, then the lenses will be pretty much the same size as the full frame lenses from Canon or Nikon.

    The T on the other hand seems to behave very well with all the M lenses (with the added benefit that the lens is recorded in the exif information).

    With respect to µ43 - IF you like the 4:3 aspect ratio better than 3:2, then the difference in sensor size really isn't that great (13mm high as opposed to 15.5mm in APSc). The image quality is great, and the E-M5ii particularly is a great camera - lots of excellent and small lenses too.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Thanks Godfrey, I'll definitely take a look at the E-M1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Well, since I have Leica FF (M-P), Leica APS-C (X), and Olympus mFT (E-M1 and E-PL7), I find that all three have their strengths and weaknesses as cameras ... and all three produce superb image quality.

    I use the E-M1 as my "technical, must get the shot" camera. It's fast, outrageously full-featured, solid as a rock, and there are some amazing lenses for it. It's a great format for longish FoV zoom lenses as they can be much smaller and lighter than the same FoV for APS-C or FF. The image stabilization is amazing too ... It's so much easier to hand-hold the the E-M1 with an effective 300mm FoV at f/5.6 than it is to hand-hold the Sony A7 or Leica M-P with a 180mm f/4 fitted.

    As I said before, there are a bazillion ways that work... :-)

    G

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    My take, as a user of those systems:
    Technically (meaning features and functions) the EM1 and Sony A7-series are ahead of the T.
    The T is still very interesting and I use it more often than the other 2 at the moment, because:
    -I believe the lenses are a very good compromise between speed and size, and they are very good.
    -its a good compromise in regards of sensor size; To my eye the IQ is smoother than the sharp and punchy m43 images.
    -For me the simple user interface can be a joy to use;

    The EM1 and Sony A7II offer some advantages like faster AF and a big advantage for Tele: Image stabilization.

    Between the Oly and the A7II I would say the difference is smaller lenses for the Oly, but with less capability for shallow DOF. Specially when you use the Zooms.
    For the A7II there are some very nice lenses, like the 35/2.8FE and the 55/1.8FE, the 24-70/4.0 (I like my sample, the opinion on this lens is mixed), the 70200/4.0 are axcellent lenses. You can do more subject isolation with those compared to f2.8 lenses on the Oly.

    In the end you can take good images with all of them. For some reason I feel the most attached to the T, the Sony I find very good but leaves me a little cold,
    The EM1 is great for the small size, weatherproof, etc.

    I can only recommend to handle all 3 and make the decision not only based on technical data but also see which fits you.

    For example as a user of different camera systems I dont like function buttons. I never remember which function on which button. So I prefer less flexibility but clearly labeled buttons.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I do not own the Leica T or the EM-5 mark II. I have tried them both.
    Sony A7xxx...I have not bothered with.

    I own and have used the fuji XT-1 extensively.

    Amongst the mirrorless ( non RF ), I found the Olympus to have the fastest AF.
    Wonderful lenses. Excellent size and weather sealings.

    The Leica T did not give me the feeling to pick up and run out of the door with it.
    I do not like touch screens. Bar the mFT and the Fuji X series, the native lens offerings is a work in progress.

    The XT-1 has a very full complement of superb lenses...with more to come.
    Just have a look at what is available right now...

    With the v3 firmware upgrade, the XT-1 is a very matured machine. Weather sealed too.. With weather sealed lenses, it is a system unto itself.

    The ergonomics suits me to a ' T '.
    I prefer to use native lenses on any camera. I do not purchase cameras to use other non- native mount lenses and spend untold hours testing, experimenting, or writing about the Odessy on forums.

    In a pinch, the Fuji m mount adapter allows me to use any m lens ( or Nikon..the 2 systems I own ) above and including 50mm without any issue.

    The relatively inexpensive kit zoom is the only one I used for more than a month
    In tropical places. I did not find any merit in Internet talk about mushy foliage, and various other issues referred to in such discussions.

    No mirrorless ( non RF ) system currently can compete with a dslr for lag, af and focus tracking. That aside, the XT-1 checks all the boxes for me. Oh, except the video.

    Do not forget a manufacturer's providing users with firmware upgrades on a regular basis. That keeps my machine working longer..rather than introducing new machines with minor upgrades and charging more for it.

    The machine, the native lenses, the on-going and frequent firmware updates and
    adapters to use other mount lenses...

    The Fuji XT-1 for me is the one.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by rayyan View Post


    No mirrorless ( non RF ) system currently can compete with a dslr for lag, af and focus tracking.
    Hi Ray

    Whilst I agree with you absolutely about tracking, I don't think you're right about eiither lag (the dslr has to hoick the mirror up first) or AF (single shot is faster on some mirrorless cameras).

    Good stuff on the Fuji (although I'm still worried about RAW support for the X-Trans in the future - especially if Fuji turn to organic sensors) it's patchy enough now, but what will it be like in 10 years if they change in 2? Mind you, the jpgs are pretty good - the green issue is an issue - but perhaps only in green places

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I use Iridient Developer and there is really nothing patchy about its support for the X-Trans sensor at all.

    I can definitely see the appeal of the Leica T. They are beautiful, I really would like one myself and the images I have seen are beautiful...

    but so are the Fuji ones and the X-T1 with 4 primes (14mm, 23mm, 35mm and 56mm) costs less than the Leica T with the 23mm and the EVF.

    On top of that the Fuji lenses are excellent as well and the native lens line-up more complete.

    Either way, I believe you make a good choice

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I tried the A7ii in a store today. It felt nice in the hands but I was less than pleased with the EVF. It was dim and jaggedy. I didn't have much time so didn't fiddle around too much but I guess I've to check if there are different settings for the EVF. As it stood, I was reminded why I love my M so much.

    Also played with the T but they didn't have an EVF. The new Leica store here will loan me one for a night next week ( for free ) so I get to try that out properly then.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I guess it depends on the kit you are trying to put together.
    A zoom is always going to be bigger and heavier than a prime, so if you are planning on zoom for your 2nd system, then you should definitely compare based on that.

    For me, the A7s + 35/2.8 Zeiss is lighter than my M240 body-only. Add a grip for ergonomics and the difference widens. With lens and we are now about 50% heavier.

    Given a recent wrist injury that I'm still in physical therapy for, I find the weight difference extremely noticeable. Even with grip, the M240 is simply less ergonomic than an the A7 series bodies unfortunately. I find I have to grip down tighter because the grip size is smaller.

    With mirrorless you have to pick your poison.
    Lens selection vs lots of zooms vs nice fast primes vs pricing vs AF speed vs IBIS vs High ISO vs video mode, etc. No one system does it all, they are all a compromise you have to choose your priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodleica View Post
    The A7s is an amazing camera. But I find the resolution lacking for my applications and am more enticed by the A7ii. However, one reason I really enjoy the M ( besides liking RF ) is the lightweight nature of the kit. Looking at the specs, the A7 series don't seem to have too many zoom lens to choose from and the zooms seem quite heavy and large. But I did notice that there is a new 24-240 and something like that paired with some M's might make a good travel kit if I can sacrifice WA. I want to use my M primes I've already invested in, so my interest in any new kit would be the zooms.

    I am concerned about the T perhaps being a dead end solution from leica. It doesn't seem to be selling that well and it's APS-C. On the other hand, Fuji is doing really well. The advantage of APS-C is the smaller and lighter lens that go with it as compared to what you have with the A7 series.
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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjg284 View Post
    I guess it depends on the kit you are trying to put together.
    A zoom is always going to be bigger and heavier than a prime, so if you are planning on zoom for your 2nd system, then you should definitely compare based on that.

    For me, the A7s + 35/2.8 Zeiss is lighter than my M240 body-only. Add a grip for ergonomics and the difference widens. With lens and we are now about 50% heavier.

    Given a recent wrist injury that I'm still in physical therapy for, I find the weight difference extremely noticeable. Even with grip, the M240 is simply less ergonomic than an the A7 series bodies unfortunately. I find I have to grip down tighter because the grip size is smaller.

    With mirrorless you have to pick your poison.
    Lens selection vs lots of zooms vs nice fast primes vs pricing vs AF speed vs IBIS vs High ISO vs video mode, etc. No one system does it all, they are all a compromise you have to choose your priorities.
    Yes, it does depend a lot on the lenses. If-for example you put a 35/1.4FE lens on the A7ii and a 35FLE on the M things look different.

    In Regards of compromise between size/weight and speed of the lenses I think dx-size sensor and the T lenses are a nice compromise.

    But one thing in regards of size, Neither of those cameras fits in a pocket, so we probably have to carry a bag anyways. So how much difference does the total weight/size make anyways?
    Its more important-IMO- that the size ration between body and lenses is balanced and handles good. The Telezoom on the T for example is close to the limit what I would want to pare with a T-body.

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?


    "It is an illusion that photos are made with the camera… they are made with the eye, heart and head." - Henri Cartier-Bresson

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    I use Iridient Developer and there is really nothing patchy about its support for the X-Trans sensor at all.

    I can definitely see the appeal of the Leica T. They are beautiful, I really would like one myself and the images I have seen are beautiful...

    but so are the Fuji ones and the X-T1 with 4 primes (14mm, 23mm, 35mm and 56mm) costs less than the Leica T with the 23mm and the EVF.

    On top of that the Fuji lenses are excellent as well and the native lens line-up more complete.

    Either way, I believe you make a good choice
    In the meanwhile I also picked up a Leica T.

    It is a joy to use, despite its many flaws...

    The biggest drawback IMO is the AF: too slow, often not locking focus and although you have multiple focus points changing them is so tedious that I personally simply tend to focus and recompose.

    The Fuji, not exactly considered to be the fastest camera on the plant, is a speed devil compared to the Leica T...

    That being said, I really really like the Leica T!!!

    That being said once more, I only bought the 23mm so far for the Leica T and I might hold off on buying more lenses... so perhaps I should have bought the X113 instead?

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    You have asked a very pertinent question, and one I have asked myself many times. (and also spend a lot of money on trying to figure out)

    I know you stated interchangeable lenses, but what I have found for me is that once I have a another system with interchangeable lenses, is that I am temped, and often succumb, to buying many of the extra lenses for that second system. In the end, I end up building up two (or three) independent systems with overlapping focal lengths.

    I have ended up with a M system, Canon EOS full frame, and Olympus EM1/5II set up. Plus specific fixed lens cameras. Fun, but a lot of overlap. (and $$$)

    What I found is the X-Vario is a great daytime camera for travel, vacation, party (with a flash), and the M is the go for high resolution, night, and super high quality. (In addition the X-Vario at 28mm and F3.5 with ISO 1600 at night, or indoors, is fabulous.)

    So in my humble opinion, the M system, complimented with the X-Vario is a great travel, vacation system, the Xvario is very light, (surprising light) and with 28-70, a very versatile compliment to the M System. Also, if you scale up a RAW file at 70mm to 90mm (Photoshop enlarge 1.3 times approx.) it is hardly distinguishable from a straight file but now at 90mm, not just 70mm. (seriously I mean it)

    So you end up with a great combo in my opinion, which also saves you the problem of 'gear creep'. (buying more because it's there)

    Lastly two comments on the Leica X system: I also have the X 35mm F1.7 but end up using the X-vario more, and 2: for the X-Vario, I set the exposure to 250 second, F stop to A, and ISO to Auto 1600 max, and everything seems to come together. Sharp (250/second) picture, Any F stop is great on that camera, and up to 1600 ISO in daylight is never an issue, ever.

    Seriously, I have already spent the money already, so trying to save you some $$$.

    All the best with your decision. Good luck, it is a great big candy store out there....

    Dave
    Same boat for me. X Vario is my ultimate family vacation camera. I use manual ISO, aperture priority, wide open and let shutter speed fall where it may. Even at 1/8th and ISO 3200 in available darkness I've obtain very sharp pictures with beautiful color. At ISO 6400 the black and white remains fantastic.

    I have the X 113 s well and love it, but the X Vario is the more versatile of the two.
    "A fella, A quick fella, might have a weapon under there. I'd have to pin his head to the panel." The Gyro Captain

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    Re: T or X, which would you choose as a 2nd body?

    I managed to try a T for a day since my local Leica store allows rentals. I decided that it's not for me. It's a beautiful little camera and kit, and if money was no object, I'd get one because I do see times where it would be great to have. But given my main requirement is AF, that's where some of it's weakness lies. I decided for the moment to go with the Sony A7ii. I mostly tend to shoot 35 and above anyways. WA is not my preferred POV but for that I still have my 240. So far, I'm happy with my decision.

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