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Anyone up for a CMOS MM?

V

Vivek

Guest
Rumors cliam that a CMOS based MM is imminent. I do not see myself overextending myself to get an unit, again (granted I am not a typical current Leica user). Even if Leica offers an upgrade path as with the M9 with a free custom engraving thrown in. :D

(OTOH, if Lou's prediction of a sub $3000/used MM comes through, I will get a back up.)

Is there any interest at all? I have a feeling that the earlier wait for 6 months after getting on the list fiasco will not happen this time around. :)
 
If I were in the market, I'd go for a "bargain" old MM instead. No interest in the new one. I'm inclined to think it's the same story as with M240 & M9.

Reflecting back on those times, now that I've been without an M for a bit, I'm thinking in many ways the M9 (mm as well) together with Mandler lenses was the pinnacle of digital M history. That sensor and those lenses produce pure magic. The new M and modern lenses are technically superior, but they lack in feel. I predict this will hold true with the new cmos mm as well.

//Juha
 

aDam007

New member
Juha, I think that's wishful thinking, and you're just trying to convince yourself not to buy a M246 :D

The problem with the M240 was that the color profiles weren't the same as the M9. Not better or worse, just not the same.

The M246 IF it is actually a new MM based on the M240 body, then it *should* be a significant ISO upgrade to the MM (at lest two stops cleaner) and would have all the modern -better- body enhancements. There wouldn't really be a drawback. No colors to complain about and the BW tonal variations should be more sensitive, not less sensitive. Not to mention a small but welcome boost in MP.

I'm honestly on the fence about it. If it does end up becoming a reality I might get one as an exercise in shooting black and white. Currently 99% of my work is color, it would be nice to force my hand at black and white photography.
But then again, I did just invest in the S-system, so the money might go to some S-lenses or perhaps upgrading to an S-007 if it feels right.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Vivek
I frankly don't remember discussing a sub $3000 used MM, but if you say so OK.

Since I am currently without an MM, I might consider a new one, but right now do not plan on being an early adopter.
 

segedi

Member
Been missing the MM, but one with the body and features of the M240 would certainly pique my interest. Would have to unload some gear though... And I don't want to get rid of the M240 to get an MM. Already made that mistake once.
 

erlingmm

Active member
I am. Have sold my MM, and waiting. Looking forward to better RF, more quiet shutter, no sensor corrosion, maybe a little better ISO
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
If Leica made a standard production M Edition 60 type body (in black paint or black chrome, please) with a B&W only sensor in it for the same price as an M typ 240, I'd be at B&H with my finger over the buy button in five seconds flat.

G
 
I'll be moving on from MM but am not sure about the anticipated CMOS replacement. I sold my M9s before the used price drop and began using an MM. But I'll be selling it or trading it in on a next-generation body, maybe Leica or maybe Sony. That's mainly because of what happened yesterday:

I was going to clean a friend's M9-P sensor with an Arctic Butterfly, but it showed the array of white spots that are signs of sensor corrosion. And this is sunny / droughty CA, without high humidity. I didn't want to wet-clean it before a Leica dealer could inspect it. This has scared me away from the M9/M9-P/MM sensor and the drag of possible sensor replacement.

My guess is that Sony will win over a CMOS MM for me. I've been looking at other people's tests and have done a pretty careful one of my own, using a MATE @ 28mm on my MM and on a borrowed A7r body. I don't print larger than 17" rolls; and at that size, with Leica lenses, there wasn't a significant difference in image quality between MM files and A7r BW conversions. So I believe a high-res Sony without shutter shake would fit my needs for both BW and color. (I've been using an A7 for occasional color and get along pretty well with it.)

My loyalty at a this point is to Leica lenses, but not necessarily Leica bodies.

Kirk
 
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Yes, that's one of the reviews I'd considered. If you read it in its entirety, it puts the current MM and current A7r in a dead heat.

I specified the conditions under which I saw no significant difference: Leica lenses (to be exact, WATE and MATE) and prints on 17" rolls, which means 15x22.5" largest.

IMO it ain't nothin' but pixel-peepin', beyond that.

Kirk

PS, I'd agree with Godfrey, except that I need to see what I've shot on an LCD. I shoot mostly WA landscapes, and with external finders it's pretty wild guesswork as to what will appear at the edge of the frame. (With MM, it's like turning pre-visualization backward, into post-visualization. :))

For this reason I'd appreciate a 240 EVF, but the Sony LCD would allow even better pre-viz.
 
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Godfrey

Well-known member
I have had the Sony A7 for over a year's worth of shooting and bought the M-P typ 240 when my M9 needed a new sensor.

The A7 produces very good results with most of my Leica R lenses, and only works consistently well with a few of my Leica M lenses (mostly 40mm and up). No, I don't own WATE or MATE ... they should do better as they are more similar to SLR lenses in optical design. But overall, right from the beginning, I found the A7 to be a clunky camera to work with. I played with an A7II at the shop last week; that hasn't changed.

I had a love/tolerate relationship with the M9. It produced better photos with a larger range of my M-mount lenses than the A7 (there were still a couple it wasn't happy with, the GXR did better with those due to its smaller format sensor) but I never liked the feel of its controls or the sluggish shutter recock and sound. The old four-way controller and thumb dial was awkward too. I nearly sold it a few times.

When it needed a sensor, I took the M-P upgrade option thinking it was economically the best thing to do, even though I wasn't really fond of the notion of having to spend another $4000 at that moment. But I'm very glad I did: the M-P is slick, not sluggish, sounds great, is much more comfortable in my hands, and produces the results I want. There's something about its files that I cannot get out of the A7 files, despite that the A7 has a stop or two more sensitivity.

(I did solve my wide lens problem ... Sold my Color Skopar 21/4 and Ultron 28/2 for an Elmar-M 24/3.8 ASPH. Satori! Also have been adapting my Nikkor 18mm and Elmarit-R 19mm to the M-P. They're too wide for me most of the time, and both do quite well on the M-P sensor. )

I've completely stopped using the A7 now. It's going up for sale.

For a B&W only camera, I would be in love with an M-P MM, but I think I'd love an "M Edition 60" design MM even more. An M digital camera stripped to the barest essentials and focused on B&W photography ... I don't need an LCD for review, I turn that off anyway, I just need to set exposure and make photographs. I wouldn't care if it didn't even make JPEGs. Just a way to set control parameters (date, time, format cards, etc) is enough.

Do it, Leica! ;-)

G
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
I doubt I'd overextend myself for a MM CMOS replacement either. I've been getting on well with the current MM since I got it, and it serves its purpose brilliantly. Nothing to do with CCD verses CMOS, but more about getting full value out of the King's ransom already paid … the difference would mostly be big money spent on a MM CMOS to accomplish little that I need or want for my B&W rangefinder work.

I have a A7R and excellent M adapter, but it isn't a rangefinder.

- Marc
 

aDam007

New member
If Leica made a standard production M Edition 60 type body (in black paint or black chrome, please) with a B&W only sensor in it for the same price as an M typ 240, I'd be at B&H with my finger over the buy button in five seconds flat.

G
I asked Leica for an M60 (brass) w/black paint and no SE lens, and was told that it wasn't going to happen :(

They also denied my request for real black leather M240P + no engraving.. So I don't know what's up with them. Especially because I passed by the store yesterday and they have a pink leather M240P Chrom and a red leather M240P black for sale at the same as buying a standard M240P.
 
aDam007, the colors were just one part of the equation. Also there were other things, which I can't really put my fingers on.. perhaps the way focus areas or tones transition or something like that. But anyway, looking at my M9 photos vs M240 - I should have kept the M9.

Other things I would say was the weight. Though M240 didn't feel heavy as such, but it was heavier. Then the added mp - The M9 was perfectly fine for me, the extras just maybe it harder to avoid camera shake. No need for 24mp and definitely not for the almost 100g added bulk.

Where M240 had benefits was the rear wheel lcd, battery & shutter sound.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
aDam007, the colors were just one part of the equation. Also there were other things, which I can't really put my fingers on.. perhaps the way focus areas or tones transition or something like that. But anyway, looking at my M9 photos vs M240 - I should have kept the M9.

Other things I would say was the weight. Though M240 didn't feel heavy as such, but it was heavier. Then the added mp - The M9 was perfectly fine for me, the extras just maybe it harder to avoid camera shake. No need for 24mp and definitely not for the almost 100g added bulk.

Where M240 had benefits was the rear wheel lcd, battery & shutter sound.
It's funny how perceptions differ.

When I compare my M9 raw files to the M-P raw files, I MUCH prefer the M-P files. And the M-P feels slimmer and lighter in my hands, even though it's nominally 2oz heavier than the M9 and has a 1mm deeper baseplate from front to rear.

G
 

Paratom

Well-known member
For people like me who stepped up to the M 240 it would be nice to have a MM with same battery and handling.
I do however ask myself - how much I would gain compared to images from the M 240 converted to b&w.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
For people like me who stepped up to the M 240 it would be nice to have a MM with same battery and handling.
I do however ask myself - how much I would gain compared to images from the M 240 converted to b&w.
I agree ... the M-P set to B&W with orange filter produces lovely B&W right out of the camera, and the raw files render to B&W beautifully. That's why I'd want the "special" M edition 60 design body.

G
 
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