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Why the Leica M Edition 60 is important ...

Agreed. I was actually thinking of one kind of dream camera based on the M60...

Remove flash hotshoe, add integrated Leica T evf. Allow image playback with histogram on evf. Rest like the M60.

Now, that would give us what M60 is giving, but with adapter would do the same for R-series.

//Juha
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Personally, I don't think a camera like this is to functionally "validate" the skill of the photographer. The end result is the only thing that does that. What you are using, or how you use it, is of little concern to 99% of humanity.

I think it CAN BE part of the personal creative journey for some photographers interested in their relationship with the subject matter, more than their relationship with the tool in hand. It just takes the concept of a rangefinder one step further.

However, I question the elimination of any sort of exposure confirmation. Essentially, digital capture has more similarities to slide film, than much more forgiving neg film. Given that a rangefinder is noted for its spontaneous and intuitive handling, and spawned certain genres of photography (decisive moment, street, journalistic, etc.), not many creators of that type work chose slide film.

Frankly, for most "decisive", or "of the moment work", having a LCD review is already too late. Yet I'd like to have the ability to enter into a lighting situation and get an exposure reading in the form of a Histogram reading off the sensor. I do not think a huge LCD is needed for that. Something, somewhere activated by a half press of the shutter maybe.

Otherwise I like that most all the other nonsense is eliminated on this camera … except the price … which means I'll never own one.

- Marc
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
...
However, I question the elimination of any sort of exposure confirmation. Essentially, digital capture has more similarities to slide film, than much more forgiving neg film. Given that a rangefinder is noted for its spontaneous and intuitive handling, and spawned certain genres of photography (decisive moment, street, journalistic, etc.), not many creators of that type work chose slide film.
My experience is that raw capture is really quite in line with getting good exposures on negative films with respect to latitude, given modern sensors' dynamic range. Exposure technique, however, is still more similar to slide film: Negative films have most all of their exposure latitude on the overexposure side, where slide films and digital sensor have most latitude on the underexposure side. So instead of "meter for the shadows and process for the highlights", the old rule of thumb for negative films, you use "meter for the highlights, process for the shadows" for digital.

(Olympus has the brilliance in various cameras including the E-M1 of providing Spot-High metering pattern. This is a small spot area calibrated to give proper exposure when targeting a Zone VIII to Zone IX area. I use it often! It is very close to the mark, most of the time, when working with scenes that have a wide dynamic range.)

I am sufficiently skilled enough at getting proper exposure with film cameras using either slide or negative films that I see little need to require a histogram. And if a miss a few, well, who cares really? A digital exposure doesn't even cost me the price of a piece of film and processing ... ;-)

BTW, there is 'exposure confirmation'... Just like was pioneered in the Nikon FM and later available in the M6TTL (and M7, and other digital Ms, and other cameras ...), the metering readout has (+, 0, -) lights/arrows/etc which tell you where your exposure setting is relative to the meter's view of the subject in five distinct steps. Placing the metering area on the appropriate thing and glancing at the readout is much less intrusive and faster than analyzing a histogram. It's worked for decades of photographers in all kinds of real situations in studio and field...

Frankly, for most "decisive", or "of the moment work", having a LCD review is already too late. Yet I'd like to have the ability to enter into a lighting situation and get an exposure reading in the form of a Histogram reading off the sensor. I do not think a huge LCD is needed for that. Something, somewhere activated by a half press of the shutter maybe. ...
The only way to have what you're looking for there is to have some permutation of a live view heads-up display, which defeats the whole purpose of engineering down to the basics and eliminating potential distractions IMO. I never needed it when I was shooting film only. I find I only rarely need it today when I'm shooting digital. And when I do, I have other cameras (the E-M1 for instance) that do it just right.

I may (most likely will) never own an M Edition 60. But I like the design concept a lot, and often strive to shoot in the manner that this design concept implies. It works particularly well for me in certain types of endeavors where I'm looking to minimize all possible burdens on my attention so that I can concentrate on the subject at hand, which tend to be situations where I'm shooting black and white, working with people and expressions and situations. I have no time then to analyze a heads-up display, be too fussy about focus, etc. I need to be in the moment, looking, watching, and ready... Knowing that the equipment is already configured and ready at any moment.

If the new Monochrom model were offered in a production-priced version of the ME60 body, I would have already pressed the buy button.

G
 
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bradhusick

Active member
I keep going back and forth about actually owning an M 60. It's darn near impossible to shoot fast glass wide open and hit the focus each time, so I'd be shooting it with narrower apertures. Wide angle helps here too with deep DOF.

Most of the photos I like to take are 50mm candid portraits wide open at f/1.4 or f/2 (depending on the lens) so the M60 isn't the ideal tool for this.

Like many of you said, if it was actually cheaper than an M240 I'd consider it.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I keep going back and forth about actually owning an M 60. It's darn near impossible to shoot fast glass wide open and hit the focus each time, so I'd be shooting it with narrower apertures. Wide angle helps here too with deep DOF.

Most of the photos I like to take are 50mm candid portraits wide open at f/1.4 or f/2 (depending on the lens) so the M60 isn't the ideal tool for this.

Like many of you said, if it was actually cheaper than an M240 I'd consider it.
I also ... I could write a check to pay for an ME60 right now, but I'm reluctant to spend so much money on one camera.

I don't know that it's so difficult to shoot "fast glass" wide open and hit the focus right every time, really, but then I'm not always so critical about getting perfect focus in every shot. I do well enough when I know my camera and lens well enough that I can get what I want most of the time, anyway, without any extraordinary effort.

With a 50mm lens on the M-P, I fit a 1.25x eyepiece magnifier if I'm going to shoot wide open a lot ... It makes the RF patch a good bit easier to see for precise focusing, aids focusing speed, and the 50mm framelines are right at my visible limit (with glasses) of the viewing area. (With the rangefinder, I can even take my glasses off and focus just as accurately; see more outside the frame lines.) You might try that.

Stopped down even just 1-2 stops with an f/1.4 lens, I find it very easy to hit the focus right on the money nearly every time without any extra measures. It's how I shoot most of the time. :)

G
 

fotografz

Well-known member
My experience is that raw capture is really quite in line with getting good exposures on negative films with respect to latitude, given modern sensors' dynamic range. Exposure technique, however, is still more similar to slide film: Negative films have most all of their exposure latitude on the overexposure side, where slide films and digital sensor have most latitude on the underexposure side. So instead of "meter for the shadows and process for the highlights", the old rule of thumb for negative films, you use "meter for the highlights, process for the shadows" for digital.

(Olympus has the brilliance in various cameras including the E-M1 of providing Spot-High metering pattern. This is a small spot area calibrated to give proper exposure when targeting a Zone VIII to Zone IX area. I use it often! It is very close to the mark, most of the time, when working with scenes that have a wide dynamic range.)

I am sufficiently skilled enough at getting proper exposure with film cameras using either slide or negative films that I see little need to require a histogram. And if a miss a few, well, who cares really? A digital exposure doesn't even cost me the price of a piece of film and processing ... ;-)

BTW, there is 'exposure confirmation'... Just like was pioneered in the Nikon FM and later available in the M6TTL (and M7, and other digital Ms, and other cameras ...), the metering readout has (+, 0, -) lights/arrows/etc which tell you where your exposure setting is relative to the meter's view of the subject in five distinct steps. Placing the metering area on the appropriate thing and glancing at the readout is much less intrusive and faster than analyzing a histogram. It's worked for decades of photographers in all kinds of real situations in studio and field...



The only way to have what you're looking for there is to have some permutation of a live view heads-up display, which defeats the whole purpose of engineering down to the basics and eliminating potential distractions IMO. I never needed it when I was shooting film only. I find I only rarely need it today when I'm shooting digital. And when I do, I have other cameras (the E-M1 for instance) that do it just right.

I may (most likely will) never own an M Edition 60. But I like the design concept a lot, and often strive to shoot in the manner that this design concept implies. It works particularly well for me in certain types of endeavors where I'm looking to minimize all possible burdens on my attention so that I can concentrate on the subject at hand, which tend to be situations where I'm shooting black and white, working with people and expressions and situations. I have no time then to analyze a heads-up display, be too fussy about focus, etc. I need to be in the moment, looking, watching, and ready... Knowing that the equipment is already configured and ready at any moment.

If the new Monochrom model were offered in a production-priced version of the ME60 body, I would have already pressed the buy button.

G
Yes, yes, I know all the previous metering options and worked with each of them … not sure I agree that +/0/- metering is less distracting than some other innovative method of analytic digital metering … perhaps not invented yet. The best one I ever worked with was in the DMR, which placed a thin histogram line over the LCD display if you wished. Not possible here, as there is no LCD.

Maybe it is just something like the Oly metering pattern you mentioned.

"And if (I) a miss a few, well, who cares really?" … I do. : -)

- Marc
 

herrbarnack

New member
Does anyone know how you set ISO, white balance, metering mode, manual lens detection, DNG compression, flash sync mode, frameline color, copyright information, date/time and language on an M60 that has no controls and no screen?

How about using the artificial horizon function and histogram? How about formatting memory cards?

How do you accomplish these tasks on an M60?

Do you have to send it in to Leica NJ with a note detailing how you want to have the camera configured??

What do you do when you move from sunshine outside to indoors with tungsten lighting? Send the camera back to NJ to have the white balance changed?? :wtf:
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Does anyone know how you set ISO, white balance, metering mode, manual lens detection, DNG compression, flash sync mode, frameline color, copyright information, date/time and language on an M60 that has no controls and no screen?

How about using the artificial horizon function and histogram? How about formatting memory cards?

How do you accomplish these tasks on an M60?

Do you have to send it in to Leica NJ with a note detailing how you want to have the camera configured??

What do you do when you move from sunshine outside to indoors with tungsten lighting? Send the camera back to NJ to have the white balance changed?? :wtf:
- Set ISO with the dial on the back.
- Auto White Balance is the only WB setting. *
- It has only the traditional center-area metering pattern.
- Lens detection is always on automatic.
- It only produces uncompressed DNG files.
- There are no flash sync options.
- The framelines are always white.
- There are no copyright information or language settings.
- You set date/time using the in-viewfinder readout.
- You format storage cards outside the camera.

* Since the camera only creates DNG files, a white balance setting is irrelevant. You set white balance as part of raw conversion and rendering.

The M Edition 60 instruction manual is available for downloading from the Leica website if you have any further questions.

G
 

silver92b

New member
I think this Leica M edition 60 is a brilliant camera. It embodies the simplicity of the Leica film cameras with the advantages of a digital camera. One could quibble about one or two things that they might have included, but in reality, The simplicity of it is it's genius. It's really appealing to see a camera of the quality and capability of the Leica M with the legendary Leica lenses without the bother and complexity of the modern DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. Just remove the lens cap, set the ISO, focus and shoot. Very appealing. Too bad the cost is prohibitive for me...
 

250swb

Member
I think this Leica M edition 60 is a brilliant camera. It embodies the simplicity of the Leica film cameras with the advantages of a digital camera. One could quibble about one or two things that they might have included, but in reality, The simplicity of it is it's genius. It's really appealing to see a camera of the quality and capability of the Leica M with the legendary Leica lenses without the bother and complexity of the modern DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras. Just remove the lens cap, set the ISO, focus and shoot. Very appealing. Too bad the cost is prohibitive for me...
It is always very easy to advocate something when you don't need to drill down into the reasons for buying it with your own money. I call it hot air.

Steve
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
It is always very easy to advocate something when you don't need to drill down into the reasons for buying it with your own money. I call it hot air.
I could pay for it (as different from "afford it"), and have very nearly gone for it a couple of times. I don't think it's 'hot air' to admire the concept, but as a special edition with a premium tax and the mandatory purchase of a special edition lens on top of that, I can fully understand someone not having the dosh, or not wanting to spend it on this one thing.

I just hope they come out with a regular production model, with a choice of M240 or MM246 sensor setup. One of those gets announced and I'm in danger of being out another 7-8Large again.

Leica might indeed bankrupt me if I'm not careful. :-0

G
 
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