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Thread: M9 for paid photoshoot?

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    M9 for paid photoshoot?

    So I was offered a gig to shoot a graduation ceremony that takes place at a lounge, indoors and outdoors in their patio. Both are very very dark.

    I have an M9 and I also have an SF20 flash laying around somewhere. Haven't used it in forever, as I don't usually like flash photos.

    Any suggestions, tips or ideas?

    I'm thinking of turning down the job, but I could use the $$ and the exposure it would get me. But I don't see how I could get acceptable results in that kind of darkness, and with M9's low light performance....lol

    Any ideas and comments are much appreciated,


    thanks

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    I think the little flash without a posibility to do indirect flash produces ugly light. Wouldnt be an option for me for that purpose.
    I would rather check out the place and see if you can get along with a fast lens without flash. If you expose correct you could use ISO1600 or even go a little higher.

    In anyways I believe you should feel confident to get good results if you take such a job.
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    I did an event last summer that sounds similar to yours. An evening reception, mostly outdoors, in low light. I used two set-ups, one a fuji x-t1 with a 56/f1.2, the other an M9 with a 50/1.4. The fuji I shot at iso 3200-6400, the M9 at iso 1600-2500. I ended up using the M9 only in "pockets" of light created by decorative lighting. Obviously, shooting in light that meters 1/45th at f/1.4 at iso 6400 is not playing to the M9's strength.

    You could shoot the flash with a modifier or off-camera, dialing in a stop or more of flash exposure compensation. You could limit your shooting to advantageous light, if some exists, and do the best you can with the M9 sans flash, shooting as early as possible to salvage daylight (assuming it's an evening affair).
    --Mike

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    The possibility of screwing up a special occasion for a paying customer should be at the forefront of your decision process, not how to sidestep the fact that you don't have the right equipment to do the job.

    Steve
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/steve_barnett/
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Do you have any tilting flash that'll trigger in the M9 hot shoe? That'll do it, just bounce the flash either on the opposite wall (assuming its white) or on the ceiling.

    If it's so impromptu then you'll probably get better results the anyone else they're planning on hiring I'm sure.
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    If it's so impromptu then you'll probably get better results the anyone else they're planning on hiring I'm sure.
    And how would you feel about a mechanic being on the internet before fixing your engine and asking if he needs a set of spanners or will he get by with a hammer?

    It's easy to spend other peoples money badly on the internet, you just say 'just do this, just do that', but if you can't imagine a professional (in attitude and equipment) armed with a Nikon and a large tilt and twist flash gun is going to do better then I guess you'll be happy with the hammer.

    Steve

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Why not? I once shot a wedding with an M8 & Nikon flash. All it takes is confidence in yourself and your equipment.

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Okay, I have some time while I wait for a delivery today … so, I'll try and help you. Then if you think it IS of some help you can use the advice.

    1) Unless you turn them down and they hire an experienced event or wedding shooter, you may be better than the alternative. I say this because you at least show you care by asking questions.

    2) Yes you can use use the M9, and no, flash doesn't have to be ugly. Most people feel that way because they do not know how to use flash and are intimidated by it, therefore fixate on crappy flash work as justification for their opinion.

    3) You do NOT have to use flash for every shot with the M9 … just use it for the images that warrant it. Every speed-light has an on/off button.

    4) Event work is difficult to shoot using just ambient because you often do not have control over the light direction relative to the subject, and the quality and quantity of light can vary widely.


    SOME THOUGHTS TO TRY:

    FLASH EQUPMENT: When you use flash, you rarely have to exceed ISO 640 to 800 on any camera including M cameras. This increases the DR and IQ even in lower light. Even IF you need to use 1250, when you use flash it'll be better IQ than without.

    I do not remember if the SF20 is TTL on the M9. I know the SF24D is. If the SF20 is not TTL on the M9 then it is hard to modify it with a diffuser because the diffuser interferes with the auto eye. This is important because you'll need to modify the SF flash with this diffuser made for The SF TTL speed-lights: (click on S-Fill once on this page):

    www.leicagoodies.com

    Otherwise get or rent a flash that offers bounce/swivel capability even if it is just auto-eye, and get a bounce/diffusion modifier for it. One like this:

    Vello Light Bouncer Kit for Portable Flashes FD-200 B&H Photo



    USE: The over-arching objective of flash work should be to supplement the ambient and provide different degrees of FILL.

    Crappy looking, over-flashed work is usually a result of using the camera's highest flash sync shutter speed in low light conditions … providing undersexposed ambient, a wall of darkness behind the subject, and the subject over-lit looking.

    Experienced event shooters use a technique called "Dragging the Shutter" … where you use say ISO 640, a wider aperture like f/2 (or f/4 if needed for DOF), and a slower shutter speed … with an M you can even shoot at 1/20 with a 50mm.

    When you drag the shutter and use a bit faster aperture, it records more of the background ambient light. Less underexposed or wall of black backgrounds. Now you have some ambient to supplement with fill.

    However, slower shutter speeds mean nothing to the flash exposure. This is because flash exposure is a result of duration (how long the flash says on) … and the flash duration is always faster than the camera's shutter sync speed (flash duration can be 1/1000 to 1/2500 depending on how much light is needed to light the foreground subject). This fast flash duration almost always freezes the subject in dark ambient conditions … even with slower camera shutter speeds.

    I know this all sounds intimidating, but it is easy to try with your M9 and any flash … doing it at home with the light low will bolster your confidence in just a few minutes. With immediate feed-back, you can make minor adjustments, and you'll be good to go. Just practice a lot in different low light situations.

    It isn't rocket science even if it sounds like it is.

    - Marc

    P.S., here is a little gallery of event stuff shot with a M … some using on-camera SF flash with an S-FILL diffuser. Which is which is your guess.

    Leica M Wedding - fotografz
    Last edited by fotografz; 20th May 2015 at 13:37.
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Thanks, Marc. Your advice is on the money, and your gallery shows some wonderful event photos!

    Unlike some members here that feel the need to only criticize or put down other members, you actually had something valuable and helpful to say.

    So thanks to all you guys that took the time to offer helpful advice. It's more useful and appreciated than that superior know-it-all attitude some members have.

    And for what it's worth, if anyone is curious: what I did is I told the client (who is also a friend) that I would take the job, gave them a rate, but told them that they only have to pay me if they are satisfied with the results. So if they want to have another photographer there, that would be fine by me. But either way, I will only take payment if the results are satisfactory.
    Since I don't use this for my main income, I could deal with either outcome.

    Thanks again, guys

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    And how would you feel about a mechanic being on the internet before fixing your engine and asking if he needs a set of spanners or will he get by with a hammer?

    It's easy to spend other peoples money badly on the internet, you just say 'just do this, just do that', but if you can't imagine a professional (in attitude and equipment) armed with a Nikon and a large tilt and twist flash gun is going to do better then I guess you'll be happy with the hammer.

    Steve
    I'm pretty sure you're missing my point. So let me clarify.

    IF they're not looking to hire a professional who has a portfolio to back himself up. Then they're probably looking around for amateurs or students who haven't done this before. I'm confident that the OP can probably get the same/better results as a student who has a dslr or a parent with an iPhone. A tillable flash isn't hard to find, and also isn't actually that necessary. It really depends on the mood/look you're going for.

    So wait I have a question, since I don't want to assume to understand you.. I shoot with an M-system, does this mean the Nikon guy would get better images then me? Because as I've mentioned, they're probably not willing to pay a professional. So is it the gear you have a problem with, or??

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I'm pretty sure you're missing my point. So let me clarify.

    IF they're not looking to hire a professional who has a portfolio to back himself up. Then they're probably looking around for amateurs or students who haven't done this before. I'm confident that the OP can probably get the same/better results as a student who has a dslr or a parent with an iPhone. A tillable flash isn't hard to find, and also isn't actually that necessary. It really depends on the mood/look you're going for.

    So wait I have a question, since I don't want to assume to understand you.. I shoot with an M-system, does this mean the Nikon guy would get better images then me? Because as I've mentioned, they're probably not willing to pay a professional. So is it the gear you have a problem with, or??
    This subject has been raging for many years now. Frankly, it is market driven. In general, today's clients have placed less emphasis (or value) on wedding and event photography than past generations. Even clients with enough money to hire a seasoned wedding shooter may well ask a talented friend or relative to shoot their wedding.

    So, mechanic and doctor analogies aren't really relevant … most clients don't know what is required to shoot a wedding, and think "how hard can it be with today's "do it all" cameras. They do NOT think that way if they're sick, or their complex, computerized car isn't working.

    Plus, the number one objective of most wedding shots these days is posting them on social media. I get home from a wedding and there are shots of my set-ups already posted on FaceBook … I kid you not.

    Heck, I have clients that already paid the production costs for albums I designed, and never called back. I have a completed wedding on DVD sitting on my desk waiting to be picked up … from last spring!

    What's interesting is that all this has archivist and historians a bit worried. The concern is that there will not be any record of everyday life and life's milestones to reference in future.

    The driving force seems to be "Here today, gone today."

    RE: Gear …

    To be honest, talent being the same with gear the only differentator …someone with a M9, manual focus M primes and SF24 flash … verses a Nikon FF, a couple of f/2.8 zooms and a couple SB-900s … I'd place my money on the Nikon. The Nikon not only makes it faster, easier and surer … the lighting is far more capable and versatile.

    Personally, I prefer the M/M lenses look and feel, and have used one when and where I can … however, I can guarantee the client doesn't give a tinker's damn 95% of the time. We use what we like for our own reasons and fulfillment. If it were all driven by client sensibilities, we wouldn't need any of this great gear.

    - Marc

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    I and I'm sure others can really relate to what you posted Marc. Well said!

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This subject has been raging for many years now. Frankly, it is market driven. In general, today's clients have placed less emphasis (or value) on wedding and event photography than past generations. Even clients with enough money to hire a seasoned wedding shooter may well ask a talented friend or relative to shoot their wedding.

    So, mechanic and doctor analogies aren't really relevant … most clients don't know what is required to shoot a wedding, and think "how hard can it be with today's "do it all" cameras. They do NOT think that way if they're sick, or their complex, computerized car isn't working.

    Plus, the number one objective of most wedding shots these days is posting them on social media. I get home from a wedding and there are shots of my set-ups already posted on FaceBook … I kid you not.

    Heck, I have clients that already paid the production costs for albums I designed, and never called back. I have a completed wedding on DVD sitting on my desk waiting to be picked up … from last spring!

    What's interesting is that all this has archivist and historians a bit worried. The concern is that there will not be any record of everyday life and life's milestones to reference in future.

    The driving force seems to be "Here today, gone today."

    RE: Gear …

    To be honest, talent being the same with gear the only differentator …someone with a M9, manual focus M primes and SF24 flash … verses a Nikon FF, a couple of f/2.8 zooms and a couple SB-900s … I'd place my money on the Nikon. The Nikon not only makes it faster, easier and surer … the lighting is far more capable and versatile.

    Personally, I prefer the M/M lenses look and feel, and have used one when and where I can … however, I can guarantee the client doesn't give a tinker's damn 95% of the time. We use what we like for our own reasons and fulfillment. If it were all driven by client sensibilities, we wouldn't need any of this great gear.

    - Marc

    This is why I told him to give it a shot

    I've used Canon, Nikon, Sony, Sony mirrorless, Hassy, Leica... At the end of the day, it's all the same. The technique is the same, and I shoot manual anyway, so it's not much more work if you're using system A over system B. And you're right, it's what gives us joy in the end, as long as we can deliver.

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    This is why I told him to give it a shot

    I've used Canon, Nikon, Sony, Sony mirrorless, Hassy, Leica... At the end of the day, it's all the same. The technique is the same, and I shoot manual anyway, so it's not much more work if you're using system A over system B. And you're right, it's what gives us joy in the end, as long as we can deliver.


    Actually, those last 6 words are the crux of the matter.

    Regardless of what tools you use, how well do you work under pressure?

    No matter what clients say before a wedding when selecting or hiring a photographer, the reality of it can be a completely different matter.

    They often down play their expectations either to persuade a newbie friend to do it, or to get a better price from an established shooter … but come the wedding day it can suddenly become much more demanding.

    Weddings are mildly controlled chaos. Client expectations are formed by traditions, and all to often the parents (read Mothers) have their own set of expected shots. The couple swears they just want a few formals shot, which can become a laundry list of every mathematical combination of relatives possible.

    Keep in mind, most of the cell phone generation think it's relatively no brainer, so why can't you shoot 20 set-ups in 20 minutes?

    The best advice I can give the OP is to ask for a detailed itinerary from the Bride and a shot list … this timing and expected images will reveal what kind of pressure you'll be working under and allow you to control those expectations with a dose of reality.

    I once got an itinerary that had zero time plugged-in to travel from the church to the reception which was 1/2 hour away. I told hem I was looking forward to my first teleportation experience.

    Ya gotta have a sense of humor to shoot weddings

    Good Luck!

    - Marc

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Because as I've mentioned, they're probably not willing to pay a professional. So is it the gear you have a problem with, or??
    The OP is classing themselves as a professional because they are going to ask for money, that should be good enough for the client to think they have hired a professional....

    ...and have you seen an SF20 flash, you really think that will work?

    This is nothing to do with equipment envy or being a fanboy for Nikon and wanting to have a pop at Leica users as I'm sure you gleefully anticipate. I don't have a Nikon or a Canon DSLR of any sort, only my Leica's. But it is a question of attitude and common sense, not being blinded by 'best camera in the world' adoration. The OP clearly has no idea what to do (like invest in equipment) or any understanding of responsibility to the client, and they aren't interested in knowing because they only want affirmative confirmation that somehow or other makes their M9 and SF20 work within the brief. You can be as gung-ho as much as you like, talk is cheap, but graduation only happens once just as the photographer only has one chance, and owning a posh Leica is not some sort of passport to success.

    Steve
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/steve_barnett/
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Is it wedding or graduation?

    Well, either can happen multiple times, Steve.
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Is it wedding or graduation?

    Well, either can happen multiple times, Steve.
    The original subject was a graduation in some challenging lighting conditions. Weddings and events (like Graduations, Bar Mitzvahs, etc.), are similar in terms of expectations if not a bit less pressure. The discussion widened a bit based on the issue of lighting.

    The lighting challenges are identical when working in a dark venue. Personally, I find graduations are harder than weddings because there isn't as much to photograph … so it ends up with more impromptue group portraits in less than ideal light.

    - Marc

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    [/SIZE][/B]

    Actually, those last 6 words are the crux of the matter.

    Regardless of what tools you use, how well do you work under pressure?

    No matter what clients say before a wedding when selecting or hiring a photographer, the reality of it can be a completely different matter.

    They often down play their expectations either to persuade a newbie friend to do it, or to get a better price from an established shooter … but come the wedding day it can suddenly become much more demanding.

    Weddings are mildly controlled chaos. Client expectations are formed by traditions, and all to often the parents (read Mothers) have their own set of expected shots. The couple swears they just want a few formals shot, which can become a laundry list of every mathematical combination of relatives possible.

    Keep in mind, most of the cell phone generation think it's relatively no brainer, so why can't you shoot 20 set-ups in 20 minutes?

    The best advice I can give the OP is to ask for a detailed itinerary from the Bride and a shot list … this timing and expected images will reveal what kind of pressure you'll be working under and allow you to control those expectations with a dose of reality.

    I once got an itinerary that had zero time plugged-in to travel from the church to the reception which was 1/2 hour away. I told hem I was looking forward to my first teleportation experience.

    Ya gotta have a sense of humor to shoot weddings

    Good Luck!

    - Marc
    Haha.. Yep, that's why you need a good contract. Bride/Groom/Parents always have some outlandish request after all's said and done.

    I shoot 15+ hour weddings sometimes.. By the end of it, everyones a zombie. Really not a point in such a lengthy celebration, but some people ask.

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    The OP is classing themselves as a professional because they are going to ask for money, that should be good enough for the client to think they have hired a professional....

    ...and have you seen an SF20 flash, you really think that will work?

    This is nothing to do with equipment envy or being a fanboy for Nikon and wanting to have a pop at Leica users as I'm sure you gleefully anticipate. I don't have a Nikon or a Canon DSLR of any sort, only my Leica's. But it is a question of attitude and common sense, not being blinded by 'best camera in the world' adoration. The OP clearly has no idea what to do (like invest in equipment) or any understanding of responsibility to the client, and they aren't interested in knowing because they only want affirmative confirmation that somehow or other makes their M9 and SF20 work within the brief. You can be as gung-ho as much as you like, talk is cheap, but graduation only happens once just as the photographer only has one chance, and owning a posh Leica is not some sort of passport to success.

    Steve
    I'm pretty sure that if you would have paid attention to the OP, he has told the "client/friend" of his, that he's ill equipped, but will do his best. They STILL want to use him, hence, don't want to pay a professional.

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The original subject was a graduation in some challenging lighting conditions .... Personally, I find graduations are harder than weddings because there isn't as much to photograph … so it ends up with more impromptue group portraits in less than ideal light.

    - Marc
    I haven't done weddings but I have done graduations. The latter are hard, and seem to be all over the place as to expectations, little to nothing formalized, hard to discern the relative importance of the subjects (certainly not by dress), no itinerary, just revolving groups, lots of standing/sitting chat-time. My general approach is shoot the grad and friends and closest family repeatedly and work out from there.
    --Mike

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    HI There
    Two things

    Thing One
    I've done a number of weddings with the M9 - often in gloomy UK conditions - it takes care but it's possible - I almost never use flash (for better or worse).
    If I were you I'd go to the venue with a friend and take lots of pictures so that you can work out a successful way of getting what you want.

    Thing Two
    Marc knows - take his advice about using Flash and dragging the shutter. You couldn't possibly have better advice.

    Good Luck

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    So I just wanted to let you guys know that I did take the job. Used the M9/35 'cron combination for the whole thing, and was able to stay away from using flash. There was a lot more light than I was originally told, and I used ISO as high as 1600, but a little post-processing in Lightroom gave me great results. The client loved the photos!

    Thanks for all your input, it's good to see that some people want to and know how to constructively help!
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Good to hear that. Any chance for some images for us?

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by julianf73 View Post
    Thanks for all your input, it's good to see that some people want to and know how to constructively help!
    You mean your *** was saved by pure luck don't you, especially after briefing there was no light and you'd need a flash?


    Steve
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Hope you got enough cash to buy an used SF-24D.
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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by julianf73 View Post
    So I just wanted to let you guys know that I did take the job. Used the M9/35 'cron combination for the whole thing, and was able to stay away from using flash. There was a lot more light than I was originally told, and I used ISO as high as 1600, but a little post-processing in Lightroom gave me great results. The client loved the photos!

    Thanks for all your input, it's good to see that some people want to and know how to constructively help!
    Hooray
    Congratulations

    Just this guy you know

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    Re: M9 for paid photoshoot?

    Quote Originally Posted by 250swb View Post
    You mean your *** was saved by pure luck don't you, especially after briefing there was no light and you'd need a flash?


    Steve
    Cranky much, Steve? Lighten up, dude, life's too short for all that bitterness.

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