An open letter to Leica (2015)...please share your own thoughts

[ashwinrao1]

I desperately want Leica to release great products, and.......I think that the time is here. The Leica M246 Monochrom is fantastic. It sits on par with or supersedes the original in most key ways, and I can't wait to get my own in hopefully a short time (first on the list at my local Leica store).

As Jono has already shown, and I have experienced, the now available Leica 28 mm f/1.4 Summilux Aspherical may well be the best 28 available, as long as you are okay with the lens' size. Having shot a production model recently, I can say that it's a joy to use, and it has edge-to-edge sharpness, a lovely rendering reminiscent of the 35 FLE, at a cost that's below what most had predicted (albeit still quite a hefty price of entry). One could imagine a 50 mm f/1.4 Summilux APO Asph or an updated 75 mm f/1.4 Summilux Asph as "next up" in the Peter Karbe lens party.

Then, there's the lovely D-Lux, Albeit a rebadged Panny, that many of my friends seem to adore. While it's not for me, it's certainly for many like me.

And now, coming June 10th, Leica appears to be set to release the Leica Q, which if properly implemented with responsive AF, great optics, and a user friendly layout, might just be the ultimate street shooter or Autofocus partner &second body to one's M set up.

I can imagine that if the purported Q is successful, an interchangeable lens Q at a slightly reduced price, with the capacity to take both it's own lenses and Leica M lenses (while reading 6 bit codes) would be soon to follow. It would likely represent a a higher priced, yet better matched companion for those who would hope to use their M lenses on a body capable of focus peaking, while handling some of the corrections nessary for M lens utility. Pair that camera with an M9/240/or whatever color M comes next, and you really have a great option for most people in the Leica world, as well as for those looking to enter at the "relevant" price point.

I am not sure where Leica was quite going with the T system, and I imagine that some of the C's, V's, X's and other in sundry cameras may hang around, but my guess is that many of these experiments and legacies will fade with time.

Though I have never really left Leica, I have enjoyed forays into Fuji and Sony systems, and I imagine that many others have as well. Might we see some old friends return, with innovative products at hand or soon to come?

One would hope

Please share your own thoughts, ruminations, excitements, and frustrations.

 

[Vivek]

My concerns are:

1. Stop making faulty cameras.
2. They are really not worth their price- understand this and accept it as the reality or become irrelevant since more versatile products are on the market.

I am sure there will be a few die hards who would challenge these thoughts but they are a very small bunch with declining numbers.

 

[ashwinrao1]

I too will be curious how Leica responds to pricing structures. I would say that Leica has and will always view itself as a luxury product (akin to high end watch makers), and will price their products accordingly. However, pricing their products at exhorbitant levels in the digital era faces the consumer with a choice of considering luxury (and the RF experience of course) against much cheaper "competitiors" (not really, given the price difference) with similar or superior sensor technology and optically excellent lenses (I am thinking Sony, Fuji, and Olympus, given similar size/utilizaiton).

I am not sure that Leica intends to compete, but rather to protect and develop its own space. I would argue that many here, myself included, have chosen to try other brands at lower price points, because the cost was so high to reboot at the latest product cycle release (which appears to be every 3-4 years for Leica). I for one would have a hard time justifying replacing a $7000 camera every 3 years, knowning that my old camera has lost half or more of its original value over that 3 year window. To me, brand loyalty would involving making products that are in fact superior in build, operation, and reliability, using high end supplies, excellent manufacturing strategies, and great customer service....and of course pricing products farirly... After all, if one pays for the price of entry, shouldn't one expect luxury service?

 

[MCTuomey]

The price-to-value ratio matters to me. I'm coming around to the idea that Fuji's X-series has sufficient image quality, form/fun factor, and broader range of use for what I shoot that I may migrate away from Leica. The newest, greatest thing from Leica doesn't much matter for my photography, which is modest and served well by other mirrorless gear. I think that if I were printing quite large and wanted to shoot small format cameras for this output - and everything I shot could be captured well in focal lengths from about 18 to 90mm - then I'd continue to invest in cameras like the M246. But that's not what I do these days, so Leica for me is starting to feel like an affectation rather than a clear means to my photographic ends. Leica is always going to be a luxury-priced system, even the M-E and the M-Summarits are pretty pricey.

I don't know ... maybe I'm just turned-off by the gear hyperbole, and getting cranky.

More on topic: there's nothing I'd ask Leica to do differently since the M240, I believe it addressed deficiencies in the M8/9 bodies: reasonable weather-proofing, higher iso performance, write/buffer speed, shutter noise/feel. I'm not interested in X/T/other variations. It's the M lenses and form factor of the bodies that hold my interest. A few mm or grams here or there, adding or losing a feature or two, don't matter to me. Re service, no complaints. For a small company it's good enough, not pro level, but committed and fair and sufficient for my needs.

 

[4season]

For all I know, today's Leica may be exactly where needs to be in order to survive in a changed marketplace, nevertheless here are a few of my thoughts:

Reselling one's out-of-warranty digital M body is a royal pain because buyers live in fear of something breaking in an expensive, even unfixable way. New Leica products (at least as of a few years ago) were still too likely to need at least one trip back to the mothership for some sort of adjustment.

What could they do? How's about a sub-$400 factory recertification program including transferrable worldwide warranty? Who cares if they even remove the top cover; the real value is in the new warranty. Do some basic detailing, seal it in a branded baggie and it's as good as (re)sold. For Leica: $Profit!

But what's really changed over the past several years isn't Leica, the marketplace or anything else, it's me! I've finally begun to really believe that the je ne sais quoi I sought in my choice of camera and hifi gear was really a state of mind rather than some quality of the hardware. And that maybe, just maybe, I've been working too long to make money I don't really need in order to buy things that don't really matter. (But not to worry, I'll still be drooling over new toys for awhile longer).

 

[seakayaker]

I am happy with my M-P 240 (upgrade offer from M9) and a new Monochrom (original version) that I picked up a few weeks ago at a fantastic price (not much more than what people are asking for them used).

I love the rangefinder camera experience and both purchases were in my eyes great buys.

Not interested in the D-Lux, V-Lux, X's, X-E, T, C or the Q. Perhaps in few more years the full frame autofocus may be more desireable as the aging process continues and the eyesight diminishes but not at this moment in time.

I am happy with my current M & LTM lenses that I currently use with my film and digital M cameras.

I looked at the Sony but did not like the electronic finder at all. I was not interested in the Fuji since I already had another APS-C format camera and lenses set up.

Leica has been putting out a lot of product and hopefully they are selling it all. It appears they have been offering a lot of discounts on the M, M-P, original Monochrom and their current 12% discount on lenses through June 30.

In the classified sections lately a lot of used lenses are selling for great prices, for the buyer that is. I do not have an interest in the new 50 APO Cron, 28 LUX, or the other high priced lenses that Leica may be planning to release, but hopefully a lot of you other folks will line up and purchase them all. At the same time I am happy to see Leica release the new 2.4 line of lenses, great quality with pricing that a lot of folks can afford.

Love to see Leica have a successful strategy and keep on producing great products for years to come.

If I had a suggestion or perhaps a wish it would be that they offer fewer product lines and concentrate the R&D and and quality on the products they do offer.

 

[etrigan63]

I equate the Leica Q to the Sony RX1: an experiment to test the waters for a full-frame mirrorless camera system. If the Q does reasonably well (by Leica standards), then the interchangeable Q will soon follow. And with it the Q-mount (likely a full-frame version of the T-mount). Remember, the Q will not provide a rangefinder experience: mirrorless cameras provide an SLR experience via electronic viewfinder.

As I stated in the first thread about this camera, if Leica plays their cards right this can become the their new bread-and-butter camera system. Priced right (target Lexus class consumers, not Lamborghini ones), with the right features (weather sealing, fast accurate AF, outstanding IQ, great high ISO) and an ecosystem of accessories that matters (battery grips, nice stable of lenses, lens adapters for M and others, flash for those that want it, and others I can't think of right now), Leica can reclaim their crown as the go-to camera for photojournalists, street photographers, and the knowledgeable.

Am I dreaming? Maybe, but if we don't dream, then we don't innovate.

 

[Paratom]

Frienkly I think allready the M8 was a great camera after the IR problem had been analyses and solved (I never had a prblem to use those filters). The M9 was even better and the current M is very good as well (even though a little on the heavy side).
What I am not sure is how many people really like to spend 6k for a 28mm lens or 7k for a b&w camera.(Also after the current M body is more toward the end of its product life cycle).
I have to say the strategy to offer f1.4 expensive lenses and f2.8-3.8 smaller sized lower priced lenses is ok, but I would prefer if they just offered an improved 21/24 Elmarit and an improved 28mm Summicron instead for a medium price.

The T ... I find its better than many believe, and I really hope they will not give up on it. Give us an improved body, with more responsivness and some weather protection. The lenses are a very nice size / price/weight ration. I am afraif a FF system could become quite heavy and expensive.

I am afraid that I miss a little a clear strategy in Leicas new products. It seems they present one thing after the other and you dont know what happens next.

On the other side I love what IQ (specially color and transition) I can get with the S system, I seem to prefer the IQ I can achieve with the M system over many other systems (including Sony A7II which I still own), but I really hope Leica will be able to come back to a clearer product strategy.
For example the chance what be much higher that I bough a new b&w M if they presented a new M body, slightly slimmer in 2016 and then offered it in color and in b&w version.
Much nicer than buying upgrading my "old" MM with the current new MM 246, and then in 2016 Leica will present a slimmer and better color M body in 2016. And we have to wait till 2018 until we can buy a b& W version...
It seems like getting profit from a cow which is not spending enough milk anymore.
IMO the Summarits were the best product they have presented lately. If I didnt have other lenses allready I would probably just buy Summarits and safe the money for more expensive lenses.

 

[rayyan]

That the new lux 28 is better than the previous one, should come as no surprise.
That each M after the M8 was better than the previous one, too, should not be earth shattering.

But what is, to me, is the never ending testers, testing and informing the plebes that the new such and such is better. Heck for that price, and coming from Leica,
Why should it come as a surprise. Just pure and simple technology progressing and a new product introduced. And fuel the consumer.

The important point, for me, remains the use of the Leica M for the rangefinder experience, and the use of the M lenses. I honestly have not tried and neither have the desire to try each iteration of the M. The M8 far exceeds my meager capabilities. Better the new ones maybe, but what do they offer me that I cannot
do with my M8...besides bragging rights.

So with the different Leica new mounts. Some enjoy the experience of af in the new Leica offerings. But that is not Leica for me. There are far better choices for an af system...sans the red dot.

What I need is a lighter M mount rangefinder incorporating latest sensor technologies, a higher ISO at a competitive price.

For me Leica is a rangefinder system. It has a superb stable of wonderful lenses.
I do not need anything else from Leica..except sensible pricing.

 

[retow]

Take the M240. Replace the mechanical RF with an electronic one, make the body 2mm thinner, 200 grams lighter, add a thumb grip, put the Sony 24MP FF sensor sans AA filter into it, make it $2000 cheaper, get rid of the movie mode. Where is the pre-order button?

 

[wattsy]

My concerns are:

1. Stop making faulty cameras.

Yes, this is my concern too. Of the last 5 M system bodies I have bought, 4 have been or become seriously faulty – an 80% failure rate! The latest is my M-A (bought last autumn) which has an ongoing, yet intermittent, light leak problem. So much for the "Pure Mechanical Excellence" strapline that that they use to advertise this camera. Leica no longer have the ability to repair anything in a reasonable time (and have largely conceded as much to me) and are going to replace the camera. Wetzlar still have my 28 Summicron after a couple of months and one failed attempt to adjust it (Leica UK customer care adjudged the first attempt to be a failure – I didn't even see the lens). For the average punter (as opposed to the favoured sons who blog, etc.) the service at Wetzlar is a total disgrace. IMO Leica would do well to stop making anything new until they have got this side of things straight because, without adequate long term service support, the products aren't worth a candle.

 

[jkjod]

I only hope Leica the best with the Q series, even if its not my cup of tea - I hope they sell a boat load so they are able to continue making mechanical rangefinders in the future. I only have a film M (M2), and have owned a A7 and used some M mount glass on it. I didn't really enjoy that experience at all and realized that if I want to manual focus I want a rangefinder. Everyone is different I understand that, and having all these choices only puts pressure on manufactures to continue to innovate and make products better. I can only dream of a digital M at this point, but someday I hope to own a M-P (or whatever the current model is) and I hope it still somewhat resembles my M2 - I for one don't really want a Fuji hybrid lookalike...

 

[JohnW]

I came late to Leica, starting with digital: Digilux2, M8, M9. I loved them all. But as newer digital systems became available, and Leica's commitment to luxury branding seemed to deepen, I moved on. I felt that, as a digital solution, Leica would become a very costly long-term partnership. The value is just not there for me, given all the other options. If I were a film shooter, however, I would have no problem buying a new M7 or M-A, knowing the value actually would be there for many years to come.

I would like Leica to know that I don't mind paying a premium for their digital products because I admire their design philosophy so much. But digital cameras have become commodity products and their pricing needs to better reflect with that fact. At least if they care about the serious hobbyist market that I think I represent.

John

 

[KeithL]

My letter to Leica would implore them to get the simple stuff right.

I'm prepared to pay a premium for their wonderful lenses and for their beautifully made rangefinder cameras; that's the difficult stuff. But I'm incensed when expected to pay a premium for the same camera with a toy EVF, a camera that lacks scrolling liveview and a camera with a selection of format frame lines and yet no grid screen. Come on Leica, that's the simple stuff that most camera manufacturers have been offering for years and at a fraction of the cost of a Leica.

Pretty please.

 

[fotoism]

My main concern is not variety, but quality and price.

 

[aDam007]

This Q body is EXACTLY the body, I've been asking for for the last few years. The ONLY difference is that I didn't want it to be a fixed lens. I wanted Leica to take their M designs (summicrons if need be) and to turn them into AF lenses very similar to the Q lens (clicks into AF mode, but unclick it and the focus is mechanical. Also aperture ring is a must). That would be ideal, I could even do away with the Macro switch, unless Leica could build it into the camera body so all lenses had slight Macro mode (wouldn't that be fun).

I'd own a few of these, and still keep a few M-P240s or whatever replaces them.

The two things that I need to be ergonomically smart are the shutter speeds (dial on top), and aperture (ring on lens). The ISO should be directly accessible as well. And I love the styling of the M, the shape is awesome. In fact, the Q looks awesome, to bad it's a fixed lens.


I'd actually pay $5k for the body. If it didn't come with a lens, but had solid electronics, advanced EVF (at least A7 lvl) and quick non jittery AF (A7 focus hunts and racks a lot, it's jittery, Leica should do better). I'd also pay M prices for AF lenses (obviously it would need lenses).

I think the S-system although amazing, suffers from it's slower AF speed (those lenses are huge, a lot of elements to push around, and it's already faster then the other medium format cameras I've owned/used). You know, I do have to give Leica credit for it's S-system AF though. It's dead-on accurate, and rarely hunts. It's slow, but it marches to the point of focus then stops sharp. To bad about the lenses AF going sour all the time.

The last and final thing about Leica is their repair times, and customer service policies. It's ridiculous that I have to fight with them over faster turn around times on professional gear (M-system). And even more ridiculous that I have to fight with them on turn around times for the S-system (especially with my loaner swap warranty nonsense which BTW doesn't include lenses WTF?). And S-lenses have 1y warranty but they're twice as much as M lenses?! And I suppose twice as fragile, as "impact damage" is a term Leica's customer service likes to use to try and make you pay for their faulty lenses.

The short:
1) EVF M inspired body (main dials the same, body can be smaller, no RF is fine, Xpro1 idea would be cool though, or ContaxG2 style even)
2) Good AF (like the S-system, but without faulty lenses etc, and faster)
3) Top of the line EVF, none of this old tech nonsense like in the M240
4) Convert Summicron lenses to AF (Summilux to follow)
5) Make the body expensive like a 1Dx I don't care, make the lenses as expensive as M lenses, profit off of me. BUT make sure the product is solid, can compete with the best of them, and repair times are quick! I don't mind paying a premium for the lens designs, and ergonomic body as long as I have a modern system.
6) Keep making electronic updates to the M240 architecture, keep the core principles the same. The size, weight, RF mechanism, all great for people who want it (myself included).

 

[4season]

Let's say you owned Leica and had the resources to do pretty much anything with the company. Would you want to use the very best modern processes and materials to achieve the closest tolerances and greatest consistency & reliability?

(I assume you answered with an enthusiastic "Yes")

Now what do you say if it turns out that milling parts one at a time out of blocks of brass and aluminum is simply inconsistent with those goals, and that the real way forward is to invest in precision-casting technologies, and that among other things lens barrels will henceforth be made of some sort of mineral-filled acrylic not unlike that used by everyone else--would you accept that?

Just a hunch that something of the sort is in fact the case, and that a truly state of the art Leica lens might have a core of mineral-filled acrylic, with cosmetic exterior shell of attractive metal not unlike the Sony/Zeiss glass. Leica experimented with composites years ago, and maybe it's time for them to bring themselves back up to date.

 

[JohnBrew]

I recently purchased an M-P. I've had M8 & M9P and still have an M8.2, although I probably should sell it. All have been stellar cameras. I hope the M-P is my last Leica. It does everything I want from a rangefinder and then some. If I had my druthers, I'd want the latest iteration to be the same size as my old film rangefinders - I always loved the form & function of the M3 & 4. I suppose the M-P is a bit like me, getting older and putting on the odd pound or two. I still want to think of myself and my Leica as svelte and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Oh, well, they are still much fun to shoot and probably contribute quite a lot to my on-going joy of photography.

 

[animefx]

I love Rangefinders but how about innovating the Rangefinder mechanisms itself? A digital rangefinder would be interesting along with the ability the reposition the rangefinder patch to other areas of the frame (or anywhere in the frame).

Speaking of that, any future Leica with Live View should have the ability to move anywhere in the frame not just the center portion. Critical focus becomes less meaningful when we are still forced to focus and recompose if we don't want our subject dead center. Another benefit would be in camera Image Stabilization. Sony has proven that it's possible to do with manual focus lenses. I think Leica should add this even to their rangefinders. It's certainly possible even if the shutter has to be an electronic based shutter.

Keep innovating but remember why we love Leica to begin with.

 

[atanabe]

Ashwin,
I have always believed that errors happen, Leica is no exception to that. What is the most important thing is how you deal with the error. Leica has proven to be a loyal partner in dealing with mistakes, M8 IR, free filters, M9 cracked sensors, repaired even outside of warranty. The latest, corrosion of the M9 sensor, which they have agreed to remedy outside of warranty for every camera regardless of ownership. That to me says a lot about the company and the old adage "you get what you paid for".

New products such as the rumored Q intrigue me more than a new M240 or 246 as I enjoy having a compact, high quality camera that I can carry on vacation with my wife. While she does put up with my need to record life around me on our vacations, I want the equipment to be light and not the sole purpose of our trip. I have enjoyed my X1 and now X2 on vacations without "wanting or wishing" that I brought the M9 and a brace of lenses on many a journey. My X2 goes with me on bike rides as the dangling weight does not interfere my movement and crash into the handlebars. It can be shielded from the elements by tucking it in my jacket easily.
I have shot with the new 28 'Lux and it is nice, but for me, I will keep shooting with the 28 'Cron. I think for the time being, my M lineup is safe from trades and upgrade. But never say never!