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Thread: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Unfortunately, no company has unlimited resources so products that are not successful in the marketplace are usually destined to die. I suspect Leica will take the lessons learned from the X, T and XV and incorporate those lessons in future cameras but won't put much in the way of resources in the former going forward. Unfortunately, Leica is still behind in the sensor area and it will be hard for anyone to match or beat Sony given their resources and knowledge in sensor development. I think that at some point they would be wise to use Sony sensors tailored to meet their specific needs.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Leicas without a viewfinder make no sense to me. The APS-C sized sensor is/was ok but the slow and expensive lenses coupled with the lack of an OVF or EVF make cameras like the T and X-Vario forgetable.

    The Q seems like an instant legend.
    No offense but it seems like people without any experience with the gear in question endlessly keep on repeating the same absolute "wisdom" they find on the internet...

    I don't own an X-Vario but all people who own one seem to be unanimously pleased with it... That to me mean means a lot more than a bunch of internet professors endlessly repeating what they have read somewhere...

    The same goes for the T...

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I'm not sure you have any basis for your statement. There are plenty of people that were not satisfied the the T or XV. I'm one of those and I Owned both. Additionally, the market has spoken loud and clear. If you think not, go buy one and then try and sell it. In other words, put your money behind your words. The Q ticks most of the boxes the X, XV or T failed to tick off. FF, fast lens, fast AF, built in EVF, better high ISO performance and reasonable size.
    V/r John
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    No offense but it seems like people without any experience with the gear in question endlessly keep on repeating the same absolute "wisdom" they find on the internet...

    I don't own an X-Vario but all people who own one seem to be unanimously pleased with it... That to me mean means a lot more than a bunch of internet professors endlessly repeating what they have read somewhere...

    The same goes for the T...
    Or it could be people voicing their contrary opinions of why they didn't buy... It's not that everyone is just opposed to Leica there are legitimate deal breakers for some bit it lack of built in OVF/EVF or the operating system that is an issue with the T for SOME owners. For me it was an issue of pricing and target which leads to cross shopping the competition. I find the competition comparable at a much better price (APS-C mirrorless/Micro 4/3) or superior in technology/versatility at a similar price (FF Mirrorless/Entry level to mid level DSLR) but that's just me.

    As for the X-Vario... It was sort of a "joke product" to me because most were screaming for an interchangeable lens backup camera for the M. It could've been crop sensor then because the X has a decent sensor.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    The Q ticks most of the boxes the X, XV or T failed to tick off. FF, fast lens, fast AF, built in EVF, better high ISO performance and reasonable size.
    I don't tick boxes... I had a Sony A7s which also ticked all of those boxes and in the end it left me completely cold and didn't inspire me to go out and take pictures...

    I like the simplicity of the T, the image quality, its handling, the design, the weight, the size, etc.

    I am sorry it didn't work out for you, I hope the Q does.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I think when it came to the XV, the initial disappointment came from the marketing of the product prior to release. Leica sort of implied it was to be a mini M and thus most like myself assumed an interchangeable lens camera that could take M lenses and maybe be used along side a M rangefinder.

    I find the CV a bit of egnima. Lens we all know is slow. Af speed is passable for non demanding situations. Contols and layout are not all that different than a Q. Lens is a zoom lens which many like in a all in one travel related camera. Finially we have the optical quality. In a word impecable. Sharp at every aperture ans focal length (and yes some will say becuase its a slow lens). It does everything OK, has a good zoom range and great lens performance wise. Of course external EVF and APS sensor. A camera like this in a full frame Q line with Q performance would cost at least 2x as much or more.

    So price wise if optical perfomance is ultimate goal with very good high ISO performance, its a good camera. For those that also want a fast zoom lens, full frame and state of the art performance in othet areas, then significant costs are involved. Two entirely different markets.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I think one problem of the T is the touch screen interface. People think it just handles like a smartphone and therefore would not work for real photography.

    And just the fact that a product looks good/has a new design does not automatically mean and works less functional.

    If you try it you find out that the interface works quite well and the simplicity is refreshing. (At least my experience) For example the auto iso implementation is much better than that of the Sony A series, so set auto iso, longest exposure time, set one dial to f-stop and one to exp compensation, use A. Works very good.
    For me more intuitive than the user interface of my A7II.
    I still understand the interface is not for every body. But they could also offer another T-body with an X-like user interface additionally for those. I also would love the EVF to be integrated in the camera like the Q.

    Regarding Fuji...the x-trans sensor is not for me. I tried it for some time and find the images a little flat and the colors not to my taste.

    I will keep the T right now, besides maybe a fast 50mm euqivalent I have all lenses/focal length I need for such a system.

    IMO the T is quite a good addition an M system. You can use it with the 23mm is not too big, you can put either a UWA-Zoom, a nice standard zoom or even a Telezoom on it depending on the needs.

    If I think about the Q or a Q with interchangable lenses, I would see it more as a replacement for a M system, specially considering the price tags and the size.
    And as soons as lenses should be fast and have AF and be exchangable, I asume they will become quite a bit bigger than those of the M. Look at the Sony 35/1.4 FE for example.

    So IMO there is room for a dx based system, which allows better tonality and more room for shallow DOF than a m43-system, but allows smaller sized lenses, weight and lower price than FF.
    The T was introduced with a bit too much fanfare about the alu block, etc. Then introducing it with just 2 lenses killed for many of us and now after what 2 years they come out with 2 more lenses making 4 lenses not enough to get serious. They introduce it as an APS-C at a time the Sony FF 24 and 36Mp cameras are out and running. Too little, too late. Even the Q is too late when comparing it to RX-1.

    As for an addition to the M system, I do not buy it.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    The T was introduced with a bit too much fanfare about the alu block, etc.
    Just about everybody and their mother agrees on this...

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Then introducing it with just 2 lenses killed for many of us and now after what 2 years they come out with 2 more lenses making 4 lenses not enough to get serious.
    The T was announced in April 2014... so 4 lenses within a year is really not too bad, it would be extremely nice though if there was a lens roadmap a la Fuji, Fuji has really set the standard there!

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    They introduce it as an APS-C at a time the Sony FF 24 and 36Mp cameras are out and running. Too little, too late.
    I completely do not get your point here. Sony was also releasing 24 and even 12 MP APS-C and FF cameras when the 36MP D800 was already out....

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Even the Q is too late when comparing it to RX-1.
    I does seem like that one even has the measurabators and box tickers convinced...

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    As for an addition to the M system, I do not buy it.
    For me it is, I either shoot with the S2 or with the T. Since I bought the T the M is gathering dust...
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    The T was introduced with a bit too much fanfare about the alu block, etc. Then introducing it with just 2 lenses killed for many of us and now after what 2 years they come out with 2 more lenses making 4 lenses not enough to get serious. They introduce it as an APS-C at a time the Sony FF 24 and 36Mp cameras are out and running. Too little, too late. Even the Q is too late when comparing it to RX-1.

    As for an addition to the M system, I do not buy it.
    I am not sure if the goal of the T system is to offer 30 lenses.
    I saw it more like a combination of a Leica x2 with a Leica X-vario in the beginning.
    Either use the standard zoom (I have yet to see a better standard zoom in such size) or if light gets low put the 23/2.0 on it.
    Now with the UWA and the Telezoom the range is extended, but 90% I bring just the T with 23mm or T with standard zoom and 23mm.
    No quesion a fast 50mm equivalent or a fast portrait lens would complete the system.

    Regarding full frame or not - for me is a question of lens size and print size. Do you need 24mp or 36mp for the size of your prints, and are you willing to carry bigger lenses, get full frame.
    Do you prefer smaller lenses and still want decent IQ but dont need to print super big, dx seems like a very good compromise.
    For example IMO there is still no real full frame camera which can be seen as pockable, while there are the x1/x2/sigma dp.../Nikon A and Ricoh GR.
    Last edited by Paratom; 6th July 2015 at 05:41.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    bye the way. Sorry to all for the wrong spelling in the title of the thread.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    By the way, we are all entitled to our opinions. Mine are the 645Z for MF, and FF for anything else, be it M or Q. I print 13x19 smallest and up to 44x60. With cropping an APS-C does not hack it for me since I am not an internet poster who can easily get by with 6MP.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    By the way, we are all entitled to our opinions. Mine are the 645Z for MF, and FF for anything else, be it M or Q. I print 13x19 smallest and up to 44x60. With cropping an APS-C does not hack it for me since I am not an internet poster who can easily get by with 6MP.
    Sure, it could be an endless discussion about sensor size/resolution/etc.
    I find the difference between m43 and dx much bigger than between dx and ff. it also has a lot to do if one is more a shallow DOF lover or more someone who likes some depth of field in his images.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    I think Fuji is a great option if you are not averse to the X-Trans sensor (which I do not like at all).

    I also think the T desperately needs either a new (more sensible) body or to be dropped. It was too edgy and missed the mark by a mile for most users.

    If an interchangeable lens Q comes out, it may be possible to use the T lenses, but with a crop, perhaps?
    Have you tried the X-Trans files in Capture One? Don't let LightRooms poor rendition scare you off that sensor. I shoot weddings with a X-Pro 1 and Phase One back (which I mention because it gives a point of comparison of what my quality expectations are), and in C1 those X Pro are really nice.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Have you tried the X-Trans files in Capture One? Don't let LightRooms poor rendition scare you off that sensor. I shoot weddings with a X-Pro 1 and Phase One back (which I mention because it gives a point of comparison of what my quality expectations are), and in C1 those X Pro are really nice.
    2 years ago when I had a x-pro 1 I also was not that happy with that sensor. The camera itself and specially the hybrid viewfinder I found an excellent solution.
    More and more I am not 100% happy with LR any more. Also the Leica T files seem to look better in C1 vs LR.
    If it was possible to have a propper profile for the Leica S006 in C1 then I would switch all to C1, but I guess capture one does see the S too much as a competitive product. Too bad, I think it wouldnt have an influence on the decision between S and phase one. Nobody buys a phase one instead of a Leica S just because of the software, I think the decisions are based on other factors (do you want a more compact and faster pace MF system or a more flexible digital back)

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    As for the X-Vario... It was sort of a "joke product" to me because most were screaming for an interchangeable lens backup camera for the M. It could've been crop sensor then because the X has a decent sensor.
    How was the X Vario a joke product? Leica spent real money developing it and when considered for what it is, it is a very good camera. At 28mm it isn't even all that slow (half stop off the 28 Elmarit), while it is exceptionally sharp at ALL focal lengths, apertures and distances.

    I've paired the X Vario with my M Monochrom for over a year now and am always delighted with the results. I do admit to using the X Vario a lot less since I bought the X113 though.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by asiafish View Post
    How was the X Vario a joke product? Leica spent real money developing it and when considered for what it is, it is a very good camera. At 28mm it isn't even all that slow (half stop off the 28 Elmarit), while it is exceptionally sharp at ALL focal lengths, apertures and distances.

    I've paired the X Vario with my M Monochrom for over a year now and am always delighted with the results. I do admit to using the X Vario a lot less since I bought the X113 though.
    The X-Vario-IMO- clearly is not a joke. Its is a good camera.
    Same with the T, on paper the Sony A7II looks better, but in reality I use the T much more often and the IQ results are impressive.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The X-Vario-IMO- clearly is not a joke. Its is a good camera.
    Same with the T, on paper the Sony A7II looks better, but in reality I use the T much more often and the IQ results are impressive.
    It is a joke in the sense that they are not what Leica is all about. Leica is about fast lenses that work great wide open and putting the camera to one's eye to capture fleeting moments. So a Leica camera without a viewfinder is a joke IMHO. Does not mean it is worthless but man there is a HUGE difference in user experience/sensation from composing with the rear screen with the camera extended out infront of you (ala iPhone etc) to putting the camera to your eye and making images. Of course YMMV.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    It is a joke in the sense that they are not what Leica is all about. Leica is about fast lenses that work great wide open and putting the camera to one's eye to capture fleeting moments. So a Leica camera without a viewfinder is a joke IMHO. Does not mean it is worthless but man there is a HUGE difference in user experience/sensation from composing with the rear screen with the camera extended out infront of you (ala iPhone etc) to putting the camera to your eye and making images. Of course YMMV.
    Leica is not about fast lenses, they are about excellent lenses. R and M series always had lenses in many speed classes, but got their start with SMALL lenses. Elmarits and Elmars have been in the lineup for decades and still are today. The 24/3.8 Elmar ASPH is one of the most respected lenses in the M system. The Tri-Elmars remain popular and excellent at f/4.

    As for viewfinders, attaching them to the shoe is also very traditional Leica. The first Barnaks didn't have frame lines, and even today external viewfinders are often used for 135mm telephoto and for anything wider than 28mm. The EVF for the X Vario Isn't cutting edge, but it's entirely adequate and with it attached the XV is a delight to use.

    I look forward to spending to spending the weekend with mine.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    It is a joke in the sense that they are not what Leica is all about. Leica is about fast lenses that work great wide open and putting the camera to one's eye to capture fleeting moments. So a Leica camera without a viewfinder is a joke IMHO. Does not mean it is worthless but man there is a HUGE difference in user experience/sensation from composing with the rear screen with the camera extended out infront of you (ala iPhone etc) to putting the camera to your eye and making images. Of course YMMV.
    For me Leica is about excellent IQ, lenses where the fastest f-stop is already excellent (and not lenses which look fast on paper but you have to stop down 3 steps until IQ gets acceptable), its also about relatively small and unobtrusive cameras. Thats also the reason why I still have and love the X2. IMO still the most pockable camera with relatively large sensor. And Leica is about simple and intuitive user interface.

    However we agree that anybody has to decide on its own if a camera works well for him/her or not.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    It is a joke in the sense that they are not what Leica is all about. Leica is about fast lenses that work great wide open and putting the camera to one's eye to capture fleeting moments. So a Leica camera without a viewfinder is a joke IMHO. Does not mean it is worthless but man there is a HUGE difference in user experience/sensation from composing with the rear screen with the camera extended out infront of you (ala iPhone etc) to putting the camera to your eye and making images. Of course YMMV.
    Leica for me is about simplicity, minimalism, image quality, build quality, well balanced size and weight of body and lenses.

    There are fast and slow lenses, so reducing Leica to fast lenses only is not accurate IMO.

    I am certainly no fan of an external viewfinder and would like to see a built-in one but at the end of the day it works.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    A Leica Q with an M mount (interchangeable lens capability) would be awesome, at the same or lower price. If one wants an optical viewfinder (or both) there is the Leica M. But the EVF in the Q seems excellent and a great option for those who want a more "modern" take on the traditional rangefinder camera.

    Fuji has been right on with their X series in that respect. It is putting out products that, unsurprisingly, Leica fans also love. Great glass, well made bodies, small size and simple designs but with great technology behind it.

    The Q is of huge significance to Leica, at least in the eyes of a lot of Leica fans. The X-Vario and the T were/are really good products but really do not generate the passion that the M and now the Q does. The T might a little due to its really nice build and cool user interface. But I tested the Vario (Leica loaned one to me) and honestly was confused by it a bit and really did not like it all for street shooting in New York City. Lens too slow, screen ok, no built in Viewfinder. Image quality was decent but nothing amazing. I found the Fuji X-T10 with the 18-55 f2.8-4 kit zoom much nicer to use (a bit more confusing though due to all the options/settings) with an awesome EVF. The look of the files with the different on board presets were also very very nice on the Fuji.

    Again I am sure the x-vario can be used to make some amazing images but it is a forgettable product from Leica. The T, not so much and of course the Q is a landmark product IMHO.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Again I am sure the x-vario can be used to make some amazing images but it is a forgettable product from Leica. The T, not so much and of course the Q is a landmark product IMHO.
    The Mighty Internet has spoken once more.... No offense Ken but anybody with a minimum of Google skills and not knowing anything about photography can come up with exactly the same opinion in less than 10 minutes by endlessly repeating what other people have already repeated from other people who purely looked at the specs... If you haven't used the cameras why even bother pretending you know all IMHO...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Fuji has been right on with their X series in that respect. It is putting out products that, unsurprisingly, Leica fans also love. Great glass, well made bodies, small size and simple designs but with great technology behind it.
    This is true for the X-Pro1 and the X-E1-2 IMO. To a much lesser extent for the X-T1 and the X-T10 where they abandoned the simplicity and more started making cameras like Sony and Olympus. To their credit the market seems to love it though.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    The Mighty Internet has spoken once more.... No offense Ken but anybody with a minimum of Google skills and not knowing anything about photography can come up with exactly the same opinion in less than 10 minutes by endlessly repeating what other people have already repeated from other people who purely looked at the specs... If you haven't used the cameras why even bother pretending you know all IMHO...



    This is true for the X-Pro1 and the X-E1-2 IMO. To a much lesser extent for the X-T1 and the X-T10 where they abandoned the simplicity and more started making cameras like Sony and Olympus. To their credit the market seems to love it though.
    True, I have yet to use the Q. And next time I get a chance to play with the T il make sure it has a fast lens and the external evf.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    A Leica Q with an M mount (interchangeable lens capability) would be awesome, at the same or lower price. If one wants an optical viewfinder (or both) there is the Leica M. But the EVF in the Q seems excellent and a great option for those who want a more "modern" take on the traditional rangefinder camera.

    Fuji has been right on with their X series in that respect. It is putting out products that, unsurprisingly, Leica fans also love. Great glass, well made bodies, small size and simple designs but with great technology behind it.

    The Q is of huge significance to Leica, at least in the eyes of a lot of Leica fans. The X-Vario and the T were/are really good products but really do not generate the passion that the M and now the Q does. The T might a little due to its really nice build and cool user interface. But I tested the Vario (Leica loaned one to me) and honestly was confused by it a bit and really did not like it all for street shooting in New York City. Lens too slow, screen ok, no built in Viewfinder. Image quality was decent but nothing amazing. I found the Fuji X-T10 with the 18-55 f2.8-4 kit zoom much nicer to use (a bit more confusing though due to all the options/settings) with an awesome EVF. The look of the files with the different on board presets were also very very nice on the Fuji.

    Again I am sure the x-vario can be used to make some amazing images but it is a forgettable product from Leica. The T, not so much and of course the Q is a landmark product IMHO.
    off all of my cameras, X Vario and X 113 are my best street shooters, better than my M-E or M Monochrom. APS-C lends itself to street due to the increased depth of field. X Vario would be even better than X due to the 28mm lens, but X is a handier and less obtrusive size due to the smaller lens. Both are outstanding.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I used the T for a day and in the end it had no appeal for me and was very glad to get back to using my M's.

    I am not stating what the internet says, I am stating my opinion. I do not read much into internet traffic as it is also others opinions and to me, my hands on use is REAL information to me. Real usage comments help the most, opinions the least.

    Now that I have had the Q for many weeks, I like the feel and how it gets out of my , external EVF or not. Woukd I like the next M to be like the Q-no. Some features might aid M users like a better/faster processor and better ISO capabilities and with perhaps an external EVF with Q like quality, switchability like how my RX-1 external EVF works.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by asiafish View Post
    How was the X Vario a joke product? Leica spent real money developing it and when considered for what it is, it is a very good camera. At 28mm it isn't even all that slow (half stop off the 28 Elmarit), while it is exceptionally sharp at ALL focal lengths, apertures and distances.

    I've paired the X Vario with my M Monochrom for over a year now and am always delighted with the results. I do admit to using the X Vario a lot less since I bought the X113 though.
    Hello... I'm happy that you like the X-Vario and I've stated my own personal reasons for calling it a "joke product" in the quote that you used. It doesn't only have to do just with the slow lens although that doesn't help it's case. It has to do with how the product was marketed as a "Mini M" and it is not in any sense of reality. It also has to do with it's lack of usefulness in my camera bags. It's a large sensor, relatively large sized, P&S camera with a slow zoom that has limited range on it.

    I have no issues with the sensor or ability of the camera in daylight but few buy Leica's specifically for the f/4 or slower lenses. They may buy f/4 or slower lenses for their Leica but when people think Leica they think Noctilux, Summilux, Summicron, and Elmarit to a lesser degree. I refuse to believe that most would rather take a X-Vario over a M camera as well ESPECIALLY for street. If you do well I would say you are in the minority of Leica Camera owners (current or past.)

    Again this is from my limited experience (not internet fluff) with the T and the X, X-Vario. I haven't tried the Q yet but I like the results of what I see from it although I'm not a huge fan of the 28mm focal length. It is what it is though no harm or foul to those that like the T... Enjoy it. We all have our preferences. I won't attempt to talk you into my own as every camera system has SOME issues. It's all a matter of what you're willing to live with.

    Well I'm back off into Sony, Sony Zeiss, Sony G, Loxia, and Zeiss Batis land. I've long sold my Leica cameras but I retain a small stock of M mount lenses just in case something catches my attention seriously.
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  27. #77
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    using all 3 systems T/M/Q my personal rating/conclusion is as follows.
    My long term and continuesly proven system specially for 35 and 50mm is the Leica M. I really like the OVF/rangefinder, the lenses and also the IQ I get from the sensor.

    The T for my use is a good addition because:
    -It allows me to use Tele and Zooms
    -I can use it with M lenses as a backup
    -with the 23/2.0 its still not too big and it has a small flash

    The Q is great as well but for me the flexibility of the T and M in regards of focal lengths etc. is more important for me than the advantages of the Q.

    As a fixed focal length camera my favorite would be still the X2 without additional viewfinder because it is considerably smaller than all those other cameras.

    But overall my opinion its all so much a matter of taste and personal preferences that everbody has to find out himself what works for him.
    Some cameras/systems look great on paper and later I found out I dont get connected to it, and with some others it was the other way around.
    Best, Tom

  28. #78
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post
    Unfortunately, no company has unlimited resources so products that are not successful in the marketplace are usually destined to die. I suspect Leica will take the lessons learned from the X, T and XV and incorporate those lessons in future cameras but won't put much in the way of resources in the former going forward. Unfortunately, Leica is still behind in the sensor area and it will be hard for anyone to match or beat Sony given their resources and knowledge in sensor development. I think that at some point they would be wise to use Sony sensors tailored to meet their specific needs.
    Which, for the M (and most likely the Q), Sony was unable to supply...
    Sony makes great sensors, but their development is obviously geared to their own needs, and maybe Nikon's, but they will certainly not put their resources towards developing products for somebody else's niche markets.
    It is the common Internet misconception that there is such a thing as "the best" sensor for all types of camera.
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  29. #79
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I think it is interesting how even the opinion about sensors differ.
    If I look at output of the M and T and X I do find the color pretty good, I even go so far and say I often prefer it over the color I get from my Sony A7II, where skin sometimes looks a little "dead" for my taste.
    I cant say how much comes from the lens and how much from the sensors, but I find Leica achieves often to get saturated colors without looking artificial.
    I have to say though that specially for the Leica T I know prefer C1 colors over LR colors when doing raw conversion.
    For me LR has become a little disappointing over the last 1-2 years in regards of color profiles.

    I know there are other things like DR, banding when pushing shadows etc., but IMO color is overseen often.

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