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Thread: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

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    Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    With all respect for the new Q camera - I do hope that Leica will use some of its technology (fast AF/IS/fast response) and put it in a new T body.

    I understand the T has not been very succesfull despite I believe it is still not a bad camera and the lenses are excellent as is the IQ.
    I think one of the biggest faults was the marketing focusing too much on the luxury factor and not enough on the simple user interface and excellent lenses. Also the first firmware was too slow.

    I would still not want to exchange my T+lenses for a Q, because I enjoy the flexibility a lot to either use the fast Summicron 23mm, or the UWA-Zoom , or the standard zoom, or even Tele if needed.

    Now we could hope for an version with interchangable lenses based on the Q, but how big would these become? I think the should not give up the dx-sensor based line beside their FF products.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I'd advise you to jump ship, or enjoy the camera you have as it is. I think the T was a statement of design and creativity rather than a serious product venture. Leica didn't sell very many Ts, but even if they had I think they wanted it to be a brand building type of thing for a certain kind of enthusiast. Not something like the Sony or Fuji systems which are built out in the traditional way.

    Respectfully, if you're looking for an APS-C solution that exists as a true system, which will be the subject of upgrades and enhancements for years to come...I can't help but point out that Fuji cameras are incredibly mature. Same too with Pentax DSLRs, which are very compact and have truly fantastic features, optics, and sensors. This is of course, speaking of APS-C system cameras.

    Worst case here is that you have a camera you really like, which ain't half bad as far am I'm concerned.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I think Fuji is a great option if you are not averse to the X-Trans sensor (which I do not like at all).

    I also think the T desperately needs either a new (more sensible) body or to be dropped. It was too edgy and missed the mark by a mile for most users.

    If an interchangeable lens Q comes out, it may be possible to use the T lenses, but with a crop, perhaps?

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    i don't think t will die. per usual the first release is not good just like the x1, then they fix the issues and release x2/t2 and all is well. leica is not a small company anymore and they need lots of products.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    The T should have been selling like there was nothing better.

    This, I deduce, from a search of this forum when it was announced.

    Some dealers even were reported to have a backlog of 20,000 units at one stage.

    Oh well..here today, gone tomorrow. Just like all of us.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Sorry, Tom. They should have killed it in the conception stage. Would have saved a lot of metal work, electricity and helped the environment.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Sorry, Tom. They should have killed it in the conception stage.
    Just out of curiosity why such strong feelings of negativity?

    It is a good camera and all flaws could be addressed through firmware upgrades I feel... provided Leica would be willing to do so...

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Sorry, Tom. They should have killed it in the conception stage. Would have saved a lot of metal work, electricity and helped the environment.
    Would've save a lot of time from chronicling the "life" of a single block of aluminum as well.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Just out of curiosity why such strong feelings of negativity?

    It is a good camera and all flaws could be addressed through firmware upgrades I feel... provided Leica would be willing to do so...
    I won't speak for Vivek's reasons but I echo the statement that it wasn't the right camera for the right time.

    Leica has a heritage problem that many other brands have - they insist on a legacy/heritage product remaining the halo for a brand where technology has advanced. That's not to say that the M isn't a fine camera because it is but what it's not is cutting edge. There are cameras that Leica will intentionally cripple to remain below the M. Some people would like a rangerfinder with a built in EVF/OVF hybrid ala Fuji X-Pro 1. Some just want a more svelte body.

    An interchangeable lens Q in place of the T would been the right camera at the right time - in fact I'd go so far to say that had the T been an interchangeable lens Q instead then I'd still be firmly in Leica's camp and not in Sony's.

    I already had the M lenses (.I still have a few actually.) I just wanted a backup body and added versatility for telephoto when needed. Leica not producing this led me to find it elsewhere but the trouble was that I didn't know that I'd like the FE system as much as I do.

    Sony FE is not perfect - no system is but it gets the job done for me.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I have been round in circles several times thinking about the T. Must admit it is the Leica glass. Prices have dropped which also makes it attractive.

    What tends to put me off in the end is two things. Firstly, the sensor is the same as in my Ricoh GR. I have got to know that sensor very well and it is fantastic for a p&s. But it has limitations in terms of file size and quality at higher iso. Secondly, the ergonomics.

    As soon as I saw the back of the Q, with the integrated EVF I just knew it was right and the T is now definitely not for me. Not sure the Q is either - although I am very tempted - but maybe Leica will finally put us all out of our misery and finally make a Q2 with interchangeable lenses.

    LouisB

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I think one problem of the T is the touch screen interface. People think it just handles like a smartphone and therefore would not work for real photography.

    And just the fact that a product looks good/has a new design does not automatically mean and works less functional.

    If you try it you find out that the interface works quite well and the simplicity is refreshing. (At least my experience) For example the auto iso implementation is much better than that of the Sony A series, so set auto iso, longest exposure time, set one dial to f-stop and one to exp compensation, use A. Works very good.
    For me more intuitive than the user interface of my A7II.
    I still understand the interface is not for every body. But they could also offer another T-body with an X-like user interface additionally for those. I also would love the EVF to be integrated in the camera like the Q.

    Regarding Fuji...the x-trans sensor is not for me. I tried it for some time and find the images a little flat and the colors not to my taste.

    I will keep the T right now, besides maybe a fast 50mm euqivalent I have all lenses/focal length I need for such a system.

    IMO the T is quite a good addition an M system. You can use it with the 23mm is not too big, you can put either a UWA-Zoom, a nice standard zoom or even a Telezoom on it depending on the needs.

    If I think about the Q or a Q with interchangable lenses, I would see it more as a replacement for a M system, specially considering the price tags and the size.
    And as soons as lenses should be fast and have AF and be exchangable, I asume they will become quite a bit bigger than those of the M. Look at the Sony 35/1.4 FE for example.

    So IMO there is room for a dx based system, which allows better tonality and more room for shallow DOF than a m43-system, but allows smaller sized lenses, weight and lower price than FF.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    The NEX-5N had all these features (and more). What is so special about the T (other the monoblock bodice) that commands such a price?
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The NEX-5N had all these features (and more). What is so special about the T (other the monoblock bodice) that commands such a price?
    The native lenses are better. The EVF is better. The colors (specially skin tone) I prefer over Sony (even if it is maybe comparable sensor). Auto ISO implementation is better. I also prefer the user interface with 2 wheels and few/nearly no buttons.

    No question the price-value ratio is not better. We do have to pay premium if we choose Leica. But beside functionality I also dont mind a good looking and feeling design. I see some similarities with apple here.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    So, there are some changes. While I understand that you would prefer the aesthetics and such, there is no comparison to Apple. They are in an ever expanding market while digital cameras are a shrinking market. Huge difference.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    It reminds me a bit of the Porsche 924, the undermotorised Porsche that neither looked nor drove like the real thing. Still, it ended its live as the 968, a very competent sports car that pushed most of the right buttons.

    I love the concept of the T, but the lack of viewfinder, the lack of prime lenses, the lack of peaking for manual focus and the wrongly shaped grip makes it difficult to love other than as a showpiece. Correct the shortcomings and I think it can become the camera that the Lunar was not; a high quality piece of photographic gear that one can also carry as a piece of jewelry. Nothing wrong with that

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, there are some changes. While I understand that you would prefer the aesthetics and such, there is no comparison to Apple. They are in an ever expanding market while digital cameras are a shrinking market. Huge difference.
    I was meaning the comparison in regards of offering a product which combines functionality and a nice solid desgin and taking premium money for it.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    What I mean: I hope they wont give up about the whole thing just based on the missing success of the first body (which does have some room for improvement).
    The lenses are very very nice and not even overpriced IMO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It reminds me a bit of the Porsche 924, the undermotorised Porsche that neither looked nor drove like the real thing. Still, it ended its live as the 968, a very competent sports car that pushed most of the right buttons.

    I love the concept of the T, but the lack of viewfinder, the lack of prime lenses, the lack of peaking for manual focus and the wrongly shaped grip makes it difficult to love other than as a showpiece. Correct the shortcomings and I think it can become the camera that the Lunar was not; a high quality piece of photographic gear that one can also carry as a piece of jewelry. Nothing wrong with that

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    What I mean: I hope they wont give up about the whole thing just based on the missing success of the first body (which does have some room for improvement).
    The lenses are very very nice and not even overpriced IMO.
    I think that's the thing I think the lenses are overpriced and surprisingly the body was sold at a respectable price initially in my mind. If the T were FFI would give it a slight pass for the lens prices but as a crop sensor people are going to crossshop this with Micro 4/3 (with an excellent lens lineup,) all of the APS-C cameras, and the mirrorless FF cameras. $3500 for a APS-C camera and a prime/kit zoom just isn't going to fly off the shelves. A FF version may have some commercial success at that price but a crop sensor wouldn't get looked at twice by me when I could get close to the same performance for half that money.

    There lies the problem with the Leica T. It wasn't developed in the right time period or for the correct market - sort of like the celestial "Hasselblad" cameras (that we all joke about) that they're giving away at their fire sale prices. I sort of view the Leica T in the same train of thought - a boutique camera disaster in spite of the capable performance. They are price out of relevancy for most that would be interested in them... oh an OVF/EVF is a must in any camera... especially a system camera.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Tre, you are very eloquent.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I think that's the thing I think the lenses are overpriced and surprisingly the body was sold at a respectable price initially in my mind. If the T were FFI would give it a slight pass for the lens prices but as a crop sensor people are going to crossshop this with Micro 4/3 (with an excellent lens lineup,) all of the APS-C cameras, and the mirrorless FF cameras. $3500 for a APS-C camera and a prime/kit zoom just isn't going to fly off the shelves. A FF version may have some commercial success at that price but a crop sensor wouldn't get looked at twice by me when I could get close to the same performance for half that money.
    Yes, maybe price is one of the dealbreakers here. Maybe people who pay premium rather pay even more premium and go fullframe.
    Even though the better m43 lenses are not cheap either.

    I am still impressed how good those T-lenses are.

    Wrong time for the T... I think Leica really tried to bring something new and innovative (in regards of the UI) and I feel it works astonishingly good, but the market seems to come to a different conclusion. Or maybe it is priced to high for the target market.

    I for now, when I grab for a mirrorless its most of the time the T over the EM1 and A7II. They are all good.

    But who knows, maybe one day I will own a FF Q-system with 5 lenses instead of all of them including the M. At the moment I dont think I will, because I like optical viewfinders way too much and I do see EVF mostly usefull for cameras, where an optical viewfinder doesnt fit in (meaning smaller sized cameras).
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Yes, maybe price is one of the dealbreakers here. Maybe people who pay premium rather pay even more premium and go fullframe.
    Even though the better m43 lenses are not cheap either.

    I am still impressed how good those T-lenses are.

    Wrong time for the T... I think Leica really tried to bring something new and innovative (in regards of the UI) and I feel it works astonishingly good, but the market seems to come to a different conclusion. Or maybe it is priced to high for the target market.

    I for now, when I grab for a mirrorless its most of the time the T over the EM1 and A7II. They are all good.

    But who knows, maybe one day I will own a FF Q-system with 5 lenses instead of all of them including the M. At the moment I dont think I will, because I like optical viewfinders way too much and I do see EVF mostly usefull for cameras, where an optical viewfinder doesnt fit in (meaning smaller sized cameras).
    Sometimes manufacturers bring things to market that are literally tests of various features. This honestly could have been a test of the touch screen interface for future cameras like the M or now Q. There is just so much else about this camera that made it not make sense. A $2000 dollar 18-55/3.5-5.6 isn't going to excite anyone considering that kind of zoom has been associate with Canon Rebels for the last decade. Which is why Fuji was praised for their version, which managed good construction AND 2.8-4.0.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Yes, maybe price is one of the dealbreakers here. Maybe people who pay premium rather pay even more premium and go fullframe.
    Even though the better m43 lenses are not cheap either.

    I am still impressed how good those T-lenses are.

    Wrong time for the T... I think Leica really tried to bring something new and innovative (in regards of the UI) and I feel it works astonishingly good, but the market seems to come to a different conclusion. Or maybe it is priced to high for the target market.

    I for now, when I grab for a mirrorless its most of the time the T over the EM1 and A7II. They are all good.

    But who knows, maybe one day I will own a FF Q-system with 5 lenses instead of all of them including the M. At the moment I dont think I will, because I like optical viewfinders way too much and I do see EVF mostly usefull for cameras, where an optical viewfinder doesnt fit in (meaning smaller sized cameras).
    Price and value are huge dealbreakers. The T needs to be prices in line or slightly above the competition so sub $2000 body (check) and lenses in the $800-2500 price range and not much higher. My exact reaction (in my head) to the price of the 18-55 kit zoom was "F*** YOU!!!"

    I get it Leica has rich photographic heritage and it's almost acceptable on the M simply because it's the ONLY digital rangefinder out there. There are plenty of mirrorless cameras so you need to set yourself apart. Nothing wrong with the Leica T menu - it was decent but photographers are resistant to change. That's something that Leica could've learned from Sony with the NEX menus. I personally didn't find them to be difficult but there were enough complaints that they went Alpha menus (which I find less intuitive than the NEX ones but thankfully I only need to go in them to turn off WiFi or format SD cards) for all cameras.

    Maybe Zeiss waters down their image somewhat by licensing their coatings/names to Sony but they do remind us that they still are a premium lens designer when they make Otus, Batis, ZF.2/ZE and other premium lenses.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Price and value are huge dealbreakers. The T needs to be prices in line or slightly above the competition so sub $2000 body (check) and lenses in the $800-2500 price range and not much higher. My exact reaction (in my head) to the price of the 18-55 kit zoom was "F*** YOU!!!"

    I get it Leica has rich photographic heritage and it's almost acceptable on the M simply because it's the ONLY digital rangefinder out there. There are plenty of mirrorless cameras so you need to set yourself apart. Nothing wrong with the Leica T menu - it was decent but photographers are resistant to change. That's something that Leica could've learned from Sony with the NEX menus. I personally didn't find them to be difficult but there were enough complaints that they went Alpha menus (which I find less intuitive than the NEX ones but thankfully I only need to go in them to turn off WiFi or format SD cards) for all cameras.

    Maybe Zeiss waters down their image somewhat by licensing their coatings/names to Sony but they do remind us that they still are a premium lens designer when they make Otus, Batis, ZF.2/ZE and other premium lenses.
    Two things matter to me:

    1) the handling of the camera. Do I like using it? Does it make me want to go out and take pictures?
    2) image quality

    The Leica T ticks both boxes for me.

    I also have the Fuji X-T1 and (and X-Pro1) APS-C cameras. The X-T1 with 23mm comes in at $1,900, significantly cheaper than the T, less than half with EVF included.

    Different cameras, different experiences, I am OK with both.

    Personally I feel that the body and the 23mm lens (I rarely use zooms) are not overpriced. The EVF is another matter, it should have been built-in and lag less...

    About Sony, I tried the A7s, very good camera but in the end not for me, I sold the A7s and kept the T.

    The A7rII looks fabulous though and I might go for one, that is after trying the Leica Q...

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Sometimes manufacturers bring things to market that are literally tests of various features. This honestly could have been a test of the touch screen interface for future cameras like the M or now Q. There is just so much else about this camera that made it not make sense. A $2000 dollar 18-55/3.5-5.6 isn't going to excite anyone considering that kind of zoom has been associate with Canon Rebels for the last decade. Which is why Fuji was praised for their version, which managed good construction AND 2.8-4.0.
    The problem is people dont see the difference between a slow standard zoom from Leica which is sharp through all f-stops vs a cheapo standard kit zoom (from Canon/Sony/Nikon) which needs to be stopped down even further to start delivering acceptable results.
    For example the T wide angle zoom in the 28-35mm FOV range beats the Sony 16-35 FE lens easily.
    But many people look at specs when comparing lenses.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I think one problem of the T is the touch screen interface. People think it just handles like a smartphone and therefore would not work for real photography.

    And just the fact that a product looks good/has a new design does not automatically mean and works less functional.

    If you try it you find out that the interface works quite well and the simplicity is refreshing. (At least my experience) For example the auto iso implementation is much better than that of the Sony A series, so set auto iso, longest exposure time, set one dial to f-stop and one to exp compensation, use A. Works very good.
    For me more intuitive than the user interface of my A7II.
    I still understand the interface is not for every body. But they could also offer another T-body with an X-like user interface additionally for those. I also would love the EVF to be integrated in the camera like the Q.

    Regarding Fuji...the x-trans sensor is not for me. I tried it for some time and find the images a little flat and the colors not to my taste.

    I will keep the T right now, besides maybe a fast 50mm euqivalent I have all lenses/focal length I need for such a system.

    IMO the T is quite a good addition an M system. You can use it with the 23mm is not too big, you can put either a UWA-Zoom, a nice standard zoom or even a Telezoom on it depending on the needs.

    If I think about the Q or a Q with interchangable lenses, I would see it more as a replacement for a M system, specially considering the price tags and the size.
    And as soons as lenses should be fast and have AF and be exchangable, I asume they will become quite a bit bigger than those of the M. Look at the Sony 35/1.4 FE for example.

    So IMO there is room for a dx based system, which allows better tonality and more room for shallow DOF than a m43-system, but allows smaller sized lenses, weight and lower price than FF.
    I do agree on the fact that a APS-C sensor size has lots of advantages if you look into the overall size of a system - at least up to a certain amount of focal length.

    Anyway as nice and intriguing as the T system is, it is still APSC. Which means it is not FF. And just continuing to spin that thought, it is much better and CHEAPER to go for a great APSC system like the Nikon D7200 with some selected glass. Especially if one takes into account how good NEF files and Nikkor lenses are handled with todays RAW converters like LR6 or C1Pro8.

    On the other hand a FF Leica AF system based on today's Q with interchangeable lenses would appeal at least for me to jump in again to Leica. Especially if prices stay in the same relation to the M system as the current Q is positioned.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!


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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Thanks for the link, at least I dont feel alone anymore with my relatively positive opinion about the T.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Enjoy your Leica T for what it is, and for as long as it lasts? Everything gets discontinued eventually.

    I agree that it's one of the freshest designs from Leica in a long time. But clearly they are playing the luxury-products game with seemingly arbitrary prices, emphasizing how good I'm supposed to feel if I own one, while downplaying actual performance. And that's okay if you're into that sort of thing, but I've been there before, and for the most part come away no happier than if I carefully selected more value-priced goods. I'd say Apple delivers pretty good value overall; Rolex, not so much.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The problem is people dont see the difference between a slow standard zoom from Leica which is sharp through all f-stops vs a cheapo standard kit zoom (from Canon/Sony/Nikon) which needs to be stopped down even further to start delivering acceptable results.
    For example the T wide angle zoom in the 28-35mm FOV range beats the Sony 16-35 FE lens easily.
    But many people look at specs when comparing lenses.
    Hi Tom. I quite agree, tragic isn't it, and the wide zoom is really one of the best such lenses I've ever used. Whereas Leica have used relatively slow variable apertures to maximise the performance in a small lens others use it to make cheap lenses.

    However, I still feel that the REAL problem with the T is that it simply isn't responsive enough: black out times in the viewfinder, start up time, AF performance. If the camera behaved like the Q in these respects, I'm sure that people would have fallen in love with it and then others would join in as well.

    You and I both know that the interface is great when you get used to it. But the speed of the camera is really irritating when compared with the competition.

    I'd like to see a built in EVF but I feel that a really responsive body would still be enough to resurrect interest.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    And that "responsive body" could be done via a firmware update? Yes?
    Hope so, as I am quite happy with mine right now, but would be happier still if it got "better".
    I do dislike the Viso-EVF, it is a pain sticking up like it does. But it is what it is. If I wasn't solely manual M lenses with mine I could possibly use it in "tourist mode", sans EVF, but with the manual lenses I find I need it.
    Gary

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I think the responsiveness has been improved a lot allready.
    It is not fast like the EM1 but with the standardzoom and 23mm iits not bad either.
    With the Telezoom.... not so great I admit.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Whereas Leica have used relatively slow variable apertures to maximise the performance in a small lens others use it to make cheap lenses.
    I thought every maker do it for the same reason that Leica purportedly made it, no?

    The original Panasonic G1 kit zoom set the ball rolling in terms of standards, I think.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I thought every maker do it for the same reason that Leica purportedly made it, no?

    The original Panasonic G1 kit zoom set the ball rolling in terms of standards, I think.
    The original 14-45 was pretty good, the following 14-42 not so much.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I thought every maker do it for the same reason that Leica purportedly made it, no?

    The original Panasonic G1 kit zoom set the ball rolling in terms of standards, I think.
    Hi Vivek
    Not complaining about some great kit lenses (Olympus make some as well).

    I had an interesting discussion with Peter Karbe about the philosophy with these T lenses (and the summarits as well) The idea being to make NO sacrifices in terms of image or build quality, but some in terms of maximum/variable aperture. He made in interesting comment about Constant Aperture zoom lenses, to the effect that you ended up throwing away aperture at the wide end.

    All the best

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Thanks for the clarification, Jono.

    Yes that makes sense (you should feel free to post such info- there are not even pretend optical experts here as in some other sites. ).

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Tom. I quite agree, tragic isn't it, and the wide zoom is really one of the best such lenses I've ever used. Whereas Leica have used relatively slow variable apertures to maximise the performance in a small lens others use it to make cheap lenses.
    I can see Leica’s point. I am not sure how much this strategy is being understood and appreciated by the market though. As ISO performance improves perhaps also the appreciation for these lenses will increase?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    However, I still feel that the REAL problem with the T is that it simply isn't responsive enough: black out times in the viewfinder, start up time, AF performance. If the camera behaved like the Q in these respects, I'm sure that people would have fallen in love with it and then others would join in as well.
    I have a different view on this. Just like the X Vario it is the marketing IMO that killed the T. It was positioned in a wrong way and once the harm is done it is difficult to change the perception of the general audience. I personally am OK with the startup time. Much better than eg. a Sony. The AF speed is sufficient for most of my needs as well. I have more issues with the AF not locking focus. As far as the EVF goes, it is an eyesore, very invonvenient when putting your camera in a bag, it has black outs, it lags, etc. Using it is just not a very satisfying experience. Hopefully new models of the T and the X also get a built-in viewfinder just like the Q.
    Last edited by JorisV; 16th June 2015 at 06:34.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    I can see Leica’s point. I am not sure how much this strategy is being understood and appreciated by the market though. As ISO performance improves perhaps also the appreciation for these lenses will increase?



    I have a different view on this. Just like the X Vario it is the marketing IMO that killed the T. It was positioned in a wrong way and once the harm is done it is difficult to change the perception of the general audience. I personally am OK with the startup time. Much better than eg. a Sony. The AF speed is sufficient for most of my needs as well. I have more issues with the AF not locking focus. As far as the EVF goes, it is an eyesore, very invonvenient when putting your camera in a bag, it has black outs, it lags, etc. Using it is just not a very satisfying experience. Hopefully new models of the T and the X also get a built-in viewfinder just like the Q.
    I find the EVF of the T quite good, much better than the VF2 which I never like that much.
    A built in viewfinder would be great though.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    for me, the T grab my attention with the wrong reason. the moment they start putting audi-design / porshce-design, i cross the camera straight off my list....

    EDITED: sorry in advance if i offended any T supporters.
    Last edited by UHDR; 18th June 2015 at 03:08.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by UHDR View Post
    for me, the T grab my attention with the wrong reason. the moment they start putting audi-design / porshce-design, i cross the camera straight off my list....

    EDITED: sorry in advance if i offended any T supporters.
    does that mean you mainly choose a camera depending on the brand who did the design?

    But I think I see your point and I agree that Leica is marketing too much the luxury factor instead of the funtion and the optical quality.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Price and value are huge dealbreakers. The T needs to be prices in line or slightly above the competition so sub $2000 body (check) and lenses in the $800-2500 price range and not much higher. My exact reaction (in my head) to the price of the 18-55 kit zoom was "F*** YOU!!!"
    HI Tre
    I've just found this thread, and I really sympathise with Tom's point of view

    The lenses are really good - much better than the kit lenses of either Fuji or µ43 - and also much better than (for instance) the SZ 'kit lens' for the Sony A7. As Tom says - the interface is simple and with thought to the configuration it works really well.

    A full frame camera with equivalent lenses is going to be MUCH bigger - there isn't a way around this - it's becoming increasingly clear when we see the sizes of the Sony Zoom lenses - and they aren't that great anyway. the 11-23 lens is really stunning - right up with the Olympus pro class zooms (but much smaller)

    Actually, I don't believe that the T experiment is over - so I hope and believe that Tom will get is wish of a much faster body - like him I'd like to see weather sealing and a built in EVF - but I hope they keep the interface - it works, and when you get used to it it's surprisingly intuitive.

    The PROBLEM with the T was that it's too damned slow - I really believe this to have been the only reason it wasn't embraced by photographers - the black out time with the EVF, the shot to shot times with the internal memory - the AF speed - THESE are the reasons it's been unpopular (incidentally, firmware improvements have helped with some of these issues, but it's still too slow).

    It's noticeable that the Q has been welcomed with open arms, despite being fixed lens and much more expensive, partly perhaps because it's full frame, but quite honestly I think it's because it's a combination of decent IQ and excellent performance.

    I reckon a T body with equivalent performance and a 24mp sensor would do really well . . . and this time the lenses do exist and the firmware is more mature.

    Looking back through the images I've taken with it over the last couple of years . . . they hold up really well, and they really are nicer than the µ43 images.

    Full Frame is all the rage at the moment (for obvious reasons) - but I'm not convinced it'll stay that way as sensor technology improves - For the size and weight of a Nikon D750 and a 28-70 f2.8 I can carry a complete T outfit . . .

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    , I am curious if there actually is a way around the size matter. Leica has accompished this with the M series (small, RF lenses, and a sensor capable of handling the light ray angle issue through microlenses and some software correction). The fact that my Sony A7s can also handle the majority of my M lenses (save the 28 cron, which is a ghastly performer on non M bodies) suggests that there may be an option for compact full frame bodies in the same vein, with the proper sensor (and algorithithms/6 bit coding adjustments). I would love Leica to design a "T" type camera or Q type camera with a full frame sensor, and the appropriate sensor and algorithms to handle M lenses. An update of the Tri-elmar (either as a true zoom or step zoom) would be fantastic and compact....especially given today's cameras high ISO capacity.

    With the Q now availabe as a demonstration of Leica's technical prowess, and with a lens that isn't too large, why not extend the concept into the T. I see cost as a primary deterrent, and if the T system is to be sucessful, it needs its lenses to be priced accordingly. That, or move to a full frame design, with the relative cost expectations of a full frame body.


    In my mind, Leica can now really harness their tech and relationships with other manufacturers to design a full frame body with compact full frame lenses. Maybe rebadge the current M lenses with AF technology used in the Q's 28 mm lens...this may be eventually with the M system turns into, with lenses capable of both MF and AF (if a digital RF can be appropriately designed and close to the optical version, which seems reasonable givne the pixel count and quality of the Q's EVF)....
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    I'm not sure which direction Leica will take in the near future but onservatively if I had to venture a guess, it will develope either a successor to the M240 with built in hybrid OVF/ EVF finder or more likely diverge the M line into two distinct digital rangefinders.

    The first would be the successor to the M240 that first and formost keep its trditional optical rangefinder and manual focus lenses but incorporate advances in the body as they have always done with each successive generation. The 2nd digital M would be as Ashwin has suggested, a new body incorporating AF capabilty with a new line of interchangeable M mount AF lenses, a built in hybrid rangefinder, and a host of modern day electronics and metering to round out the package.

    Just as the Leica film M bodies continue to be produced along with the current digital M bodies, so would these two digital M rangefinder lines. As long as both sell in sufficient numbers, each line will continue to be developed.

    In the interm, I could first see the Q line developing into am interchangeable af lens system but with its own line of non M lenses but with optional adapter for MF M lenses that can be used with this model of Q body. Onviously this line of Q would be more compact than the M rangefinders mentioned above. Unfortunately I see the T eventually being discontinued. Oh look, my crystal ball is beginning to fog up .

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    [...] I see the T eventually being discontinued. Oh look, my crystal ball is beginning to fog up .

    Dave (D&A)
    No problem. Everybody has one I can see the Q evolving into a fully digital M. The T in the present state needs strong updates in the usability department and the lens selection. Great that Karbe goes for perfect quality over max aperture. Not that I don't understand, where he is coming from, but the broad market success of that idea was already demonstrated with the Vario.
    Last edited by Photon42; 2nd July 2015 at 12:30.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI Tre
    I've just found this thread, and I really sympathise with Tom's point of view

    The lenses are really good - much better than the kit lenses of either Fuji or µ43 - and also much better than (for instance) the SZ 'kit lens' for the Sony A7. As Tom says - the interface is simple and with thought to the configuration it works really well.

    A full frame camera with equivalent lenses is going to be MUCH bigger - there isn't a way around this - it's becoming increasingly clear when we see the sizes of the Sony Zoom lenses - and they aren't that great anyway. the 11-23 lens is really stunning - right up with the Olympus pro class zooms (but much smaller)

    Actually, I don't believe that the T experiment is over - so I hope and believe that Tom will get is wish of a much faster body - like him I'd like to see weather sealing and a built in EVF - but I hope they keep the interface - it works, and when you get used to it it's surprisingly intuitive.

    The PROBLEM with the T was that it's too damned slow - I really believe this to have been the only reason it wasn't embraced by photographers - the black out time with the EVF, the shot to shot times with the internal memory - the AF speed - THESE are the reasons it's been unpopular (incidentally, firmware improvements have helped with some of these issues, but it's still too slow).

    It's noticeable that the Q has been welcomed with open arms, despite being fixed lens and much more expensive, partly perhaps because it's full frame, but quite honestly I think it's because it's a combination of decent IQ and excellent performance.

    I reckon a T body with equivalent performance and a 24mp sensor would do really well . . . and this time the lenses do exist and the firmware is more mature.

    Looking back through the images I've taken with it over the last couple of years . . . they hold up really well, and they really are nicer than the µ43 images.

    Full Frame is all the rage at the moment (for obvious reasons) - but I'm not convinced it'll stay that way as sensor technology improves - For the size and weight of a Nikon D750 and a 28-70 f2.8 I can carry a complete T outfit . . .
    Not going to make this a Sony v. Leica thing at all but the problem Leica has with the T is the same problem Hasselblad has with the "Celestial" cameras. Pushing the luxury factor above the image quality - that I don't doubt is decent for a walk around lens but not great in terms of a professionally priced zoom. As for Sony FE zooms... I've owned a couple and didn't like any of them except the 70-200 so you won't get a pro Sony FE zoom argument from me at all (although they are ranked as well as the Canon and Nikon pro f/4 offerings.) As for the Full Frame primes most are decently sized (save the 35 Distagon FE which is physically large but not heavy) and excellently balanced. Sony's lens lineup is growing and the sensor technology is second to none... I don't see why anyone would choose a Leica T over this personally. Some people poke at the Sony FE for lack of lenses but the Leica T has 3 slow zooms and a prime AFAIK... Not very reassuring to invest in that for the price they're asking.

    Regarding the Fuji lenses I gotta say that they are pretty damn good and the bodies are constantly being improved. The cameras and lenses are priced decently. They possibly have the best quality of lenses across the board in mirrorless IMO but the sensors don't play as well with RAW converters as Bayer sensors. Outside of this fact I don't see why one would choose the Leica T over the Fuji XT-1 or the rumored X-Pro 2. As for Micro 4/3 they have the most complete lens lineup and the most mature bodies as it applies to functionality. I don't see why anyone would choose the Leica T over this option.

    We are comparing apples to oranges when compared against Leica M primes and Leica T zooms to Sony FE though. One doesn't have autofocus and the other isn't Full Frame. I don't think that the Leica T is bad I just don't know where it fits in the market. Leica needs to choose to do luxury systems that truly compete in their segments (S, X, Q, or rumored interchangeable lens mount Q) or offer something completely different (like the M.) Crop sensors are always going to be compared to the cropped competition and technology is at a point to where it's just not enough that it's a Leica (unless it's a M that offers heritage and "the rangefinder experience.")

    Just my opinion though although I might be in the minority in this discussion. It wasn't just the sluggish speed for me like many suggest. It was the entire concept and execution of the product that soured me on the Leica T when I handled it. I realize that I'm probably not the market they are after though. I realized that outside the M line (not the M240 though) and the S nothing else that Leica produces interests me in any serious manner... I don't know that they will make anything that does for a competitive price to the competition either in the 35mm world...
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Just my opinion though although I might be in the minority in this discussion. It wasn't just the sluggish speed for me like many suggest. It was the entire concept and execution of the product that soured me on the Leica T when I handled it. I realize that I'm probably not the market they are after though. I realized that outside the M line (not the M240 though) and the S nothing else that Leica produces interests me in any serious manner... I don't know that they will make anything that does for a competitive price to the competition either in the 35mm world...
    Well Tre - anyone looking for cost/performance benefits really isn't going to look at Leica (any more than they will look at Audi or BMW for their car). Of course, if you don't like the concept and execution of the T, then there isn't any redemption. But I still reckon the lenses (and IQ) are really excellent - and definitely competitive with Fuji, and obviously better than the Sony APSc lenses - and the image quality of the T really is better than any of the µ43 cameras/lenses. So I still think it hinges around the camera performance (and in terms of AF and shot to shot times the T definitely is not up with the competition).

    But it does make great images - and in the spirit of the OP - I hope the T system carries on, with a body which makes the most of those excellent lenses.

    best

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Lets forget about the polishing thing and about the sensor size. Lets say just take a Leica T and shoot and then look at images.
    I bet many people would be surprised about the IQ.
    By the way I dont find the current T that slow. Also, if you look through the T viewfinder and then through the Q viewfinder you might be surprized, one of the too gives you a bigger/wider view, and it is not the one of the Q. (I still would prefer the integrated viewfinder)
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well Tre - anyone looking for cost/performance benefits really isn't going to look at Leica (any more than they will look at Audi or BMW for their car). Of course, if you don't like the concept and execution of the T, then there isn't any redemption. But I still reckon the lenses (and IQ) are really excellent - and definitely competitive with Fuji, and obviously better than the Sony APSc lenses - and the image quality of the T really is better than any of the µ43 cameras/lenses. So I still think it hinges around the camera performance (and in terms of AF and shot to shot times the T definitely is not up with the competition).

    But it does make great images - and in the spirit of the OP - I hope the T system carries on, with a body which makes the most of those excellent lenses.

    best
    +1. What Jono said

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well Tre - anyone looking for cost/performance benefits really isn't going to look at Leica (any more than they will look at Audi or BMW for their car). Of course, if you don't like the concept and execution of the T, then there isn't any redemption. But I still reckon the lenses (and IQ) are really excellent - and definitely competitive with Fuji, and obviously better than the Sony APSc lenses - and the image quality of the T really is better than any of the µ43 cameras/lenses. So I still think it hinges around the camera performance (and in terms of AF and shot to shot times the T definitely is not up with the competition).

    But it does make great images - and in the spirit of the OP - I hope the T system carries on, with a body which makes the most of those excellent lenses.

    best
    if we are being honest though there aren't many system cameras that don't have excellent IQ. I don't deny that the T isn't capable of this as well but no product that isn't a commercial success is going to be continued or invested in long term.

    It's just my opinion but Leica missed the commercial mark with the price point of the lenses. If that means they need to design them in Germany and manufacture them in Asia then that's what they should do to hit a target market price and be commercially successful. The body price was spot on IMO and to my surprise being priced in line with FF mirror less. The glass pricing is waaaaay off. No matter the premium optics used in manufacture kit lens specs at premium lens price is a hard sell.

    Look at the Sony 55FE... The only saving grace was the Zeiss like look (and label) to the lens but everyone was comparing it to the nifty 50's of Canon/Nikon in relationship to specs and price. That's not to say I don't expect a Leica premium but $2000 for a kit zoom is asinine... Even for Leica.
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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    One of the reasons I don't see the T system evolving into a future M (as suggested in a previous post), is simply that the system and lenses are designed for APS size sensors. The Q system on the other hand is full frame and can easily become an interchangeable AF M mount system that could also accept manual focus M lenses.

    Even if the mount has to be different than a M mount on a interchangeable Q lens AF system, it still seems possible traditional M lenses can easily be adapted for use by 1st mounting an adapter. Although immediate modela of the Q will probably be fixed lens, I suspect somesort of interchamgeable mount system will evolve from it at some point.

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    Re: Please Leica DONT let the T dye!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    With all respect for the new Q camera - I do hope that Leica will use some of its technology (fast AF/IS/fast response) and put it in a new T body.

    I understand the T has not been very succesfull despite I believe it is still not a bad camera and the lenses are excellent as is the IQ.
    I think one of the biggest faults was the marketing focusing too much on the luxury factor and not enough on the simple user interface and excellent lenses. Also the first firmware was too slow.

    I would still not want to exchange my T+lenses for a Q, because I enjoy the flexibility a lot to either use the fast Summicron 23mm, or the UWA-Zoom , or the standard zoom, or even Tele if needed.

    Now we could hope for an version with interchangable lenses based on the Q, but how big would these become? I think the should not give up the dx-sensor based line beside their FF products.
    Leicas without a viewfinder make no sense to me. The APS-C sized sensor is/was ok but the slow and expensive lenses coupled with the lack of an OVF or EVF make cameras like the T and X-Vario forgetable.

    The Q seems like an instant legend.
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