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Thread: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

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    Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Hello people I would appreciate your thoughts based on your experiences as I am deciding on whether to buy a 240M-P or not specifically based on whether I will get an appreciable improvement (hopefully) when using wide angle lenses.

    In simple language - will the 240-P give me better edge to edge performance when using wides over the M9? If so how much better? My end goal is always large prints - produced with the least possible post processing and correction - I am a truly lazy photographer.

    I have no interest in hearing about the features that the M240-P delivers apart from its performance capabilities versus M9 using wides - as I am a troglodyte type photographer who doesn't use video/high ISO/wifi or breakfast cereal microwaving functionality at all. I just want the best file I can get and I would buy an M240 IF it delivered a better wide angle performance than my M9 with wide angle lenses. By better I mean edge to edge file quality for printing up to 36 inches.

    Your experience with any M mount lenses would be appreciated - and by wide I mean I mean 21-24mm focal lengths. As a supplementary question, I would be keen to know if my 28 cron or 35 lux - were better served on a n M240. If you have specific recommendations regarding lenses that would be great.

    Thanks
    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Hi Pete

    I'm not one for pixel peeping so I wont comment on edge to edge performance, despite having owned an M9 and now an M240. I will comment on composition since you want to limit pp/corrections. Using the 240 and evf with wideangles is a huge step change from the M9.

    I use a Zeiss 21 2.8 and composing is superb, as is its performance. Incidentally I also have the 35fle and I love the way it draws on the 240 but I was never really enamoured with it on the M9. Not sure why, just my experience.

    Good luck with your decision.

    Mike
    http://mikewoods.zenfolio.com/
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...
    In simple language - will the 240-P give me better edge to edge performance when using wides over the M9? If so how much better? ...
    Your experience with any M mount lenses would be appreciated - and by wide I mean I mean 21-24mm focal lengths. As a supplementary question, I would be keen to know if my 28 cron or 35 lux - were better served on a n M240. ...
    I can only comment on what I have experience with, and I'm rarely micro-inspecting edge to edge performance. I've been using the Elmar-M 24mm f/3.8 ASPH and Summilux 35mm f/1.4 v2 on the M-P and find them to both produce outstanding results, noticeably better performance than what I was getting on the M9 with the 'Lux; the Elmar 24 I purchased after I bought the M-P.

    G
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    I agree with Mike on the EVF benefits of getting exact framing with wides. BENEFIT 1

    I had both M9 and M240. Kept the M9 as a back up and then realized I was never using it. So I traded it up to a second M240. Have a chrome and black version. For wides I have a 18mm Zeiss, 21mm Leica F3.4 Asph, 24 F2.8 ASPH and 28 Summicron ASPH. The 21 seems the sharpest from wide open, but it is starting at F3.4. The 28 sharpens up a bit at the very sides till F4 then is sharp edge to edge for me. The 18mm has colour bleeding at both sides, one side more than the other. Setting it to be coded as 21mm non ASPH does the best job of almost completely eliminating the colour shift problem.

    The 24 is very slightly soft at corners at F2.8 and then sharp F4 on. And always sharp in the middle.

    My experience is that they all show similar sharpness sides and corners on both M9 and M240. However the M240 seems to be better/improved with the colour shift problems using the 18mm Zeiss F4. BENEFIT 2

    So given your criteria above, it seems you are really asking about the microlens effectiveness of the M9 versus the M240. They both seem about the same to me, but the M240 appears to have a better lens coding correction for my copy of the Zeiss 18mm.

    Also if they are equal in most respects, then in theory the 24MP sensor of the M240 will give you a better 36 inch print. My printer Epson 3880 does up to 25 inches on sheet paper and it looks excellent edge to edge printed with stopped down 1 or 2 stops on any of the above lenses. BENEFIT 3

    Also the M240 rangefinder if fully Leica specs adjusted seems more accurate. I know it is less critical on wides versus a super fast tele, but all the same it is nicer to have. BENEFIT 4

    The last one I can think of is even at low ISO if you are lifting shadows in bright sunlight or fixing corner brightness wide open, you can use the extra ISO/lower noise performance of the M240. BENEFIT 5

    I know you said it is not a criteria, but the overall feel and performance (except size and weight) for me is night and day and makes the M240 more fun.

    all the best,

    Dave
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Woods View Post
    Hi Pete

    I'm not one for pixel peeping so I wont comment on edge to edge performance, despite having owned an M9 and now an M240. I will comment on composition since you want to limit pp/corrections. Using the 240 and evf with wideangles is a huge step change from the M9.

    I use a Zeiss 21 2.8 and composing is superb, as is its performance. Incidentally I also have the 35fle and I love the way it draws on the 240 but I was never really enamoured with it on the M9. Not sure why, just my experience.

    Good luck with your decision.

    Mike
    Thanks Mike I don't need an EVF for anything really - however your comment on 35lux is interesting to me, what do you mean by "the way it 'draws'".. in film days teh 35lux was my second most used lens and I never quite liked it on my M9 despite upgrading to latest version...

    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I can only comment on what I have experience with, and I'm rarely micro-inspecting edge to edge performance. I've been using the Elmar-M 24mm f/3.8 ASPH and Summilux 35mm f/1.4 v2 on the M-P and find them to both produce outstanding results, noticeably better performance than what I was getting on the M9 with the 'Lux; the Elmar 24 I purchased after I bought the M-P.

    G
    Thanks Godfrey - again I would be interested in some expansion on 'noticeably better performance' if you are able...as for micro inspecting edge to edge performance - it all depends on subject matter of course but I have had awful experience with trying Leica wides on an Sony A7R(yes I am now failiar with all the technical rasons why and no I wont be changing digi chip covers or trusting GAS types gushing love -in festival commentary on its newer version ) and don't wish to waste my money again...hence my question I guess...(some posters have publicly decried wide angle performance on CMOS M as well as on CCD M9 as far as mushy detail goes - to the extent that they have exited M system...) most of my large work is large format or MFD back on technical camera anyway - but I am testing the experience of people using their snapshot camera Leica and wides with this discussion...

    Thanks
    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    I agree with Mike on the EVF benefits of getting exact framing with wides. BENEFIT 1

    I had both M9 and M240. Kept the M9 as a back up and then realized I was never using it. So I traded it up to a second M240. Have a chrome and black version. For wides I have a 18mm Zeiss, 21mm Leica F3.4 Asph, 24 F2.8 ASPH and 28 Summicron ASPH. The 21 seems the sharpest from wide open, but it is starting at F3.4. The 28 sharpens up a bit at the very sides till F4 then is sharp edge to edge for me. The 18mm has colour bleeding at both sides, one side more than the other. Setting it to be coded as 21mm non ASPH does the best job of almost completely eliminating the colour shift problem.

    The 24 is very slightly soft at corners at F2.8 and then sharp F4 on. And always sharp in the middle.

    My experience is that they all show similar sharpness sides and corners on both M9 and M240. However the M240 seems to be better/improved with the colour shift problems using the 18mm Zeiss F4. BENEFIT 2

    So given your criteria above, it seems you are really asking about the microlens effectiveness of the M9 versus the M240. They both seem about the same to me, but the M240 appears to have a better lens coding correction for my copy of the Zeiss 18mm.

    Also if they are equal in most respects, then in theory the 24MP sensor of the M240 will give you a better 36 inch print. My printer Epson 3880 does up to 25 inches on sheet paper and it looks excellent edge to edge printed with stopped down 1 or 2 stops on any of the above lenses. BENEFIT 3

    Also the M240 rangefinder if fully Leica specs adjusted seems more accurate. I know it is less critical on wides versus a super fast tele, but all the same it is nicer to have. BENEFIT 4

    The last one I can think of is even at low ISO if you are lifting shadows in bright sunlight or fixing corner brightness wide open, you can use the extra ISO/lower noise performance of the M240. BENEFIT 5

    I know you said it is not a criteria, but the overall feel and performance (except size and weight) for me is night and day and makes the M240 more fun.

    all the best,

    Dave
    Thanks Dave - I hear you re better rangefinder and thanks for the detail on the specific lens performances you quote- interesting that you say that the lenses seem to sharpen up at f4 - but that as far as you are concerned edge to edge performance is similar between both cameras...personally I have always been disappointed with the M9 and wides for anything except snap shot fun and was hoping that the latest incarnation of the camera would evidence significant improvement for more purposeful work...

    I am leaving the non file benefits out of my decision making process - but thanks for the specificity of your response.

    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Just to help illustrate a bit.Click image for larger version. 

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    Here is a sample of a M9 and 21 SEM DNG file converted to jpeg with no sharpening etc. Just saved a corner crop and center crop. The twigs in the bottom left hand corner are very sharp for a wide angle in my opinion. Like all M files they do sharpen up very well in unsharp mask, but these are untouched to show you the starting point. Anyway, M9 is cheaper used and it does well in my opinion.

    Not sure how well this translates when displaying them here, it seems to upsize my crops a bit, and downsized my whole picture view, but the idea is there.

    regards,
    Dave
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS View Post
    Just to help illustrate a bit.
    Here is a sample of a M9 and 21 SEM DNG file converted to jpeg with no sharpening etc. Just saved a corner crop and center crop. The twigs in the bottom left hand corner are very sharp for a wide angle in my opinion. Like all M files they do sharpen up very well in unsharp mask, but these are untouched to show you the starting point. Anyway, M9 is cheaper used and it does well in my opinion.

    Not sure how well this translates when displaying them here, it seems to upsize my crops a bit, and downsized my whole picture view, but the idea is there.

    regards,
    Dave
    Again - thanks Dave - yep the M9 makes a decent file alright - the question I am asking - is the 240 better? -

    Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    At base ISO, no.
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    The M[240] brings 24 MPx to the table. I've taken a few 21SEM shots to 75 cm wide, and I think it helps. I'll dig in the files for a sample.

    I shot a multi-year project starting with the M9 and 21SX, which had occasional problem with CA at the edges, a lens problem not the camera. Then moved to 21SEM on the M9 and finished with 21SEM on the M240. All did what I wanted and were effective when shown large, but the last were the best in terms of detail across the field.

    scott
    Last edited by scott kirkpatrick; 15th August 2015 at 02:34.

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thanks Godfrey - again I would be interested in some expansion on 'noticeably better performance' if you are able...as for micro inspecting edge to edge performance - it all depends on subject matter of course but I have had awful experience with trying Leica wides on an Sony A7R(yes I am now failiar with all the technical rasons why and no I wont be changing digi chip covers or trusting GAS types gushing love -in festival commentary on its newer version ) and don't wish to waste my money again...hence my question I guess...(some posters have publicly decried wide angle performance on CMOS M as well as on CCD M9 as far as mushy detail goes - to the extent that they have exited M system...) most of my large work is large format or MFD back on technical camera anyway - but I am testing the experience of people using their snapshot camera Leica and wides with this discussion...
    I had a Sony A7 for a year and a half and had good results with it, but not with Leica RF wides in general. It worked best with Leica R and Nikkor wides, and even they were a bit challenged at corners and edges with the 18, 19, 20, and 24mm focal lengths. My feeling is to stick to the dedicated lenses with these types of bodies at the short focal length extremes for best results; like you, I choose not to get into the new model GAS fest or camera modification game. I ultimately found working with the Sony not to my liking so I sold it.

    But back to Leica ... I find the M-P delivers less moire, less corner/edge darkening, less corner/edge artifacts and smearing, and some reduction in color shifting compared to the M9. Resolution is up by a modest but noticeable amount. On the rendering side, the M-P produces much better white balance for JPEGs, much better (near finish quality) B&W JPEGs, and the viewfinder/rangefinder is noticeably easier to use and seems more accurate. Beyond the imaging characteristics, I wasn't all that thrilled with the M9. It seemed unresponsive and awkward to use a lot of the time. The M-P feels as responsive if not more so than my M4-2.

    Basically: I considered selling out of Leica M gear for some time with the M9; I nearly put it on the market at least four times. With the M-P in hand, I feel as delighted with it as I am with the M4-2. It is now the camera I grab when I want to go shooting most of the time.

    G

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Thought I posted this earlier, but I must have forgotten to push the last button. I've shot mostly the new SX28 on M240 recently. Here is an example. Corners are fine. The sides of the frame were very shadowed and were pulled up in COne but no color shift appears to my eyes:

    L1003059 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

    click on the picture twice to see a full resolution original, unsharpened jpeg.

    scott
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    I find composing for wides with the M-P easier for me. However, the EVF is what I use for composition now with the M-P versus an OVF with the M9. Parallax issues are eliminated by using the EVF for me where I get what I see. Many shots with the M9 came out ill framed due to this issue and not so with the M-P. I print mostly 16x20 and sometimes larger and find the M-P files more flexible for my needs. I shoot DNG only and as such any true RAW files needs PP massaging as you must know.

    As for lenses, I use the 18 a lot, 21 often, 28 a lot, 35 a lot, etc.I do not pixel peep per se and do not care about internet postings where a 6MP camera would work just fine. I often stitch files and as such want large file sizes for eventual cropping needs. I you stitch you'll know what I mean.

    Most of the following examples were taken with the 18 or 21 and slightly cropped to my liking.


    Louis Foubare: Making Every Minute Count « The Leica Camera
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Thought I posted this earlier, but I must have forgotten to push the last button. I've shot mostly the new SX28 on M240 recently. Here is an example. Corners are fine. The sides of the frame were very shadowed and were pulled up in COne but no color shift appears to my eyes:

    L1003059 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

    click on the picture twice to see a full resolution original, unsharpened jpeg.

    scott
    Scott, it's set on private mode. I would like to see the full-res of this pic. I'm still going back and forth to see if I really want this lens . Thank you.

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    At base ISO, no.
    CCD needs fat light more than CMOS...

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I had a Sony A7 for a year and a half and had good results with it, but not with Leica RF wides in general. It worked best with Leica R and Nikkor wides, and even they were a bit challenged at corners and edges with the 18, 19, 20, and 24mm focal lengths. My feeling is to stick to the dedicated lenses with these types of bodies at the short focal length extremes for best results; like you, I choose not to get into the new model GAS fest or camera modification game. I ultimately found working with the Sony not to my liking so I sold it.

    But back to Leica ... I find the M-P delivers less moire, less corner/edge darkening, less corner/edge artifacts and smearing, and some reduction in color shifting compared to the M9. Resolution is up by a modest but noticeable amount. On the rendering side, the M-P produces much better white balance for JPEGs, much better (near finish quality) B&W JPEGs, and the viewfinder/rangefinder is noticeably easier to use and seems more accurate. Beyond the imaging characteristics, I wasn't all that thrilled with the M9. It seemed unresponsive and awkward to use a lot of the time. The M-P feels as responsive if not more so than my M4-2.

    Basically: I considered selling out of Leica M gear for some time with the M9; I nearly put it on the market at least four times. With the M-P in hand, I feel as delighted with it as I am with the M4-2. It is now the camera I grab when I want to go shooting most of the time.

    G
    Godfrey, I'm happy with my SonyA7R - as long as I use Sony lenses - sure I have a Sony to M adaptor- but I get the same file from M9 using 35/50/70/90 lenses and worse files when using 28/21...don't get all the angst about shutter this and that problems with the Sony tbh - but then again anyone who shoots tech cameras or MF clunkers is probably used to a loud shutter ...

    well you are one who says that less problems with wides on 240 than M9 ..so that is a different input

    Thanks
    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Thought I posted this earlier, but I must have forgotten to push the last button. I've shot mostly the new SX28 on M240 recently. Here is an example. Corners are fine. The sides of the frame were very shadowed and were pulled up in COne but no color shift appears to my eyes:

    L1003059 by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

    click on the picture twice to see a full resolution original, unsharpened jpeg.

    scott
    Hi Scott and thanks for your reply - although I have to say I don't know what an SX28 or the other Leica lenses are that you refer to? Mate I am an old school Leica shooter so I own Summilux/Summicron/ Elmar/Elmarit named lenses...LOL
    In the photo I am looking at what F/stop and what focus point at what ISO?
    I see definite softness/smearing in the right hand side wall bricks going backwards from the viewer - so that is why I ask what f/stop and where was the focus point.
    Like all lenses you'd expect some vignetting at the edges - as illustrated in your pic - doesn't bother me in the least...

    What your pic does show is a nice clean file and good resolution at what I assume was your planar point of focus - dead set in the middle of the diner. I don't make a lot of these type of shots- what I look for is good 'depth' ie how does a lens draw in three dimensions does it give me a feeling of volume to go along with the the light I chase....OR shot wide open do I get the POP factor and separation without the harsh contrast edge...

    Why I prefer Leica to Zeiss lenses - Zeiss can boost their edge contrast as much as they like - but that type of drawing is clunky compared to the baby bum fluff roll off of a good Leica lens. But I veer off topic.

    Thanks for your input - much appreciated

    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I find composing for wides with the M-P easier for me. However, the EVF is what I use for composition now with the M-P versus an OVF with the M9. Parallax issues are eliminated by using the EVF for me where I get what I see. Many shots with the M9 came out ill framed due to this issue and not so with the M-P. I print mostly 16x20 and sometimes larger and find the M-P files more flexible for my needs. I shoot DNG only and as such any true RAW files needs PP massaging as you must know.

    As for lenses, I use the 18 a lot, 21 often, 28 a lot, 35 a lot, etc.I do not pixel peep per se and do not care about internet postings where a 6MP camera would work just fine. I often stitch files and as such want large file sizes for eventual cropping needs. I you stitch you'll know what I mean.

    Most of the following examples were taken with the 18 or 21 and slightly cropped to my liking.


    Louis Foubare: Making Every Minute Count « The Leica Camera
    WOW Louis what I site you have there! A lot of magnificent shots for me to look at enjoy - so thanks for posting and aren't I lucky to have figured out your link to photos!

    I understand the slightly cropped idea btw - don't we all do it? LOL
    For the minimal landscape work I do do- I go to the trouble of setting up a tripod and a MFD backed tech camera - two reasons, firstly I get the resolution I need from the backs and my Rodenstock or Schneiders and secondly - until recent times - 35mm didnt promise or deliver the megapixel count or quality required to do larger prints or have enough guts in the raw file to play with..secondly , shift tilt swing for one shot or stitching and much easier nodal point shooting... times are changing and yes I am wondering if the 240 and its 25 don't give me a better option for a more simple system...I am definitely excited about the small tech cameras that Arca and Cambo are releasing to mount 35mm cameras..who needs copal shutters lol

    Thanks again
    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Peter
    Did not pay enough attention to your comments to realize you are not a landscape kind of guy. Sorry. For street I love the 35 FLE first and foremost followed by either the 50 or if needed the 28. Had the cron but now like the Elmarit 28/2.8 for its size. Friends say the new 28 Lux is dynamite, but a bit pricy. I have the 21 lux and very much like it for certain street uses. This is but one example.

    Attachment 94213

    I love street and find the challenges enormous, but that's why I like it so much.


    http://blog.leica-camera.com/photogr...t-photography/

    I recently sold my P45+ and V setup to migrate to the 645Z and have not regretted the move, but I always come back to a Leica either M-P or M246. I am getting nice landscape results from old glass on the M246-especially my old 90/2.8 225g Tele-Elmarit even though I often use the 90/2.8 Elmarit-M more often on the M-P. I will try the Sumarron 35/2.8 next which should lend itself to good street shooting, but perhaps the silver look could attract attention.
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Godfrey, I'm happy with my SonyA7R - as long as I use Sony lenses - sure I have a Sony to M adaptor- but I get the same file from M9 using 35/50/70/90 lenses and worse files when using 28/21...don't get all the angst about shutter this and that problems with the Sony tbh - but then again anyone who shoots tech cameras or MF clunkers is probably used to a loud shutter ...

    well you are one who says that less problems with wides on 240 than M9 ..so that is a different input
    The shutter sound wasn't the issue with the A7 for me. The overall awkwardness and feel of the camera bugged me, and the viewfinder was only "pretty good", not great like the Olympus E-M1. I just didn't like it all that much.

    Regarding the bolded bit above, I have less problems with the wide lenses I have used (Color Skopar 21, 28, 35, Ultron 28/2, Nikkor 18/3.5 AI-S, Leica Summilux 35 v2) on the M-P than I had using the same lenses on the M9. That's all I've got and had to work with, I can't answer for any others. The Elmar-M 24 in particular I didn't have when I had the M9, but it performs beautifully on the M-P; I've since sold the Color Skopar 21 and Ultron 28.

    G

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Hi Scott and thanks for your reply - although I have to say I don't know what an SX28 or the other Leica lenses are that you refer to? Mate I am an old school Leica shooter so I own Summilux/Summicron/ Elmar/Elmarit named lenses...LOL
    In the photo I am looking at what F/stop and what focus point at what ISO?
    I see definite softness/smearing in the right hand side wall bricks going backwards from the viewer - so that is why I ask what f/stop and where was the focus point.

    Thanks for your input - much appreciated

    -Pete
    Sorry, posted in haste. This is shot with the recently introduced 28 Summilux, which has floating elements for close work and all sorts of Karbe team magic. I shot at f/2.8 and focussed on the lettering on the walls of the diner (or perhaps on the sign on top which is a few feet
    further back. At 2.8 I wasn't worried about the deep bricks, but I wanted to catch the signs and balloons and the sidewalk texture in the foreground, and it did that pretty well.

    SX for Summilux and SEM for SuperElmar are common shorthand for the newest 21, 24, 28 lenses, and the 18 is called a SuperElmar as well, although it renders more sloppily than the 21 and 24.

    scott

    PS: If anyone knows how to make the original as well as the web-sized version of a shot publlc in flickr, please let me know. You can't test links from your own id with flickr, as it lets me do things that an outside viewer will not be allowed. I load groups of pics into the "camera roll" and then select from them to form albums. Albums are supposed to be public, no?

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Peter
    Did not pay enough attention to your comments to realize you are not a landscape kind of guy. Sorry. For street I love the 35 FLE first and foremost followed by either the 50 or if needed the 28. Had the cron but now like the Elmarit 28/2.8 for its size. Friends say the new 28 Lux is dynamite, but a bit pricy. I have the 21 lux and very much like it for certain street uses. This is but one example.

    Attachment 94213

    I love street and find the challenges enormous, but that's why I like it so much.


    http://blog.leica-camera.com/photogr...t-photography/

    I recently sold my P45+ and V setup to migrate to the 645Z and have not regretted the move, but I always come back to a Leica either M-P or M246. I am getting nice landscape results from old glass on the M246-especially my old 90/2.8 225g Tele-Elmarit even though I often use the 90/2.8 Elmarit-M more often on the M-P. I will try the Sumarron 35/2.8 next which should lend itself to good street shooting, but perhaps the silver look could attract attention.
    Lovely picture, great light on both faces, and it makes the point about rendering a scene in depth -- it's not just about sharpness.

    BTW, when you were using the P45+ as a back on Hasselblad V's, did you try the SWC body? That's an awesome combination.

    scott
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Yes, I had the SWC and 503CW for the P45+ back. SWC was my go to landscape MF camera. Compact and stunning quality even in today's world.

    Regarding the image above I focused as fast as I could in the bench graffiti before the scene changed and one or both looked at me.
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    My Voigtlander 15mm v2 shows more magenta corners on my M240 compared to my old M9. But the liveview really helps with framing. I don't use my external VFs anymore.
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Yes, I had the SWC and 503CW for the P45+ back. SWC was my go to landscape MF camera. Compact and stunning quality even in today's world.

    Regarding the image above I focused as fast as I could in the bench graffiti before the scene changed and one or both looked at me.
    Interesting to hear your comments on the P45+ with a SWC.

    I have a P45 and have tried it on 2 copies of SWC's and in both cases the IQ at the centre to about 2/3rd's of the way out was fabulous, but the outer third of the image got quite soft. I have read elsewhere that the P45 sized sensor and the SWC weren't a good match, and my experience seemed to confirm that.

    I must say that I loved the compactness of the kit, it just felt so right for walk around street shooting, and on a medium format digital sensor…….very attractive

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Example of 'Lux 35 v2 on the M-P:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/27...tml#post655077

    This lens produces magic. :-)

    G

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Live view will change your life if you are using wide angle lenses, more so, if you wear glasses.

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Example of 'Lux 35 v2 on the M-P:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/27...tml#post655077

    This lens produces magic. :-)

    G
    Nice photograph Godfrey - don't know if the 'magic' you refer to is the subject matter/memories as much as the lens though ..?

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by jrp View Post
    Live view will change your life if you are using wide angle lenses, more so, if you wear glasses.
    Glad to hear you enjoy live view functionality but for me it isn't a big deal for hand held shooting - in fact more of a distraction in my experience!

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Seascape View Post
    Interesting to hear your comments on the P45+ with a SWC.

    I have a P45 and have tried it on 2 copies of SWC's and in both cases the IQ at the centre to about 2/3rd's of the way out was fabulous, but the outer third of the image got quite soft. I have read elsewhere that the P45 sized sensor and the SWC weren't a good match, and my experience seemed to confirm that.

    I must say that I loved the compactness of the kit, it just felt so right for walk around street shooting, and on a medium format digital sensor…….very attractive
    OT - but an Alpa + 35Schneider on a 30-40 megapixel back delivers better edge to edge performance than the equally sexy looking SWC combo To be expected though the Zeiss Biogon lens wasn't formulated for digital capture and teh inevitable scrutiny at pixel level...After 40 megapixels we enter the world of mucking around as far as the 35 or wider LF lenses go..Still - what a sexy combo eh?
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Example of 'Lux 35 v2 on the M-P:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/27...tml#post655077

    This lens produces magic. :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Nice photograph Godfrey - don't know if the 'magic' you refer to is the subject matter/memories as much as the lens though ..?
    In this technical discussion thread, I was referring to the way this lens renders out-of-focus vs in-focus elements of the scene. Wide open is a tiny bit soft and flarey, but at lens openings from f/2 to f/4 the rendering seems very sharp with tremendous dimensionality. At full resolution, subjects seem to be in a 3D space, to my eye.

    The subject matter/memories of this photo are vivid too, but I think the technical qualities of the lens' imaging are exceptional as well.

    G

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    I don't have experience with the M9, but I do have a good bit of experience shooting with wide and ultra wide angle lenses with the M240. The 35mmf2 ASPH 'cron and the 28mm f2.8 Elmarit are wonderful with the M240. The interesting thing is the results with the CV 24mm Color Snapshot and the CV 15mm F4.5... In B&W they wonderful from wide open to whatever step down you choose. Basically, set them properly and they are in focus from very close to infinity. With the EVF you can see exactly what is in the picture. Shooting in color is problematic because of the magenta fringing along the sides
    The M240 is quite good for wide angle shooting, particularly because of the LV option and the EVF. I sold my CV lenses because of the CA issues but I miss them, so I just pulled the trigger on a new CV 15mm f4.5 VIII presumably they have corrected the CA/magenta fringing issue. I hope so and will post photos as soon as I get it in my hands

    This was shot with the CV15mm f4.5 Super Wide Heliar

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by silver92b View Post
    I don't have experience with the M9, but I do have a good bit of experience shooting with wide and ultra wide angle lenses with the M240. The 35mmf2 ASPH 'cron and the 28mm f2.8 Elmarit are wonderful with the M240. The interesting thing is the results with the CV 24mm Color Snapshot and the CV 15mm F4.5... In B&W they wonderful from wide open to whatever step down you choose. Basically, set them properly and they are in focus from very close to infinity. With the EVF you can see exactly what is in the picture. Shooting in color is problematic because of the magenta fringing along the sides
    The M240 is quite good for wide angle shooting, particularly because of the LV option and the EVF. I sold my CV lenses because of the CA issues but I miss them, so I just pulled the trigger on a new CV 15mm f4.5 VIII presumably they have corrected the CA/magenta fringing issue. I hope so and will post photos as soon as I get it in my hands

    This was shot with the CV15mm f4.5 Super Wide Heliar

    Yes B&W removes a lot of colour issues for sure ( LOL) ...lovely photo btw , the newer elmarits were made for digital shooting much more than previous versions...my 28 cron is a bit smudy at edges on M9 and ( OT a lot smudgier on Sony)...good luck with your newer version CV...
    -Pete
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Hi Peter!

    Personally, for my style of "of the moment" photography verses more studied work like landscapes, I've never gotten along with a M and wide angle lenses beyond 28mm (maybe a 24mm using the outer edges of the viewfinder).

    I'm not a fan of VF appendages hanging off the M camera, electronic or otherwise … nor use of LV on a M240 LCD when handholding, (a M on a tripod is counter to the spirit of "of the moment" spontaneous M shooting IMHO).

    While I do have a M21/1.4 ASPH, I tend to use it on the Sony A7R using an adjustable Voigtlander adapter which allows much closer focus distances than the M. The A7R EVF does show the coverage … but the lens is hardly an optical technical tour d' force in the corners on that camera. Remains to be seen how it performs on the new a7R-II, but I'm not holding my breath. The A7R itself is okay, but the delay from "shoot to capture" makes it a non-choice for how I tend to shoot for the majority of the time.

    I now pretty much shoot exclusively with the M Monochrome … leaving color work to the S(006) … or my cell phone (which I carry when shooting the M Mono )

    BTW, I did test a M240 for a couple of weeks after selling my M9P in anticipation of the M240 … bad move on my part. Should have kept the M9P for the look and feel of the files which I never had a problem with. No foul meant toward the M240 and those who love it … I just never loved the files no matter how much I played with them.

    Maybe the Leica M320 will bring me back to a M color camera?

    If the Leica Q had been a 35/1.4 ASPH FLE lens, I may have jumped on it. 35mm is my most used M lens by a wide margin.

    - Marc

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Hi Peter!

    Personally, for my style of "of the moment" photography verses more studied work like landscapes, I've never gotten along with a M and wide angle lenses beyond 28mm (maybe a 24mm using the outer edges of the viewfinder).

    I'm not a fan of VF appendages hanging off the M camera, electronic or otherwise … nor use of LV on a M240 LCD when handholding, (a M on a tripod is counter to the spirit of "of the moment" spontaneous M shooting IMHO).

    While I do have a M21/1.4 ASPH, I tend to use it on the Sony A7R using an adjustable Voigtlander adapter which allows much closer focus distances than the M. The A7R EVF does show the coverage … but the lens is hardly an optical technical tour d' force in the corners on that camera. Remains to be seen how it performs on the new a7R-II, but I'm not holding my breath. The A7R itself is okay, but the delay from "shoot to capture" makes it a non-choice for how I tend to shoot for the majority of the time.

    I now pretty much shoot exclusively with the M Monochrome … leaving color work to the S(006) … or my cell phone (which I carry when shooting the M Mono )

    BTW, I did test a M240 for a couple of weeks after selling my M9P in anticipation of the M240 … bad move on my part. Should have kept the M9P for the look and feel of the files which I never had a problem with. No foul meant toward the M240 and those who love it … I just never loved the files no matter how much I played with them.

    Maybe the Leica M320 will bring me back to a M color camera?

    If the Leica Q had been a 35/1.4 ASPH FLE lens, I may have jumped on it. 35mm is my most used M lens by a wide margin.

    - Marc
    Hi Marc

    Glad to hear you like the 35 on the mono ( B&W hides a myriad of issues that these high resolution cameras bring up as far as colour goes for sure) - I have the original CCD version and it is my favourite snap shooter - saves all that mucking around in post - which to be quite frank bores me to tears...so many plug in formulaic ready made 'looks' that people use these days - when good light is free of charge? LOL

    Joking aside - give me fat light and pretty much any camera - and the sparkle is there - but wides in 35mm format are always problematic...was going through some old files - reorganising ( again) back-up to back-up - and was amazed at the colour I used to get from my original 1DS Canon DSLR - no other DSLR apart from the DMR delivered such nice files...hence my reluctance to part ways with the M9 which is a tad better - although harder work tbh.

    I wonder how people can hand hold 25+ megapixels tbh - unless you are shooting fast speed too easy to get fuzzy shots - the M9 18 is hard enough...maybe that is why peopel ar into teh high ISO thing - they can shoot faster speeds to nail a shot - but all higher ISO shots look flat to me - no pop.

    Anyway thanks for sharing some of your experience - long time Leica nut that you are! -

    -Pete
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    "I wonder how people can hand hold 25+ megapixels tbh"

    IBIS! With WATE. :-)
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Peter, I know exactly what you mean when I look back at color work with some older digital cameras. They may have fell short in some regards, but frankly those were rare instances in the scope of things.

    Truth be told, I never thought of the Leica M as a 35mm color solution anyway. I rarely shot color with a film M … probably did more color shots with the M8/M9 than 35 years worth of shooting with film Ms.

    BTW, I agree that ISOs over 800 or 1000 starts losing the magic pretty fast … except with the Monochrome.

    Good to see you on the forum.


    - Marc
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    As much as I love using my M9 I find accurate framing with wide angle lenses to be a PITA. What good is edge to edge performance without accurate framing? The M240 with EVF transformed critical framing and widened the scope of the M system. I can now shoot my architectural based work with an outfit that is a fraction of the heft and girth of the medium format outfit I used previously.



    It's changed my life
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    As much as I love using my M9 I find accurate framing with wide angle lenses to be a PITA. What good is edge to edge performance without accurate framing?
    What finders were you using? I was very silly at first and got a frankenfinder, which did not help me at all. But I shoot alot of UWA, so I bit the bullet, and got the ZI18 and ZI21 finders. I would rather frame with them than my A7.mod EVF.

    Next Step by unoh7, zm18 M9, at f/4 on the infinity stop.

    Anyway the Zeiss finders are off the chart. I also have a nice CV 28 finder, but it's a joke in comparision. If my frame is really critical, I will just chimp it. AKA the M9's "Still Warm" view LOL I've grown very fond of the M9's LCD, small, tough, and fine to check focus and frame.

    As M color: to my eye the newer M glass, Leica and Zeiss, is in a class by itself. SEM 21 and 28 cron are just sick in color.
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Seascape View Post
    Interesting to hear your comments on the P45+ with a SWC.

    I have a P45 and have tried it on 2 copies of SWC's and in both cases the IQ at the centre to about 2/3rd's of the way out was fabulous, but the outer third of the image got quite soft. I have read elsewhere that the P45 sized sensor and the SWC weren't a good match, and my experience seemed to confirm that.

    I must say that I loved the compactness of the kit, it just felt so right for walk around street shooting, and on a medium format digital sensor…….very attractive
    I shot for a while with the SWC/P45+ combo at a construction site. Here's one with concrete pouring down:

    CF000541test by scott kirkpatrick, on Flickr

    I found in good light, stopped down to 5.6 or better, I could always get a crisp image across the background, but frequently had blurry foreground details. After a while I figured out that the focus scale was rotated by about 1/8 to 1/4 inch. Correcting for that error helped quite a bit. But I finished the job with an M9 and 21SEM. Still it was fun to shoot with this ultimate scale-focused point-n-shoot.

    scott
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    As much as I love using my M9 I find accurate framing with wide angle lenses to be a PITA. What good is edge to edge performance without accurate framing? The M240 with EVF transformed critical framing and widened the scope of the M system. I can now shoot my architectural based work with an outfit that is a fraction of the heft and girth of the medium format outfit I used previously.



    It's changed my life
    Hi Keith I hear you re the MF gear...the 25megapixels that the new M delivers is tempting...would be good if it handled wides better than the M9 - as for accurate framing - that is why I want to have a wider view - so I CAN crop if required - same way I shoot my Alpa and Artec tech cameras...except with MF you have the benefit of lenses with image circles larger than the chip and better resolving power...which as you know gives you more room to muck around with...

    still I'm with you - I don't want to schlep all that tech MF gear around anymore ...and am not convinced about Sony as the lightweight solution..

    -Pete

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Hi Peter, Leica has done a very nice job with some of the new designs such as the 21 3.4 SEM, that in combination with the M240 give excellent results edge to edge.

    See attached image for 21mm SEM @ 5.6.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    Quote Originally Posted by Seascape View Post
    Interesting to hear your comments on the P45+ with a SWC.

    I have a P45 and have tried it on 2 copies of SWC's and in both cases the IQ at the centre to about 2/3rd's of the way out was fabulous, but the outer third of the image got quite soft. I have read elsewhere that the P45 sized sensor and the SWC weren't a good match, and my experience seemed to confirm that.

    I must say that I loved the compactness of the kit, it just felt so right for walk around street shooting, and on a medium format digital sensor…….very attractive
    There is a pro who actually makes plenty of money selling his fine art landscape prints and he uses the SWC and also the 503CW with the older P45 (not the plus model) and his images seem very good out to the corners. Alain Briot-beautiful-landscape.com
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    Re: Wide Angle shooting M9 V M240 - experiences appreciated

    I know it's an older thread, but here are a few images captured with the CV15mm version III








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