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Thread: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    The real key which not sure anyone talked about yetis the impact of mirrorless in the market. Having Leica join into the mix is actually a big boast to mirrorless. Even though some may struggle with this SL and with Sonys A7 series I think we could all say this is good for the photo market. It's up to Canon/Nikon next to decide if this is there direction they should take. I do give credit to Leica for putting out a good EVF that will go a long way for others to improve and find new and better decisions. Honestly we can sit and discuss the merits of both of these mirrorless systems but honestly there is a big attitude towards Sony and Leica. Leica tends to get the overpriced behind the times tech and Sony gets far worse just a crap system. Sad they both get dinged like this. But the way I see it is more jealously more than anything coming from the detractors. I look it as a Sony shooter now I'm shooting a piece of **** and I could care less. But truth be told go look in those fun threads for both systems and it tells a far different story. End of day folks all that counts is the final image.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Sony owners, many of whom are terribly sensitive...."

    Unlike Leica users, who are quite calm in the face of criticism of their cameras.
    Nobody likes their baby slammed. LOL What I'm saying is that the Sony people have to face alot of snide remarks. I joined the RFF forum with my little Nex-5 shooting Leica glass in 2010. That was a cool welcome from some

    Personally I separate my sweetie A7.mod from the big evil panda who made her shutter so loud, I have affection for the former and ire toward the priorities of the latter.

    But there is no doubt if you choose your glass carefully any of the A7 series can make great images and the latest r2 is really impressive with native glass. But there is not a single native sony lens I would not give up for the M alternative. That's just me. I prefer manual focus and the FE lenses are not so good at that, except the batis, which are so much bigger than the Ms....bla bla.

    Yes it's the final image. You can make babies without touching too
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The real key which not sure anyone talked about yetis the impact of mirrorless in the market. Having Leica join into the mix is actually a big boast to mirrorless.
    Very important to remember, and I'm sure Canon and Nikon are all ears by now.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Hi,

    I'm very interested in the industry and as a long time practical user of the M system, I'm very much gunning for Leica. However, at an intellectual level I find the industry interesting and its in this context that my comments are directed. You are right that 36-50MP is not massive in terms of printing, but the problem is that such thinking does not necessarily drive the camera market, despite impacting your own rationale. Just look at A7 to A7R sales (how many people really needed the 36MP), or the success of the D800E that provided a hair better fine detail at non diffraction limited apertures. The same goes for the Canon 5DS and 5DSR, where the latter is massively outselling the former. Just to reiterate, my comments are 'industry observations' - opinions about how these cameras/specs/releases may be received by the wider public and the impact this may have on sales and therefore Leica's fortunes. Its not about what I could or could not do with a camera. That has almost become a point unworthy of conversation, because the vast majority of cameras are so very good. It really does come down to nuances and marketing.

    On the subject of 'what a camera can do', whenever a new camera is released the backdrop is what other cameras can (or cannot) already do. Manufacturers of course need to differentiate their products from others, as this is the basis of making decisions. Mat has amply explained why he chose the S platform for his work and it makes perfect sense. Jono and several others have explained why they find the SL very appealing (and the 'universal platform' aspect seems to be one of the most appealing). My concerns are not that these cameras cannot and do not make specific people very happy, or that they are not very good cameras, only that I am concerned Leica has not managed to make them appealing enough for enough people to provide Leica with outright success with their lines. This is also the context of my comments on S007 resolution. I think a lot of people did want and expect more resolution, not because they necessarily need it, or because 40 to 50MP makes a huge difference, but because it marks forward momentum. These things are evolutionary and many owners like to feel they are somewhere towards the leading edge. We may not individually subscribe to this thinking, but it seems the market often does.

    As for the 'worlds best camera designers', I am not sure whether you are speaking of Leica specifically or just the big names generally. However, lets not forget that the Leica T proved to be a fairly substantial failure (and most Leica users could have predicted that quite easily). Sales were poor and the lens line up is still very limited. This must surely have knocked Leica back a bit and that is a real shame. Nearly ten years ago I was creeping through subterranean passageways photographing heroin addicts in Afghanistan. I always had one or two M bodies with me and there was no other camera on Earth I wanted to have with me at the time. With the SL, I had hoped for a camera that might fuse some of the best attributes of the M with new mirrorless technologies and create something really special, but as Jono says, the SL really is much closer to a mirrorless R than an interchangeable Q. The S007 is a great camera as is, but had it been given even 45MP I have no doubt that nagging doubts would have been erased from some potential buyers' minds, however silly that may seem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Lawyer View Post
    The math going from 40MP to 50MP adds just over 2 1/2 inches of linear resolution, printing at 300 dpi. That's pretty negligible. And while I don't know exactly who the "most other commentators" might be, the few I came across tested the 007 before Lightroom had created a profile for it. That said, count me in with Andreas Kauffman and Mat, enthusiastic users of one of the best camera systems unleashed on the planet.

    It's a whole lot more fun thinking of what kinds of things your kit can do than commiserating on forums about how the world's best camera designers and engineers have just missed it.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    As I said earlier, it occurred to me that this is more a DSLR replacement as much as it is a challenger to the Sony A7 series. The only real commonality is they are both mirror-less, and both are placing pressure on Canikon in one way or another depending on the photographer's needs.

    Having a 4+K EVF is a major advancement for mirror-less. It lowers the barrier for switching from OVF to EVF. Hardly "behind the curve" tech. Now everything else out there is behind the curve in this key area for awhile.

    The SL appears to be fast in a lot of areas where others are slower (some functionally, others operationally) ... which is another perceptual barrier between mirror-less and DSLRs.

    Like the S camera, the SL shoots to two cards like many Pro spec DSLRs ... which was one reason I had trouble psychologically making the A7R my work-horse kit for paid work, especially weddings (the "door slam" shutter and lag were also issues).

    The A7R may have been a "beta" to the A7R-II, but I was stuck with an overly complex, lens challenged, crippled $3K camera for a lot of jobs ... and rarely used the A7R for pleasure ... because it wasn't.

    Given that the pixel wars are still being fought, I understand the issue with the SL's FF 24 meg. Leica may have done better by at least psychologically breaching the 30 meg barrier whether it made any real difference or not. But it is what it is.

    That said, I must say that I am VERY impressed with the image qualities of the initial photos from reviewers so far. I can't recall feeling that way about any beta stuff for some time. Oliver Richter's decisive sports images with the 90-280 @ ISO 6400 are eye opening IMO, and seem to support the over-all responsiveness, AF speed and lack of lag attributes.

    The only reason I was looking at the S(007), was to increase my S system's range of usefulness. However, those areas of use rarely require MFD file size ... and while improved, the slower responsiveness is still an issue compared to other alternatives better suited for that type of work. In that respect, this SL is a less expensive alternative for me ... something one rarely can say about anything from Leica

    Unfortunately, the wifey got wind of this possible expenditure, and my new SL and 24-90 zoom camera may magically turn into a new bathroom makeover

    Knitting the ski mask today

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Despite some quite humorous posts, this is an interesting discussion, I have much less interest in the industry as a whole Tom, I'm focussed massively at the time I need to buy something and then I don't care so much. Digital is moving fast so I buy what I want and then forget about it until I need to buy something else, and at that point that piece of equipment needs to work for me solely and I have very little interest in how it is perceived or accepted by the wider photographic community, it doesn't matter to me personally.

    The reason I continue to reply to the likes of Algrove has nothing to do with his choice of camera, good luck to him, it's more about the continued assertion that one camera is better than another, either because it is cheaper or has more mp or whatever the stated "fact" mainly because I don't believe for one second that there is a better camera, there is just a more suitable camera. The Z is brilliant, just not for me.

    I like to look at scenarios, I travel a lot and often, like Tom, to places that are less than ideal. My last trip to Afghanistan was a couple of years ago now but it was fairly tense, the best camera for that time was an RX1, small, good quality but most importantly, I could take shots without drawing attention to myself, no way on earth I would have used a Z or S at that time, larger files are irrelevant from the morgue! So the RX1 is the best camera? Of course not, just at that time.

    In Iraq it was much calmer and I travelled all the time in armoured vehicles, I took the D800 and a reasonable selection of lenses, small enough to be useful but not large enough to draw unnecessary attention, if I had the S then I'd have used it too, same physical size and wouldn't have been out of place, I would have taken the Z at a push but would have been more conscious and probably wouldn't have used it as much.

    If I had clients needing product shots I'd have a tech cam and back or possibly at a push for small runs the S with the 120 T/S but that would be limiting and only as an addition to what I have, definitely not the Z.

    For the studio and for outdoor portraits I'd use the S 006 with a 120cs or 180cs with strobes, having tried lots of cameras it's the best combination of usability, size and image quality is just beautiful. I'm sure there are options for high sync with the Z but weren't at the time I was buying.

    I have 3 clients now who want me to shoot corporate portraits and include video, 1 client is very specific on 4k but others not, for non technical video, the 007 is amazing in 4k, it's a case of putting it on a tripod and going for it, no extra lenses no extra system, it's restricted for sure but within its restrictions, perfect. I can't do 4k with the Z.

    If I was on a budget then the Z would be a serious consideration, if I wanted big statement prints then I'd rent an tech cam and a db and wouldn't use either S or Z, especially if I was going somewhere to do it with the specific aim of making those pieces.

    If I'm wandering about at home as I do most days and wanted MF quality then I'd use Z or S and depending on budget, contax lenses or S lenses.

    And so to the SL, I hope it's a success but it's definitely not a mass produced product going to appeal to lots of people, some will love it, some will hate it, hopefully enough will love it to make it a success. It could work for me as a backup/video/faster action cam but I already have a lot of that covered and have never shot faster stuff. Video does look like a key area because more and more clients ask for it, as Marc says, at this point is a "cheaper" option than a second 007, cheaper is obviously relative! What I'd really like to see on the SL is T/S lenses, for me then it would have another benefit but very unlikely that will happen, would be great though! I personally dislike evf but for video it would make no difference to me as I'd use an external monitor like Stuart does with his A7s.

    I keep saying there is something for everyone because there is, there is no such thing as one camera being better than other and the best we can hope is that manufacturers keep pushing things forward so that we can reap the rewards.

    Have a nice weekend.

    Mat
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Ido not understand why the SL is not a mass produced cam. There are no moving parts, like the RF mechanisms or the mirror box. They should be able to churn out thousands in a week even if we allow for special engravings or red paint.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    That said, I must say that I am VERY impressed with the image qualities of the initial photos from reviewers so far. I can't recall feeling that way about any beta stuff for some time. Oliver Richter's decisive sports images with the 90-280 @ ISO 6400 are eye opening IMO, and seem to support the over-all responsiveness, AF speed and lack of lag attributes.

    The only reason I was looking at the S(007), was to increase my S system's range of usefulness. However, those areas of use rarely require MFD file size ... and while improved, the slower responsiveness is still an issue compared to other alternatives better suited for that type of work. In that respect, this SL is a less expensive alternative for me ... something one rarely can say about anything from Leica

    - Marc
    I am fully with you WRT MP count. Maybe a 36MP version would have been nice, but actually for most shooting I do today I do not need more than 24MP, which I consider a sweetspot for most photography I do and I guess it would be the same for many others. So better to have an excellent and fast 24MP version than a more limited higher MP count version.

    And while the 7k price point for the SL is, it is not more when compared a M240, which I always wanted but never was satisfied with because of several reasons. The SL can be nicely used with my M glass, giving me all the primes I need, plus the zooms will make up for the rest, even moderate wildlife.

    So as you say, actually a "cheap" alternative

    Peter

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    One year old egg?


    Century egg is a delicacy in some parts of the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_egg



    Those who have seen it know it is gorgeous.
    SOOO TASTY. Especially when you get from good restaurants. I whole heartedly recommend eating them at YUNGKEE if ever in HK. Along with the famous roast goose (which admitted has gone down in quality but is still quite good).
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Understand your point. However R lenses MF on the M use an EVF for focus and other info. R lenses on the SL will manual focus via an EVF just like the M.

    No direct SL-R adapter exists for anything like Sean Reid was hoping for. So until that adapter comes out (I hope sometimes next year, but based on the time frame it took for Leica to get the M-R adapter out Leica does not have a good track record in this area) what is the advantage of getting a camera judges heavier than the M and which has one, just one native lens available until mid 2016.

    If an S-SL adapter were NOW available it would at least get S users interested more than the ones I know who are on the sidelines waiting for that adapter.


    S adapter Q2 2016 (likely a sample at the photo show along with the tele-lens)
    R adapter Q3 2016 (likely coming later due to auto aperture)
    50 SL Q4 2016 (Hope this lens is KILLER and worth the wait. I think it will be.)
    Last edited by aDam007; 24th October 2015 at 05:21. Reason: TYPO

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    First I was not comparing the S-006 files to the 645Z, but instead the S007. You just brought that S006 idea up. Latest camera versus latest camera is the only comparison IMHO.

    Good suggestion about trying the S007. I will rent an S 007 for 3 days and see if side by side shots are better with an S kit that costs multiples the price of a 645Z kit. Let's seenow:

    S007=$17k
    30-90=$10.5k or maybe more by now

    Total $27.5k without wired remote $139 and extra batteries at $224 each (ouch).

    645Z=$7.5k
    28-45=$5k
    90=$5k
    55=$1k

    Total $18.5 without weather proof remote $20 and extra batteries at $45 each.

    I can a second 645Z body and still have less in the kit than the above.

    That S007 had better be WAY BETTER than the 645Z to justify all this expense.


    I think it is.. But my needs are probably different from yours. The things that give me joy are probably different from the things that give you joy.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Any reason why there couldn't be a Nikon to SL adapter?

    Thinking Zeiss Otus would be fun on the SL given the large EVF.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddanois View Post
    Any reason why there couldn't be a Nikon to SL adapter?

    Thinking Zeiss Otus would be fun on the SL given the large EVF.

    No reason. I think there will probably be a china adapter within a month of launch date. I haven't looked, there might be one already come to think of it.

    I have my M to T adapter already ordered. I am contemplating buying the R to T adapter. But I don't know if I want to switch the mounts back on the R lenses just yet. Might not buy the adapter just yet as to not tempt myself.

    REALLY can't wait for the S adapter to come. I've already gone out and shot while imagining the crop factor. Came home and did some LR crops and honestly I think I could get along well with the SL and S lenses in a pinch (needing higher ISO or just if I need a backup cam).

    My newly acquired 45S would become pointless though on the SL. Due in part to the 50APO having amazing rendering.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Any thoughts on how the SL could impact the next update to the M? Is it possible that Leica can strip some of the extra stuff, i.e; video and slightly slim the M now that the end user has the SL to attach R lenses and have a much better video experience?
    Duane Pandorf
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Matt, you have been hammering the nail in over and over again quiet well now about your preference for the Leica above the Z.
    I am not gonne tell you why I like the Z very much. It has been said.
    One thing you can be happy about is that the Z, ( sounds like some criminal )probably brought
    the price down of the MF Leica body.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddanois View Post
    Any reason why there couldn't be a Nikon to SL adapter?

    Thinking Zeiss Otus would be fun on the SL given the large EVF.
    Novoflex already makes this adapter. Nikon to T-mount. Should be others. These are dumb adapters, of course, but for manual focus legacy glass they are fine. It's no harder to make than a E-mount adapter, so they could easily be sourced from the many small CNC shops in China which make some amy varieties for the E. Some of these shops, like 3H series, are better with tolerances than novoflex, and cost about 15% of the novoflex.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Novoflex already makes this adapter. Nikon to T-mount. Should be others. These are dumb adapters, of course, but for manual focus legacy glass they are fine. It's no harder to make than a E-mount adapter, so they could easily be sourced from the many small CNC shops in China which make some amy varieties for the E. Some of these shops, like 3H series, are better with tolerances than novoflex, and cost about 15% of the novoflex.
    Just found the one mentioned. (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...G&A=details&Q=)

    Getting more interested however I really need to see the IQ this camera produces. I really like the rendering of the Leica Q. However, the Q makes you fall in love and then she leaves you hanging when you want to quickly switch to more traditional portrait shots.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Sorry if this has already been mentioned on this thread but I just learned that this may become a great landscape option as the with the great weather sealing of the camera body and SL lenses you can also shoot 30 min exposures at any ISO.

    From the manual: "Shutter speed range 60s to 1⁄8000s, B for long exposures up to 30min"
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Throw a wrench in here. It has no electronic first curtain which turned out a huge issue on the A7r.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    Matt, you have been hammering the nail in over and over again quiet well now about your preference for the Leica above the Z.
    I am not gonne tell you why I like the Z very much. It has been said.
    One thing you can be happy about is that the Z, ( sounds like some criminal )probably brought
    the price down of the MF Leica body.
    Michiel,
    I approve of competition. The price of the Z may well have influenced the price of the S. If so, I really like the Z; this from a purchaser of the S.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Just saw the SL at Photo Plus in NYC. Got it straight from the horses mouth. The SL does NOT support central shutters with the adapter, and will not in the future via firmware. He said they wanted to leave a reason for somebody to get an S. I thought that was pretty lame personally. I can't imagine that's an actual reason not to support leaf lenses. Intentionally crippling a function just to drive sales to a higher end product is a ludicrous move. Also the EVF is very good, but I wouldn't say it's heads above the very best EVFs in a Fuji or Sony. You still have to zoom in to check critical focus, it's just a little less 'grainy' in the finder. I will say that it's not as big as people say. Even the zoom is not too bad overall. It just looks huge in comparison to the camera.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Pandorf View Post
    Any thoughts on how the SL could impact the next update to the M? Is it possible that Leica can strip some of the extra stuff, i.e; video and slightly slim the M now that the end user has the SL to attach R lenses and have a much better video experience?
    It's possible that Leica will have a heritage or back to our roots campaign. Where they will strip the M down and minimise it's size. Though I don't even see this as necessary. They're probably at the point now where they can slim it down while keeping the tech. But probably won't reduce the thickness very much. Unless the mount sticks out further. So it's likely they'll just keep LV etc etc.. And sell an external EVF that's SL in quality as an expensive add-on.


    I think the only impact the SL will have on the future M is marketing. They'll back off on the whole M can do everything attitude, and start spinning the niche RF heritage attitude.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ddanois View Post
    I really like the rendering of the Leica Q. However, the Q makes you fall in love and then she leaves you hanging when you want to quickly switch to more traditional portrait shots.
    Yep.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Throw a wrench in here. It has no electronic first curtain which turned out a huge issue on the A7r.
    Please explain what you mean? I'm not up on all of this.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Watching this from a bit of a distance ...

    It simultaneously amazes and appalls me that we have 500 responses over a camera only Jono has experience with.

    Ditto the RX1rII and any of the new Sonys ....

    And maybe 5 new pictures from any camera ...

    Here is the deal ... froth does not make art ... gesticulate and cogitate all you want but until the steel is in the hand no one's opinion
    is worth the bandwidth to post it.

    And this is a site with the most talented photographers I would wish to spend a fortnight with on an isolated venue.

    Yes got my own sense of whether a large mirrorless 24mp camera is worth the same price as a M246 or 240 ... but will not weigh in until I see
    it in the flesh.

    Truly like a reality show gone viral ...

    Save your chips and invest them where you think they will give you the return that is worth your expended work and time.

    One lens and that a zoom which is not fixed aperture ...

    And if the little camera is all you have ever desired then great ... bottom line is what you do with it.

    The sniping and derisive comments should be reserved until the special boxed item is in everyones hands.

    Hope it rocks your world.

    And I really should not comment like this after pulling weeds for 6 hours and imbibing a bit to recover.

    Bob
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Throw a wrench in here. It has no electronic first curtain which turned out a huge issue on the A7r.
    I've had so many strange and unpredictable issues with the first curtain shutter and various lenses on the A7, I turned it off and never use it. I do think the SL has some sort of "silent mode" mode, no?

    Noise, burst speed, and lag are the primary shutter issues no? Certainly in the burst speed and lag department, the SL is ahead of the A7r2, well if Ming is to be believed, anyway, regarding the lag.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    I've had so many strange and unpredictable issues with the first curtain shutter and various lenses on the A7, I turned it off and never use it. I do think the SL has some sort of "silent mode" mode, no?

    Noise, burst speed, and lag are the primary shutter issues no? Certainly in the burst speed and lag department, the SL is ahead of the A7r2, well if Ming is to be believed, anyway, regarding the lag.
    Here's an honest preview of the SL:

    http://www.mirrorlessons.com/2015/10...nds-on-review/
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    I've had so many strange and unpredictable issues with the first curtain shutter and various lenses on the A7, I turned it off and never use it.
    It's been fine for me at shutter speeds no faster than 1/1000 sec. At faster shutter speeds I get uneven exposure. I use E1C shutter mode because it's quieter and more responsive. If the SL is as quiet and responsive without this feature I'd be OK without E1C.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    That's a good tip Doug, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Some of the worst photography I have ever seen in any review of anything, sorry. Makes DPR look like great shooters. In both places the subjects come out the worst, both camera and models. Yikes.

    Compared to the nice work of Jono, Ming, Dowling and quite a few other small reviews, an abuse of photons.

    Great watermark though.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    That's a good tip Doug, thank you.



    Some of the worst photography I have ever seen in any review of anything, sorry. Makes DPR look like great shooters. In both places the subjects come out the worst, both camera and models. Yikes.

    Compared to the nice work of Jono, Ming, Dowling and quite a few other small reviews, an abuse of photons.

    Great watermark though.
    I'm not disagreeing regarding artistic merit. But at least there's a balanced assessment of the performance of the AF system, one of the key selling points of the SL.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Here's an honest preview of the SL:

    http://www.mirrorlessons.com/2015/10...nds-on-review/
    At least one guy who would not be buying a real camera (non review sample) for his use.

    Plus, being the start of a new system, I am more than willing to give it time to prove itself. But if Leica doesn’t plan to challenge the competition and simply sees the SL as an alternative for M users who wish to drop their current DSLR and use the same brand for all their work, I am going to need some motivation.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    That's a good tip Doug, thank you.



    Some of the worst photography I have ever seen in any review of anything, sorry. Makes DPR look like great shooters. In both places the subjects come out the worst, both camera and models. Yikes.

    Compared to the nice work of Jono, Ming, Dowling and quite a few other small reviews, an abuse of photons.

    Great watermark though.
    I think you completely misunderstand their reviews, this is for them in first place about capabilities of cameras and not great photos. I agree that good or great photos would help.

    But I am - at least from my side - happy about any of these reviews, as it will help to judge a new camera without the need to instantly buying one - plus this would be even impossible in the case of the SL
    Last edited by ptomsu; 25th October 2015 at 03:50.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    That's a good tip Doug, thank you.



    Some of the worst photography I have ever seen in any review of anything, sorry. Makes DPR look like great shooters. In both places the subjects come out the worst, both camera and models. Yikes.

    Compared to the nice work of Jono, Ming, Dowling and quite a few other small reviews, an abuse of photons.

    Great watermark though.
    Far better than a nearly hour long metal polishing video from Leica showing off their lathing skills.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I think you completely misunderstand their reviews, this is for them in first place about capabilities of cameras and not great photos. I agree that good or great photos would help.

    But I am - at least from my side - happy about any of these reviews, as it will help to judge a new camera without the need to instantly being one - plus this would be even impossible in the case of the SL
    Spot on. The more info the better. All of the Leica testers/reviewers, for example, shot stationary subjects. These may be great from an artistic perspective, but I'm really keen to see how the high speed AF at 11 fps stacks up when shooting a fast moving subject.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Just saw the SL at Photo Plus in NYC. Got it straight from the horses mouth. The SL does NOT support central shutters with the adapter, and will not in the future via firmware. He said they wanted to leave a reason for somebody to get an S. I thought that was pretty lame personally. I can't imagine that's an actual reason not to support leaf lenses. Intentionally crippling a function just to drive sales to a higher end product is a ludicrous move. Also the EVF is very good, but I wouldn't say it's heads above the very best EVFs in a Fuji or Sony. You still have to zoom in to check critical focus, it's just a little less 'grainy' in the finder. I will say that it's not as big as people say. Even the zoom is not too bad overall. It just looks huge in comparison to the camera.
    Well POOP!!!!! Rather than drive sales toward the S, they simply eliminated one reason to get this camera.

    It's as if Leica doesn't think there is enough difference between this camera and the S without relying on leaf shutter to separate them. So, in effect they are doing the opposite.

    I always took a DSLR with me on jobs where the S was the main camera ... for back-up, and to be able to respond to situations better suited to a DSLR handling. Use of CS functions on the SL would have made it a truer back-up to the S, while extending the SL's ability to work with high sync lighting unlike any other DSLR or Mirrorless interchangeable lens solution.

    I sure as heck wouldn't buy a $17K second S just in case ... but I could see a SL user adding a couple of CS lenses to extend the ability of the SL kit when working with lighting. That'd potentially increase sale of CS lenses, and most certainly add value to used CS optics.

    - Marc

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Well POOP!!!!! Rather than drive sales toward the S, they simply eliminated one reason to get this camera.

    It's as if Leica doesn't think there is enough difference between this camera and the S without relying on leaf shutter to separate them. So, in effect they are doing the opposite.

    I always took a DSLR with me on jobs where the S was the main camera ... for back-up, and to be able to respond to situations better suited to a DSLR handling. Use of CS functions on the SL would have made it a truer back-up to the S, while extending the SL's ability to work with high sync lighting unlike any other DSLR or Mirrorless interchangeable lens solution.

    I sure as heck wouldn't buy a $17K second S just in case ... but I could see a SL user adding a couple of CS lenses to extend the ability of the SL kit when working with lighting. That'd potentially increase sale of CS lenses, and most certainly add value to used CS optics.

    - Marc
    I think this feature can be activated anytime via firmware! Or maybe there would be some SL lenses with leaf shutter coming later?

    Peter

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    If CS shutters are indeed disabled with the adaptor and this can be remedied via firmware (and I assume it can), then I think it would be a huge mistake for Leica to obstruct CS operation of S lenses mounted on the SL. This would be seen as a cynical move and completely at odds with the universal platform benefits of the SL. Hopefully there will be greater clarity from Leica on the matter.

    Someone who decides to do strobe work may decide to pick up an S lens or two, but is unlikely to decide to blow another 17K on top for a S. To hope that S users who own CS lenses and who adopt the SL will then fork out for a range of SL (CS) lenses as well (assuming Leica makes some) would be equally absurd. Full utility of the S lens line up provides the most appeal. The products are already well differentiated by virtue of the size of the sensors, form factor and plethora of other differences.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I think this feature can be activated anytime via firmware! Or maybe there would be some SL lenses with leaf shutter coming later?

    Peter

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    If CS shutters are indeed disabled with the adaptor and this can be remedied via firmware (and I assume it can), then I think it would be a huge mistake for Leica to obstruct CS operation of S lenses mounted on the SL. This would be seen as a cynical move and completely at odds with the universal platform benefits of the SL. Hopefully there will be greater clarity from Leica on the matter.

    Someone who decides to do strobe work may decide to pick up an S lens or two, but is unlikely to decide to blow another 17K on top for a S. To hope that S users who own CS lenses and who adopt the SL will then fork out for a range of SL (CS) lenses as well (assuming Leica makes some) would be equally absurd. Full utility of the S lens line up provides the most appeal. The products are already well differentiated by virtue of the size of the sensors, form factor and plethora of other differences.
    I agree. This also leaves the door open for CaNikon to offer CS on a (hypothetical) 135-sized mirrorless camera and eat Leica's lunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I'm really keen to see how the high speed AF at 11 fps stacks up when shooting a fast moving subject.

    Used for sports with a prototype 90-280 APO lens:

    https://www.facebook.com/oliver.rich...95510983863749

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I agree too, this camera makes sense as an addition to existing kit but if CS isn't utilised then it's a fairly big negative whilst there are not many lenses available, i.e one! I can't see Profoto building an HSS/TTL controller for the SL either.

    Mat

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    I agree. This also leaves the door open for CaNikon to offer CS on a (hypothetical) 135-sized mirrorless camera and eat Leica's lunch.




    Used for sports with a prototype 90-280 APO lens:

    https://www.facebook.com/oliver.rich...95510983863749
    Curious, what game is that? Ball seems only slightly bigger than a grapefruit and look at the last pic of on the court. Certainly not basketball or volleyball on a hard court???

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?


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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Curious, what game is that? Ball seems only slightly bigger than a grapefruit and look at the last pic of on the court. Certainly not basketball or volleyball on a hard court???

    Dave (D&A)
    It's handball or team handball. Here's the wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handball

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Just saw the SL at Photo Plus in NYC. Got it straight from the horses mouth. The SL does NOT support central shutters with the adapter, and will not in the future via firmware. He said they wanted to leave a reason for somebody to get an S.
    The S-adapter won't be released before spring 2016 (official Leica post on their page) and Leica claims "full compatibility with S lenses" - no other detail whatsoever... Given Leica's reputation of supporting customers needs to the maximum and the fact that if LS is not supported (while there is no technical reason not to) it will negatively affect SL 601 sales, S sales (given that pros don't buy one camera only) and S lenses sales (given that the camera can provide a cheaper step into building an S-system but a back-up to existing S too), I would take your "exclusive info" on the matter with a lot of salt....

    It is usual during new camera promotions, that the people who present the product are not involved with the technical details of future development, so I find it hard to believe that if one asks "will the (coming in several months) S-adapter allow the SL to use the LS shutter of S lenses"? ...to get an answer (from a person that can't possibly know and only answers into what he is instructed to answer...), that would be "no, neither we will allow it via firmware update because we want to leave a reason (as if there aren't enough already) for one to buy an S body... In addition one has to think as to "why the S-adapter will be released with so much delay"... where to most obvious explanation should be that "Leica gives special attention to it as to provide full current and future compatibility with the S lenses"...
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    It's handball or team handball. Here's the wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handball

    Joe
    Thanks and very interesting. The handball I played in my youth either on a court or elsewhere, used a small (smaller than a baseball) rock hard ball (usually black in color), and we wore a glove on one hand. Game pictured is completely different.

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I think you completely misunderstand their reviews, this is for them in first place about capabilities of cameras and not great photos. I agree that good or great photos would help.

    But I am - at least from my side - happy about any of these reviews, as it will help to judge a new camera without the need to instantly buying one - plus this would be even impossible in the case of the SL
    Why would I trust the views on anything from people who have the terrible judgment to post those photos and obviously had the camera for about an hour?

    Here is a nice antidote:
    The Leica SL - First Impressions Review — jay cassario

    I showed one of Jay Cassario's images of the SL earlier in thread, which you see in this review, but did not at that time know the source. I would like to credit him now

    PS I agree it's a shame leaf shutters are not supported in the SL.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    That's a pretty good, balanced review, like it!

    Mat

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Looks like a great camera. Out of my range since I will continue to be an M user with an A7. But when the body's price eventually comes down 4 years from now, as it will, maybe I'll get one as a back up and it will be nice to have an EVF for all my M lenses. I'm not sure why each camp has to have so much defensiveness. I too was expecting a A7-sized camera and Leica has surprised everyone with something a little different. I think it's great.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    Why would I trust the views on anything from people who have the terrible judgment to post those photos and obviously had the camera for about an hour?

    Here is a nice antidote:
    The Leica SL - First Impressions Review — jay cassario

    I showed one of Jay Cassario's images of the SL earlier in thread, which you see in this review, but did not at that time know the source. I would like to credit him now

    PS I agree it's a shame leaf shutters are not supported in the SL.
    Well, not sure why you hate this review site so much, I definitely am in no way connected with them except that I read regularly their reviews and like them for what they are. My final trust into a product will only come when I handle it myself and can do some test shots myself, which I will do in the next days anyway as soon as Leica Store Vienna gets one SL.

    I have read the Cassario review earlier this week myself and while I find it very good, there were some things confusing me pretty much, like when he mentions that AF does work very well in dim light - "I used it during dark receptions where most DSLRs struggle to lock focus, and with its AF assist lamp, I had little trouble locking focus." I cannot help myself, but I never ever use AF assist lamps as I find these lights the most ugly interruptions during receptions or other events, so this makes me a bit wonder ....

    Anyway I do not want to continue comparing reviews, everyone should use the ones he/she thinks are valuable for them and forget the rest. Unfortunately today there are far too many reviewers out there who think they know what they are doing and writing, so times will get even harder

    All the best for your further selection process for the SL anyway

    Peter

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    The more I think the more I agree that Leica should have released some more lenses with the SL.
    Yes, you can use all kind of Leica M,T,S lenses on the SL, but they all will make more sense on their "native body".
    Except, maybe extending the use of S-lenses of S2/S006 users for higher ISO.

    I appreciate the design of the SL, I really like the top display, big viewfinder (even though I really would like to look through it and decide for myself if it can compete with a good optical viewfinder for my taste).
    For my taste the 24-90 is too big, I would much rather use smaller f1.8/f2.0 primes, but I understand it makes sense for some people to have a high quality zoom with such a great range.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Lens selection is a problem for nearly every new camera mount -- Sony had troubles with the FE mount, Leica had troubles with the S and T mounts, and they are having it now with the SL mount. That said, the troubles for the SL mount are a bit less than they were for the S system, for example, since there are already M, R and T lenses that can be used immediately (The M to T adapter is available, and non-electronic R to M adapters are now ubiquitous). I initially dismissed the T lenses, but then I realized that they could actually be quite useful for video...they should provide high quality native lenses for 4k video, even if the resolution is low for stills. Granted, it will be very nice to see some new SL lenses for people who are looking to buy into the system as their main camera, but for users of other Leica systems, the transition should be quite easy.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Well, not sure why you hate this review site so much,
    Peter
    LOL sorry Peter. I have no feeling toward the site whatever, never even heard of it. The imagery in the review set me off. It's not uncommon for would-be tech sites to review whatever. Which is fine. Make a professional review with decent presentation and good imagery. But that one was pretty shocking, compared to everyone else doing such decent jobs right and left: DPR excepted.

    If you post images on your website, they should be decent. If you are reviewing a Leica camera, or any camera, some extra care seems natural.

    By all means, anyone should post whatever links they deem relevant. But of course we should all be free to be appalled

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