Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

[UHDR]

Thanks Jono for the early review.

Somehow i managed to pick out all the trielmar shots without even looking at caption.....hmmm..... (Not the wide angle part that captured my attention). There is definitely something special about the trielmar:grin:

Now after reading more reviews and hands-on article, i feel it makes more sense to look at it as.....S but Light....oh wait.... Hmm...

 

[Zony user]

Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling.

There are no benefits of using this camera as a pro, unless you want to impress your clients with the Leica badge.

 

[Brian Mosley]

Well, there's plenty to handle at 2kg or 4.4lbs with lens. Perhaps this person has really small hands:

Image from DP Review

I was thinking the same thing - yes, it's way too big for my interest, but someone was having a laugh using that model to hold it.

It's impossible to argue with the price+technology of the Sony kit to produce an output... but it feels like mass market disposable (at least the A7RII does imho).

Kind regards

Brian

 

[uhoh7]

There are no benefits of using this camera as a pro, unless you want to impress your clients with the Leica badge.

Oh come on. There are many, many kinds of pros doing lots of different jobs. Plenty like digital Ms as an arrow in the quiver. So it will be with this thing.

It's not overpriced a penny considering the quality and low production numbers. It will sell out. It will hold value.

The weak link is going to be the AF lens set, which may never materialize in remotely the options you have with a D810. So, of course lots of small scale pros would never consider it. Good thing, because they could not make enough.

It's a real supercar, and they are not always totally practical

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

There are no benefits of using this camera as a pro, unless you want to impress your clients with the Leica badge.

You could say that about several cameras, like the Leica S, which is used by several pro photographers, some of whom are active on this forum.

But let's say then, that you want a camera that does photography, minimum 11 fps (for whatever reason), and 4k video using an internal viewfinder and sometimes 120 fps HD video as well. Which one would you suggest? The NX1 comes close, but it's not full frame.

And don't claim that those requirements are unusual or irrelevant. This is exactly the kind of specs I have dreamed of with my combination of assignments, doing sports, events, industrial, portrait and travel photography. The D810 goes a long way to satisfy my needs, but it's not a practical camera for video. A7... forget it. Too small battery, only one card slot, alien ergonomics, slow burst mode etc.

 

[mjr]

I agree, to class pro's as being the same or requiring the same is pretty absurd. As with all camera users, nobody needs to justify what they want to use. It has many pro features and for a pro it's written off over 3 years and if you aren't making enough money to afford it then there are more serious issues to deal with, like getting another job!

The more I read of this the more I like, I hate small cameras, personal thing and this looks a good size to actually hold and use on a job. Balance will be something I can only judge if I hold it but the S balance negates the weight, it's so nice to hold.

A couple of decent contracts will buy this camera for me but it's not something I will get, at least not now as there is nothing I lack from the 007 and 006 combination. I think Leica did a great job of this camera, good luck to them.

Mat

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

Here's an article with several photos that show the size of the camera more realistically:

Leica SL 35mm Full Frame Autofocus | Film and Digital Times

 

[Vivek]

Here's an article with several photos that show the size of the camera more realistically:

Leica SL 35mm Full Frame Autofocus | Film and Digital Times

 

[Zony user]

You could say that about several cameras, like the Leica S, which is used by several pro photographers, some of whom are active on this forum.

But let's say then, that you want a camera that does photography, minimum 11 fps (for whatever reason), and 4k video using an internal viewfinder and sometimes 120 fps HD video as well. Which one would you suggest? The NX1 comes close, but it's not full frame.

And don't claim that those requirements are unusual or irrelevant. This is exactly the kind of specs I have dreamed of with my combination of assignments, doing sports, events, industrial, portrait and travel photography. The D810 goes a long way to satisfy my needs, but it's not a practical camera for video. A7... forget it. Too small battery, only one card slot, alien ergonomics, slow burst mode etc.

The Leica S is different, because it' sensor caters to a more slow-shooting crowd. From promotional videos it's quite clear Leica is going after the Canon and Nikon pro's with the SL.

As a 'professional' camera, the lack of PDAF is a deal-breaker for photographers, and the lack of a tilting/articulating screen will prevent videographers from considering this camera. Besides, what pro will buy a camera with one native lens and nonexistant support?

 

[raist3d]

I respect Leica for having the guts to make this camera on one end. "Very German" was my first thought. And I am sure it has some degree of great usability and the lenses will be amazing.

But at this point I am a fan of smaller cameras, so decidedly not for me, and as for image and all I do believe you can get comparable image quality in some ways at at least half the price.

But I still respect in a way the guts to go for such a particular design even if it's not to my personal preferences in what I want in a camera, as far as being coherent/consistent.

- Ricardo

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

The Leica S is different, because it' sensor caters to a more slow-shooting crowd. From promotional videos it's quite clear Leica is going after the Canon and Nikon pro's with the SL.

As a 'professional' camera, the lack of PDAF is a deal-breaker for photographers, and the lack of a tilting/articulating screen will prevent videographers from considering this camera. Besides, what pro will buy a camera with one native lens and nonexistant support?

I have used Panasonic GH1/2/3 professionally for 5 years without PDAF, and apart from when shooting motor sports, I never had a problem with AF. Rather the opposite, actually, since CDAF on modern mirrorless cameras is extremely fast for stationary subjects. Additionally, Ming Thein says the following about the AF of the SL: "I think it’s quite possibly the fastest focusing mirrorless camera in low light, period – and faster than some DSLRs, too." My own experience from the GH3 is that the AF is fast enough to use AF-S, even when shooting fast moving subjects.

Although the Panasonic cameras have a fully articulated LCD, I rarely used it for video, except when I used WA lenses. For those who shoot video on a professional level, an external monitor would mostly be fitted anyway.

 

[Vivek]

I have used Panasonic GH1/2/3 professionally for 5 years without PDAF, and apart from when shooting motor sports, I never had a problem with AF. Rather the opposite, actually, since CDAF on modern mirrorless cameras is extremely fast for stationary subjects. Additionally, Ming Thein says the following about the AF of the SL: "I think it’s quite possibly the fastest focusing mirrorless camera in low light, period – and faster than some DSLRs, too." My own experience from the GH3 is that the AF is fast enough to use AF-S, even when shooting fast moving subjects.

Although the Panasonic cameras have a fully articulated LCD, I rarely used it for video, except when I used WA lenses. For those who shoot video on a professional level, an external monitor would mostly be fitted anyway.

MT has negative credibility after claiming the A7r II is a "toy". He should be out there promoting VW. He might even fool a few and sell a few units.

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

MT has negative credibility after claiming the A7r II is a "toy". He should be out there promoting VW. He might even fool a few and sell a few units.

I have no idea how he could come to that conclusion :ROTFL:

 

[fotografz]

I just don't get the value proposition for a professional.

My niece got married on Saturday. The professional was toting a bog standard Nikon pro body and had a smaller spare (probably a D610 or similar). Her main lens was obviously a 24-70 type zoom (a Sigma from the look of it) and she had what looked like the monster Nikon WA zoom for group shots.

Unless my maths is wrong the total of her kit including strobe is probably equal to, or even less than the SL+24-90. What Wedding Pro except those doing the top end weddings is going to be able to afford two SLs (for safety) and two lenses?

Then there is the disaster recovery issue. If her camera had failed on the day then she had a cheaper similar body for backup but with an equally good sensor. If her camera had failed before the wedding she could hire a body for the day/weekend which will be compatible with her bog-standard lens collection.

So, I can only assume the SL is aimed at wannabe professionals and not real professionals.

Actually, thinking about it I'd modify that and say it probably does have a place for videographers with deep pockets. But it is competing with the Panasonic GH-4 'whatever' which professionals I have talked to use as the 4K standard, some use the Sony A7S which has the iso sensitivity advantage and just got a whole lot better in the M2 version, so again why buy a £10K system - what on earth would be the ROI?

There is nothing I can see in this system which would compete with or replace the value proposition of my Sony kit at the best mirrorless ILC on the market. There is the Leica build and ergonomics but the premium is ridiculously high.

The strangest contradiction in product management terms is that the Leica Q which is by comparison a third of the price but has the same sensor would probably make a good second camera for a wedding pro for reportage and grab shots. I have an order in for one (no deposit, so no pressure) but I'm now seriously thinking of getting the Sony RX1R mk2 instead.

Sony is basically thrashing Leica and I seem to meet some of my Leica forum chums here at GetDPI who can no longer justify the benefits of a Leica system over the value proposition of Sony - especially as each iteration of their body/sensor works better and better with legacy Leica glass.

Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling.

Just my two cents!

LouisB

The premium for working with Leica equipment has always been high Louis. There is no short answer to your request, but I'll try and share my own experiences. To address your "value" question depends on evaluating a few conditions a professional (full or part time) may be working with.

Chief among these is "how successful" one may be. If you have a good business model and sharp accountant, are positioned at the higher end of your market and/or have less external financial pressure that allows you to prioritize what you want to work with ... IF there is something you think will work well for you, and how you shoot, then equipment costs become less of an issue.

Leica has set their sights on those with the means to choose almost anything they want, whether pro or amateur. Volume sales isn't their objective. While we compare this SL to Nikon, Canon or Sony, that isn't really the competitive set for Leica. In a manner of speaking, Leica could be seen as a reward for doing well ... wether a successful Doctor, Engineer, or Professional Photographer

So, you are probably right, this SL system is of little to no value to a wedding shooter positioned at the lower or even mid-range of their market, certainly not a Craig's Lister cranking out weddings for $1K or less. In contrast, my last wedding was $6K, plus I was doing a fair amount of corporate work and commercial shoots on top of weddings and portraits with established day rates ... (have one this January for $4.5K plus all expenses for 7 hours shooting).

If Jono and Ming's assessments are correct, this kit is exactly what I'd seriously consider. I'm use to Leica prices and did work for pay with comparatively expensive Leica M9s & a MM with a King's ransom in M lenses, plus a S2 (now a S-006) and CS lenses. My work horse wedding DSLR was a 24 meg FF Sony A99SLT and 6 ZA lenses which I recently sold. If Leica had made a Digital R to replace the DMR, that is what I would have been using instead.

I tried the Sony A7R and found it wasn't up to my pro wedding needs. To loud, short battery life, an EVF that smeared in low light movement, too much timing lag, too complex interface, didn't shoot to two cards ... not to mention poor choice of AF lenses until more recently. While the A7R-II addresses some of these issues, it still falls short. Its value proposition to me was poor. Actually, the A99 was better in most cases.

In contrast, this SL hits a lot of the marks that are of importance for me:

24 meg FF is my sweet spot for most pro assignments, most certainly weddings. This camera is quiet. It doesn't lag. It shoots to two cards. Seems to have a simple interface similar to the S camera (4 buttons around the LCD), has a higher res EVF and fast refresh rate. The AF seems quick and accurate according to reviewers. Compared to the FE 24-70/4, the new 24-90/2.8-4 stabilized lens is the perfect zoom range for weddings and lots of other applications. If it is anything like the Leica 28-90R lens, it'll render to my liking.

I have hesitated in ordering the A7R-II, and while I liked the new S(007), also have hesitated ordering that. This time it seems procrastination is paying off. I will now get this kit instead.

I will be able to use my M lenses and S lenses ... so I probably will only need the SL body and the 24-90 zoom ... which combined are thousands less than the S(007) body alone. Hopefully, my SF58 speed-lights will work. My S kit can now reside predominately (but not exclusively) in studio tethered to a 5K retina screen (best LCD review ever!), or be used on jobs or personal projects requiring portable lighting with leaf-shutter CS lenses.

The issue others have with the SL grip probably won't concern me as much ... I use a Camadapter dual lug ARCA QR plate with a hand-strap and wide soft shoulder strap on all my working cameras. It eliminates long term hand fatigue and shoulder strain even when carrying a S camera and big S lenses ... like at a wedding.

- Marc

 

[Vivek]

Marc, You may want to check out the battery life (SL vs A7r II) before thinking this ticks all the boxes for you. Also, the lag time.

 

[mjr]

I agree with all Marc's points. I work in a small market flooded with people with a 6D and kit zoom lens, I am often 3 times the price and yet I have decent regular work because I provide value, cheap and value are 2 different things! I made the conscious decision to work at a level with equipment that is not normal and for me it pays off. Decent contracts can be very lucrative, my recent trip to Mali paid for the 007 and 24mm lens no problem, everything I earn with it over the next 3 years is profit.

The SL appears more and more interesting every time I read something new, my 006 is on the way back from being completely overhauled and was going to be my backup but I can see myself selling it for the SL, on a tripod with an S lens shooting high quality video whilst I shoot stills with the 007, could be an ideal kit for me. This afternoon I am shooting an event with the 007, it's overkill for sure as I know the images will be on facebook and website, the SL with the 24-90 will do the job extremely well and more importantly, would still give me the same look to the files so it wouldn't appear to the client that I'm using something cheaper for the job.

Anyway, it's another option, I wish them loads of success with it.

Mat

 

[Zony user]

I have used Panasonic GH1/2/3 professionally for 5 years without PDAF, and apart from when shooting motor sports, I never had a problem with AF. Rather the opposite, actually, since CDAF on modern mirrorless cameras is extremely fast for stationary subjects. Additionally, Ming Thein says the following about the AF of the SL: "I think it’s quite possibly the fastest focusing mirrorless camera in low light, period – and faster than some DSLRs, too." My own experience from the GH3 is that the AF is fast enough to use AF-S, even when shooting fast moving subjects.

Although the Panasonic cameras have a fully articulated LCD, I rarely used it for video, except when I used WA lenses. For those who shoot video on a professional level, an external monitor would mostly be fitted anyway.

1. What do you need 11 fps for, other than shooting action like motorsports, wildlife/birds, or sports? All professional working in these fields REQUIRE phase-detect AF. In fact, why did they even bother with 11 fps if they had no intentions of including PDAF?

2. As for video, there's no way an articulated LCD won't help. And to add insult to injury they even decided to go without IBIS!! So you're stuck with the native 24-90mm for video if you want autofocus or any sort of stabilization.

3. Ming Thein also mentions the ergonomics are WORSE than Sony. He finds the grip very uncomfortable.

So much like the original A7's, this camera is an half-hearted effort. I applaud Leica for pushing the envelope, but honestly it would be smart to wait for the next generation of this camera. By then they'll surely have more lenses too.

 

[Sully]

1. Thank God the SL has an HDMI, 10 bit, 4-2-2 output with V-log.
We could not use the M240 for much of our video work because it
did not have an output for an external monitor or recorder. The SL
now lets the Director or Producer see what the camera operator is
shooting.

2. The 24 to 90 lens is the perfect video interview lens. In combination with our Apo Vario Elmar 70-180, we can get maximum
quality in 4k. We generally want to shoot at F 4 or F 3.5 on the larger
chip cameras because we need the DOF. We light the subject, so, we
don't need an F1.4 unless we are in some wild uncontrolled situation.
Hopefully, Metabones will make an adapter for the T mount (L mount??).
Price of the new zoom....A Leica quality lens for $5k sounds like a good deal to me. Cooke, Angenieux , and Fuji video zoom lenses cost at least $15k to $30k. And you have to have two overlapping lenses for
most situations. There seems to be a PL to T adapter on the way from
Leica which will allow many older film/video lenses to be used on the SL.

Ciao, Sully

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

1. Thank God the SL has an HDMI, 10 bit, 4-2-2 output with V-log.
We could not use the M240 for much of our video work because it
did not have an output for an external monitor or recorder. The SL
now lets the Director or Producer see what the camera operator is
shooting.

2. The 24 to 90 lens is the perfect video interview lens. In combination with our Apo Vario Elmar 70-180, we can get maximum
quality in 4k. We generally want to shoot at F 4 or F 3.5 on the larger
chip cameras because we need the DOF. We light the subject, so, we
don't need an F1.4 unless we are in some wild uncontrolled situation.
Hopefully, Metabones will make an adapter for the T mount (L mount??).
Price of the new zoom....A Leica quality lens for $5k sounds like a good deal to me. Cooke, Angenieux , and Fuji video zoom lenses cost at least $15k to $30k. And you have to have two overlapping lenses for
most situations. There seems to be a PL to T adapter on the way from
Leica which will allow many older film/video lenses to be used on the SL.

Ciao, Sully

The PL adapter is apparently already available. It's to the left in this photo:

 

[k-hawinkler]

My impression, all the M lenses used in Jono Slack's article getDPI | Photography at its best seemed to be carefully chosen; of course understandably so. I own several but not all of those lenses. Mine also work very well on an unmodified Sony A7r2 camera.

I am looking forward to Jono's promised article on M lenses that are known to have problems on (unmodified) Sony A7 cameras but do much better on the SL, according to Jono. Of interest to me would also be a comparison of their performance on a modified A7r2.

Nevertheless, congratulations on a well written but uncritical introduction of a new Leica system that needs to be looked at with a grain of salt IMHO.

Whereas Jono's article reads more like a sales brochure to me, Ming Thein's blog has more of the character of a review, spelling out the good and the bad as he sees it. Actually from Ming's article I personally get a much clearer impression of the areas the SL excels in and leaves the competition behind.

The differences in camera design philosophie of Sony and Leica are becoming much clearer. Although some lenses in both camps can be larger, I nevertheless appreciate more a smaller camera body over a larger one as it seems to offer more flexibility.