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Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

Paratom

Well-known member
Come on guys. If rumors are to be somewhat on point:
24MP FF Q-like sensor
better Q-like ISO
some AF system
etc.

The current S007 sells for $16k-body only and it took Leica until September to bring it to market after announcing it nearly a year before. Do you really think it will be another S any thing announced on the 20th? Leica's trouble is that they are stuck in a rut with 37.5MP being their top end MP camera so all others by deifnition must have less MP than the current S model. This leaves them only being able to work on higher ISO, AF PDAF sensors in the 24MP range while other manufacturers improve on all aspects of their sensors including MP.

Is their something in the S lineup that is keeping Leica stuck at 37.5MP? Maybe, but what?
Maybe image quality and customer requirements. Maybe also pricing considerations.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
I guess it will be what we read in the speculations. I just had that short dream, it could have an OVF (because of the steep price). But I am pretty sure it wont.

When shooting with an EVF I always feel I have to check the image afterwards to see if I have caught the moment. A combination of slight delay, limited DR and resolution of the viewfinder compared to an optical viewfinder. (As long as the optical viewfinder is large enough).

But then Leica offers the M and the S with OVF, so there are options.

I really wonder about lens sizes of the new system, if it will be considerably smaller than FF-DSLR-lenses or same size.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Come on guys. If rumors are to be somewhat on point:
24MP FF Q-like sensor
better Q-like ISO
some AF system
etc.

The current S007 sells for $16k-body only and it took Leica until September to bring it to market after announcing it nearly a year before. Do you really think it will be another S any thing announced on the 20th? Leica's trouble is that they are stuck in a rut with 37.5MP being their top end MP camera so all others by deifnition must have less MP than the current S model. This leaves them only being able to work on higher ISO, AF PDAF sensors in the 24MP range while other manufacturers improve on all aspects of their sensors including MP.

Is their something in the S lineup that is keeping Leica stuck at 37.5MP? Maybe, but what?
Al, I don't think anyone thinks it will be a new S camera, only perhaps a miniaturization of one, which incorporates some of the technologies like the Maestro processor and AF technology...more of a mirrorless R....
I agree with you that their decision to stick to 37.5mp in the S puts them in somewhat of a bind with respect to resolution. No matter how much the execs say 37.5mp is "enough" for everyone, there is only so long that they will be able to do so. As 40-50mp becomes the norm for the high resolution 35mm cameras, getting someone to pay 13,000 US extra for a lower resolution camera with similar or lesser high ISO performance will be quite a hard sell. Even harder than it is now...and I say this as an S user who also uses the A7rII. The S (006) still has the quality (by a hair) and handling edge, but it is too close for comfort. As for why they chose to keep it at 37.5mp, personally I think they pay too much attention to fashion photographers, because that fits their idealized image of their camera system. Since they rarely need larger than a magazine spread, they are more interested in frames per second, live view and the ability to do some in camera video. They also thought, probably correctly, that many people don't print very large, and that 37.5mp is more than enough for most purposes. While rational, it disregards human behavior when it comes to these types of purchase, which is a desire to be ahead of the competition. People buying a Ferrari like to know that it is faster than their neighbor's Subaru, even if sometimes it isn't, as in the case of a WRX STi.

In reality, most users of the S are wealthy amateurs or working pros with extra income to spend on a high quality system that will handle all conditions and features the best possible lenses. Certainly a balance of speed (both handling and ISO) is important, but they cannot do so at the expense of sacrificing their image quality and resolution advantage. The fact is that they released the S at 37.5mp when the highest resolution 35mm cameras were 24mp...that was already six years ago and the resolution is the same, as is the overall image quality at moderate ISOs. At the time they billed their lenses as being capable to survive the next three generations of pixel sizes, such that they could tolerate sensors with up to 100mp...hopefully they will design a body to suit those lenses! Increasingly even people who are invested in the system will ask themselves, "what's the point in spending 8000 USD on a lens and 16,000 on a camera body when you can buy a 3000 dollar camera with a 800 dollar lens that out-resolves it?"
 
M

mjr

Guest
I wonder if owners of 80mp backs sit there laughing at owners of 50mp cameras saying my camera is 30 better than their cameras?! I may be entirely alone in thinking that mp are way way down the list of important factors in a camera, I'm fine with that! There are some people using and enjoying the A7s with 12mp, heathens.

Mat
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
MP may be down on the list of important features for a consumer camera or for a camera focused on sports or journalism, but when you are in the ultra-premium segment marketing your cameras and lenses as being the utmost in quality and performance, it is hard to say it with a straight face when the much cheaper competition meets or exceeds your offering when it comes to specs and indeed actual performance. Personally, my last book and my last two exhibitions used every bit of the S quality and could have used more. The book was printed at 600dpi and used nearly all the resolution. The prints in the show were 1x1.5m and printed at 120pi...my printer can do 360 and would have turned out even better results with more resolution, assuming the quality was the same otherwise. In any case, I am certainly not looking for the S to have higher resolution so that I can laugh at Sony or Canon users...I am not sure where you got that from? I want more resolution because I will use it, and it will be far more useful to me that 3.5 frames per second or ISO 12,000! Of course, this is also not to say that the S does not have quality as it is, only that personally I think they went the wrong direction in the new model...they probably did not have much choice, since finding a new sensor would likely cost more and be riskier than recycling and improving the CMOSIS chip from the M like they did with the M9 sensor in the S2.
 
M

mjr

Guest
Serious question Stuart, why are you using an S at all if you don't need speed or ISO but you need more resolution? Surely there are better solutions? 80mp and a tech cam maybe?

My point is and always will be that there are options for pretty much everyone wanting whatever is on their list, your priorities may be yours alone, as mine may be mine alone, the point has to be for a small company to produce what will sell within their ethos, Leica's is clear.

Mat
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Hi Mat,
So as not to further derailing the thread, I will keep it brief! Basically, the S is perfect for Iceland and my work. The completely weather sealed AF lenses, usable at any aperture are extremely compelling. As is the handling, which is both intuitive and functional -- I can operate all functions while wearing gloves or even mittens. The viewfinder and ergonomics are superior to every camera I have used, and the out of the box image quality is far better than I have had with any other camera, including other mfd cameras. I used to have a Hy6, and the S is a far more functional camera for my uses. I can use the S in the studio, in the field and for landscapes or editorials. I also prefer working in Lightroom vs capture one or other software, so Leica's native support is ideal. Combining this with Leica's willingness to help me directly in a country with no reliable dealer network means that the S is the best camera for me. The only area where I think we differ is that I mostly use the camera at base ISO and would prefer it had more resolution, and you don't need resolution and would prefer higher ISO and speed. Since I mostly use Sony cameras for video, having the S do this is not as compelling unless it can do it better, which does not appear to be the case.
 
M

mjr

Guest
I understand Stuart, I guess we need to be extremely lucky to find any product that does everything we want and most of the time have to compromise on a few things, the smaller the number of those things the better. You are right, we differ on the need for resolution, I care most about what my clients need and despite the fact that I provide 2 versions of every image I produce, 1 optimised for web and 1 full size optimised for print, very rarely is anything used beyond web and promotional material use. The few clients who have produced display stands with files have been amazed with the results so no need for larger for what I do, I can fully appreciate you work in a different way.

Mat
 
Is anyone really going to get excited about these lenses? Sure they're nice ranges but they're still variable aperture, which means a 50mm 3.5. I don't care how sharp it is it'll render like a variable aperture zoom. Leica is known for making jewel like prime lenses with fast apertures. Releasing this with a 50, 35, 90, and maybe a 24mm seems like something that would actually bring excitement. And on top of that it's going to cost 10 grand? Even if I wanted to spend $10,000 on a 35mm camera all I would get is a 50/1.4 or a variable aperture zoom? I'm sorry but this just seems like Leica from the bad-old-days of cutting corners to save money and testing for the high water mark of price acceptability. Even if they cut that price in half, a $5,000 dollar mirrorless 35mm camera would still be absurdly expensive. Lets hope it is 5 grand or else this is destined to go the way of the T. Nobody is spending 10 grand on a 35mm camera with a slow zoom.
 
For those excited about a mirrorless S... Why not SLT tech? Best of both worlds. I don't think that the S needs to be shrunk much, it's lenses are huge and have to be. Throwing an EVF and a MULTI-POINT-PLEASE focusing system and you got a game changer.

It's still too expensive. Leica should try and attract the wedding market, their camera is almost perfect suited to that task and it's the largest growing photographic industry left over. We print our photos and we love the beautiful rending of lenses like the 100/2. Get one in the hands of Jose Villa and see what happens. But it's not happening until the camera and lens is $10,000.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Is anyone really going to get excited about these lenses? Sure they're nice ranges but they're still variable aperture, which means a 50mm 3.5. I don't care how sharp it is it'll render like a variable aperture zoom. Leica is known for making jewel like prime lenses with fast apertures. Releasing this with a 50, 35, 90, and maybe a 24mm seems like something that would actually bring excitement. And on top of that it's going to cost 10 grand? Even if I wanted to spend $10,000 on a 35mm camera all I would get is a 50/1.4 or a variable aperture zoom? I'm sorry but this just seems like Leica from the bad-old-days of cutting corners to save money and testing for the high water mark of price acceptability. Even if they cut that price in half, a $5,000 dollar mirrorless 35mm camera would still be absurdly expensive. Lets hope it is 5 grand or else this is destined to go the way of the T. Nobody is spending 10 grand on a 35mm camera with a slow zoom.
I find the 24-90 a very flexible focal legth/speed combination. Something in between a 24-70/2.8 and a 24-120/4.0 lens from Canikon.
I also find 2.8-4.0 not slow for such a lens.
I admit that a couple of fast primes would be important as well. (As of today I prefer 2-3 primes over a zoom, no matter how fast (and big) it is.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
I find the 2 zooms to be an excellent choice (24-90, 90-280), and they are reasonably fast with 2.8-4. Especially the 90-280 would be one of my favorite lenses and fast enough for almost all I need to do in that focal length range, especially sports and wildlife keeping in mind the high ISO capabilities we can expect from this camera (if it is at least as good as the Q)!

I also find the primes - if they come as rumored - to be perfect. 1.4/50 and 1.4/35 are a wonderful duo and the 2.8/60 was - as I already mentioned - one of my most used lenses for the Leica R.

There could be more primes from the beginning, but I assume these will come asap (whatever asap means in Leica terms :)). Also a wide zoom would be great, something in the range of 16-35.
 

aDam007

New member
Al, I don't think anyone thinks it will be a new S camera, only perhaps a miniaturization of one, which incorporates some of the technologies like the Maestro processor and AF technology...more of a mirrorless R....
I agree with you that their decision to stick to 37.5mp in the S puts them in somewhat of a bind with respect to resolution. No matter how much the execs say 37.5mp is "enough" for everyone, there is only so long that they will be able to do so. As 40-50mp becomes the norm for the high resolution 35mm cameras, getting someone to pay 13,000 US extra for a lower resolution camera with similar or lesser high ISO performance will be quite a hard sell. Even harder than it is now...and I say this as an S user who also uses the A7rII. The S (006) still has the quality (by a hair) and handling edge, but it is too close for comfort. As for why they chose to keep it at 37.5mp, personally I think they pay too much attention to fashion photographers, because that fits their idealized image of their camera system. Since they rarely need larger than a magazine spread, they are more interested in frames per second, live view and the ability to do some in camera video. They also thought, probably correctly, that many people don't print very large, and that 37.5mp is more than enough for most purposes. While rational, it disregards human behavior when it comes to these types of purchase, which is a desire to be ahead of the competition. People buying a Ferrari like to know that it is faster than their neighbor's Subaru, even if sometimes it isn't, as in the case of a WRX STi.

In reality, most users of the S are wealthy amateurs or working pros with extra income to spend on a high quality system that will handle all conditions and features the best possible lenses. Certainly a balance of speed (both handling and ISO) is important, but they cannot do so at the expense of sacrificing their image quality and resolution advantage. The fact is that they released the S at 37.5mp when the highest resolution 35mm cameras were 24mp...that was already six years ago and the resolution is the same, as is the overall image quality at moderate ISOs. At the time they billed their lenses as being capable to survive the next three generations of pixel sizes, such that they could tolerate sensors with up to 100mp...hopefully they will design a body to suit those lenses! Increasingly even people who are invested in the system will ask themselves, "what's the point in spending 8000 USD on a lens and 16,000 on a camera body when you can buy a 3000 dollar camera with a 800 dollar lens that out-resolves it?"


Because resolution is NOTHING in my world. I couldn't care less about MP.
 

aDam007

New member
MP may be down on the list of important features for a consumer camera or for a camera focused on sports or journalism, but when you are in the ultra-premium segment marketing your cameras and lenses as being the utmost in quality and performance, it is hard to say it with a straight face when the much cheaper competition meets or exceeds your offering when it comes to specs and indeed actual performance. Personally, my last book and my last two exhibitions used every bit of the S quality and could have used more. The book was printed at 600dpi and used nearly all the resolution. The prints in the show were 1x1.5m and printed at 120pi...my printer can do 360 and would have turned out even better results with more resolution, assuming the quality was the same otherwise. In any case, I am certainly not looking for the S to have higher resolution so that I can laugh at Sony or Canon users...I am not sure where you got that from? I want more resolution because I will use it, and it will be far more useful to me that 3.5 frames per second or ISO 12,000! Of course, this is also not to say that the S does not have quality as it is, only that personally I think they went the wrong direction in the new model...they probably did not have much choice, since finding a new sensor would likely cost more and be riskier than recycling and improving the CMOSIS chip from the M like they did with the M9 sensor in the S2.

I'm down with the idea that Leica makes an S-007 and an SM-007. The M standing for megapixels (something crazy like 160mp would be good for double printing size that's currently available). Because I'm sure people need it. But at 37mp it's already more then necessary for my uses.

Please do the calculations on 600DPI at your print size. And ask yourself if any manufacturer has a solution for you.
 

aDam007

New member
Is anyone really going to get excited about these lenses? Sure they're nice ranges but they're still variable aperture, which means a 50mm 3.5. I don't care how sharp it is it'll render like a variable aperture zoom. Leica is known for making jewel like prime lenses with fast apertures. Releasing this with a 50, 35, 90, and maybe a 24mm seems like something that would actually bring excitement. And on top of that it's going to cost 10 grand? Even if I wanted to spend $10,000 on a 35mm camera all I would get is a 50/1.4 or a variable aperture zoom? I'm sorry but this just seems like Leica from the bad-old-days of cutting corners to save money and testing for the high water mark of price acceptability. Even if they cut that price in half, a $5,000 dollar mirrorless 35mm camera would still be absurdly expensive. Lets hope it is 5 grand or else this is destined to go the way of the T. Nobody is spending 10 grand on a 35mm camera with a slow zoom.

I agree with your frustration. I do think Leica is testing their "luxury" market with this camera.
To be fair however. Leica made a lot of amazing variable aperture zooms in the R days. But in 2015 we should get better performance for our money.

I was happy when I thought I'd see a few more Q cameras (different FLs). But at $10k for a 50/1.4 135mm setup.. It's gonna have to blow everything else out of the water.. And by a large margin.


And again, I love the OVF in the S. But I wouldn't mind a compact mirrorless S, if it has speedy AF.
 

aDam007

New member
For those excited about a mirrorless S... Why not SLT tech? Best of both worlds. I don't think that the S needs to be shrunk much, it's lenses are huge and have to be. Throwing an EVF and a MULTI-POINT-PLEASE focusing system and you got a game changer.

It's still too expensive. Leica should try and attract the wedding market, their camera is almost perfect suited to that task and it's the largest growing photographic industry left over. We print our photos and we love the beautiful rending of lenses like the 100/2. Get one in the hands of Jose Villa and see what happens. But it's not happening until the camera and lens is $10,000.
Jose Villa wouldn't touch it (strictly film). But I agree.. I'd love to have a SL+45S and a SL+100S for weddings, if they really were small fast EVF S-sensor cameras. As it stands now, I'm considering two S bodies for weddings. I just can't decide if I think it's a good or a bad idea (weight wise). I use to run around with 2-3 1Dx cameras.. And that was hell.. 2x M-P240 cameras strapped to me, make my life a lot easier.
 

algrove

Well-known member
I very much enjoyed the S back and forth commentary. I do not dislike S owners. I have shot with many over the years. It is just so overpriced like my M240 cameras I use and love. But don't say anything bad about my Q.
 

aDam007

New member
I very much enjoyed the S back and forth commentary. I do not dislike S owners. I have shot with many over the years. It is just so overpriced like my M240 cameras I use and love. But don't say anything bad about my Q.

Yes, the Q is great. And I think the price point is fair for what you get. Again, I kinda wish Leica would have just added the necessary updates to the Q (half stop shutter, half stop aperture) and then just brought out a 35/75 or 28/50/90 versions. Update the flash to something usable and viola. I'm happy for the next 10 years + whatever S-system I decide to keep/use + the newest M available :D
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Please do the calculations on 600DPI at your print size. And ask yourself if any manufacturer has a solution for you.
600dpi is for the book images, not for prints. Believe me, I did the calculations, as it was a book produced in 1000 copies. 600 dpi is 21x32cm from the S and S2 uncropped files. Crop a bit and it gets even smaller. Plenty of manufacturers produce a solution that is higher...any one that has higher MP.
 

aDam007

New member
600dpi is for the book images, not for prints. Believe me, I did the calculations, as it was a book produced in 1000 copies. 600 dpi is 21x32cm from the S and S2 uncropped files. Crop a bit and it gets even smaller. Plenty of manufacturers produce a solution that is higher...any one that has higher MP.
:salute:
I was referring to doing 1.5+ meter prints using 600dpi :D
 
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