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Thread: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I don't know that nerves are struck so much as there are some that are more vocal about the hypocrasy of some that ding Sony and the limitations of being a new FF system (like lens size, not having DSLR like PDAF, lens selection, etc) but see Leica gets "a pass" for having some of the same flaws.

    Personally I think this will be a great camera, specifically for those looking for a 35mm FF Leica S backup or a true R solution (even if it doesn't currently fit into my personal needs) and one that could be a real DSLR alternative IF there were more market and user access. From that marketing standpoint I think this is a market success. As a competitor in the mirrorless market though I think it's somewhat of a failure as Sony, Olympus, Fuji, and Samsung will likely surpass the technological features of this cameras pretty quickly as many pf them are already surpassed. The same can be said for the pro level DSLR's (5D, 6D, D810, etc) that are all about due for replacement/update soon.

    Choice is good and if I still was in the "Leica Ecosystem" or wanted to get my wife a camera this would be something I'd consider along with the Fuji, Sony, or Olympus choices.
    Or, wait six months and get the Panasonic FF version with tilting rear screen for under $3,500

    So many fantastic cameras are out there and this is definitely one of the most interesting. I am so blown away by the choices.

    -Bill

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Oooh! Where's my Panasonic Leica S clone? I missed it.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Oooh! Where's my Panasonic Leica S clone? I missed it.
    LOL

    Fair point. But Leica bought this technology from someone and my eight ball says All Signs Point To Panasonic.

    If Panasonic wants to take their well regarded GH line into FF territory it will, no doubt, have some very similar internal technology as the new Leica.

    Of course, Panasonic going FF is wild speculation and the powerful Leica is real.

    -Bill

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    LOL

    Fair point. But Leica bought this technology from someone and my eight ball says All Signs Point To Panasonic.

    If Panasonic wants to take their well regarded GH line into FF territory it will, no doubt, have some very similar internal technology as the new Leica.

    Of course, Panasonic going FF is wild speculation and the powerful Leica is real.

    -Bill
    Woot, I would have thought Leica would be smart enough to have a contract to lock Panasonic out of the game. This is the big league, so to speak, that a m4/3 player has no place in here. Unlike the P&S market, if Panasonic would come out with their SL version, it would wreck Leica in a major way.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Personally i really welcome the new Leica SL. I was about to buy a M-240 as a backup for my beloved MM, i guess i will
    stop this and consider the SL instead. It would also give me something in between my MM and Hasselblad H3D and could
    be used as a backup for both. Wondering if it would work to stack the H Adapter for S and then the S Adapter for SL for
    attachment of Hasselblad HC lenses to the SL. I'd probably get the SL with just one fast prime lens and then
    adapt the rest either from M glass or HC glass. Needless to say i really don't care about weight and size of the SL.
    It looks like a sturdy beast of a camera which i like.

    I might get my hands on one SL next weekend, lets see...

    Just my 2 cents,
    Ralf

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I just don't get the value proposition for a professional.

    My niece got married on Saturday. The professional was toting a bog standard Nikon pro body and had a smaller spare (probably a D610 or similar). Her main lens was obviously a 24-70 type zoom (a Sigma from the look of it) and she had what looked like the monster Nikon WA zoom for group shots.

    Unless my maths is wrong the total of her kit including strobe is probably equal to, or even less than the SL+24-90. What Wedding Pro except those doing the top end weddings is going to be able to afford two SLs (for safety) and two lenses?

    Then there is the disaster recovery issue. If her camera had failed on the day then she had a cheaper similar body for backup but with an equally good sensor. If her camera had failed before the wedding she could hire a body for the day/weekend which will be compatible with her bog-standard lens collection.

    So, I can only assume the SL is aimed at wannabe professionals and not real professionals.

    Actually, thinking about it I'd modify that and say it probably does have a place for videographers with deep pockets. But it is competing with the Panasonic GH-4 'whatever' which professionals I have talked to use as the 4K standard, some use the Sony A7S which has the iso sensitivity advantage and just got a whole lot better in the M2 version, so again why buy a 10K system - what on earth would be the ROI?

    There is nothing I can see in this system which would compete with or replace the value proposition of my Sony kit at the best mirrorless ILC on the market. There is the Leica build and ergonomics but the premium is ridiculously high.

    The strangest contradiction in product management terms is that the Leica Q which is by comparison a third of the price but has the same sensor would probably make a good second camera for a wedding pro for reportage and grab shots. I have an order in for one (no deposit, so no pressure) but I'm now seriously thinking of getting the Sony RX1R mk2 instead.

    Sony is basically thrashing Leica and I seem to meet some of my Leica forum chums here at GetDPI who can no longer justify the benefits of a Leica system over the value proposition of Sony - especially as each iteration of their body/sensor works better and better with legacy Leica glass.

    Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling.

    Just my two cents!

    LouisB

    I can't see a value proposition for a working Pro. If this sported. 36 or 42 MPX it's a maybe at best. Problem here is one the money out of gate. It's a big investment for 24 MPX besides that you need backups either in hand or a place to rent one. I mean I have been here before on the cost issue with medium format and even with big sensors high MPX backs it was hard to justify sometimes. For pros it's a tough call but for Leica fans with money to burn it maybe a great setup. I'm bothered by the hand grip. I never meet a straight hand grip that would not cramp my hand in a hour. That looks like a poor design choice. Granted I have not read much about this since I already counted myself out but it's going to be hard to compete on the outside world of Leica itself and its users. Sony has taken a pretty big punch in the market. I can seriously buy two bodies of the A7rII and a 1200 dollar lens for the body cost alone. This is where ROI steps in at least for me. Leica lenses are not exactly cheap so a good kit to get going is at least 20k out of the gate. Seriously if I made mid 6 figures a year than I maybe would not think twice. I don't so I'm out but I'm not so sure how many Pros are in

    But bottom line Pros are not leicas target it would be a mistake

    I'm going to stay out of this conversation though as I don't want to sound negative about it. I love Leica and wish them well but the last couple years they priced me out of there product selections. I simply can't afford anything from them. I know that's my problem and there serving there niche buyers. The sad thing is I'm just not one of them anymore. I do like a lot of what they make.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Reading the last few pages, it's quite clear that those that want this camera would not budge on their POV and those that don't see of the point of this camera would continue to do so. It has been very repetitive. Leica is clearly not going to compete with Sony so it doesn't matter. Sony is gunning for Nikon position on the market while Leica is going to serve their own niche.

    However, I do agree with Dre though. Sony got so much flak with their lens size, citing the incompetency of Sony for having thick sensor stack and small diameter mount. Now this camera comes out with ginormous lenses and no one questions why. I guess a big camera (though it's not that much bigger than Sony according to some ) needs a big lens.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Reading the last few pages, it's quite clear that those that want this camera would not budge on their POV and those that don't see of the point of this camera would continue to do so. It has been very repetitive. Leica is clearly not going to compete with Sony so it doesn't matter. Sony is gunning for Nikon position on the market while Leica is going to serve their own niche.

    However, I do agree with Dre though. Sony got so much flak with their lens size, citing the incompetency of Sony for having thick sensor stack and small diameter mount. Now this camera comes out with ginormous lenses and no one questions why. I guess a big camera (though it's not that much bigger than Sony according to some ) needs a big lens.
    I understand that Leica feels the need to serve their own niche, but it seems they have no clear vision of what they want to accomplish. I mean they're all over the place with the S lenses, M lenses, Cine lenses, R lenses, T lenses, and now the SL lenses. Even the "Big 3" (Canon, Nikon, Sony) only have 2-3 lens systems. And these companies are at least 10 times the size of Leica. So what on earth are they thinking making yet another niche product and accompanying lens system? Why not an ILC version of the Leica Q that will reach a broader fanbase?
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I can't see a value proposition for a working Pro. If this sported. 36 or 42 MPX it's a maybe at best. Problem here is one the money out of gate. It's a big investment for 24 MPX besides that you need backups either in hand or a place to rent one. I mean I have been here before on the cost issue with medium format and even with big sensors high MPX backs it was hard to justify sometimes. For pros it's a tough call but for Leica fans with money to burn it maybe a great setup. I'm bothered by the hand grip. I never meet a straight hand grip that would not cramp my hand in a hour. That looks like a poor design choice. Granted I have not read much about this since I already counted myself out but it's going to be hard to compete on the outside world of Leica itself and its users. Sony has taken a pretty big punch in the market. I can seriously buy two bodies of the A7rII and a 1200 dollar lens for the body cost alone. This is where ROI steps in at least for me. Leica lenses are not exactly cheap so a good kit to get going is at least 20k out of the gate. Seriously if I made mid 6 figures a year than I maybe would not think twice. I don't so I'm out but I'm not so sure how many Pros are in

    But bottom line Pros are not leicas target it would be a mistake

    I'm going to stay out of this conversation though as I don't want to sound negative about it. I love Leica and wish them well but the last couple years they priced me out of there product selections. I simply can't afford anything from them. I know that's my problem and there serving there niche buyers. The sad thing is I'm just not one of them anymore. I do like a lot of what they make.
    I am not all that sure of the Mpx argument.
    A lot of the working pros I know are shooting stuff in the 16.2 (Nikon D4s) to 18.1 (Canon EOS-1Dx) range or they are using the less expensive pro-sumer cameras and it is only then that we see larger numbers of pixels, or they are going much larger with medium format.
    I doubt that Mpx alone are that much of an influence in the pro market anymore.
    Yes, Guy, I know you personally like more Mpx, but the market figures seems to indicate it is the whole package that a pro camera needs and further the is not that homogeneous depending a lot on what sorts of assignments the pro typically obtains. One argument against is that a more mature line just has more stuff available and more stuff means more options. Rental house availability is also a good measure.
    Two features that many pros like is the dual storage cards and the weather sealing. The SL I wager is NOT weatherproof with an M lens attached.
    The camera, pro or not, looks to be a "date of the art" mirrorless camera with evidence of several lessons learned by others incorporated. I am most eager to actually experience the viewfinder.
    One point that is a bit weird for me is that the one native lens I have seen seems to be on the large-ish side.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    I understand that Leica feels the need to serve their own niche, but it seems they have no clear vision of what they want to accomplish. I mean they're all over the place with the S lenses, M lenses, Cine lenses, R lenses, T lenses, and now the SL lenses. Even the "Big 3" (Canon, Nikon, Sony) only have 2-3 lens systems. And these companies are at least 10 times the size of Leica. So what on earth are they thinking making yet another niche product and accompanying lens system? Why not an ILC version of the Leica Q that will reach a broader fanbase?
    Based on the responses here from those that want to get this camera, they would care less if Leica has too many systems or whether they should cater to a broader audience. Leica produces what they want (and Leica knows this by asking some of the photographers in this niche), and that is the end of story. I think if Leica is more aware of pricing their product, they would be able to come up with a more sensible product line. As it stands right now, high price = niche = out-of-touch product (only to the bigger market).

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    I understand that Leica feels the need to serve their own niche, but it seems they have no clear vision of what they want to accomplish. I mean they're all over the place with the S lenses, M lenses, Cine lenses, R lenses, T lenses, and now the SL lenses. Even the "Big 3" (Canon, Nikon, Sony) only have 2-3 lens systems. And these companies are at least 10 times the size of Leica. So what on earth are they thinking making yet another niche product and accompanying lens system? Why not an ILC version of the Leica Q that will reach a broader fanbase?
    Technically it's a new lens system but in a common mount similar to how the E mount and FE mount are different systems but use a common mount. Maybe a branding strategy of naming the SL the "FT" (for FF T mount) or "TL" (for T mount Large) would make more sense from a system standpoint to many. I think SL (or S light as Jono mentioned) makes sense from a marketing/pricing standpoint in that this is a legitimate S system backup and a completely credible R solution (FINALLY) for R users.

    As an M backup body I still think that a Leica Q that could mount lenses would make a great future Leica ML. People still want a camera like that as well.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I don't get the "this is expensive" argument. For a professional photographer who buys this camera and throws it into the dustbin after 150,000 exposures, the cost would be $0.05 per click. A typical event would for me equal a maximum of 2,000 clicks, which would then sum up to a camera cost of $100. Lens cost would be much lower, but let's say that other "hardware" costs are $100 too, and we are up to the grand sum of $200. If my income from photography can't cover that level of cost, I should look for other work (which I have, so I'm not a full time photographer anymore). For smaller jobs that require fewer exposure, portraiture for example, the mathematics look even more favourable.

    Backup is of course an issue, but if this proves to be a reliable camera, a Leica T would be a great backup, although a separate WA lens would be needed to compensate for the crop factor.

    Some claim that 24MP isn't sufficient, and that's fair enough, but I also think it's fair to say that users of the most common DSLR brand in the world, the one called Canon, haven't had access even to 24MP until very recently. Still, several of them have been able to make a living from their somewhat inferior cameras

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Agree I like a lot of MPX because I do go big. Just shot for a client that went 8 foot by 21 feet. Bad part was I could not stitch because of movement in the scene. The EVF looks to be the most promising feature on this. Anyway you should try it. im trying to understand that native lens it's a truck. I'm sure it's good though
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't get the "this is expensive" argument. For a professional photographer who buys this camera and throws it into the dustbin after 150,000 exposures, the cost would be $0.05 per click. A typical event would for me equal a maximum of 2,000 clicks, which would then sum up to a camera cost of $100. Lens cost would be much lower, but let's say that other "hardware" costs are $100 too, and we are up to the grand sum of $200. If my income from photography can't cover that level of cost, I should look for other work (which I have, so I'm not a full time photographer anymore). For smaller jobs that require fewer exposure, portraiture for example, the mathematics look even more favourable.

    Backup is of course an issue, but if this proves to be a reliable camera, a Leica T would be a great backup, although a separate WA lens would be needed to compensate for the crop factor.

    Some claim that 24MP isn't sufficient, and that's fair enough, but I also think it's fair to say that users of the most common DSLR brand in the world, the one called Canon, haven't had access even to 24MP until very recently. Still, several of them have been able to make a living from their somewhat inferior cameras

    So do you have 20 thousand to put out for it. I don't and I'm not hedging the farm over it. Sure I will get my return on it but all along its eating profit at the same time. No client I know would know the difference if I used this or not. Sure Leica is a badge of honor for some for me it's about making money. This system would not increase revenue for 1 second. Thanks but not in my wheel house.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    I understand that Leica feels the need to serve their own niche, but it seems they have no clear vision of what they want to accomplish. I mean they're all over the place with the S lenses, M lenses, Cine lenses, R lenses, T lenses, and now the SL lenses. Even the "Big 3" (Canon, Nikon, Sony) only have 2-3 lens systems. And these companies are at least 10 times the size of Leica. So what on earth are they thinking making yet another niche product and accompanying lens system? Why not an ILC version of the Leica Q that will reach a broader fanbase?
    For their own cameras, they make lenses for 3 different mounts, M, S and T/SL. Cine (PL) lenses are for cine cameras that Leica don't make themselves, and R lenses went out of production some 10 years ago. Most camera manufacturers make more than one mount. Pentax makes 3, Canon 2 and a half, Sony and Nikon 2 each.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Presumably you are referring to me as well, but I have been a Leica shooter long before I was a Sony shooter, and I haven't completely converted.
    I used to shoot with a M8/M8.2/M9/M240 and recently switched to the A7 series, but I still have my M lenses and a Leica Q.

    This product pisses me off because it wasn't a ILC version of the Leica Q like it was hyped to be. That is what I wanted. Nothing more nothing less
    I was actually mostly referring to the thread on the Sony Rumors website with 450+ comments already...

    I believe this is a very interesting an sensible move from Leica and I am still trying to determine whether it makes sense for me personally...

    That being said, even if it turns out it doesn’t, I won’t go round thrashing and destroying the camera just because it doesn’t fit my personal needs and expectations... I own a Q as well, it is a marvelous camera and I would also like to see Leica exploring this idea further with more focal lengths or with an ILC version, I don’t believe that is excluded yet... That being said, good FF AF lenses tend to be big and huge (as proven by both Zeiss and Sony now) and a Q-style body IMO wouldn’t cut it, just like IMO an A7 body looks ridiculously unbalanced with large lenses...

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    So do you have 20 thousand to put out for it. I don't and I'm not hedging the farm over it. Sure I will get my return on it but all along its eating profit at the same time. No client I know would know the difference if I used this or not. Sure Leica is a badge of honor for some for me it's about making money. This system would not increase revenue for 1 second. Thanks but not in my wheel house.
    No, I don't, so I cannot buy it, but it wouldn't be 20,000, but 12,000. All my manual focus F-mount lenses can be used with an adapter, so as an initial investment, I would only need the camera body and the zoom, and even the zoom lens could wait for a while. Then I'm down to 7,500 plus adapter, which would be possible. Not many years ago, that was what people paid for Canon's and Nikon's top models, and since they came from film, they claimed it was cheap. And it was.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't get the "this is expensive" argument. For a professional photographer who buys this camera and throws it into the dustbin after 150,000 exposures, the cost would be $0.05 per click. A typical event would for me equal a maximum of 2,000 clicks, which would then sum up to a camera cost of $100. Lens cost would be much lower, but let's say that other "hardware" costs are $100 too, and we are up to the grand sum of $200. If my income from photography can't cover that level of cost, I should look for other work (which I have, so I'm not a full time photographer anymore). For smaller jobs that require fewer exposure, portraiture for example, the mathematics look even more favourable.

    Backup is of course an issue, but if this proves to be a reliable camera, a Leica T would be a great backup, although a separate WA lens would be needed to compensate for the crop factor.

    Some claim that 24MP isn't sufficient, and that's fair enough, but I also think it's fair to say that users of the most common DSLR brand in the world, the one called Canon, haven't had access even to 24MP until very recently. Still, several of them have been able to make a living from their somewhat inferior cameras
    This cash flow analysis is totally wrong and I'm not even an accountant.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    That's just a body and 1 lens. That's not really a system. I don't need to tell you our real needs here it's several lenses, accessories and all that. I don't want two different systems if I can help it. I had 3 it drove me wild when I got to two I thought what's the point. lol
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I would like to know the thickness of the sensor cover glass.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Technically it's a new lens system but in a common mount similar to how the E mount and FE mount are different systems but use a common mount. Maybe a branding strategy of naming the SL the "FT" (for FF T mount) or "TL" (for T mount Large) would make more sense from a system standpoint to many. I think SL (or S light as Jono mentioned) makes sense from a marketing/pricing standpoint in that this is a legitimate S system backup and a completely credible R solution (FINALLY) for R users.

    As an M backup body I still think that a Leica Q that could mount lenses would make a great future Leica ML. People still want a camera like that as well.
    Thats what I think is coming down the pike next. A Q type body with interchangable lenses who's native mount is the Leica M mount. It will incorporate a state of the art EVF or maybe a hybrid OVF/EVF and I suppose either a line of AF M mount lenses or possibly AF assist light in viewfinder. Whether the body will be considered as part of the M line or not, hard to say as crystal ball just went cloudy (running out to get more Windex as we speak ).

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Based on the responses here from those that want to get this camera, they would care less if Leica has too many systems or whether they should cater to a broader audience. Leica produces what they want (and Leica knows this by asking some of the photographers in this niche), and that is the end of story. I think if Leica is more aware of pricing their product, they would be able to come up with a more sensible product line. As it stands right now, high price = niche = out-of-touch product (only to the bigger market).

    Well that is disappointing and exactly the reason why I am gradually fading away from Leica. It's hard following a company that has no clear vision and questionable motives. For all I know this new SL system could disappear in 3-4years.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Well that is disappointing and exactly the reason why I am gradually fading away from Leica. It's hard following a company that has no clear vision and questionable motives. For all I know this new SL system could disappear in 3-4years.
    To be fair to Leica it is worth recognising that obsolescence in a technical sense is unavoidable for any digital camera system. So, in 3-4 years this system could fade away, although I doubt it for much the same reason the S system has not faded away despite a slow start.

    Maybe Leica is in it for the long term and by that I mean long production runs?

    Actually, I may owe the forum an apology for my diatribe above.

    I must say overnight my confusion about this product has changed. Firstly, I confused wedding photographers with the zenith of professional photography. Actually, no offence, it is the bread and butter of the photography industry. I was sort-of reacting to the fact that I know a few wedding pros and I don't think they will trade in their bog-standard systems for this. And rightly so.

    But as several posters have pointed out (and a good friend Rolo who is currently soaking up the sun on the Med also pointed out) assignment photographers can often justify a camera for a single piece of work and in any case will depreciate the investment to zero in 3 years.

    I must admit that I was initially attracted to the camera for what may seem a rather trivial reason. 24-90 covers pretty much what I shoot. Then I saw the cost. Then I saw the size. Then I saw the claims about it being a professional camera and I thought it risible to think of bread and butter shooters paying for this camera.

    Systems are a very personal thing and it depends on what you shoot. To cover what I shoot at present I have near enough the cost of the SL+24-90 in various bodies and lenses. The appeal that is growing on me is one body and one lens (and keeping my GR and DP2M for walkabout photography). I have no interest in video and I would like to spend more time with my camera on a tripod.

    So, thinking about it again, I definitely want to see one and get an idea for its weight and functionality. It may still be too expensive and too heavy but I am beginning to see that there is lot more thought in this product (just like the Q) than might at first meet the eye.

    Just another two cents.

    LouisB
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    ... the Sony won't do 11fps even if you feed it with grain fed beef and Baron Philippe de Rothschild Mouton Cadet at every meal.

    Did I mention the tiny batteries of the Sony?
    Wrong diet Jorgen.
    My a6000 does 11fps on Beluga Caviar and Veuve Cliquot!
    Its tiny batteries make it very pocketable ...

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't get the "this is expensive" argument. For a professional photographer who buys this camera and throws it into the dustbin after 150,000 exposures, the cost would be $0.05 per click. A typical event would for me equal a maximum of 2,000 clicks, which would then sum up to a camera cost of $100. Lens cost would be much lower, but let's say that other "hardware" costs are $100 too, and we are up to the grand sum of $200. If my income from photography can't cover that level of cost, I should look for other work (which I have, so I'm not a full time photographer anymore). For smaller jobs that require fewer exposure, portraiture for example, the mathematics look even more favourable.

    Backup is of course an issue, but if this proves to be a reliable camera, a Leica T would be a great backup, although a separate WA lens would be needed to compensate for the crop factor.

    Some claim that 24MP isn't sufficient, and that's fair enough, but I also think it's fair to say that users of the most common DSLR brand in the world, the one called Canon, haven't had access even to 24MP until very recently. Still, several of them have been able to make a living from their somewhat inferior cameras

    Are you out of your mind? We do not throw our cameras in the dustbin after 150k shots, we shoot them until they shutter must be replaced, and then keep shooting them. Many of my peers have not seen cause to dump the D3S. And then you have to put this abomination in the context of ROI. There is nothing the SL can do that a D810 isn't doing better for a working photographer (i'll leave video out). For the cost of one SL you get 2 bodies. For the cost of one variable aperture lens you get 2 pro zooms or primes. I may be able to afford the SL but it would be completely absurd! I'd be throwing money down the toilet and putting my clients at risk because I chose to work with an unproven system! Considering I've shot every format from 35mm to 8x10 & MFD backs I know what to expect from various cameras, and there is 0 chance that there will be enough mojo in the SL to differentiate it seriously from a Nikon and a good lens. As for back up, if I pulled out a Leica T after my SL went down I'd be thrown out of the studio! "Oh hey guys, my pro system is busted but this polished hunk of aluminum with a touch screen will be completely fine".

    There seems to be confusion over the point that pro photographers can afford any piece of gear because we're all making money hand over foot and a tax break gives us all our investment back. Countless studios have closed over the last decade, photo journalist staffs have been fired en masse from major news institutions, and amateurs have flooded the market sweeping up all low end work or making it simply non-viable. This is a business. There is no ROI for this 1%er braggart machine. Leica makes some wonderful cameras, they really do, but lets not pretend that they're serving the industry. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't kid yourself.
    Last edited by Speedgraphic; 21st October 2015 at 10:52.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    To be fair to Leica it is worth recognising that obsolescence in a technical sense is unavoidable for any digital camera system. So, in 3-4 years this system could fade away, although I doubt it for much the same reason the S system has not faded away despite a slow start.

    Maybe Leica is in it for the long term and by that I mean long production runs?

    Actually, I may owe the forum an apology for my diatribe above.

    I must say overnight my confusion about this product has changed. Firstly, I confused wedding photographers with the zenith of professional photography. Actually, no offence, it is the bread and butter of the photography industry. I was sort-of reacting to the fact that I know a few wedding pros and I don't think they will trade in their bog-standard systems for this. And rightly so.

    But as several posters have pointed out (and a good friend Rolo who is currently soaking up the sun on the Med also pointed out) assignment photographers can often justify a camera for a single piece of work and in any case will depreciate the investment to zero in 3 years.

    I must admit that I was initially attracted to the camera for what may seem a rather trivial reason. 24-90 covers pretty much what I shoot. Then I saw the cost. Then I saw the size. Then I saw the claims about it being a professional camera and I thought it risible to think of bread and butter shooters paying for this camera.

    Systems are a very personal thing and it depends on what you shoot. To cover what I shoot at present I have near enough the cost of the SL+24-90 in various bodies and lenses. The appeal that is growing on me is one body and one lens (and keeping my GR and DP2M for walkabout photography). I have no interest in video and I would like to spend more time with my camera on a tripod.

    So, thinking about it again, I definitely want to see one and get an idea for its weight and functionality. It may still be too expensive and too heavy but I am beginning to see that there is lot more thought in this product (just like the Q) than might at first meet the eye.

    Just another two cents.

    LouisB
    I came to a similar conclusion that this would've been the ideal travel camera system for me a few years ago when I traveled much more than I do now for work. The 24-280 range would cover nearly everything I wanted to do and I had more invested in my M kit than what this costs. That being saidI would still want 2 bodies and lots of batteries so maybe when I hit the lottery after I start playing the lottery I'll buy one for that purpose.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by bipbip View Post
    Wrong diet Jorgen.
    My a6000 does 11fps on Beluga Caviar and Veuve Cliquot!
    Its tiny batteries make it very pocketable ...
    Yeah and it's worth noting that the SL only does 11fps with fixed AF and AEL (worthless) With continuous AF active you only get 7fps. So there's quite a gap between this camera and Canikon which does 11-12fps effortlessly. That's what the proven hybrid PDAF systems provide.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    To be fair to Leica it is worth recognising that obsolescence in a technical sense is unavoidable for any digital camera system. So, in 3-4 years this system could fade away, although I doubt it for much the same reason the S system has not faded away despite a slow start.

    Maybe Leica is in it for the long term and by that I mean long production runs?

    Actually, I may owe the forum an apology for my diatribe above.

    I must say overnight my confusion about this product has changed. Firstly, I confused wedding photographers with the zenith of professional photography. Actually, no offence, it is the bread and butter of the photography industry. I was sort-of reacting to the fact that I know a few wedding pros and I don't think they will trade in their bog-standard systems for this. And rightly so.

    But as several posters have pointed out (and a good friend Rolo who is currently soaking up the sun on the Med also pointed out) assignment photographers can often justify a camera for a single piece of work and in any case will depreciate the investment to zero in 3 years.

    I must admit that I was initially attracted to the camera for what may seem a rather trivial reason. 24-90 covers pretty much what I shoot. Then I saw the cost. Then I saw the size. Then I saw the claims about it being a professional camera and I thought it risible to think of bread and butter shooters paying for this camera.

    Systems are a very personal thing and it depends on what you shoot. To cover what I shoot at present I have near enough the cost of the SL+24-90 in various bodies and lenses. The appeal that is growing on me is one body and one lens (and keeping my GR and DP2M for walkabout photography). I have no interest in video and I would like to spend more time with my camera on a tripod.

    So, thinking about it again, I definitely want to see one and get an idea for its weight and functionality. It may still be too expensive and too heavy but I am beginning to see that there is lot more thought in this product (just like the Q) than might at first meet the eye.

    Just another two cents.

    LouisB
    Weddings may as well be the zenith if you're positioned right. Ad budgets are pretty sparse. I work in NYC and though I do know a few people who own a Leica for personal work nobody shoots professionally with them as their main system camera. Once this system grows there is definitely something interesting here but they should have waited a year until they had their primes done. Also if they wanted to attract the pro market it would be $5000 with a lens. The price indicates to me this is for wealthy weekend warriors or just bored wealthy people. If you are a commercial pro and you get one of these thinking that Leica mojo will make up for what you could do with a 645Z or D810, you are looking at the world through red dot colored glasses. Something I see a lot from SL apologists.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    The price indicates to me this is for wealthy weekend warriors or just bored wealthy people. If you are a commercial pro and you get one of these thinking that Leica mojo will make up for what you could do with a 645Z or D810, you are looking at the world through red dot colored glasses.
    The email from Leica actually says it s a pro cam that allows you to see the final picture before the shutter is tripped. I do not know of any other camera that makes it possible.

    As long as Leica do not shoot themselves like they did with their M line (IR bleed, sensor corrosion), it will not a be a disaster.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The email from Leica actually says it s a pro cam that allows you to see the final picture before the shutter is tripped. I do not know of any other camera that makes it possible.

    As long as Leica do not shoot themselves like they did with their M line (IR bleed, sensor corrosion), it will not a be a disaster.
    Oh Leica says it's a pro cam. That's settles it. Also any camera with an EVF allows you to preview the final image as do the SLRs in live view for tripod situations. That's why EVFs are so great, but Leica is not the first to employ them.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The email from Leica actually says it s a pro cam that allows you to see the final picture before the shutter is tripped. I do not know of any other camera that makes it possible.

    As long as Leica do not shoot themselves like they did with their M line (IR bleed, sensor corrosion), it will not a be a disaster.

    Very funny!
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Weddings may as well be the zenith if you're positioned right. Ad budgets are pretty sparse. I work in NYC and though I do know a few people who own a Leica for personal work nobody shoots professionally with them as their main system camera. Once this system grows there is definitely something interesting here but they should have waited a year until they had their primes done. Also if they wanted to attract the pro market it would be $5000 with a lens. The price indicates to me this is for wealthy weekend warriors or just bored wealthy people. If you are a commercial pro and you get one of these thinking that Leica mojo will make up for what you could do with a 645Z or D810, you are looking at the world through red dot colored glasses. Something I see a lot from SL apologists.
    Leica calls this a pro camera, one has to look how a pro camera integrates with the rest of the system the maker provides as to perform tasks that where not served (or where underserved) up to that point... With this camera Leica provides the following:
    1. Clean high ISO (as clean any pro would ever require) for events photography.
    2. High speed for sports photography
    3. Back up camera to the S system
    4. Full compatibility with the S-lenses via the S-L adapter and hence to the leaf shutter lenses (but C645 & Hassy H lenses too)
    5. A cheap MFDB for Sinar cameras (notice how wide & of shallow depth the T-mount is as to help photons to reach the sensor... it is as easy as if it was an MFDB).
    6. Ability to use the same lenses (of the S) with a view camera too and full electronic communication (the interface is the same as the S-L adapter)..... it's only a cable to connect the front and rear standard (or internal wiring) needed.
    7. A really capable motion video camera for professional use (again with the same lenses) and even the ability of full lens movements if one integrates a mini view camera between the camera and the lens.

    So, one would expect for Sinar to enter the "mini view camera" (like the Actus) soon (which obviously was going to happen anyway since this is about the only view camera market that has enough demand anymore) and then a pro user could invest on the S-system and with only 3-4 lenses, perform all tasks that he may ever need by just adding a 601 body & a Sinar view camera... all in one bag and all coming from the same supplier....

    It won't surprise me if they'll come up with a future version that will have multishot "true color" abilities and even ability to export RAW video... as to make this a most attractive system even to the most demanding pro... In fact I bet you my hat (I don't have any ) they will...

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    Leica calls this a pro camera, one has to look how a pro camera integrates with the rest of the system the maker provides as to perform tasks that where not served (or where underserved) up to that point... With this camera Leica provides the following:
    1. Clean high ISO (as clean any pro would ever require) for events photography.
    2. High speed for sports photography
    3. Back up camera to the S system
    4. Full compatibility with the S-lenses via the S-L adapter and hence to the leaf shutter lenses (but C645 & Hassy H lenses too)
    5. A cheap MFDB for Sinar cameras (notice how wide & of shallow depth the T-mount is as to help photons to reach the sensor... it is as easy as if it was an MFDB).
    6. Ability to use the same lenses (of the S) with a view camera too and full electronic communication (the interface is the same as the S-L adapter)..... it's only a cable to connect the front and rear standard (or internal wiring) needed.
    7. A really capable motion video camera for professional use (again with the same lenses) and even the ability of full lens movements if one integrates a mini view camera between the camera and the lens.

    So, one would expect for Sinar to enter the "mini view camera" (like the Actus) soon (which obviously was going to happen anyway since this is about the only view camera market that has enough demand anymore) and then a pro user could invest on the S-system and with only 3-4 lenses, perform all tasks that he may ever need by just adding a 601 body & a Sinar view camera... all in one bag and all coming from the same supplier....

    It won't surprise me if they'll come up with a future version that will have multishot "true color" abilities and even ability to export RAW video... as to make this a most attractive system even to the most demanding pro... In fact I bet you my hat (I don't have any ) they will...
    1. Like every camera you can buy right now. 2. Completely crippled by the AF system. 3. Sure.

    The rest are complete conjecture on your part. None of these products exist and I haven't seen confirmation that the SL is even compatible with the CS function on S lenses. If everything you say comes to fruition then they'll have an interesting functional system...but so far it's an A7 copy with only one variable aperture zoom lens and a 50/1.4 a whole year away. Your last assumptions also assume that no-one else will have such feature integration. They surely will, especially the ones chasing video. For my part, DSLR video is becoming less and less relevant since Canon, Sony, Black Magic, Digital Bolex, and others have far surpassed DSLR or mirrorless capabilities with hardly any relevant price premium.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I have been using Leica cameras very nearly my entire life.

    For a time, I was heavily invested in Leica lenses and digital bodies.

    If I still were, this camera would be a no brainier for me.

    It offers significant new functionality to Leica users.

    I have my own opinions about what camera does more or less for me today.

    But, beyond doubt, this is a milestone camera for Leica and I hope it does well and encourages other companies to push the mirrorless boundaries in new directions.

    -Bill
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Weddings may as well be the zenith if you're positioned right. Ad budgets are pretty sparse. I work in NYC and though I do know a few people who own a Leica for personal work nobody shoots professionally with them as their main system camera. Once this system grows there is definitely something interesting here but they should have waited a year until they had their primes done. Also if they wanted to attract the pro market it would be $5000 with a lens. The price indicates to me this is for wealthy weekend warriors or just bored wealthy people. If you are a commercial pro and you get one of these thinking that Leica mojo will make up for what you could do with a 645Z or D810, you are looking at the world through red dot colored glasses. Something I see a lot from SL apologists.
    With respect Speedgraphic, it also seems as though you are viewing the SL with blinders as well. Not every professional photographer is working under the criteria you set. Mat brought up the point that certain photographers (and I think he and I are in this group, as is Marc) are willing to pay more for Leica equipment not just for the lenses, but also for design and usability of the camera system. As professionals, we use the cameras constantly, and for some of us the difference in cost between an A7rII and an SL is not a deal breaker when you consider that this is the main tool that we will have to use for the next two to four years (minimum...I would guess). Currently I use the S system and the Alpha series cameras (primarily for video and for a compact alternative to the S for travel), and as much as I respect the Sonys for their capabilities, I am frustrated by them in use. I simply do not get on with handling them, whereas the S and other Leica cameras I have used just feel "right". If the SL can meet or exceed the Sonys on the video front, I would likely sell the Alphas for the SL. Selling the A7S, A7Rii and two lenses would cover the cost of the SL, which I could use with S and M lenses that I already have. So at least for my personal calculation, the SL could make sense. I am not sold on it yet, but certain things about it are very promising to me, as someone who works as a photographer:

    1. The interface and ergonomics appear excellent, as they seem to be based on the S system, which I use and know to be superb. I can operate my entire S kit in -10C with heavy mittens on, and just as easily do so in the studio for when I do artwork reproduction. The alpha series really suffers here, at least to my mind. Poor battery life, cluttered and illogical menu systems and lockouts on certain settings in different modes...the keys are not easy to operate surely with gloves or in the dark etc.

    2. The video seems to have been well thought out, and while Sony is a hugely impressive performer in this regard, the SL bests it on paper so far, at least in terms of signal fidelity and resolution. It will do Cinema 4k and will output 10bit 4:2:2 to an external recorder, such as the Pix-E5H that I am using.

    3. The VF and speed of operation seem significantly better...the A7S and A7Rii both take several long seconds to turn on...

    4. The SL looks to do a better job with the lenses that I currently own. I have a number of older M lenses, alongside my S lenses. The A7Rii and A7S do not really function well with my M lenses below 75mm. They can be useful for video, particularly in super 35 mode, but you have to use them fairly carefully...that does not appear to be the case on the SL, which is good news. The prospect of using the S lenses with AF on the SL also seems quite attractive, even if they will be fairly bulky. At the moment, it is not possible to use the S lenses on Sony, so being able to use them for video and stills on a body with better ISO and video capabilities than my 006 is quite attractive.

    In any case, I don't mean to pick on you, and I do agree that the SL is not going to be a persuasive camera for most professionals who are not already heavily invested in Leica gear, but at the same time it IS an interesting camera that will persuade some professionals...we are quite a diverse group...there is room for all sorts. I know a successful professional here that does much of her work on a Nikon F3 shooting clothing adverts and weddings on film, and in the same market I do artwork reproduction, editorial and sell prints taken using the S. To each their own.
    Last edited by Stuart Richardson; 21st October 2015 at 12:34.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    With respect Speedgraphic, it also seems as though you are viewing the SL with blinders as well. Not every professional photographer is working under the criteria you set. Mat brought up the point that certain photographers (and I think he and I are in this group, as is Marc) are willing to pay more for Leica equipment not just for the lenses, but also for design and usability of the camera system. As professionals, we use the cameras constantly, and for some of us the difference in cost between an A7rII and an SL is not a deal breaker when you consider that this is the main tool that we will have to use for the next two to four years (minimum...I would guess). Currently I use the S system and the Alpha series cameras (primarily for video and for a compact alternative to the S for travel), and as much as I respect the Sonys for their capabilities, I am frustrated by them in use. I simply do not get on with handling them, whereas the S and other Leica cameras I have used just feel "right". If the SL can meet or exceed the Sonys on the video front, I would likely sell the Alphas for the SL. Selling the A7S, A7Rii and two lenses would cover the cost of the SL, which I could use with S and M lenses that I already have. So at least for my personal calculation, the SL could make sense. I am not sold on it yet, but certain things about it are very promising to me, and quite to me as someone who works as a photographer:

    1. The interface and ergonomics appear excellent, as they seem to be based on the S system, which I use and know to be superb. I can operate my entire S kit in -10C with heavy mittens on, and just as easily do so in the studio for when I do artwork reproduction. The alpha series really suffers here, at least to my mind. Poor battery life, cluttered and illogical menu systems and lockouts on certain settings in different modes...the keys are not easy to operate surely with gloves or in the dark etc.

    2. The video seems to have been well thought out, and while Sony is a hugely impressive performer in this regard, the SL bests it on paper so far, at least in terms of signal fidelity and resolution. It will do Cinema 4k and will output 10bit 4:2:2 to an external recorder, such as the Pix-E5H that I am using.

    3. The VF and speed of operation seem significantly better...the A7S and A7Rii both take several long seconds to turn on...

    4. The SL looks to do a better job with the lenses that I currently own. I have a number of older M lenses, alongside my S lenses. The A7Rii and A7S do not really function well with my M lenses below 75mm. They can be useful for video, particularly in super 35 mode, but you have to use them fairly carefully...that does not appear to be the case on the SL, which is good news. The prospect of using the S lenses with AF on the SL also seems quite attractive, even if they will be fairly bulky. At the moment, it is not possible to use the S lenses on Sony, so being able to use them for video and stills on a body with better ISO and video capabilities than my 006 is quite attractive.

    In any case, I don't mean to pick on you, and I do agree that the SL is not going to be a persuasive camera for most professionals who are not already heavily invested in Leica gear, but at the same time it IS an interesting camera that will persuade some professionals...we are quite a diverse group...there is room for all sorts. I know a successful professional here that does much of her work on a Nikon F3 shooting clothing adverts and weddings on film, and in the same market I do artwork reproduction, editorial and sell prints taken using the S. To each their own.
    4K video is S35 only.

    I don't think the Leica is beating the Sony A7r2 for video.

    I am quite certain that it does not match the A7s2 for video.

    -Bill
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    All very reasonable responses Stuart, nothing wrong with being passionate about things Speedgraphic but you may have slipped in to something a little beyond reasonable, the camera isn't for you, that's clear but your reasons for not liking it have no baring on those that do, surely. Like Stuart, I have an extensive S kit, the 006 is now backup to my 007 but the SL could possibly do a far better job, the 24-90 in addition to what I have now and it's done. I can appreciate that we are different but really wish you'd chill out just a little, move on if you are so vehemently opposed.

    Pro's and amateurs all have different lists of requirements, it's not reasonable to expect yours to be universal, same as I don't expect mine to be, it's just a box with a sensor and a lens mount, what we do with it is the most important thing.

    Mat

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I am curious how you came to that conclusion when you have not seen video from it yet, and we know very little to nothing about its implementation, and you blithely disregard its superior specs for resolution and signal fidelity over hdmi? You may well be right, but I think it is a little early to tell...the fact that it is super 35 only is true, but the super 35 is more usable and higher quality on the A7rII as well. In any case, it will be interesting to see how it fares. As I tried to indicate in my post, it is a whole system affair, and for most that will lead them to Sony, but for me the SL could be persuasive. The S 007 also offers some of this functionality, so I may consider that as well, but a hybrid kit of the S 006 and SL is looking quite good to me now.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Stuart, if you are a reviewer, all the points you list might make sense. But as a potential switcher from Sony to Leica, the expectations do not sound good.

    Battery life (check out the numbers out there) isn't grand for the SL (same tech, similar restraints).

    Video will not be better than your A7s.

    Start up times may be slightly better and EVF signifcantly better although the LCD stays put.

    Your old M lens will not do any better on the SL than on your A7r II. Only the mdern M lenses are likely to do well on any modern digital camera.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Oh Leica says it's a pro cam. That's settles it. Also any camera with an EVF allows you to preview the final image as do the SLRs in live view for tripod situations. That's why EVFs are so great, but Leica is not the first to employ them.
    The SL's EyeRes EVF sets a new standard. Yes, this suggestion alone is enough to convince the die hard OVF proponents.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    1. Like every camera you can buy right now. 2. Completely crippled by the AF system. 3. Sure.

    The rest are complete conjecture on your part. None of these products exist and I haven't seen confirmation that the SL is even compatible with the CS function on S lenses. If everything you say comes to fruition then they'll have an interesting functional system...but so far it's an A7 copy with only one variable aperture zoom lens and a 50/1.4 a whole year away. Your last assumptions also assume that no-one else will have such feature integration. They surely will, especially the ones chasing video. For my part, DSLR video is becoming less and less relevant since Canon, Sony, Black Magic, Digital Bolex, and others have far surpassed DSLR or mirrorless capabilities with hardly any relevant price premium.
    For another maker to come up with a similar solution, there has to be an in family division (like Sinar) that is experienced with view cameras that are not dummy with communication interface... Now, as far as I know there isn't another maker that has such a division under control, nor I think that they bought Sinar to "just have it" or loose more money with it... OTOH, the recently introduced mini view cameras is the only section of the particular market currently that has worthwhile sales (but lucks communication interface)... So, it's not a guessing to predict that Sinar will enter the "mini view camera" market soon... it's rather a safe prediction (because otherwise it would prove Leica stupid not to take advantage of the ability they have), nor there is a reason to not use the (ready) interface they have on their view cameras... Actually there should be such a solution (SL 601 for back - S mount on the front standard) offered with the P3 soon...

    In fact, after the T series was introduced, I noticed the size of the mount and the shallow depth of the sensor position and I asked Leica people if there is a FF sensor planned for it as to use instead of an MFDB on Sinars... I got a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig smile as a reply... (which usually implies a definite "yes")

    Now, having the LS activated using the S adapter doesn't require any particular new technology that is not known to them... In fact it would be (again) stupid of them to exclude it since it costs nothing and can only add them sales... As for the video camera plans they have, this is clear since they also claim full compatibility with the Leica pro lenses for cinema (again by offering a dedicated adapter for that)...

    But despite all the above, one must think that Leica is run from people that have a much better sense of photographer's needs than P1 or Hasselblad or others that are run from marketeers that only do fatal mistakes by closing their systems and restrict their usability (that's why they made the C-adapter & H-adapter while others would think that "this way we will loose lens sales")...

    I don't see how one would expect a company to restrict its camera (obvious) capabilities thus reducing sales and diminishing the abilities of the system to only a "Sony competitor"... They aren't stupid to stay with that, are they?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I think if you're going to rely on a facial expression as evidence of something, you should post a photo of the smiler.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    I think if you're going to rely on a facial expression as evidence of something, you should post a photo of the smiler.
    Yet, here you are with a FF mirrorless that can be used instead of an MFDB on a view camera better than any other camera on the market... Now if one thinks that they designed it like this by accident and bought Sinar at the same time not to use it on it (and thus throwing away easy money)... Certainly thinks of them as if they are stupid....

    EDIT: ...And if another thinks that they also make the lenses and the interface ready for the SL-601 to perform great on their view cameras and they'll ...refuse (!!!) to do use them (throwing more sales out of the window), ...he certainly thinks of them as being twice as stupid... Last thing they are though...
    Last edited by T.Dascalos; 21st October 2015 at 13:46. Reason: EDIT

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    I am curious how you came to that conclusion when you have not seen video from it yet, and we know very little to nothing about its implementation, and you blithely disregard its superior specs for resolution and signal fidelity over hdmi? You may well be right, but I think it is a little early to tell...the fact that it is super 35 only is true, but the super 35 is more usable and higher quality on the A7rII as well. In any case, it will be interesting to see how it fares. As I tried to indicate in my post, it is a whole system affair, and for most that will lead them to Sony, but for me the SL could be persuasive. The S 007 also offers some of this functionality, so I may consider that as well, but a hybrid kit of the S 006 and SL is looking quite good to me now.
    I'm not saying it blithely at all.

    IBIS, Gorgeous Full Frame 4K, and insane lowlight performance handily trumps the typical HDMI Panasonic sensor specs, cue up the GH4, you refer to on this one. There is no way someone can make a blanket statement that the SL equals the A7s2 on video overall.

    I doubt it beats the A7r2 either but I would withhold judgement on that until I see the output. After all, the A7r2 has poop for Full Frame 4K video.

    None of that keeps the SL from being right for you or anyone else. It may clobber the A7s2 for your personal use because of gear you already own or other factors.

    -Bill

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    After one day we've had a web-full of opinions in addition to some actual reviews! So far it seems opinions differ mainly in terms of posters' expectations of what an SL was expected to be:

    1. A small, light, mirrorless camera – in effect a Q with interchangeable lenses? From that standpoint it's a failure in relation to expectations/suppositions, because that's just not what it is.

    2. A major improvement over other mirrorless cameras, and obviously 'worth it'? This seems to be where opinions (in the absence of experience) differ most, with pros and cons about body and lens heft, ergonomics, AF, 'features,' lens quality, video, legacy lens holdings and new lens lines, mega-megapixels, articulated screens, whatever. All the sites I've sampled say something about the A7rII / SL comparison, and it looks like the weight of opinion is that Leica didn't step far enough ahead for the SL to be clearly worth it to many or most of those expecting (2).

    3. Something new and larger, at the old R level but below the S level; a pro-DSLR-killer or at least a 'contenda'? Maybe so, but you can't tell until it becomes a 'system.' In the meantime it seems useful especially to those with legacy R glass, or those wanting a backup for Leica S.

    And after one day of reading I've arrived at My Own Definitive Opinion:

    I was hoping for (1) or (2), not particularly (3). It's not (1), and as (2), it's not worth it to me, for two reasons:

    a. At present I find nothing really disappointing about my A7rII and mix of Leica M, Zeiss Sony, and Zeiss Contax lenses. It doesn't handle as nicely as Leica Ms, but it's quite competent in the under-medium-format sphere.

    b. Looking ahead, I'm concerned about the time-line that makes Leica products almost obsolescent by the time you can get your hands on them. It takes Leica so long to produce what they've announced that I see no reason to acquire a body in this series now. By the time they produce the AF primes or the shorter zoom that I'd need, the initial SL would probably be 'yesterday' in terms of what Leica or the rest of the industry would be offering. So looking ahead, it's wait-and-see. I hope to handle or try one, before I let any facts get in the way of my opinion.

    Kirk
    Last edited by thompsonkirk; 21st October 2015 at 15:58.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I might wait for the Leica A7r
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    All very reasonable responses Stuart, nothing wrong with being passionate about things Speedgraphic but you may have slipped in to something a little beyond reasonable, the camera isn't for you, that's clear but your reasons for not liking it have no baring on those that do, surely. Like Stuart, I have an extensive S kit, the 006 is now backup to my 007 but the SL could possibly do a far better job, the 24-90 in addition to what I have now and it's done. I can appreciate that we are different but really wish you'd chill out just a little, move on if you are so vehemently opposed.

    Pro's and amateurs all have different lists of requirements, it's not reasonable to expect yours to be universal, same as I don't expect mine to be, it's just a box with a sensor and a lens mount, what we do with it is the most important thing.

    Mat
    Amen!

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I might wait for the Leica A7r
    Jono, already reviewed it a few years ago.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Does anyone know if this camera will stop down R lenses when the eventual adapter arrives? In that case it could be considered a true 'R solution'.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Yeah and it's worth noting that the SL only does 11fps with fixed AF and AEL (worthless) With continuous AF active you only get 7fps. So there's quite a gap between this camera and Canikon which does 11-12fps effortlessly. That's what the proven hybrid PDAF systems provide.
    I find it baffling that considering this is one of the big selling points of the SL, not one of the Leica appointed reviewers presented any images showing the effectiveness when shooting action at 11 fps. Their images are all of stationary subjects which could just as well have been taken with a Sigma DP1.
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