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Thread: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Just to check in . I was thinking of making some popcorn. Anyone want some.


    Sinar the last I looked they where out of business.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Perhaps it's just me, but if I am going to spend money at a nosebleed level for a product, I expect it to offer extraordinary capabilities, not run of the mill capabilities. If I buy a Ferrari or a Porsche GTS, I expect state of the art capabilities in straight line performance, cornering ability, braking, etc. The SL simply doesn't. A 24 MP FF sensor at that price point is like buying a Ferrari for $200k with a 6 cylinder engine that puts out 240 hp. The only reason for it is that Leica did not want to encroach on the 37.5 MP sensor of its S lineup. The SL does not break any new ground in terms of its capabilities. The only new ground it breaks is in the sheer size and weight of the body and lenses for a mirrorless camera. If you think the SL 24-90 zoom is gargantuan, have a look at the next zoom lens for the SL: http://www.dpreview.com/files/p/arti..._ASPH_top.jpeg. Are they serious? Did it not occur to them that the success of the Sony A7 series of cameras was about packaging state of the art capabilities in a groundbreaking small form factor? Did it not occur to them that there are large numbers of photographers who really have no interest in carrying around heavy equipment? These photographers have done it over the years out of necessity in order to achieve the technical performance that they want/need for their craft, but they don't WANT to carry around 10 pound dumbbells on a hike or on a walk around a city or for travel.
    To me, Leica has missed the boat here. What they should have done is come out with a mirrorless camera with the same small and light form factor as the Sony A7 but with an intelligent and elegant menu system, put a 50 MP sensor in it, and have a full line of slow, light manual focus lenses that are F/2.8 or F/4, cost a bundle and offer Otus level performance. Too bad.
    hcubell
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Does anyone know if this camera will stop down R lenses when the eventual adapter arrives? In that case it could be considered a true 'R solution'.

    I have not seen that point being addressed.
    I know many folks really want that.
    For me that wouldn't be enough to give up 42 MP and IBIS of the A7r2 though.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I find it baffling that considering this is one of the big selling points of the SL, not one of the Leica appointed reviewers presented any images showing the effectiveness when shooting action at 11 fps. Their images are all of stationary subjects which could just as well have been taken with a Sigma DP1.
    Not surprising. How many people who buy the SL will actually shoot 11 fps with it?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I find it baffling that considering this is one of the big selling points of the SL, not one of the Leica appointed reviewers presented any images showing the effectiveness when shooting action at 11 fps. Their images are all of stationary subjects which could just as well have been taken with a Sigma DP1.
    Quatro not DP1.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Case in point . I just heard from a client that I shot wind turbines with. I shot it with my A7rII 42 mpx piece of crap that I keep hearing about and guess what they printed a image 8 FOOT x 21 Foot( and its cropped) for a wall entrance and my client is thrilled plus she said she can see every detail in it. Oh and i shot it handheld. 24 mpx I would be giving them back there money. LOL

    Im not so sure Im joking about the 24mpx. I need bigger and for the value proposition that I seek the Sony wins. I shot it with the Batis 85mm too. 1200 dollars

    That job almost paid for my camera. Yes I make my money back but here I do it far faster and I'm banking a profit now.

    Back to making popcorn. Bottom line we all make choices we all have budgets and we all have certain needs we need to fill. Seriously if it was the same 42mpx I would have a different opinion.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't get the "this is expensive" argument. For a professional photographer who buys this camera and throws it into the dustbin after 150,000 exposures, the cost would be $0.05 per click. A typical event would for me equal a maximum of 2,000 clicks, which would then sum up to a camera cost of $100. Lens cost would be much lower, but let's say that other "hardware" costs are $100 too, and we are up to the grand sum of $200. If my income from photography can't cover that level of cost, I should look for other work (which I have, so I'm not a full time photographer anymore). For smaller jobs that require fewer exposure, portraiture for example, the mathematics look even more favourable.

    Backup is of course an issue, but if this proves to be a reliable camera, a Leica T would be a great backup, although a separate WA lens would be needed to compensate for the crop factor.

    Some claim that 24MP isn't sufficient, and that's fair enough, but I also think it's fair to say that users of the most common DSLR brand in the world, the one called Canon, haven't had access even to 24MP until very recently. Still, several of them have been able to make a living from their somewhat inferior cameras
    "Expensive" is relative to a lot of things, including income, expenses, and the other equipment options out there. The SL is without doubt relatively expensive when compared with similar options from Canon, Nikon and Sony. I wish I could say the camera costs just $100 per event, but that calculation gets complicated by the relative costs of other options.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post


    Sinar the last I looked they where out of business.
    Hardly the case....

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yevgeny NP View Post
    My belief is that the adapters shall be free with the camera, which will be shipped with one heavy zoom.
    Nothing is free with Leica.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    as an S owner, i want to know how fast does it focus the S lenses!
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    as an S owner, i want to know how fast does it focus the S lenses!
    That's easy to answer... It should be as fast as it focuses with the SL-601 dedicated lenses (for the same lens speed & focal length), I say this because AF speed and accuracy relies only to the camera's AF system... My C645 lenses for instance, focus as fast as Leica S lenses on an S (via the S adapter) and as fast as Nikkor AF-S lenses on my Nikons (via the JAS adapter)... They are slow on their mother camera though because the AF system is ancient on the Contax.
    Last edited by T.Dascalos; 21st October 2015 at 17:00. Reason: edit

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Not surprising. How many people who buy the SL will actually shoot 11 fps with it?
    Sure, but my point remains. Considering this is one of the big selling points, you would expect at least one test showing how it fares.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    as an S owner, i want to know how fast does it focus the S lenses!
    According to Jono's review the AF of the T lenses on the SL is much faster than it is with the T itself, so I would expect the AF of S lenses on the SL also to be faster...
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Nothing is free with Leica.
    There's always a first ... the grip is free.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Technically it's a new lens system but in a common mount similar to how the E mount and FE mount are different systems but use a common mount. Maybe a branding strategy of naming the SL the "FT" (for FF T mount) or "TL" (for T mount Large) would make more sense from a system standpoint to many. I think SL (or S light as Jono mentioned) makes sense from a marketing/pricing standpoint in that this is a legitimate S system backup and a completely credible R solution (FINALLY) for R users.

    As an M backup body I still think that a Leica Q that could mount lenses would make a great future Leica ML. People still want a camera like that as well.
    I am not trying to pick an argument, but I have been happliy using my R lenses (Once Leica could get the M-R adapter out to the public which was 15 months from Photokina). What is not credible about the M240 platform using R lenses. IMHO, just because the EVF is crap on the M240 and superb on the SL does not bring credibility to the R lens solution.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    There's always a first ... the grip is free.
    So is the EVF....

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Thats what I think is coming down the pike next. A Q type body with interchangable lenses who's native mount is the Leica M mount. It will incorporate a state of the art EVF or maybe a hybrid OVF/EVF and I suppose either a line of AF M mount lenses or possibly AF assist light in viewfinder. Whether the body will be considered as part of the M line or not, hard to say as crystal ball just went cloudy (running out to get more Windex as we speak ).

    Dave (D&A)
    You could be right about the M mount, but somehow it just seems to me it would better balanced using a T mount. Then we could use the T-M adapter for manual M lenses.Time will tell.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    You could be right about the M mount, but somehow it just seems to me it would better balanced using a T mount. Then we could use the T-M adapter for manual M lenses.Time will tell.
    The M mount is too far from the sensor and too narrow for the camera to be used on view cameras instead of an MFDB... This was a crucial factor in the new design as its main purpose is not to provide an M replacement, but to be integrated in a complete professional system that would be compatible with different photographic tasks (instead of an MFDB on a view camera included).

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Does anyone know if this camera will stop down R lenses when the eventual adapter arrives? In that case it could be considered a true 'R solution'.
    Reid said he had talked with Leica about implementing this feature for the adapter that is currently due out in 12 months. Just don't hold your breath if the M-R adapter time table is followed- 15 months.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    The M mount is too far from the sensor and too narrow for the camera to be used on view cameras instead of an MFDB... This was a crucial factor in the new design as its main purpose is not to provide an M replacement, but to be integrated in a complete professional system that would be compatible with different photographic tasks (instead of an MFDB on a view camera included).
    This topic is about what the Q ILC might use for a mount if one even comes out.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Are you out of your mind? We do not throw our cameras in the dustbin after 150k shots, we shoot them until they shutter must be replaced, and then keep shooting them. Many of my peers have not seen cause to dump the D3S. And then you have to put this abomination in the context of ROI. There is nothing the SL can do that a D810 isn't doing better for a working photographer (i'll leave video out). For the cost of one SL you get 2 bodies. For the cost of one variable aperture lens you get 2 pro zooms or primes. I may be able to afford the SL but it would be completely absurd! I'd be throwing money down the toilet and putting my clients at risk because I chose to work with an unproven system! Considering I've shot every format from 35mm to 8x10 & MFD backs I know what to expect from various cameras, and there is 0 chance that there will be enough mojo in the SL to differentiate it seriously from a Nikon and a good lens. As for back up, if I pulled out a Leica T after my SL went down I'd be thrown out of the studio! "Oh hey guys, my pro system is busted but this polished hunk of aluminum with a touch screen will be completely fine".

    There seems to be confusion over the point that pro photographers can afford any piece of gear because we're all making money hand over foot and a tax break gives us all our investment back. Countless studios have closed over the last decade, photo journalist staffs have been fired en masse from major news institutions, and amateurs have flooded the market sweeping up all low end work or making it simply non-viable. This is a business. There is no ROI for this 1%er braggart machine. Leica makes some wonderful cameras, they really do, but lets not pretend that they're serving the industry. There is nothing wrong with that, but don't kid yourself.
    So if the camera still has some value after 150k shots, it's even cheaper to run then

    Yes, I can buy two D810 instead of an SL, and probably a D7200 too. And maybe even the D810 offers superior image quality. It's very good. I know that because I use it every day. Still, the value lost per day or per click wouldn't make much difference to my photography budget. Airline tickets, food and other costs do.

    But if I want to do video (I do, that's part of my work), if I want to do manual focusing (I do, most of my lenses are manual) or if I want a long reach standard zoom that is (hopefully) better than the Nikkor 24-120mm, it doesn't help me that the D810 is half the price. As much as I love the Nikon, even a Panasonic G7 does a better job in certain areas. The SL, obvioulsy even more so.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Just to check in . I was thinking of making some popcorn. Anyone want some.


    Sinar the last I looked they where out of business.
    Not according to this website:

    http://www.sinar.ch/

    But some popcorn would be great. Just attach them to an email.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    I'm not saying it blithely at all.

    IBIS, Gorgeous Full Frame 4K, and insane lowlight performance handily trumps the typical HDMI Panasonic sensor specs, cue up the GH4, you refer to on this one. There is no way someone can make a blanket statement that the SL equals the A7s2 on video overall.

    I doubt it beats the A7r2 either but I would withhold judgement on that until I see the output. After all, the A7r2 has poop for Full Frame 4K video.

    None of that keeps the SL from being right for you or anyone else. It may clobber the A7s2 for your personal use because of gear you already own or other factors.

    -Bill
    The problem with the A7s2 is that it's a 12MP camera. I'd be surprised if the SL isn't better than the A7R2 for video, but we obviously don't know that yet, although some initial video reviews are already very enthusiastic. What's problematic using A7 cameras for photo and video, is that one needs two bodies to get optimal quality for both. Although that kind of includes a backup body "for free", they are different enough for that not being the case entirely as well.

    But that is one of the areas where these two camera system differ, and that's a good thing. People do have different needs, and I don't doubt for a second that Sony will outsell Leica at a rate of 10 : 1 or better. But if I could choose, I'm quite sure that I'd go for the German gadget, particularly since I've tried and rejected the Sonys so many times.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    The lens flexibility of the SL seems understated...how long before someone makes a nikon or canon lens adapter to fit this Leica?

    I can appreciate the hi-res viewfinder but I'm missing the point of this camera.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    So if the camera still has some value after 150k shots, it's even cheaper to run then

    Yes, I can buy two D810 instead of an SL, and probably a D7200 too. And maybe even the D810 offers superior image quality. It's very good. I know that because I use it every day. Still, the value lost per day or per click wouldn't make much difference to my photography budget. Airline tickets, food and other costs do.

    But if I want to do video (I do, that's part of my work), if I want to do manual focusing (I do, most of my lenses are manual) or if I want a long reach standard zoom that is (hopefully) better than the Nikkor 24-120mm, it doesn't help me that the D810 is half the price. As much as I love the Nikon, even a Panasonic G7 does a better job in certain areas. The SL, obvioulsy even more so.
    yes Jurgen,
    but if you would want to use a nice native 35 or 58 mm f1.4 lens with AF or if you wanted to shoot in CAF it wouldnt help to have a SL even if it is the double price.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I am not trying to pick an argument, but I have been happliy using my R lenses (Once Leica could get the M-R adapter out to the public which was 15 months from Photokina). What is not credible about the M240 platform using R lenses. IMHO, just because the EVF is crap on the M240 and superb on the SL does not bring credibility to the R lens solution.
    The ergonomics with the M aren't great to me without a half case even with M-mount lenses but I have large hands. IMO the SL would be a much better option for the R lenses.

    I had another thought that would make this camera a bit easier to swallow... If it were a full on 24mp "S light" with the same sized medium format system. I think this would make it an easier pill to swallow. There would already be a system of lenses and it would give S users a cheaper backup that offered "fat pixels." On some level it would be a bargain and a replacement for the need to put out S-E cameras.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I find it baffling that considering this is one of the big selling points of the SL, not one of the Leica appointed reviewers presented any images showing the effectiveness when shooting action at 11 fps. Their images are all of stationary subjects which could just as well have been taken with a Sigma DP1.
    Mine thing that I found with many high frame rate cameras is that the shutter might operate that fast but good luck actually getting most of your burst in focus in less than optimum light. This was very obvious with my A77 and several pro APS-C Canon bodies I used prior to the 7D.

    I think the lack of images are by design and maybe the feature wasn't up to snuff on pre production bodies. Sometimes what isn't said is telling. Truthfully it's not a feature that I'd probably use often anyway if I owned the camera.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    Does anyone know if this camera will stop down R lenses when the eventual adapter arrives? In that case it could be considered a true 'R solution'.
    I've asked this question to my dealer who happens to be in Germany right now; the answer he got was "TBD". I think the the forthcoming R adapter (Leica's website say Autumn 2016) will read the ROM contacts, but I doubt it will have a mechanical actuator for stopping down the aperture blades.

    Implementing the aperture actuator seems like it would be expensive assuming all the costs are divided across 5,000 adapters (how many R owners are going to buy a SL and then also an R adapter?) From a technical standpoint, getting the aperture timing to work suggest a fairly deep implementation too.

    I also asked if Leica still does 3-Cam to ROM upgrades and they do. The price is ~$350 USD per lens. If I hear anything else, I'll post an update.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?


    SLshot by All The Websters, review photo, not by me.

    Cry, bash, whine, lament all you wish.

    It's not for me either, but I know an incredibly built and minutely thought out camera when I see one. Many features put it way ahead of the Sony: EVF, 4K (ouch, Panda, we know that's behind most decisions in the r2), stepped focus MAG, friendly to film lenses, incredible weather proofing (take it to gulf of alaska in winter, without boat), and many many small beautiful touches. MP, no, one Sony model is ahead.

    And for once Sony can claim they don't have the least AF lens options LOL

    But the herd says: "ugh, big shiny thing, looks like my Sony, costs money, evil Leica, and it's friends insult my Sony!" Charge!!!

    It doesn't matter a whit what 99% of us think of it. It's not a mass market camera. They will sell every one they can make. For very good reasons.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    In reference to Sinar, we've got some short memories here... Leica bought the outstanding shares about 2 years ago (at the time Leica already ~50% of the company) --- Sinar Purchased.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Black View Post
    In reference to Sinar, we've got some short memories here... Leica bought the outstanding shares about 2 years ago (at the time Leica already ~50% of the company) --- Sinar Purchased.
    Sorry I don't follow leicas purchases but Sinar has been very quiet here in the states as I only know one dealer that sold there products. Very little at that.

    More to the point these cams on a tech cam are limited to mostly normal and longer focal lengths.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    So if the camera still has some value after 150k shots, it's even cheaper to run then

    Yes, I can buy two D810 instead of an SL, and probably a D7200 too. And maybe even the D810 offers superior image quality. It's very good. I know that because I use it every day. Still, the value lost per day or per click wouldn't make much difference to my photography budget. Airline tickets, food and other costs do.

    But if I want to do video (I do, that's part of my work), if I want to do manual focusing (I do, most of my lenses are manual) or if I want a long reach standard zoom that is (hopefully) better than the Nikkor 24-120mm, it doesn't help me that the D810 is half the price. As much as I love the Nikon, even a Panasonic G7 does a better job in certain areas. The SL, obvioulsy even more so.
    Well, time to buy one

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    somebody mentioned about samsung is the new leica partner, it seems samsung is shutting the camera business.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    The problem with the A7s2 is that it's a 12MP camera. I'd be surprised if the SL isn't better than the A7R2 for video, but we obviously don't know that yet, although some initial video reviews are already very enthusiastic. What's problematic using A7 cameras for photo and video, is that one needs two bodies to get optimal quality for both. Although that kind of includes a backup body "for free", they are different enough for that not being the case entirely as well.

    But that is one of the areas where these two camera system differ, and that's a good thing. People do have different needs, and I don't doubt for a second that Sony will outsell Leica at a rate of 10 : 1 or better. But if I could choose, I'm quite sure that I'd go for the German gadget, particularly since I've tried and rejected the Sonys so many times.
    No doubt the 12 MP is a deal breaker for some hybrid camera users. And the A7r2 4K video is crippled in FF mode.

    I actually am excited about the SL and look forward to positive reviews, high quality stills with robust image files and, yes, great videos. My involvement in the Leica ecosystem has dwindled to the point of only having historical equipment and I am happy that way. If I still had current digital Leica gear the SL would be my obsession.

    Even if I were still heavily involved in Nikon, with the large camera bodies, I might consider the SL for its excellent hybrid capabilities and robust build.

    -Bill

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    No doubt the 12 MP is a deal breaker for some hybrid camera users. And the A7r2 4K video is crippled in FF mode.

    I actually am excited about the SL and look forward to positive reviews, high quality stills with robust image files and, yes, great videos. My involvement in the Leica ecosystem has dwindled to the point of only having historical equipment and I am happy that way. If I still had current digital Leica gear the SL would be my obsession.

    Even if I were still heavily involved in Nikon, with the large camera bodies, I might consider the SL for its excellent hybrid capabilities and robust build.

    -Bill
    How is the A7RII crippled in 4k mode?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    How is the A7RII crippled in 4k mode?
    It is crippled in FF 4K mode with decreased resolution and more moire and artifacts. It is very good in its S35 4K mode.

    The SL shoots 4K only in S35 mode and is likely high quality.

    For either camera Speedboosters may significantly compensate for S35 and bring them closer to FF.

    The A7s2 shoots 4K only in FF mode. And it is beautiful. After shooting with it tonight I temporarily like it even better than my A7r2. I'll have to play with the stills and videos more to make a final determination.

    -Bill
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  38. #338
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohnri View Post
    It is crippled in FF 4K mode with decreased resolution and more moire and artifacts. It is very good in its S35 4K mode.

    The SL shoots 4K only in S35 mode and is likely high quality.

    For either camera Speedboosters may significantly compensate for S35 and bring them closer to FF.

    The A7s2 shoots 4K only in FF mode. And it is beautiful. After shooting with it tonight I temporarily like it even better than my A7r2. I'll have to play with the stills and videos more to make a final determination.

    -Bill
    I would be interested to see an actual comparison from you showing how the A7RII is crippled in 4K, since Cinema5d has a different view (based on real use & lab tests):

    "What we could see when comparing the two modes is that indeed the Super35 Crop Mode is very nice and a tad sharper and cleaner than the Full Frame Mode. But we were also surprised to see that the Full Frame Mode is actually not bad at all.

    In fact I would say it can easily be scaled down to 3K or even go as 4K and look very nice. Itís really not so easy to tell the difference between the two modes so Full Frame must be good. Aliasing is not strong in full frame mode, there is a tiny bit here and there, but to be honest itís hard to find.

    So if you need the best quality you will want to go with crop mode, but if youíre not a pixel peeper than Full Frame Mode will serve you just as well.

    In comparison to the Sony A7S in 4K itís really really hard to tell the difference and I dare you to try. The most apparent difference is the A7S running at a base ISO of 3200 and the Sony A7RII running at a base ISO of 800. You can see the grain and compression / noise reduction artefacts on the A7S on moving images. The Sony A7RII looks a bit cleaner. As a still they look virtually identical."


    https://www.cinema5d.com/sony-a7rii-a7s-lab/

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Looks Ok to me -and will probably be my upgrade from M9 - just for the heck of it. Should be available - what 2nd quarter 2016?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Sorry I don't follow leicas purchases but Sinar has been very quiet here in the states as I only know one dealer that sold there products. Very little at that.

    More to the point these cams on a tech cam are limited to mostly normal and longer focal lengths.
    All Sinar's distribution is made through the Leica dealers after the company's shares passed to Leica. The latest Leica mount (the T-mount) was designed to accept a FF sensor in a way that if used on view camera the light perception would be totally unobscured and as such the camera could provide an alternative to the (expensive) use of an MFDB on a view camera with lenses of narrower diameter image circle than the ones needed to cover the image area of an MFDB...

    As for WAs, the Sinar S-line goes down to 24mm and so does the (interface compatible) Hasselblad - H 24mm, but wider image circle lenses of the DSLR kind (like the Canon 17mm TSE & the 24mm TSE or the Nikkor 24mm PC or the Samyang 24mm PC and some more) provide enough image circle as to allow movements on a 36x24mm sensor.

  41. #341
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    There maybe is a fun opportunity to get a tilt/shift option with the new SL:
    Put a S to T adapter then a H to S adapter and you can mount HC lenses on the Leica SL.
    Take the Hasselblad HTS Tilt Shift mount and remove the optical part (+1.5 extender effect cancelled) and use the HC 24mm.
    If that works, you get an SL with a very high quality 24mm T-S option, if cost is no issue for you

    ps: no idea if would work, maybe it isn't possible to remove the optical part of the HTS and have an image in focus, but that's funny anyway.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    [QUOTE=uhoh7;665132]
    It's not for me either, but I know an incredibly built and minutely thought out camera when I see one. Many features put it way ahead of the Sony: EVF, 4K (ouch, Panda, we know that's behind most decisions in the r2), stepped focus MAG, friendly to film lenses, incredible weather proofing (take it to gulf of alaska in winter, without boat), and many many small beautiful touches. MP, no, one Sony model is ahead.


    If I may say so, that is 2 Sony models with the release of the RX1R2.

    Please all keep in mind the only reason to many that bthis model does not have more MP is due to the factbthat the flagship Leica S has but 37.5 MP and some insiders say they cannot easily resign the sensor without some lens rework too.

  43. #343
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    [QUOTE=algrove;665182]
    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    It's not for me either, but I know an incredibly built and minutely thought out camera when I see one. Many features put it way ahead of the Sony: EVF, 4K (ouch, Panda, we know that's behind most decisions in the r2), stepped focus MAG, friendly to film lenses, incredible weather proofing (take it to gulf of alaska in winter, without boat), and many many small beautiful touches. MP, no, one Sony model is ahead.


    If I may say so, that is 2 Sony models with the release of the RX1R2.

    Please all keep in mind the only reason to many that bthis model does not have more MP is due to the factbthat the flagship Leica S has but 37.5 MP and some insiders say they cannot easily resign the sensor without some lens rework too.
    Who are actually the people saying this? Who are these insiders? Would really like to learn to know them

    I can believe many things, but the argument that S lenses would need a redesign for higher res is absurd. I think that these lenses have the most resolving power and reserves compared to others, maybe the Schneider Kreuznach lenses for the Phase bodies have more, but not even sure about that.

    The only reason for the current sensor resolutions in the Leica lineup are, that they still tend to believe that these resolutions are enough (this actually is debatable) and that even with the most tricky sensor tech implemented the range of 24MP is still the sweetspot for FF and 37MP the sweetspot for Leica MF.

    I would like more vendors to stay in these ranges and rather improve other features like overall IQ, AF responsiveness, etc., etc, instead of increasing MP count (which almost no-one needs)!

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Mine thing that I found with many high frame rate cameras is that the shutter might operate that fast but good luck actually getting most of your burst in focus in less than optimum light. This was very obvious with my A77 and several pro APS-C Canon bodies I used prior to the 7D.

    I think the lack of images are by design and maybe the feature wasn't up to snuff on pre production bodies. Sometimes what isn't said is telling. Truthfully it's not a feature that I'd probably use often anyway if I owned the camera.
    Your post reminds me of a review I read last night where they were trying to confirm the 11 fps number and commented it did do that number for them, however very few images were in focus.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I had a fiddle with the SL and 24-90 this morning and boy did it ever feel nice. Too big and heavy with that lens for me to use as a travel camera, and not enough pixels either, but it felt so damned sexy that I nearly threw rationality out of the window. Sadly, sanity flooded back as I was about to place an order and I realized that the A7RII is the more rational choice for my needs. Damn. But I also realized that I REALLY want a great mid range zoom, and the 24-90 feels like it might just be that....
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hiepphotog View Post
    Reading the last few pages, it's quite clear that those that want this camera would not budge on their POV and those that don't see of the point of this camera would continue to do so. It has been very repetitive. Leica is clearly not going to compete with Sony so it doesn't matter. Sony is gunning for Nikon position on the market while Leica is going to serve their own niche.

    However, I do agree with Dre though. Sony got so much flak with their lens size, citing the incompetency of Sony for having thick sensor stack and small diameter mount. Now this camera comes out with ginormous lenses and no one questions why. I guess a big camera (though it's not that much bigger than Sony according to some ) needs a big lens.
    Because you know with Leica creating a big lens. It's going to be one of quality. With Sony, the guarantee isn't there.

  47. #347
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I played with an SL last night. It does focus very fast in dark conditions. It is heavy - not too heavy, but that's just one lens. As for size, the SL+24-90 is almost exactly the same size as a Canon + 24-105/4. For that matter, the SL+90-280 is almost exactly the same size as a Canon + 70-200/2.8, if camerasize.com can be believed.

    BUT

    I found it uncomfortable to hold - the bottom has sharp edges. Maybe with a grip? After all, the A7II is much better with a grip. The S felt hugely better, S+100/2 feels about the same weight as the SL+24-90. Of course, S+30-90 zoom is MUCH heavier.

    The Leica guys made a big deal about it using every Leica lens (it was very easy to focus a 75 Cron in dim light, but the Sonys do that easily, too), but what does that leave for the long end? All MF lenses except the unreleased 90-280. How much will that weigh? OK, people use long R lenses just fine, but now stabilization matters for focusing. I can use a long MF lens on the A7II because I can zoom in on a stabilized view.

    Still thinking this all through. I'd really like to see how the SL handles moving subjects. Mashing the shutter release in burst mode gave one soft frame followed by sharp ones. Not bad.

    Oddly, I came away from the event feeling like an S+24+100 would make more sense. But then adding up the cost makes an (A7rII or 5DSR) + Canon 1Dx + tons of free (by comparison) lenses look even more sensible.

    Here's a nice table: Two SL and three S.


    --Matt
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  48. #348
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Case in point . I just heard from a client that I shot wind turbines with. I shot it with my A7rII 42 mpx piece of crap that I keep hearing about and guess what they printed a image 8 FOOT x 21 Foot( and its cropped) for a wall entrance and my client is thrilled plus she said she can see every detail in it. Oh and i shot it handheld. 24 mpx I would be giving them back there money. LOL

    Im not so sure Im joking about the 24mpx. I need bigger and for the value proposition that I seek the Sony wins. I shot it with the Batis 85mm too. 1200 dollars

    That job almost paid for my camera. Yes I make my money back but here I do it far faster and I'm banking a profit now.

    Back to making popcorn. Bottom line we all make choices we all have budgets and we all have certain needs we need to fill. Seriously if it was the same 42mpx I would have a different opinion.
    Your MP + print assumption is wrong.. Please understand that your A7rII has a marginal increase in print size at best. If you wanted double print sizes, you'd need 100MP. It's an easy test to try on your home printer. I do it with every new camera I buy/test.

    The 20-ish % increase in print size on the A7rII is negated mostly by the fact that the M240 sensor has much better color tonality and native optics that have higher resolving power (and actually work well with the sensor/sensor glass). And yeah I get that for certain applications you can adapt M or Otus or whatever lenses.

    SOOO what real world benefit does the A7rII have, if the only claim to fame is MP?

    I'm not a fan of Sony colors. And UI and ect.. But I have seen EXCELLENT images taken with it that far surpass anything I've done with my cameras. I'm not saying it's not a good camera for some people, it's just not a good camera for me. AND It's not the end all be all because it has a few decent numbers on a spec sheet.

    Personally I was more wowed by my S-006 and 120S then I was with the A7rII. Print and screen.
    And I'm actually thankful the SL comes in 24mp for the work I do.


    And frankly speaking to everybody angry at Leica's pricing.. Yes it sucks, yes it should be cheaper. But I've lost more money trying to LOVE the A7 series cameras, then any other system I've tried. And I tried them ALL.
    I'd take an SL + zoom any day over a A7 that then tempts me to buy an A7r to then buy an A7s (because I needed resolution, then needed the ISO). To then buy a A7II because I wanted IBIS then to buy the A7rII... And I was almost tempted to try the A7sII because why the heck not at this point.. All the wile I'm buying 2-3 bodies because of how/what I shoot. AND the lenses which I was disappointed with (aside from Batis, which I've refrained from buying). AND each time a new type of body came out I sold at least one of my other type of bodies to replace it at less then half the original purchase price.... REALLY crazy stuff. Sony has no F*cks to give about loyalty. They'll just keep crapping out new tech as soon as it's available in one forum or another trying to suck money from people and make headlines. Sure maybe it's my fault for being a sucker. But it would have been nice to get a heads up from Sony about the 7/R/S variants. And I don't even fault them for lack of lenses. I was ok with the 55FE even though it wasn't as good as people claim (mini-otus I think was the term). The 35 was horrid and didn't play well with the sensor. LUCKILY there was an adapter and I was able to shoot my ZA lenses which aren't really that much better, but available as at the time I had an A99 setup out of curiosity.

    IF you want that, but all the while suffer through a horrid UI that STILL hasn't been updated.. Fine, buy a Sony. But honestly at the end of the day you'll either feel jaded that you're using a A7 with none of the cool new features of the other Sony bodies because your camera has no value on the resale market so it's pointless to sell... OR you'll end up spending more money on Sony over the course of three years then you do on a Leica SL + lens which retains value and tries to give you the best possible product they can.

    BUT look.. If you need MP, and want a cheap light mobile body. Nothing wrong with the original A7r... scratch that (shutter vibration issues).. Nothing wrong with the A7rII. And also nothing wrong with the A7s.. It's a beauty. But if I were new to this, I would at this point prefer the A7sII for obvious reasons.


    Again, this isn't meant to bash you, or Sony's cameras.. It's meant to bash Sony's morality. Though as I've been told before by people on this forum. Sony is running a business. So they're gonna do what they gotta do.
    I'm also equally angry at Leica, because though I can see the value of the SL. Not many people will, and that'll hurt me in the long run as a future SL owner. Since the less people that invest in the mount, the less likely we'll get a good variety of quality lenses. Or at least less incentive from Leica if they know they're making a lens for a smaller group of owners.

    That and what's up with Leica's advertising? Those Germans are Sony-deniers. Nobody in Germany have a A7?
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    I played with an SL last night. It does focus very fast in dark conditions. It is heavy - not too heavy, but that's just one lens. As for size, the SL+24-90 is almost exactly the same size as a Canon + 24-105/4. For that matter, the SL+90-280 is almost exactly the same size as a Canon + 70-200/2.8, if camerasize.com can be believed.

    BUT

    I found it uncomfortable to hold - the bottom has sharp edges. Maybe with a grip? After all, the A7II is much better with a grip. The S felt hugely better, S+100/2 feels about the same weight as the SL+24-90. Of course, S+30-90 zoom is MUCH heavier.

    The Leica guys made a big deal about it using every Leica lens (it was very easy to focus a 75 Cron in dim light, but the Sonys do that easily, too), but what does that leave for the long end? All MF lenses except the unreleased 90-280. How much will that weigh? OK, people use long R lenses just fine, but now stabilization matters for focusing. I can use a long MF lens on the A7II because I can zoom in on a stabilized view.

    Still thinking this all through. I'd really like to see how the SL handles moving subjects. Mashing the shutter release in burst mode gave one soft frame followed by sharp ones. Not bad.

    Oddly, I came away from the event feeling like an S+24+100 would make more sense. But then adding up the cost makes an (A7rII or 5DSR) + Canon 1Dx + tons of free (by comparison) lenses look even more sensible.

    Here's a nice table: Two SL and three S.


    --Matt

    Neat thoughts... Glad to hear it works well in low light. One of the main reasons I want it.

    Aren't both zooms OIS? Works well enough in the tele-end for industry leading Canon. I wouldn't expect it to be a problem with the SL. Though no tripod mount on the lens is a bit of an odd choice.

    I'm most looking forward to the S to L adapter.

  50. #350
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Neat thoughts... Glad to hear it works well in low light. One of the main reasons I want it.

    Aren't both zooms OIS? Works well enough in the tele-end for industry leading Canon. I wouldn't expect it to be a problem with the SL. Though no tripod mount on the lens is a bit of an odd choice.

    I'm most looking forward to the S to L adapter.
    Yes, the native SL lenses are OIS, and perhaps the two zoom solution will do do everything. But until the 90-280 comes out, the only long options are MF unstabilized.

    And yes, S lenses would be killer, but I'd hate to lose the sensor real estate given how good those lenses are out to the edge. I certainly get the color consistency point.

    Aside: My two issues with my Sony are AF tracking and color. Maybe the A7rII + Canon 70-200/2.8 solves the AF problem, and maybe a custom profile solves the color problem, but (color anyway) the Leicas give me results I like and a more pleasant shooting experience with less effort. Me? Lazy? Yep. Worth the money?
    Last edited by MGrayson; 22nd October 2015 at 06:18.

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