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Thread: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

  1. #351
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post
    Yes, the native SL lenses are OIS, and perhaps the two zoom solution will do do everything. But until the 90-280 comes out, the only long options are MF unstabilized.

    And yes, S lenses would be killer, but I'd hate to lose the sensor real estate given how good those lenses are out to the edge. I certainly get the color consistency point.

    Aside: My two issues with my Sony are AF tracking and color. Maybe the A7rII + Canon 70-200/2.8 solves the AF problem, and maybe a custom profile solves the color problem, but (color anyway) the Leicas give me results I like and a more pleasant shooting experience with less effort. Me? Lazy? Yep. Worth the money?
    HAHAHA..

    Good new is I just checked, and the tele-zoom has a detachable tripod collar!
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Alot of complaints about the grip. That is a deal-breaker for a heavy camera. Why couldn't they make that right? It's not like they had any size constraints.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Nothing is free with Leica.
    UV IR filters were free when the M8 sensor was found to be faulty and FF Kodak CCD replacements are free when the M9's sensor was found to be faulty.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Reid said he had talked with Leica about implementing this feature for the adapter that is currently due out in 12 months. Just don't hold your breath if the M-R adapter time table is followed- 15 months.
    My A7II's EVF still projects a reasonable image to compose with even when I'm using a 3.0 ND at F11. I'd say stop down is unnecessary with this new EVF tech Leica has.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    I had a fiddle with the SL and 24-90 this morning and boy did it ever feel nice. Too big and heavy with that lens for me to use as a travel camera, and not enough pixels either, but it felt so damned sexy that I nearly threw rationality out of the window. Sadly, sanity flooded back as I was about to place an order and I realized that the A7RII is the more rational choice for my needs. Damn. But I also realized that I REALLY want a great mid range zoom, and the 24-90 feels like it might just be that....
    Just get an R24-90 and adapt it to either an M240 or Sony A7R2.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    As for the AF speed of 11fps. I read a review last night that mentioned they could confirm the 11 fps, but that many images were not in focus. To me in focus is more important than fast fps.

    Guy- I'll take some popcorn while this drama plays out over the next year.

    Trouble with 1 year is the popcorn will get just as stale as waiting for #2 and #3 lens to show up which are considered a native SL lenses. Why buy S lenses which will break the bank or T lenses which will be cropped? And most honest reviewers say the M lernses are best used on an M. Also within the next year who knows what might come out to attract M users to another AF system, like the FF Pentax due out in the Spring.

    I love my M's at 24MP and all my lenses including some R lenses which work just fine on the M. OK, so maybe I will need an AF camera in the not too distant future, but as Leica's customer base ages (like myself) why would they want to go to a heavier camera system. They own M's for RF, size and weight. I guess this is why many M users when wanting AF have opted for the Sony models to date and I for one do not see the majority switching to a heavier new system no matter how much money they have to spend.

    I bought the Leica Q because I like using the original RX-1 so much. I could walk any street anywhere with those 2 bodies and decide which one works the best for me. Since I use the 645Z mainly for landscape, I for one really want an AF small, light weight camera for street use and the SL does not fit into that category for me.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by algrove; 22nd October 2015 at 07:09.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Your MP + print assumption is wrong.. Please understand that your A7rII has a marginal increase in print size at best. If you wanted double print sizes, you'd need 100MP. It's an easy test to try on your home printer. I do it with every new camera I buy/test.

    The 20-ish % increase in print size on the A7rII is negated mostly by the fact that the M240 sensor has much better color tonality and native optics that have higher resolving power (and actually work well with the sensor/sensor glass). And yeah I get that for certain applications you can adapt M or Otus or whatever lenses.

    SOOO what real world benefit does the A7rII have, if the only claim to fame is MP?

    I'm not a fan of Sony colors. And UI and ect.. But I have seen EXCELLENT images taken with it that far surpass anything I've done with my cameras. I'm not saying it's not a good camera for some people, it's just not a good camera for me. AND It's not the end all be all because it has a few decent numbers on a spec sheet.

    Personally I was more wowed by my S-006 and 120S then I was with the A7rII. Print and screen.
    And I'm actually thankful the SL comes in 24mp for the work I do.


    And frankly speaking to everybody angry at Leica's pricing.. Yes it sucks, yes it should be cheaper. But I've lost more money trying to LOVE the A7 series cameras, then any other system I've tried. And I tried them ALL.
    I'd take an SL + zoom any day over a A7 that then tempts me to buy an A7r to then buy an A7s (because I needed resolution, then needed the ISO). To then buy a A7II because I wanted IBIS then to buy the A7rII... And I was almost tempted to try the A7sII because why the heck not at this point.. All the wile I'm buying 2-3 bodies because of how/what I shoot. AND the lenses which I was disappointed with (aside from Batis, which I've refrained from buying). AND each time a new type of body came out I sold at least one of my other type of bodies to replace it at less then half the original purchase price.... REALLY crazy stuff. Sony has no F*cks to give about loyalty. They'll just keep crapping out new tech as soon as it's available in one forum or another trying to suck money from people and make headlines. Sure maybe it's my fault for being a sucker. But it would have been nice to get a heads up from Sony about the 7/R/S variants. And I don't even fault them for lack of lenses. I was ok with the 55FE even though it wasn't as good as people claim (mini-otus I think was the term). The 35 was horrid and didn't play well with the sensor. LUCKILY there was an adapter and I was able to shoot my ZA lenses which aren't really that much better, but available as at the time I had an A99 setup out of curiosity.

    IF you want that, but all the while suffer through a horrid UI that STILL hasn't been updated.. Fine, buy a Sony. But honestly at the end of the day you'll either feel jaded that you're using a A7 with none of the cool new features of the other Sony bodies because your camera has no value on the resale market so it's pointless to sell... OR you'll end up spending more money on Sony over the course of three years then you do on a Leica SL + lens which retains value and tries to give you the best possible product they can.

    BUT look.. If you need MP, and want a cheap light mobile body. Nothing wrong with the original A7r... scratch that (shutter vibration issues).. Nothing wrong with the A7rII. And also nothing wrong with the A7s.. It's a beauty. But if I were new to this, I would at this point prefer the A7sII for obvious reasons.


    Again, this isn't meant to bash you, or Sony's cameras.. It's meant to bash Sony's morality. Though as I've been told before by people on this forum. Sony is running a business. So they're gonna do what they gotta do.
    I'm also equally angry at Leica, because though I can see the value of the SL. Not many people will, and that'll hurt me in the long run as a future SL owner. Since the less people that invest in the mount, the less likely we'll get a good variety of quality lenses. Or at least less incentive from Leica if they know they're making a lens for a smaller group of owners.

    That and what's up with Leica's advertising? Those Germans are Sony-deniers. Nobody in Germany have a A7?

    Uhhhh it sounds like you are never going to be satisfied with anything frankly. I loved my A7 and I love my A7II even more. End of story. I didn't need to try every damn model because I know what my needs are before buying. If you really think the 55 & 35 aren't good enough you're just pixel peeping and you will never be satisfied with your images from any lens made by anyone. Pick a horse and run with it.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Not a plug or anything like that but a fact. The new A7rII is a completely different and far better cam than the A7,A7r,A7II so if you had those previously I would not compare it to the new SL at all, not even close to what the new cam is and its new features and such. Seriously for your own comparison completely ignore those older models they truly do not represent Sony at this point. I know some gave up with those models and frankly I completely understand the reasons, it bugged me too. Not now though as the new body is a completely different beast and it works it's fixed its better and it actually performs as expected. I just noticed a lot of folks are comparing older models and that's just not a comparison to making a good buying decision. Carry on

    Popcorn is still cooking.

    Now my only other bitch in life has always been Leicas slowness to bring lenses to market. Now with there move to there bigger facility I hope that has changed for the better. I do hope so
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by msadat View Post
    somebody mentioned about samsung is the new leica partner, it seems samsung is shutting the camera business.
    There are many rumours, including one about Panasonic, that they will launch a full frame mirrorless camera based on the SL. That would actually make sense. To suppliers to the same lens mount is always an advantage.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Hi Al - Leica doesn't seem to think in the ways we do. We think of the "new" replacing the old, like a M in this case (perhaps). Leica's thinking is much more of an "and" scenario. In Leica's mindset if somebody wants something lightweight / small, for those users Leica offers the M, T, X... I'm not saying their thinking is right, but that seems to be how they perceive things.

    Sony has set an expectation that mirrorless full-frame will be compact and powerful. Whereas I think Leica's perspective on the SL is headed in a different direction. I think Leica is laying the groundwork for something that's more like an Zeiss Otus system. The SL body is the framework for higher rez sensors as they come available to Leica. And lenses like the forthcoming 50 Lux SL will be Leica's Otus.

    I will not be using the SL system as Leica intended; their AF lenses are too big. Having owned the S system and carried a bag with several S lenses - it's too big / heavy for me. In my case the SL is a common mount to be used with several systems. I have a pretty big ensemble of Leica M, Leica R and Contax RTS lenses, so the SL body makes sense for me. Today I am using the M-P and A7II as a pair. That is not a compact duo -

    851g = M-P + Battery + Thumbs Up + 1.25x + 1/2 Case + Neck Strap (a rope-style strap)
    1060g = A7II + Sony v-grip + RRS L-bracket + Batteries + Novoflex adapter (R, M or Contax - all about the same weight)
    VS
    847g = SL with battery

    For me, going with the SL simplifies the kit to one camera and eliminates almost a kg from the bag. Also no need to manage two battery systems, nor having to contend with Sony's short battery life. Using one common platform also simplifies some of my back office work, such as having to go into EXIF Changer and backfilling EXIF data in raws. Built-in GPS is another such time saver. Since the SL will recognize most of my lenses, I don't have to go into the Sony Steady Shot menu and change the focal length menu each time I change the lens (forgetting to do this can impact image quality).

    I'm still curious what the next M will be. If the 4.4 MP EVF trickles down to the M, that's a big upside for the M. If Leica implement the LV / EVF on the M such that current +.5 second shutter lag is gone, that would radically change my opinion of the M with the EVF. And the last requirement is that the magnified view on the M be movable. With this hypothetical future M, for my needs the SL and future-M would be about on the same footing.

    For now the plan will be to sell the A7 and M-P, that funds the SL body and it's more or less a cash-neutral swap. Use it for a year and when the next M comes around, re-evaluate.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Uhhhh it sounds like you are never going to be satisfied with anything frankly. I loved my A7 and I love my A7II even more. End of story. I didn't need to try every damn model because I know what my needs are before buying. If you really think the 55 & 35 aren't good enough you're just pixel peeping and you will never be satisfied with your images from any lens made by anyone. Pick a horse and run with it.
    And you are posting on a Leica forum, why?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I feel quite disappointed by the SL and feel it falls into a 'no mans land', lacking the compactness of the sony A7 series and the utility of a top flight DSLR. I've written a fairly in depth explanation on my blog as to why I think this new series won't prove terribly successful other than as a cross platform solution for existing Leica fans. Its far from the interchangeable Q many were hoping for and instead has waded into DSLR territory at a time when such designs are at their zenith. Foolish move by Leica if you ask me. A real opportunity lost.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    I feel quite disappointed by the SL and feel it falls into a 'no mans land', lacking the compactness of the sony A7 series and the utility of a top flight DSLR. I've written a fairly in depth explanation on my blog as to why I think this new series won't prove terribly successful other than as a cross platform solution for existing Leica fans. Its far from the interchangeable Q many were hoping for and instead has waded into DSLR territory at a time when such designs are at their zenith. Foolish move by Leica if you ask me. A real opportunity lost.
    Completely agree. I am beyond disappointed. And this new system is full of compromises imho...

    Dr. Kaufmann: We present to you, the all new "no compromise" Leica SL!!

    Reporter: Very nice, and what lenses come with it?

    Dr. Kaufmann: At launch only the 24-90mm f2.8-f4.0

    Reporter: A variable aperture zoom?

    Dr. Kaufmann: Oh, yes we find it a good compromise between size and IQ

    Reporter: But you said "no compromise" just a second ago...

    Dr. Kaufmann: ......
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Popcorn is still cooking.

    Now my only other bitch in life has always been Leicas slowness to bring lenses to market. Now with there move to there bigger facility I hope that has changed for the better. I do hope so
    Lens availability *is* a problem. Where're those Batises? (I'm told that the plural of a Latin -is word ends in -es, so it should be Bates, but that sounds like a Hitchcock character..) Not kidding, they sound like a bigger draw into the system than the bodies.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Yes they are hard to get. Problem was demand and small production space. They expanded it to accomadate immediately so there saying they should catch up by December . But yes they got caught with there pants down. Leica facility is already in place but are they faster to the street in product was my question. There out if excuses they have the production space.

    Sony itself has not had a serious production issue yet. At least from what have seen . Maybe a two week delay after new first run of new body but nothing serious.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrew View Post
    And you are posting on a Leica forum, why?
    Who said I don't use and enjoy some Leica cameras? I just don't look at everything they do as exempt from criticism. And I look at people who complain about lenses that have been universally praised at being full of it really. Like if the 55/1.8 isn't good enough for you, it's not the lens, it you.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Some size comparisons on here https://www.facebook.com/groups/1493941300902396/ it's interesting I guess, I'm not sure I'm with all the "it's huge" "the lens is the size of a house" nonsense, it is what it is and for what they are aiming the camera at, it seems suitable to me but probably not for everyone.

    Speedgraphic, the zeiss 55 may be adequate for you but please don't insist that if it's not for someone else then it's an issue with them. I have no idea why you are still "contributing" here, it's not for you, surely you're boring yourself by now?

    Guy, we can't compare Leica with Sony because they are not comparing themselves, Sony is a huge organisation that is churning out camera after camera, Leica is a small producer of high quality kit, appreciated by those who get it and dismissed by those who don't, they are not the same.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Yes we can compare them. Compare them with images for example. They both are competing for camera $ spent be it by high spenders or low spenders of ILC's. I know many high spenders who have switched to Sony from Leica and they are individuals who get it.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Urgh, Algrove, Leica have not made a Sony competitor, it isn't a comparison, they can't compete on a mass produced camera with rapid updates, so they haven't, is that not obvious?

    If a Sony fits then brilliant, if a Leica fits then brilliant, what's the point of stating otherwise?

    Mat

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I would be interested to see an actual comparison from you showing how the A7RII is crippled in 4K, since Cinema5d has a different view (based on real use & lab tests):

    "What we could see when comparing the two modes is that indeed the Super35 Crop Mode is very nice and a tad sharper and cleaner than the Full Frame Mode. But we were also surprised to see that the Full Frame Mode is actually not bad at all.

    In fact I would say it can easily be scaled down to 3K or even go as 4K and look very nice. Itís really not so easy to tell the difference between the two modes so Full Frame must be good. Aliasing is not strong in full frame mode, there is a tiny bit here and there, but to be honest itís hard to find.

    So if you need the best quality you will want to go with crop mode, but if youíre not a pixel peeper than Full Frame Mode will serve you just as well.

    In comparison to the Sony A7S in 4K itís really really hard to tell the difference and I dare you to try. The most apparent difference is the A7S running at a base ISO of 3200 and the Sony A7RII running at a base ISO of 800. You can see the grain and compression / noise reduction artefacts on the A7S on moving images. The Sony A7RII looks a bit cleaner. As a still they look virtually identical."


    https://www.cinema5d.com/sony-a7rii-a7s-lab/
    I have no real argument with this assessment.

    They describe the FF mode as 'not bad at all'.

    The A7r2 FF mode is clearly less sharp and suffers from moire compared to the S35 mode.

    Is that a problem?

    Just depends on what you are looking for and what you are trying to deliver. If you are downsizing everything to 2K anyway then no problem. If you see the comparison videos on the internet and find them unconvincing then no problem

    It is a subjective and artistic choice really.

    But, every other internally recording 4K camera is sharper than the A7r2 is in FF mode.

    I have seen the FF mode described as 2.5K. I would not go that far but it is obvious that more detail exists in the S35 mode as well as from both the GH4 and the NX1.

    -Bill

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Some size comparisons on here https://www.facebook.com/groups/1493941300902396/ it's interesting I guess, I'm not sure I'm with all the "it's huge" "the lens is the size of a house" nonsense, it is what it is and for what they are aiming the camera at, it seems suitable to me but probably not for everyone.

    Speedgraphic, the zeiss 55 may be adequate for you but please don't insist that if it's not for someone else then it's an issue with them. I have no idea why you are still "contributing" here, it's not for you, surely you're boring yourself by now?

    Guy, we can't compare Leica with Sony because they are not comparing themselves, Sony is a huge organisation that is churning out camera after camera, Leica is a small producer of high quality kit, appreciated by those who get it and dismissed by those who don't, they are not the same.

    Mat
    Mat, picking up the combination in the flesh, the first word that comes to mind is.... 'huge'... That lens is a monster. It will be just fine with smaller glass but really, as a 'kit', "huge" is fair.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Tim

    I haven't held it of course so my experience is looking purely at comparisons, my idea of huge is clearly different to yours, I carry an S with a 180 for hours every day with another body and 3 more lenses in a backpack and it's nothing to me. I loved the 200f2 on the D800 and carried that everywhere too, the concept of huge is not the same for everyone. Many people will carry a 24-70 f2.8 around with them and won't feel it's huge for the range, this is a 24-90 so less than carry for example a 24-70 and an 85mm prime to cover the same range.

    Some people are just more prepared to carry stuff than others, the ones that don't won't buy it, I just don't see the issue.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Tim

    Here's something that makes me smile when I read about huge cameras and massive lenses, a 10 year old girl in Mali carrying a bucket which when I offered to help her and picked it up, weighed about the same as 10 SL's and kit lenses, I like perspective!

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Yes they are hard to get. Problem was demand and small production space. They expanded it to accomadate immediately so there saying they should catch up by December . But yes they got caught with there pants down. Leica facility is already in place but are they faster to the street in product was my question. There out if excuses they have the production space.

    Sony itself has not had a serious production issue yet. At least from what have seen . Maybe a two week delay after new first run of new body but nothing serious.
    Guy

    This is a bit of an elephant in the room. All the excitement of a new product has to be tempered by the fact that it will be months before they are in peoples hands. Yes, a few will be lucky in November and then you will have to be prepared to wait months before one you order is available. I received an email from a well respected store here in the UK which I have used many times and have nothing but good things to say about informing me about pre-orders. But it really means joining a waiting list which on past performance could mean a 3-6 months wait.

    I'm not saying that didn't happen with the A7RII but now I can go to many stores here in the UK and buy one from stock and this only 2-3 months after launch. The Leica Q which was launched at the same time is still a 3 month wait according to several stores I approached about 3 weeks ago and I doubt if there has been a sudden surge of product coming into dealers since.

    There is something distinctly odd about a company that consistently offers products that are not easily obtainable.

    LouisB

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Urgh, Algrove, Leica have not made a Sony competitor, it isn't a comparison, they can't compete on a mass produced camera with rapid updates, so they haven't, is that not obvious?

    If a Sony fits then brilliant, if a Leica fits then brilliant, what's the point of stating otherwise?

    Mat
    This is just mental acrobatics. The idea that you can't compare a Leica to any other camera is the only way you can cognitively disconnect critical thinking. The M240 can't be compared to pretty much anything because it's the only RF out there, same with the mono, same with the S in a way. But their is NOTHING unique about the SL. Every make has something that does a version of what it does. Many reviews have posed the question, where does this fit in? Leica says, well it's a PRO camera (whatever that means) we're competing against other PRO cameras. Well, according to the specs every other tool is a better choice for almost any job. You can't use the 11fps because the AF is crippled, you have to wait a year for a 50/1.4 or use a gigantic variable aperture zoom, or spend a crap ton of money for lenses that are non-native to the format.... What's the point? Why put yourself through that? I'm sure it's a perfectly competent camera but at the same time it's just not special. And a 12 grand camera and lens should be pretty eff'ing special.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    No problem, it doesn't match what you want from a camera, now what? We're done aren't we? On to something else and leave people who have an interest in it to discuss it?

    Mat

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I would like to see some of the excellent things of the SL in a Sony, like state of the art EVF, larger and faster buffers, higher frame rate, etc.
    With regards to size, my A7r2 is just right, not too small and not to large for small or large lenses, including the APO-R 280/4.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Agree with Louis and with Tom/turtle (above). I'd like this camera to be a success, but why go ahead and buy the body until AF lenses are available for it? Only when the primes and short zoom that I'd use appear on the scene could I take a practical interest. IMO it was a mistake to release this body without a more extensive/useful lens line.

    Kirk
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Tim

    I haven't held it of course so my experience is looking purely at comparisons, my idea of huge is clearly different to yours, I carry an S with a 180 for hours every day with another body and 3 more lenses in a backpack and it's nothing to me. I loved the 200f2 on the D800 and carried that everywhere too, the concept of huge is not the same for everyone. Many people will carry a 24-70 f2.8 around with them and won't feel it's huge for the range, this is a 24-90 so less than carry for example a 24-70 and an 85mm prime to cover the same range.

    Some people are just more prepared to carry stuff than others, the ones that don't won't buy it, I just don't see the issue.

    Mat
    I think you miss the point. Photographers for over 150 years carried extremely heavy gear over long distances because they had to do so in order to get the performance advantages that such equipment offered. I cannot imagine anyone CHOOSING to carry 30-40 pounds of camera equipment if they could get the same or better performance out of camera equipment that weighs 10 pounds.
    For me, this is not about the cost. It is frequently the case that the last 5-10% improvement in performance carries a very big price tag. I get that. I would pay (and have paid) for that. I own and carry medium format equipment with an 80 MP back because it offers capabilities that I cannot otherwise get. However, a Leica SL with a 24 MP sensor and that weighs what it weighs? I am at a loss to see what advantages it offers compared to a Sony A7RII (other than the EVF).
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Tim

    Here's something that makes me smile when I read about huge cameras and massive lenses, a 10 year old girl in Mali carrying a bucket which when I offered to help her and picked it up, weighed about the same as 10 SL's and kit lenses, I like perspective!

    I bet you didn't ask her if she LIKES to carry the water.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Not that this is getting ugly it's not but just remember to keep it friendly . Thanks
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    My A7II's EVF still projects a reasonable image to compose with even when I'm using a 3.0 ND at F11. I'd say stop down is unnecessary with this new EVF tech Leica has.
    HI There
    Whilst I'd like to see a stop down adapter (especially to convince potential SLR converts) - I completely agree with you - I'd rather focus at the chosen aperture and see the depth of field, and I found this eminently do-able with the SL and R lenses.

    All the best

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I respectfully disagree with you, the fact that you feel there is no advantage doesn't mean there isn't one for many people, just not for you. it's why I say it is what it is, you either want it or you don't.

    I could use it for video with my S lenses and then it's smaller and cheaper than my second S body and can use my existing lenses so it's lighter than buying another kit. My point is and always will be that there are options for everyone, I'm not buying the SL because I have 2 S bodies and love everything about them. If smaller and cheaper kit did exactly the same then I'd own it, but for me the whole kit, as a complete package does more than any other camera I have used, so for me it's perfect. The SL could be a handy addition for me because I couldn't care less about getting something small, light, or to some extent cost.

    I don't mean disrespect to anyone but so many people come along and say this piece of equipment or that piece of equipment has no value because of x or y and I honestly find it nonsense. Buy what you want.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by tashley View Post
    Mat, picking up the combination in the flesh, the first word that comes to mind is.... 'huge'... That lens is a monster. It will be just fine with smaller glass but really, as a 'kit', "huge" is fair.
    Hi Tim
    I hope you're well.
    I shot it (with the 24-90) 1 handed (the other hand was for waving at the ladies on the tractors) for 4 hours (two in the pouring rain). It might be huge, but it's perfectly manageable.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I bet you didn't ask her if she LIKES to carry the water.
    Haha, that would be insensitive as it's obvious she has no choice, she just gets on with it.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I think you miss the point. Photographers for over 150 years carried extremely heavy gear over long distances because they had to do so in order to get the performance advantages that such equipment offered. I cannot imagine anyone CHOOSING to carry 30-40 pounds of camera equipment if they could get the same or better performance out of camera equipment that weighs 10 pounds.
    For me, this is not about the cost. It is frequently the case that the last 5-10% improvement in performance carries a very big price tag. I get that. I would pay (and have paid) for that. I own and carry medium format equipment with an 80 MP back because it offers capabilities that I cannot otherwise get. However, a Leica SL with a 24 MP sensor and that weighs what it weighs? I am at a loss to see what advantages it offers compared to a Sony A7RII (other than the EVF).
    Well, I think the real solidity of the body, together with the extremely soft shutter, offers the opportunity to shoot hand held at lower shutter speeds (mind you, the Sony has IBIS, so you might feel that was more of an advantage). I found shooting the Sony A7ii with R lenses to be rather frustrating - they didn't balance properly, and it was hard to handle. The SL on the other hand is rather a joy.

    half full - half empty I guess.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I think you miss the point. Photographers for over 150 years carried extremely heavy gear over long distances because they had to do so in order to get the performance advantages that such equipment offered. I cannot imagine anyone CHOOSING to carry 30-40 pounds of camera equipment if they could get the same or better performance out of camera equipment that weighs 10 pounds.
    For me, this is not about the cost. It is frequently the case that the last 5-10% improvement in performance carries a very big price tag. I get that. I would pay (and have paid) for that. I own and carry medium format equipment with an 80 MP back because it offers capabilities that I cannot otherwise get. However, a Leica SL with a 24 MP sensor and that weighs what it weighs? I am at a loss to see what advantages it offers compared to a Sony A7RII (other than the EVF).
    I have carried MF equipment many times on international travels and this was 1 or 2 bodies with at least 4 lenses, also tele lenses. I know what that means and I definitely can say that weight and size is an issue! Especially if you have to fly! For home and studio usage I do not mind any size of camera!

    I agree with you that the size advantage of a FF mirrorless like the Sony A7rII disappears pretty soon as you start adding faster and longer glass, especially zooms, so I find the size of the SL actually a big advantage, as it allows for better grip and better batteries etc. from the scratch. Maybe the bad thing was to release the SL with just the 24-90, which does not only look huge on the pictures, it seems to be so in nature and from what I have read from different reviews. Maybe they should have also offered the 50 prime from the very beginning or maybe even better the a 35, 50 and 75 as the first available lenses!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Tim
    I hope you're well.
    I shot it (with the 24-90) 1 handed (the other hand was for waving at the ladies on the tractors) for 4 hours (two in the pouring rain). It might be huge, but it's perfectly manageable.
    And from what I can say you seem not to have the largest hands Jono! So this is encouraging!

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Well 40 years of hauling this crap has done some real damage. I like light weight but than on the other hand I'm being paid so I shut my bloody mouth about it. Lol

    I'm that lady carrying the water. It has to get there. The body looks a little heavy but the zoom ouch that might need 2 Tylenol at the end of the day. Lol

    Point being I think almost all of us had our share of carrying heavy gear but truth be told I never looked at mirrorless as a light weight option either. Who said it was supposed to be. I see these weight arguments a lot especially with Sony people whining on about there bulk and weight . Obviously they never been where a lot of us come from. You have to do what you have to do but I can't tell you how many times I muttered under my breath I picked the wrong profession, I should have been a writer. Than again you all know I would fail miserable at that one. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Hi Jono,

    I think the SL gets many things right and I wish all the vendors, including Leica, great success.
    With regards to comparisons, I am more interested how Leica M lenses perform on the SL and A7r2, especially ones that turned out problematic for the Sonys.
    Of course a Kolari modification of the A7r2 brings a noticeable improvement.
    BTW, what is the sensor cover glass thickness of the SL? TIA.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    just looked at one SL at photoexpo. great form factor; the 90-280 zoom is a monster, but surprisingly not too bad

    the SL finder pales when compared the 007 though, so don't make that side by side look-see

    best feel of all was an m4/35mm cron; what a beaut!
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Well, I think the real solidity of the body, together with the extremely soft shutter, offers the opportunity to shoot hand held at lower shutter speeds (mind you, the Sony has IBIS, so you might feel that was more of an advantage). I found shooting the Sony A7ii with R lenses to be rather frustrating - they didn't balance properly, and it was hard to handle. The SL on the other hand is rather a joy.

    half full - half empty I guess.
    For those of us that only have read about the SL , any comments on the difference in usability/handling of e.g. R-lenses on SL vs M240 beyond the excellent (SL) vs not-so-excellent (M240) electronic view finders?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Urgh, Algrove, Leica have not made a Sony competitor, it isn't a comparison, they can't compete on a mass produced camera with rapid updates, so they haven't, is that not obvious?

    If a Sony fits then brilliant, if a Leica fits then brilliant, what's the point of stating otherwise?

    Mat
    I agree Leica has not made a Sony competitor-at least to the A7R2. The SL only has a better EVF than the A7R2, much more weight, way less MP, (because it must have lower MP than the S-007 be definition due to the S being the flagship Leica out there) heavy as **** lenses (I should say one lens so far), Sony looks (that was what many people thought when first seeing the SL), 2.5 x the price of an A7R2, S owner's appeal, better for S lens owners, not terrific for M lens owners (based on may reviews saying the best body for an M lens is an M body), same usability for R lens owners as the M240 platform (except for better EVF-and it better be better since there is no other way to focus lenses), due to size it competes with a shrinking DSLR market, no IBIS to help with all lenses to be used on it not just the SL lenses, etc etc.

    Even many reviewers say the 11 fps does not always hit focus, but does fire off 11fps, but if not all hit focus then what's the object of a fast firing camera if focus is no good on many fps? I prefer to have all my images in focus.

    Don't be naive to think that the SL does not compete with every camera out there in some way, shape or form. Could I buy one? Sure. Will I buy one between now and year end? No. Before the next lens comes out 6-8 months from now there will be many new cameras released which will compete with the SL for buyers' funds. Even many S owners who could buy this now are waiting on the sidelines to see what really happens with the direct S adapter and the much anticipated direct R adapter. plus more native lens availability. I just remember not long ago, I had to wait over 15 months from handling the M-R adapter at Photokina 2012 until it became available.

    Just like it took the Sony A7 series to be accepted, especially after the vibration issue with the a7R and how badly it handled many M lenses after Sony hinted that legacy glass would work well on that body, individuals might wait for acceptance (by retail customers as well as 3rd party lens manufacturers if any) of the SL too. That wait is what can cost Leica mostly due primarily to a lame SL lens line-up. Only within the last year has Zeiss stepped up big time to fill out the FE line more than ever and that came about only after brisk sales began and many, many months from introduction.
    Last edited by algrove; 22nd October 2015 at 12:38.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I would have wished that they would have introduced the adapters at launch and not "... in 2016". It offers a great alternative for the S owner like myself to use a high ISO capable body with the S lenses. At half the cost and almost half the weight of the S type007, it is a practical companion. I did ponder the Sony A7rII but then I would have had to buy a whole new series of lenses. So when the adapter comes out, I will look into the change, until then, I will sit on my wallet.

    The size of the zoom? It is a product of the laws of physics, FF = large lens then add on AF motor and a large aperture . . . you get the picture. As an example, look at the 35-70 f2.8 ASPH R lens that Leica produced it was no lightweight and did not have AF or OIS to add to the girth nor the range on either end. As a leader in optical design, if they opted to make a sub par full aperture zoom everyone would be up in arms that they dropped the ball. If they came out with a smaller f4 constant everyone would be up in arms that it is not fast enough. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    I respectfully disagree with you, the fact that you feel there is no advantage doesn't mean there isn't one for many people, just not for you. it's why I say it is what it is, you either want it or you don't.

    I could use it for video with my S lenses and then it's smaller and cheaper than my second S body and can use my existing lenses so it's lighter than buying another kit. My point is and always will be that there are options for everyone, I'm not buying the SL because I have 2 S bodies and love everything about them. If smaller and cheaper kit did exactly the same then I'd own it, but for me the whole kit, as a complete package does more than any other camera I have used, so for me it's perfect. The SL could be a handy addition for me because I couldn't care less about getting something small, light, or to some extent cost.

    I don't mean disrespect to anyone but so many people come along and say this piece of equipment or that piece of equipment has no value because of x or y and I honestly find it nonsense. Buy what you want.

    Mat
    Clearly the approach that most have with this camera is totally different than Leica's aim... Leica never addressed this product at the mass market that would go out to select a system to use and sell 50000 cameras per month... Surely there will be some people that can afford it and use it in that manner, but only a few out of its customers... And maybe later on, Leica will use this same platform to address it to the consumer market... but this is clearly a PRO product that has been designed as to provide a cross-talk among the rest of Leica and Sinar products.

    Clearly Leica has aimed for a platform that allows R users to use their lenses, M users to do the same, S users to have a back up camera and Sinar users to obtain a cheap MFDB with S lenses on their front standard and full interface communication between front and rear standard and even integrate pro video in their work as well as turning Sinar view cameras into great professional videocameras.

    It is a product that unites and enhances the abilities of already existing Leica users and especially the pro ones... Nothing more, nothing less. A proof of the above is that Leica is into no rush as to provide lenses for the consumer market as they know it would only be a small fraction of the possible sales. To the contradict, I believe that this camera will enhance sales of the Leica S and of the Sinar products rather than selling much in its own... and I also believe it will be a major success among Holywood professionals and the rest of major cinema studios around the world...

    People keep forgetting that Leica promotes this as a PRO platform... not a Sony or Nikon or Canon alternative... and even if all the makers have cameras addressed to a pro task... Leica's idea of a pro is all kinds of tasks, whether if its Magnum, or Studio, or fashion, or product, or architecture, or cinema...
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Heavy lenses and bodies have their place. Small lenses and bodies have their place. However, they need to be matched to make any sense at all. My issue with the SL is not that the body is 820g (so is a D810, roughly) or that the 24-90mm is 1150g (so is the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, roughly). It is that the SL seems to be a poorly designed 'handle' for the weight of lenses designed for it and of which we are aware at this stage.

    Had Leica been thinking straight, they would have matched the design of the body to the lenses. That said, very large, exceptional zooms make sense when you need to milk a 36MP sensor, but less so for 24MP. Were this camera a 50MP monster, the size of the lenses would make more sense, but at 24MP, Leica has ended up with large lenses and a body that seems ill suited to carry them.

    Someone said earlier that the SL 24-90mm is no heavier than carrying a professional f2.8 24-70 plus an 85mm. True... but the 24-70 is up to one stop faster at the long end (not sure of the aperture of the SL lens at 70mm) and and the 85mm will be between 2 & 3 stops faster and therefore much more useful for portraiture.

    The SL may mate very well with lenses in the 500g range, but Leica has not announced any. With the 50mm f1.4 scheduled to take a year, this means the SL represents a serious proposition only 12-24 months downrange, when we can be sure the marketplace will have moved on a looong way. Even then, if any future 24/28/35/85 Summilux lenses are anything like the size of the 50mm, the handling is still going to be highly questionable.

    If I had a large number of R and M lenses, perhaps a M9 (and nothing later) I might think seriously about the SL to get those optics up and running with a modern, all round useful general purpose 24MP camera. For other people, especially professionals, the SL system doesn't seem to be a remotely sensible or practical proposition. Had it been 50MP, we might have seen studio or landscape photographers leap all over it. Had it been more compact with much lighter and smaller lenses, we might have seen M users and Fuji X users looking for that Leica juice jump in with both feet. As it is, I cannot see how anyone buying in without lots of Leica glass wouldn't be better off with a Nikon D750, or A7R II.... or a Leica M 240 for that matter.

    I notice some have commented that the 'AF is crippled' for 11fps. Is it confirmed that it has poor tracking, due to contrast detect only AF?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by atanabe View Post
    I would have wished that they would have introduced the adapters at launch and not "... in 2016". It offers a great alternative for the S owner like myself to use a high ISO capable body with the S lenses. At half the cost and almost half the weight of the S type007, it is a practical companion. I did ponder the Sony A7rII but then I would have had to buy a whole new series of lenses. So when the adapter comes out, I will look into the change, until then, I will sit on my wallet.

    The size of the zoom? It is a product of the laws of physics, FF = large lens then add on AF motor and a large aperture . . . you get the picture. As an example, look at the 35-70 f2.8 ASPH R lens that Leica produced it was no lightweight and did not have AF or OIS to add to the girth nor the range on either end. As a leader in optical design, if they opted to make a sub par full aperture zoom everyone would be up in arms that they dropped the ball. If they came out with a smaller f4 constant everyone would be up in arms that it is not fast enough. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
    I agree, the size and weight even of the APO-R 280/4 or Vario-R 105-280/4.2 has never stopped me from using it on an A7r/2.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    I respectfully disagree with you, the fact that you feel there is no advantage doesn't mean there isn't one for many people, just not for you. it's why I say it is what it is, you either want it or you don't.

    I could use it for video with my S lenses and then it's smaller and cheaper than my second S body and can use my existing lenses so it's lighter than buying another kit. My point is and always will be that there are options for everyone, I'm not buying the SL because I have 2 S bodies and love everything about them. If smaller and cheaper kit did exactly the same then I'd own it, but for me the whole kit, as a complete package does more than any other camera I have used, so for me it's perfect. The SL could be a handy addition for me because I couldn't care less about getting something small, light, or to some extent cost.

    I don't mean disrespect to anyone but so many people come along and say this piece of equipment or that piece of equipment has no value because of x or y and I honestly find it nonsense. Buy what you want.

    Mat
    I understand. You are thinking about this from a very different perspective as someone who already has a collection of exceptional legacy lenses to use on an SL. I am thinking about this from the perspective of me.....someone who doesn't own legacy lenses and is considering buying a camera and lenses for (1) landscape use that provide performance that approaches medium format quality and (2) handheld travel use that approaches DSLR quality, all without the attendant weight penalty of medium format and DSLR equipment. That's all I want. [G] The Sony A7RII gets me the closest so far. I would pay a lot more to get even more. The mainstream camera manufacturers will likely never build something like that. Leica would be the best bet, but the SL doesn't do it for me.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    I agree, the size and weight even of the APO-R 280/4 or Vario-R 105-280/4.2 has never stopped me from using it on an A7r/2.
    Or either on an M240 platform camera.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I understand. You are thinking about this from a very different perspective as someone who already has a collection of exceptional legacy lenses to use on an SL. I am thinking about this from the perspective of me.....someone who doesn't own legacy lenses and is considering buying a camera and lenses for (1) landscape use that provide performance that approaches medium format quality and (2) handheld travel use that approaches DSLR quality, all without the attendant weight penalty of medium format and DSLR equipment. That's all I want. [G] The Sony A7RII gets me the closest so far. I would pay a lot more to get even more. The mainstream camera manufacturers will likely never build something like that. Leica would be the best bet, but the SL doesn't do it for me.
    Good points. You know I had the M240 and tried the A7R, but the vibration issue turned me off and I returned it. I then sold my P45+ and V system due to too many error messages involved with mating a newish digital back to an older V system designed for film.

    Then a friend said he had been with Michael Reichman in Hawaii and suggested I look at the relatively new (then) 645Z which greatly interested me. MF, polished use of the Sony MF 51MP sensor, new lenses for digital, old lenses which are perform very well, etc. I got it and love it for landscape in the US, not for foreign travel.

    If and when I want a change for my M240, for me, it should be smaller and lighter. That does not describe the SL. However, the next time Jono is quiet for many weeks I sure trust he is testing a interchangeable lens FF, AF Q. I love my Q and want more even if it uses T lenses.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by thompsonkirk View Post
    Agree with Louis and with Tom/turtle (above). I'd like this camera to be a success, but why go ahead and buy the body until AF lenses are available for it? Only when the primes and short zoom that I'd use appear on the scene could I take a practical interest. IMO it was a mistake to release this body without a more extensive/useful lens line.

    Kirk
    This is just a guess but like the Leica T when first released, a very limited selection of af lenses were announced and su9bsequently released. I think in thr case of the T and now the SL, Leica is taking a wait and see approach to see if both body and system is well received in order that production and investment of lenses is financially sound. If not, its easy then to reduce or stop production of body. Since both the T and SL bodies are able to take other system lenses, owners of these bodies are not left completely in the lurch.

    It doesn't appear further development of lenses for the T body will be forthcoming (unless I missed something)€ and I believe the same approach was taken with the S system but in that case sufficient number of bodies were sold to warrent further development and release of S lenses.

    The last thing anyone wants is to be left with a body developed in a closed system with little to no lenses available for use with that system.

    Dave (D&A)

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