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Thread: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Good points. You know I had the M240 and tried the A7R, but the vibration issue turned me off and I returned it. I then sold my P45+ and V system due to too many error messages involved with mating a newish digital back to an older V system designed for film.

    Then a friend said he had been with Michael Reichman in Hawaii and suggested I look at the relatively new (then) 645Z which greatly interested me. MF, polished use of the Sony MF 51MP sensor, new lenses for digital, old lenses which are perform very well, etc. I got it and love it for landscape in the US, not for foreign travel.

    If and when I want a change for my M240, for me, it should be smaller and lighter. That does not describe the SL. However, the next time Jono is quiet for many weeks I sure trust he is testing a interchangeable lens FF, AF Q. I love my Q and want more even if it uses T lenses.
    If Leica was after a Sony alternative, they would simply make a version of the Q with interchangeable lens, sell it cheaper than the Q (since there would be no lens in the equation) and then none would complain about size or bulk or price... But obviously they had different in mind... a real pro product! After all they can offer the interchangeable lens Q anytime they want in the future in much the same mount...
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    This is just a guess but like the Leica T when first released, a very limited selection of af lenses were announced and su9bsequently released. I think in thr case of the T and now the SL, Leica is taking a wait and see approach to see if both body and system is well received in order that production and investment of lenses is financially sound. If not, its easy then to reduce or stop production of body. Since both the T and SL bodies are able to take other system lenses, owners of these bodies are not left completely in the lurch.

    It doesn't appear further development of lenses for the T body will be forthcoming (unless I missed something) and I believe the same approach was taken with the S system but in that case sufficient number of bodies were sold to warrent further development and release of S lenses.

    The last thing anyone wants is to be left with a body developed in a closed system with little to no lenses available for use with that system.

    Dave (D&A)
    Yes, like the R system bodies.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    If Leica was after a Sony alternative, they would simply make a version of the Q with interchangeable lens, sell it cheaper than the Q (since there would be no lens in the equation) and then none would complain about size or bulk or price... But obviously they had different in mind... a real pro product! After all they can offer the interchangeable lens Q anytime they want in the future in much the same mount...
    I'm confused. So Leica has touted the S system as a Pro system for years with not high success especially in the last year where few S006 sales occurred while S users awaited the S007.

    So now they believe that Pros will now flock to this system? I can see it as a backup to an S especially where a photographer has many S lenses.

    Agree that the T lens line is tapped out for now, but that could be revived with the introduction of an ILC AF Q system.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I'm confused. So Leica has touted the S system as a Pro system for years with not high success especially in the last year where few S006 sales occurred while S users awaited the S007.

    So now they believe that Pros will now flock to this system? I can see it as a backup to an S especially where a photographer has many S lenses.

    Agree that the T lens line is tapped out for now, but that could be revived with the introduction of an ILC AF Q system.
    It's not only an S body back-up, it also is an alternative for low light to the CCD "S", an MFDB for Sinars (with the same S lenses and full communication interface) and an excellent motion video camera (that can be combined with a Sinar View camera for demanding video applications) additional to the system... all done with the same lenses and some more that are forgotten in the back closet... it's a pro cross-platform for in-family pro users that can now add professional tasks and apply on to those (impossible up to now) tasks their existing lenses... All using in-family equipment... genius marketing move... just think how much money a P-1 MF camera user needs to perform the same tasks an S-user and 3-5 lenses can do by just adding this and a Sinar camera to his system... If the P1 user uses his back on a view camera, he needs the camera and 3-4 different lenses than the ones he owns and still what he owns is incompatible with high quality motion video...

    EDIT: IMO, it's not the additional sales that this body will do... It's more that S-sales will (at least) double (getting sales from competition) because this body exists...
    Last edited by T.Dascalos; 22nd October 2015 at 14:07. Reason: EDIT
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    If Leica was after a Sony alternative, they would simply make a version of the Q with interchangeable lens, sell it cheaper than the Q (since there would be no lens in the equation) and then none would complain about size or bulk or price... But obviously they had different in mind... a real pro product! After all they can offer the interchangeable lens Q anytime they want in the future in much the same mount...
    That would have been wise. I would have bought one in a heartbeat.

    The SL, looks a bit odd. Guess one has to use it to appreciate what it offers but on paper it's a hard sell.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    That would have been wise. I would have bought one in a heartbeat.

    The SL, looks a bit odd. Guess one has to use it to appreciate what it offers but on paper it's a hard sell.
    Don't worry... the customers that Leica aims for have it already in their plans! The rest will have to wait for an interchangeable lens Q... It's Leica that gives the priority in which customers to serve first!
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Fascinating read so far. Here's another perspective.

    I'm a long time Leica M (film) user, as well as Hassy - 503CX and SWC/M. I recently made a decision to shift to digital (never one to do things fast) and chose an Alpa with a Leaf Aptus II 7 back.

    My wife is a completely non-technical photographer with a great eye. She's used all the cameras I have as well as a variety of P&S.

    Last weekend I was sent on a scouting expedition to generate options for a new camera for her. Selection criteria were good image quality, interchangeable lenses and above all NOTHING that distanced her from the actual photograph. If I wasn't clear on that it meant simple like a Leica M. The goal was also a smaller camera than the Alpa that we can both share.

    Off I went. I tried a whole variety of cameras including the A7IIR or whatever it's called, the OM-D M1 and M5 or whatever they are called and lots of others between in the APS-C world.

    I came away completely bluffed. Most of them were too small for my (admittedly very large) hands and NONE of them met the fundamental criteria - of not distancing the operator from the picture. Many were so complex and so arcane in terms of UI that both I and multiple sales people just gave up.

    I didn't have money burning a hole in my pocket but it was a genuine quest for which the discussions have been going on for some time. After my abortive expedition we had another discussion about the possibilities of the digital M, but the reality is ageing eyes and spectacles don't make great friends with an M.

    If Leica does deliver a simpler, more direct camera with the SL, if it can effectively use my legacy M glass - including things like the 21 Elmarit Asph - then this might be a winner. I don't like the price, but I'm sure as hell not going to drop cash on anything I laid my hands on last weekend before this was announced. For us photography is about the process and that means that to some extent it is about the tools.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Uhhhh it sounds like you are never going to be satisfied with anything frankly. I loved my A7 and I love my A7II even more. End of story. I didn't need to try every damn model because I know what my needs are before buying. If you really think the 55 & 35 aren't good enough you're just pixel peeping and you will never be satisfied with your images from any lens made by anyone. Pick a horse and run with it.
    I'll let you know when the SL arrives..
    And it's not pixel peeping when you're actually printing your images.
    But you might want to do a quick google search about the 35/2.8 color gradient banding Very bad in prints.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    It doesn't appear further development of lenses for the T body will be forthcoming (unless I missed something)
    Leica just announced two new T lenses:
    http://leicarumors.com/2015/10/22/le...2-8-asph.aspx/
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Not a plug or anything like that but a fact. The new A7rII is a completely different and far better cam than the A7,A7r,A7II so if you had those previously I would not compare it to the new SL at all, not even close to what the new cam is and its new features and such. Seriously for your own comparison completely ignore those older models they truly do not represent Sony at this point. I know some gave up with those models and frankly I completely understand the reasons, it bugged me too. Not now though as the new body is a completely different beast and it works it's fixed its better and it actually performs as expected. I just noticed a lot of folks are comparing older models and that's just not a comparison to making a good buying decision. Carry on

    Popcorn is still cooking.

    Now my only other bitch in life has always been Leicas slowness to bring lenses to market. Now with there move to there bigger facility I hope that has changed for the better. I do hope so

    Hi Guy,

    I did use the A7rII but at that point I was so jaded by the fact that Sony doesn't give a damn about it's UI that it wasn't a pleasant experience for me. The EVF is much improved, as is the overall feel (both in terms of responsiveness and handling). That and I am not a fan of any of the Sony-Zeiss lenses. The Batis lenses did intrigue me, but I feel Zeiss seems to be catering to the Steve Huff crowd these days. More so then to the CY-ZE/ZF crowd. I'm not the only one who feels that way. Again not to say I haven't seen AMAZING things with this combo. But I just don't feel the size and weight is a compelling enough reason for me to use a system that A) I don't like the colors [and yes that is subjective] and B) I don't like the UI and ergonomics [button placement and function].



    Leica is down right ridiculous about their SL lens timetable. From a marketing standpoint I get it.. I can explain it, but I feel it's a bit sly (I would say underhanded, but I believe Leica believes the zoom is good, thus they're doing us a favour). AND it might not be Leica's intention, they might just have slow manufacturing, but it's a smart move none the less.

    1) SL comes out, early adapters will buy it.
    2) variable aperture zoom is less compelling due to it not being seen as a class leading industry standard.
    3) early adapters won't care because they have no other choice for an AF lens.
    4) Leica probably built a KILLER zoom. So they're banking on early adapters showing the community how good it is.
    5) Leica knows that the 50SL will outsell the zoom probably 5 to 1 if it is released at the same time as the SL+zoom.
    6) Not many people will rave about the zoom, most internet chatter will be about the 50SL vs Otus etc etc..
    7) Leica wants people to buy the zoom, because they believe it's worth buying.

    You kinda get where I'm going with this right?

    I mean that or they're not up to the task of manufacturing lenses quickly enough to meet the expected demand of the SL, and feel a zoom is more diverse. But by that logic, reading the forums.. All they really have to do is give me and maybe 2-3 other photographers the camera and they've supplied their market. So not that hard to build/manufacter 5 or 6 sets of SL

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zony user View Post
    Completely agree. I am beyond disappointed. And this new system is full of compromises imho...

    Dr. Kaufmann: We present to you, the all new "no compromise" Leica SL!!

    Reporter: Very nice, and what lenses come with it?

    Dr. Kaufmann: At launch only the 24-90mm f2.8-f4.0

    Reporter: A variable aperture zoom?

    Dr. Kaufmann: Oh, yes we find it a good compromise between size and IQ

    Reporter: But you said "no compromise" just a second ago...

    Dr. Kaufmann: ......

    That is funny in the literal sense.. But realistically I get where they're coming from. I wouldn't really even call it a "compromise" between size and weight. I'd use the term synergy. Since you have to understand that when CaNikon were making their 2.8 zooms they had **** high ISO. F/2.8 - F/4 is the second scariest sounding jump after F/1.4 - F/2.0... But if you think about it. It's only 1-stop. And sometimes it makes all the difference. But ponder this.. Canon's 50L actually lets in less light then their 50/1.8 or 50/1.4 or any other manufactures 50/1.4 lens. They just "push" the ISO a bit without letting the user know to TRICK the user into believing they're getting better light transmission. So who knows what's going on with your lenses and their actual light efficiency.

    Now I don't know the T-value of the zoom. Assuming it's pretty low with all those elements, and the distance the light has to travel. BUT in synergistic fashion the sensor should compensate for it not being a 2.8 zoom (by allowing the user to go up in ISO without sacrificing to much quality). The lens is wieldable at this size/weight and it's probably going to out perform most primes. Time will tell.. And since it's the only AF lens available at the moment of launch. I'm sure a lot of people will be using it. And we'll know quick.

    Also for a moment ponder this about the A7s and any other camera that can do massively high ISO... It looks like ****. It really does. Shooting people with candle light just because you can doesn't make it good. It's like those guys who get a girl naked stick her in the corner of a room next to a dim lit lamp with all these unflattering shadows then call it ARTISTIC. I shoot a LOT of ballroom weddings/events. I can comfortably use my D750 on 6400 ISO. I don't, because at that point all the hard lights are dominating the face. So what I do is try to strike a balance between the ambient light, and my flash bounced off an appropriate surface which will allow me to evenly and softly illuminate the face. 90% of the time, I'm on 1600 ISO. So you take my 1.4 prime which I end up using on f/2 because ALL DSLR/Mirrorless systems suck at focusing in low light and I need the DOF security and you now make it a 2.8 (the zoom does that on the wide end) I only really have to bump the iso up to 3200 at most. And the SL does good 3200 and has two new flashes which should work as the specs suggest.
    Now on the tele end it's an F/4 but generally speaking the lights in the background are now blurred out because I'm shooting someone across the room. So there's more lightness to the background. I can tilt my flash forward facing and I get more power and control over the light. I can shoot and rely on the flash power a bit more in this situation.. More then a stop, but I only need the stop because its f/4. And if the background isn't great, I can bring up the shadows in post (batched) with one click. The contrast on the lens seems good, so it won't look bad like when I shoot other zooms and even some primes. 5D3 Canon is horrid when you bring up the shadows.. Yet it's the wedding camera of choice.

    That and technically on the wide end, I tend to shoot groups of 3 or more. And having the added DOF f/4 is a bonus.

    And lastly, I have a noctilux. And from the photos I've seen, it balances quite well on the SL. And if the EVF on the Q is anything to go by.. The Noctilux will be quite a companion for the SL. Simple to focus.. Admittedly I have no problems focusing it on my M240 and had little to no problems with it on the A7 series cameras in good light. But the A7 series cameras tend to fall apart in bad light, not ideal for the precision needed for a Noctilux while subjects are moving about.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Who said I don't use and enjoy some Leica cameras? I just don't look at everything they do as exempt from criticism. And I look at people who complain about lenses that have been universally praised at being full of it really. Like if the 55/1.8 isn't good enough for you, it's not the lens, it you.
    COMPLETELY agree with you.. It's not the lens it's ME. I've been saying that all along.

    I don't like the lens. It's not a bad lens. I just don't like it. WTF is wrong with that? Want me to show you a lens that gets universal praise among the Cine community? I bet you would think it's crazy to spend $15k on it, because your 55FE is better.. But that's BETTER FOR YOU. And for your needs, wants, desires. It's not better for the Cine guy.

    Maybe I'm to fussy for my own good. Maybe things like color banding erk me more then they do you. Maybe what I shoot/process shows the bad aspects of the lens. Whilst the way you shoot/process doesn't. Do I have to change the way I shoot because a lens isn't designed for it?

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Guy

    This is a bit of an elephant in the room. All the excitement of a new product has to be tempered by the fact that it will be months before they are in peoples hands. Yes, a few will be lucky in November and then you will have to be prepared to wait months before one you order is available. I received an email from a well respected store here in the UK which I have used many times and have nothing but good things to say about informing me about pre-orders. But it really means joining a waiting list which on past performance could mean a 3-6 months wait.

    I'm not saying that didn't happen with the A7RII but now I can go to many stores here in the UK and buy one from stock and this only 2-3 months after launch. The Leica Q which was launched at the same time is still a 3 month wait according to several stores I approached about 3 weeks ago and I doubt if there has been a sudden surge of product coming into dealers since.

    There is something distinctly odd about a company that consistently offers products that are not easily obtainable.

    LouisB

    Try to buy an Hermes Birkin
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    But the A7 series cameras tend to fall apart in bad light, not ideal for the precision needed for a Noctilux while subjects are moving about.
    Good luck shooting a Nocti wide open with subjects moving about

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Try to buy an Hermes Birkin
    A very appropriate comparison ... Leica & Hermes ... same target audience (by and large).

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Adam, what is the this "color banding" that you talk about? please show a sample or two to illustrate it. I have not heard of any lens being a source of banding in a digital file. Never heard of "color banding".

    TIA.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I'm very very familiar with Leica DMR, M8 and M9 than I was out onto MF. After I left I honestly lost interest in Leica and mainly it was late product and such and the products just did not fit me anymore as well or they where late on the tech. Money obviously was a big issue. I can't do what I was able to do over 5 years ago my life and family dynamics which is health issues keeps me out of the luxury items. I have to think within budget and folks you know as well as I , Leica is not within a typical budget. I just can't be that much of a gear slut as I was. I don't feel though I am suffering in anyway real way either. It's a lot of money for that extra 1 or 2 percent. Anyway I see the allure but I do see where Leica blew it and that was the adapters they should be out immediately with release. They would give all the other system users a chance to swap immediately which would lead to more sales out of the gate.

    See some of these things are what bugged me about Leica, it's a snails pace attitude that made it hard for a working Pro to just buy everything at once. Same issue with Sony too but Sonys A7 was a whole new concept which I understood.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Here are the sizes compared:



    The link:

    http://camerasize.com/compact/#624.3...6,557.479,ha,t

    If size and weight are the main criteria, Sony wins comfortably. It's much smaller and at around 1 kilogram weighs half of what the Leica and Nikon alternatives do. However, since I've already chosen the Nikon over the Sony, I apparently don't care to much about that. Important also is that the Leica lens has more reach than the Zony and is a stop faster at the wide end.

    I remember an interview with a lens designer a few months ago, can't remember who, who said that by making a lens constant aperture, they always give away around one stop at the wide end. Zoom lenses are naturally faster at wide angles, but they limit that to make them constant.

    The debate about this lens reminds me a bit of the debate around the PanaLeica 14-50mm f/2.8-3.5 for 4/3, a lens that I have and love dearly. It's a monster compared to the tiny 4/3 format, although only half the weight of this lens. It is however the best zoom lens I've ever used, always sharp corner to corner, regardless of aperture and focal length. And it's a great range, usable for interiors and great for portraits too. In reality, the only lens I need 90% of the time.

    If I were to buy into this system, which would require financial luck of epic proportions, the three lenses currently in the program might be the only lenses that I need. One for general use, one for air shows and sports (if the viewfinder and AF can live up to that kind of use) and one for wide apertures. Most of the time, I would only carry two of them, and possibly an adapted telephoto prime. The Zeiss 21mm can obviously also be adapted.

    I understand the argument about weight. Many of us are past 60, and I'm getting closer myself. Still, I don't have a problem with heavy stuff, and use the good, old 80-200 AF-S hand held regularly. Maybe Leica didn't target old folks with this camera, but see it as what they think the new generation of professionals need. It has the "modern look" to complement modern designer gadgets, and although many complain about the grip, it can't be worse than the first generation A7, which basically didn't have one.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Adam, what is the this "color banding" that you talk about? please show a sample or two to illustrate it. I have not heard of any lens being a source of banding in a digital file. Never heard of "color banding".

    TIA.
    Nor have I and Sonys color is very good.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here are the sizes compared:



    The link:

    http://camerasize.com/compact/#624.3...6,557.479,ha,t

    If size and weight are the main criteria, Sony wins comfortably. It's much smaller and at around 1 kilogram weighs half of what the Leica and Nikon alternatives do. However, since I've already chosen the Nikon over the Sony, I apparently don't care to much about that. Important also is that the Leica lens has more reach than the Zony and is a stop faster at the wide end.

    I remember an interview with a lens designer a few months ago, can't remember who, who said that by making a lens constant aperture, they always give away around one stop at the wide end. Zoom lenses are naturally faster at wide angles, but they limit that to make them constant.

    The debate about this lens reminds me a bit of the debate around the PanaLeica 14-50mm f/2.8-3.5 for 4/3, a lens that I have and love dearly. It's a monster compared to the tiny 4/3 format, although only half the weight of this lens. It is however the best zoom lens I've ever used, always sharp corner to corner, regardless of aperture and focal length. And it's a great range, usable for interiors and great for portraits too. In reality, the only lens I need 90% of the time.

    If I were to buy into this system, which would require financial luck of epic proportions, the three lenses currently in the program might be the only lenses that I need. One for general use, one for air shows and sports (if the viewfinder and AF can live up to that kind of use) and one for wide apertures. Most of the time, I would only carry two of them, and possibly an adapted telephoto prime. The Zeiss 21mm can obviously also be adapted.

    I understand the argument about weight. Many of us are past 60, and I'm getting closer myself. Still, I don't have a problem with heavy stuff, and use the good, old 80-200 AF-S hand held regularly. Maybe Leica didn't target old folks with this camera, but see it as what they think the new generation of professionals need. It has the "modern look" to complement modern designer gadgets, and although many complain about the grip, it can't be worse than the first generation A7, which basically didn't have one.

    My only comment here is my bags have gotten a lot smaller. A lot smaller
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    If Leica was after a Sony alternative, they would simply make a version of the Q with interchangeable lens, sell it cheaper than the Q (since there would be no lens in the equation) and then none would complain about size or bulk or price... But obviously they had different in mind... a real pro product! After all they can offer the interchangeable lens Q anytime they want in the future in much the same mount...
    I believe the SL in no way precludes this course. In fact the less than successful crop/budget Leicas suggest we may well see exactly this before too long, not replacing the RF M but as a smaller and cheaper alternative.

    People are constantly begging for an interchangeable Q. If they keep it up one will come, from Leica or someone else.

    Half the disappointment is that the SL is not this camera, but of course, it was never intended to be. It's the new R, that also loves M glass.

    I'm really happy with my own M9/A7.mod combo right now, except both could be smaller and lighter for somebody who is often in the backcountry and likes to have the good stuff always handy.

    A digital Barnack. That's all.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    This is just mental acrobatics. The idea that you can't compare a Leica to any other camera is the only way you can cognitively disconnect critical thinking. The M240 can't be compared to pretty much anything because it's the only RF out there, same with the mono, same with the S in a way. But their is NOTHING unique about the SL. Every make has something that does a version of what it does. Many reviews have posed the question, where does this fit in? Leica says, well it's a PRO camera (whatever that means) we're competing against other PRO cameras. Well, according to the specs every other tool is a better choice for almost any job. You can't use the 11fps because the AF is crippled, you have to wait a year for a 50/1.4 or use a gigantic variable aperture zoom, or spend a crap ton of money for lenses that are non-native to the format.... What's the point? Why put yourself through that? I'm sure it's a perfectly competent camera but at the same time it's just not special. And a 12 grand camera and lens should be pretty eff'ing special.

    I'm basing this on user reports and specs. I WILL BE THE FIRST TO BASH THE SL IF IT DOESN'T PERFORM AS INTENDED. Trust me, I have no love for a company that takes my money then screws me with **** product.

    But to me the camera is pretty F*ing special.


    1) Colors typical of Leica without having to spend HOURS getting the colors the way I want. (Yes my brain is tuned to Leica colors, my fault)

    2) Best AF in the industry, even in low light. I always shoot single shot. I predict the moment, I don't let my camera machine gun around. I have NEVER once used anything but single shot in my life and I've owned every DSLR out there. IF this camera performs as good as the Q, I can confidently say that it bests even a 1DX in tricky light, as I've used the 1Dx and the Q in tandem. As I've used the D750 and it's worse then the Q by far.

    3) Best EVF in the industry. I don't really care about EVF or OVF or WYSIWYG (I shot manual and I pay attention to the room I'm in). Though I do love RF for the frame and focusing. I care about making it simple to get the shot. And this EVF is going to make it simple to get the shot IF I decide to shoot manual focus because A) the AF isn't working as it should [happens a lot with DSLRS even my 1Dx did this]. B) I'm using a lens that's MF and I do this on occasion because I love the look of some MF lenses. Say a bride getting ready. I'd probably grab the Noctilux or 50Lux.. Yes when the 50SL comes out, if it's as beautiful as the 50Lux-M I'll buy it and won't need manual focus. But until it does, this camera is my best option (aside from RF cameras) to get an image with a manual lens.

    4) Dual card slots - I've used my M for weddings, but being paranoid I have 20+ 16GB and 32GB 95mbps extreme pro cards in both and I switch them every 50-100 shots (or when time permits) just because IF something goes wrong with one of my cards (I use two cameras at all times).. I don't loose the wedding images for the couple. With the A7 I always have a database error that really f*cks with my SD card management system and day.

    5) Indisputably the best UI and ergonomics of anything digital ever. Again maybe subjective, but I shoot in very fast paced situations so I'm willing to fight anyone on this point. The camera just NEVER gets in the way.. If the UI is like the S-system then it's brilliant to say the least.

    6) You're basing the best points from the A7rII and the A7sII. They're TWO DIFFERENT CAMERAS. If you bought both of them. And you were willing to switch off, then fine. I'm not. I'd rather one camera. It's much less of a headache in post.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Adam, what is the this "color banding" that you talk about? please show a sample or two to illustrate it. I have not heard of any lens being a source of banding in a digital file. Never heard of "color banding".

    TIA.
    I googled it. I guess it's a thing if you're into weird lens tests. Meanwhile people are making amazing images with this lens and not doing pointless tests.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I think you miss the point. Photographers for over 150 years carried extremely heavy gear over long distances because they had to do so in order to get the performance advantages that such equipment offered. I cannot imagine anyone CHOOSING to carry 30-40 pounds of camera equipment if they could get the same or better performance out of camera equipment that weighs 10 pounds.
    For me, this is not about the cost. It is frequently the case that the last 5-10% improvement in performance carries a very big price tag. I get that. I would pay (and have paid) for that. I own and carry medium format equipment with an 80 MP back because it offers capabilities that I cannot otherwise get. However, a Leica SL with a 24 MP sensor and that weighs what it weighs? I am at a loss to see what advantages it offers compared to a Sony A7RII (other than the EVF).

    SL = 847g w/battery

    A7rII = 625g w/battery + 2 spare batteries (2x42g) (if the SL is anything like the Q w/power management it'll take 3 sony batteries to = 1 Q/SL) for a total of = 709g and the annoyance of having batteries in your pockets.

    That's not a lot of difference. AND yes the zoom is heavy/large/etc. but if the quality is good, and Sony had an SL adapter, how many people would buy it? Tons of people right now reach for R-zooms for their Sony. I even see adapters for medium format lenses.


    BTW, I need to workout more anyway. I'm getting skinny.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    SL = 847g w/battery

    A7rII = 625g w/battery + 2 spare batteries (2x42g) (if the SL is anything like the Q w/power management it'll take 3 sony batteries to = 1 Q/SL) for a total of = 709g and the annoyance of having batteries in your pockets.

    That's not a lot of difference. AND yes the zoom is heavy/large/etc. but if the quality is good, and Sony had an SL adapter, how many people would buy it? Tons of people right now reach for R-zooms for their Sony. I even see adapters for medium format lenses.


    BTW, I need to workout more anyway. I'm getting skinny.
    Size looks ok,from the reaction on the comments section of some sites I thought it was going to be huge..looks very manageable when compared to the 5DS!!

    Rob
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Good luck shooting a Nocti wide open with subjects moving about

    - - - Updated - - -



    A very appropriate comparison ... Leica & Hermes ... same target audience (by and large).

    I shoot with all my M lenses all the time on my RF and I nail focus consistently while the bride groom are walking, dancing laughing etc. I also do it while I'm walking, crouching, leaning, falling into ditches and drains because I'm not watching where I'm going, etc.

    Actually to be fair, I really mostly shoot with the 35FLE and 75APO. But I do and have used all three of my 50mm lenses (noct,lux,apo).

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Adam, what is the this "color banding" that you talk about? please show a sample or two to illustrate it. I have not heard of any lens being a source of banding in a digital file. Never heard of "color banding".

    TIA.
    I'm not in Singapore. I do not have access to my HDDs and thus no access to samples.
    You're welcome to look it up. Maybe this was corrected in a firmware, or with Adobe updates. But as far as I remember it was an issue up until I sold my A7 and 35FE.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I'm very very familiar with Leica DMR, M8 and M9 than I was out onto MF. After I left I honestly lost interest in Leica and mainly it was late product and such and the products just did not fit me anymore as well or they where late on the tech. Money obviously was a big issue. I can't do what I was able to do over 5 years ago my life and family dynamics which is health issues keeps me out of the luxury items. I have to think within budget and folks you know as well as I , Leica is not within a typical budget. I just can't be that much of a gear slut as I was. I don't feel though I am suffering in anyway real way either. It's a lot of money for that extra 1 or 2 percent. Anyway I see the allure but I do see where Leica blew it and that was the adapters they should be out immediately with release. They would give all the other system users a chance to swap immediately which would lead to more sales out of the gate.

    See some of these things are what bugged me about Leica, it's a snails pace attitude that made it hard for a working Pro to just buy everything at once. Same issue with Sony too but Sonys A7 was a whole new concept which I understood.
    Probably one of the most honest things someone could say about the SL, and Leica's attitude. I completely agree.

    Actually it was a bit disappointing buying the Q28 seeing how amazing it was, and how fun to use it was. Then not being able to buy a Q75 or Q90 or etc.. For me it was to limiting. And for those who are still waiting for a Q, I can see the frustration as well.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    That sort of surprises me with the apparent slow sales of the T body. Interesting to say the least.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    I googled it. I guess it's a thing if you're into weird lens tests. Meanwhile people are making amazing images with this lens and not doing pointless tests.
    Yes, but as an early adapter of the A7 and 35FE it was an issue that showed up in a lot of my photos. Work photos, not tests.

    Again, perhaps this was corrected with a Sony or Adobe firmware update. But I can't rewind time.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Come on.. You have to admit this looks like a very well balanced match:

    http://thephotofundamentalist.com/wp...t-15.26.35.png


    Not saying the Noctilux isn't gigantic. But the Batis 85 isn't a small lens.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    Yes, but as an early adapter of the A7 and 35FE it was an issue that showed up in a lot of my photos. Work photos, not tests.

    Again, perhaps this was corrected with a Sony or Adobe firmware update. But I can't rewind time.
    Adam like I said in one of my post yea just have to ignore what Sonys A7 past is. They really where beta units. A lot has changed and no one will debate you on the menu, it's a kludge fudge. But I got it figured out really well now and these cams just take time to learn. No plug for Sony here but I know many had a bad experience before the new model so it's hard
    not to forget.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    The A7r was a stepping stone for Sony to get to the A7r2 fairly quickly, the SL could function likewise for Leica, no?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    That sort of surprises me with the apparent slow sales of the T body. Interesting to say the least.

    Dave (D&A)
    My guess: A T body with a viewfinder will be next. I see several cameras appearing with the same lens mount.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    My guess: A T body with a viewfinder will be next. I see several cameras appearing with the same lens mount.
    It has already been said in this thread. Give the T the AF of the Q or SL and a built-in viewfinder and it will be a very successful product...

    Even as is I prefer it to similar products from Fuji and Sony...

    Obviously it can also use the SL lenses although I probably wouldn't recommend putting that huge zoom on the T body

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    And for those who are still waiting for a Q, I can see the frustration as well.
    Unfortunately +1. Leica really needs to fix their supply chain.

    I went through the Leica Q pre-order process ordering on the first day of pre-order and waited for 2.5 months for the camera.

    Leica does not provide any meaningful information to their dealers and therefore also the dealers cannot provide anything meaningful to you... Extremely, extremely frustrating...

    Even though I might end up buying the SL I will with 100% certainty not pre-order it, I will buy it when it is regularly available in the stores, I am not going through that process again...
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Here are the sizes compared:



    The link:

    Compact Camera Meter

    If size and weight are the main criteria, Sony wins comfortably. It's much smaller and at around 1 kilogram weighs half of what the Leica and Nikon alternatives do. However, since I've already chosen the Nikon over the Sony, I apparently don't care to much about that. Important also is that the Leica lens has more reach than the Zony and is a stop faster at the wide end.

    I remember an interview with a lens designer a few months ago, can't remember who, who said that by making a lens constant aperture, they always give away around one stop at the wide end. Zoom lenses are naturally faster at wide angles, but they limit that to make them constant.

    The debate about this lens reminds me a bit of the debate around the PanaLeica 14-50mm f/2.8-3.5 for 4/3, a lens that I have and love dearly. It's a monster compared to the tiny 4/3 format, although only half the weight of this lens. It is however the best zoom lens I've ever used, always sharp corner to corner, regardless of aperture and focal length. And it's a great range, usable for interiors and great for portraits too. In reality, the only lens I need 90% of the time.

    If I were to buy into this system, which would require financial luck of epic proportions, the three lenses currently in the program might be the only lenses that I need. One for general use, one for air shows and sports (if the viewfinder and AF can live up to that kind of use) and one for wide apertures. Most of the time, I would only carry two of them, and possibly an adapted telephoto prime. The Zeiss 21mm can obviously also be adapted.

    I understand the argument about weight. Many of us are past 60, and I'm getting closer myself. Still, I don't have a problem with heavy stuff, and use the good, old 80-200 AF-S hand held regularly. Maybe Leica didn't target old folks with this camera, but see it as what they think the new generation of professionals need. It has the "modern look" to complement modern designer gadgets, and although many complain about the grip, it can't be worse than the first generation A7, which basically didn't have one.
    Jorgen,

    GREAT POST!!! The reason I quoted also the comparison image again! One cannot often enough see this comparison.

    If you look at the SL in the middle, it is even small compared to the Nikon with the 2.8/24-74, which I shot for many years - maybe on a different Nikon body, but then it was a D3 and this is even larger than the Nikon camera in this comparison!

    So actually this new SL is pretty comfortable in size, even with such a zoom like the 24-90! And I am very confident this lens is top overall! Also I still own a huge number of M lenses, including the beautiful and excellent 1.0/50, which would be great on the SL. I never could get friends with a digital M, because of the focussing issues with such fast lenses if used wide open in combination with AF. So using my WATE, the 1/50, 1.4/75 and 2/90 on the SL would immediately make a pretty complete system of the best glass available, although MF. But heck, I would not care, if the EVF is really as good as described! And for lazy times I still could use the 28-90 AF and for wildlife the 90-280.

    This becomes more and more a system I always have dreamed of

    Thanks again for bringing all these information!

    Peter

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Just bear in mind the photo shows the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, which is about an inch longer than the venerable regular 24-70 f2.8 G. Were that lens used, the D750 combo would be about the same length as the Leica, but about 250g lighter in the lens. This is my concern: the Leica is an 1150g lens hanging off a skinny body with sharp edges and no grip contouring.... a body with the same sort of front to back depth as an A7. To put this in context, my Sony 70-200 f4 G weighs over 250g less than the Leica 24-90 and is used on a commensurately lighter A7. I would consider the leverage excessive on this small body. While the SL is heavier than a Sony A7, it's no thicker really and that leverage will be there. Unfortunately, the grip does not look adequate to make that comfortable, though I will stand corrected if users reach different conclusions.

    For those manual focusing M lens fans, I recall Ming Thein mentioning that there is no 'auto zoom' option in the EVF when manual focusing. If so, that would mean buttons and/or menus to come in and out of magnified view....

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Jorgen,

    If you look at the SL in the middle, it is even small compared to the Nikon with the 2.8/24-74, which I shot for many years - maybe on a different Nikon body, but then it was a D3 and this is even larger than the Nikon camera in this comparison!

    So actually this new SL is pretty comfortable in size, even with such a zoom like the 24-90!....

    Peter

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Just an aside: I am not sure where you heard the bit quoted below, but I do not think it is correct. DxO measures the T stop of the Canon 50mm f1.2 L as T1.4. The 50mm f1.4 USM is T1.6, as is the Nikon 50mm f1.4G.

    The Canon 50mm f1.2L does indeed let in more light than any of the other 50mm lenses and the sort of additional amount you would expect given the half stop faster F stop. There is no cheating going on that I can see.

    The Leica lenses can be tested and their T stops ascertained. Assuming a T stop measurement is available, user can know exactly what they are getting.

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    .... But ponder this.. Canon's 50L actually lets in less light then their 50/1.8 or 50/1.4 or any other manufactures 50/1.4 lens. They just "push" the ISO a bit without letting the user know to TRICK the user into believing they're getting better light transmission. So who knows what's going on with your lenses and their actual light efficiency.
    Last edited by turtle; 23rd October 2015 at 00:24.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    The A7r was a stepping stone for Sony to get to the A7r2 fairly quickly, the SL could function likewise for Leica, no?
    No. Because the SL is a good camera as far as I can tell. But I'll be the first to BITCH if it isn't. And I'll link all you guys into my rolling review when I have the camera in hand next month when I'm back in SG.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    It has already been said in this thread. Give the T the AF of the Q or SL and a built-in viewfinder and it will be a very successful product...

    Even as is I prefer it to similar products from Fuji and Sony...

    Obviously it can also use the SL lenses although I probably wouldn't recommend putting that huge zoom on the T body
    True about all... But ponder this. The second the little Canon M to EOS adapter came out.. The most ridiculous pictures started surfacing with people going on about pixel density and zoom lenses. It worked for them. So why not for you

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Just bear in mind the photo shows the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, which is about an inch longer than the venerable regular 24-70 f2.8 G. Were that lens used, the D750 combo would be about the same length as the Leica, but about 250g lighter in the lens. This is my concern: the Leica is an 1150g lens hanging off a skinny body with sharp edges and no grip contouring.... a body with the same sort of front to back depth as an A7. To put this in context, my Sony 70-200 f4 G weighs over 250g less than the Leica 24-90 and is used on a commensurately lighter A7. I would consider the leverage excessive on this small body. While the SL is heavier than a Sony A7, it's no thicker really and that leverage will be there. Unfortunately, the grip does not look adequate to make that comfortable, though I will stand corrected if users reach different conclusions.

    For those manual focusing M lens fans, I recall Ming Thein mentioning that there is no 'auto zoom' option in the EVF when manual focusing. If so, that would mean buttons and/or menus to come in and out of magnified view....

    I'd find that hard to believe (auto zoom). Seeing how the Q does it.

    Also, don't you hold your camera with two hands. I always stabilise my lens with one, and shoot with the other. And especially so when I'm hanging onto a zoom ring. I even do it when I was shooting with the A7 series cameras and the little 35FE. Habit from my M I guess?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Just an aside: I am not sure where you heard the bit quoted below, but I do not think it is correct at all. DxO measures the T stop of the Canon 50mm f1.2 L as T1.4. The 50mm f1.4 USM is T1.6, as is the Nikon 50mm f1.4G.

    The Canon 50mm f1.2L does indeed let in more light than any of the other 50mm lenses and the sort of additional amount you would expect given the half stop faster F stop. There is no cheating, no conspiracy and no smoke and mirrors.

    The Leica lenses can be tested and their T stops ascertained. Assuming a T stop measurement is available, user can know exactly what they are getting.
    Then DXO is wrong. Or Canon has updated their coatings since I had the lens.
    Also as far as I know, Leica doesn't post T-stops. And I do not currently have the means of measuring it accurately. But can do so very easily when I'm back in Singapore.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    You do hold with two hands when up 'in the aim' so to speak, but a lot of photogs hold cameras 'rested' with the right hand down by the hip. This becomes incrementally more difficult with big lenses, for sure, but its easy and comfortable with a 5D III and 24-70 L II, for example. I am not sure it will feel very nice with the SL and 24-90 tho. The 645Z has such an awesome grip I can comfortable do this is the 3kg 645z + 28-45mm combo. Holding cameras rested is no issue if you have just plucked it from your bag to shoot something. It becomes quite habitual and energy saving when you're on location for hours and hours, at least for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I'd find that hard to believe (auto zoom). Seeing how the Q does it.

    Also, don't you hold your camera with two hands. I always stabilise my lens with one, and shoot with the other. And especially so when I'm hanging onto a zoom ring. I even do it when I was shooting with the A7 series cameras and the little 35FE. Habit from my M I guess?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Then DXO is wrong. Or Canon has updated there coatings since I had the lens.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    I never use straps or slings on my cameras and love the S grip for holding by finger tips down by my side, even with the 180mm, I have an advantage though having lost the top section of my middle finger right hand in an accident, means I can get all my fingers further in to a grip. The SL grip looks like a big slab, I can see it being very comfortable for down by your side, maybe less comfortable up in the firing position but as with you guys, I never shoot one handed anyway and my left hand is holding the weight, my right hand is controlling things.

    Proof will be holding it for sure, I haven't made a decision yet, need a week with it to know if it's for me.

    Mat

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Heavy lenses and bodies have their place. Small lenses and bodies have their place. However, they need to be matched to make any sense at all. My issue with the SL is not that the body is 820g (so is a D810, roughly) or that the 24-90mm is 1150g (so is the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, roughly). It is that the SL seems to be a poorly designed 'handle' for the weight of lenses designed for it and of which we are aware at this stage.

    Had Leica been thinking straight, they would have matched the design of the body to the lenses. That said, very large, exceptional zooms make sense when you need to milk a 36MP sensor, but less so for 24MP. Were this camera a 50MP monster, the size of the lenses would make more sense, but at 24MP, Leica has ended up with large lenses and a body that seems ill suited to carry them.
    Hrumph
    Well, having done full day events with the camera carried mostly in one hand, and toted it around mountains in Crete for 3 weeks I'd say that the camera actually handles extremely well - I liked the grip, and I'd contend that whilst indented grips are great as long as they match your hands - they can be negative if they don't. The apparent sharp corners never caused me any grief.

    all the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Jono

    Difficult without full LR support for the SL yet but any views on ISO performance compared with the S? I find the 007 produces superb files at ISO800, what's your view on the SL at 1600 and on?

    Thanks

    Mat

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Adam like I said in one of my post yea just have to ignore what Sonys A7 past is. They really where beta units. A lot has changed and no one will debate you on the menu, it's a kludge fudge. But I got it figured out really well now and these cams just take time to learn. No plug for Sony here but I know many had a bad experience before the new model so it's hard
    not to forget.
    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    The A7r was a stepping stone for Sony to get to the A7r2 fairly quickly, the SL could function likewise for Leica, no?

    Some (read = me) will NEVER forget nor forgive. It has been an education (albeit expensive).

    I say NO to any new Sony purchases however astounding the claims may be.

    The facts are after a few months the same stuff is there nearly at ~50% suggested debut retail price.
    (that makes a Leica purchase even more difficult, mind you!)

    A stepping stone? I refuse to be one.
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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post
    Just bear in mind the photo shows the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, which is about an inch longer than the venerable regular 24-70 f2.8 G. Were that lens used, the D750 combo would be about the same length as the Leica, but about 250g lighter in the lens. This is my concern: the Leica is an 1150g lens hanging off a skinny body with sharp edges and no grip contouring.... a body with the same sort of front to back depth as an A7. To put this in context, my Sony 70-200 f4 G weighs over 250g less than the Leica 24-90 and is used on a commensurately lighter A7. I would consider the leverage excessive on this small body. While the SL is heavier than a Sony A7, it's no thicker really and that leverage will be there. Unfortunately, the grip does not look adequate to make that comfortable, though I will stand corrected if users reach different conclusions.

    For those manual focusing M lens fans, I recall Ming Thein mentioning that there is no 'auto zoom' option in the EVF when manual focusing. If so, that would mean buttons and/or menus to come in and out of magnified view....
    I hear you and I cannot tell from my own experience how the SL might handle with the 24-90. But what I can say, I rarely would hold the cam/lens combination only via the grip, but during shooting definitely with both hands. And then a larger lens is rather an advantage from my experience that a smaller and lighter one.

    Just for carrying this could be different, but I have to handle it myself (hopefully next week in Leica Store Vienna) and then I can tell better.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Anyway, who care about the zooms here ?? I just ask because most of Leica users I know use prime lenses. The zooms have been released for the mass, for the newcomer in the brand (or the guy who really NEED it). The actual Leica users KNOW that they will use primes on it so the bulkiness isn't a problem anymore.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Anyway, who care about the zooms here ?? I just ask because most of Leica users I know use prime lenses. The zooms have been released for the mass, for the newcomer in the brand (or the guy who really NEED it). The actual Leica users KNOW that they will use primes on it so the bulkiness isn't a problem anymore.
    I do agree to that one, as most times I would use the SL with primes.

    But there are the situations like wildlife, where at least I prefer a zoom lens. Think about sitting in a safari vehicle and not able to walk around in the bush, then a zoom becomes necessary at least for my photography style. You never know how an animal moves and when they come closer, it is great if you just can zoom out without having to change lenses or camera/lens combinations and vice versa if the move away.

    While the upcoming 90-280 is not my wildlife dream lens (that would be something like 80-400 or 200-500), it is at least a good staring point and maybe a lens I could nicely live with. And maybe they will bring a TC1.4 in some time (although I fear that might be rather years then months).

    What I am thinking more and more is to use the SL as my one FF camera where I can mount all my M glass and achieve great results and also of course native SL lenses once they become available. And there might also be some R lenses available second hand over time, which I could see to rebut again, like the excellent 2.8/180 APO.

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    Re: Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Anyway, who care about the zooms here ?? I just ask because most of Leica users I know use prime lenses. The zooms have been released for the mass, for the newcomer in the brand (or the guy who really NEED it). The actual Leica users KNOW that they will use primes on it so the bulkiness isn't a problem anymore.


    Most "actual" Leica users are using other brands. The "masses" were never with Leica. There are no "newcomers".

    A prime is a dinner served at a Leica product launch.

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