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Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

Leica calls this a pro camera, one has to look how a pro camera integrates with the rest of the system the maker provides as to perform tasks that where not served (or where underserved) up to that point... With this camera Leica provides the following:
1. Clean high ISO (as clean any pro would ever require) for events photography.
2. High speed for sports photography
3. Back up camera to the S system
4. Full compatibility with the S-lenses via the S-L adapter and hence to the leaf shutter lenses (but C645 & Hassy H lenses too)
5. A cheap MFDB for Sinar cameras (notice how wide & of shallow depth the T-mount is as to help photons to reach the sensor... it is as easy as if it was an MFDB).
6. Ability to use the same lenses (of the S) with a view camera too and full electronic communication (the interface is the same as the S-L adapter)..... it's only a cable to connect the front and rear standard (or internal wiring) needed.
7. A really capable motion video camera for professional use (again with the same lenses) and even the ability of full lens movements if one integrates a mini view camera between the camera and the lens.

So, one would expect for Sinar to enter the "mini view camera" (like the Actus) soon (which obviously was going to happen anyway since this is about the only view camera market that has enough demand anymore) and then a pro user could invest on the S-system and with only 3-4 lenses, perform all tasks that he may ever need by just adding a 601 body & a Sinar view camera... all in one bag and all coming from the same supplier....

It won't surprise me if they'll come up with a future version that will have multishot "true color" abilities and even ability to export RAW video... as to make this a most attractive system even to the most demanding pro... In fact I bet you my hat (I don't have any :) ) they will...
1. Like every camera you can buy right now. 2. Completely crippled by the AF system. 3. Sure.

The rest are complete conjecture on your part. None of these products exist and I haven't seen confirmation that the SL is even compatible with the CS function on S lenses. If everything you say comes to fruition then they'll have an interesting functional system...but so far it's an A7 copy with only one variable aperture zoom lens and a 50/1.4 a whole year away. Your last assumptions also assume that no-one else will have such feature integration. They surely will, especially the ones chasing video. For my part, DSLR video is becoming less and less relevant since Canon, Sony, Black Magic, Digital Bolex, and others have far surpassed DSLR or mirrorless capabilities with hardly any relevant price premium.
 

ohnri

New member
I have been using Leica cameras very nearly my entire life.

For a time, I was heavily invested in Leica lenses and digital bodies.

If I still were, this camera would be a no brainier for me.

It offers significant new functionality to Leica users.

I have my own opinions about what camera does more or less for me today.

But, beyond doubt, this is a milestone camera for Leica and I hope it does well and encourages other companies to push the mirrorless boundaries in new directions.

-Bill
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Weddings may as well be the zenith if you're positioned right. Ad budgets are pretty sparse. I work in NYC and though I do know a few people who own a Leica for personal work nobody shoots professionally with them as their main system camera. Once this system grows there is definitely something interesting here but they should have waited a year until they had their primes done. Also if they wanted to attract the pro market it would be $5000 with a lens. The price indicates to me this is for wealthy weekend warriors or just bored wealthy people. If you are a commercial pro and you get one of these thinking that Leica mojo will make up for what you could do with a 645Z or D810, you are looking at the world through red dot colored glasses. Something I see a lot from SL apologists.
With respect Speedgraphic, it also seems as though you are viewing the SL with blinders as well. Not every professional photographer is working under the criteria you set. Mat brought up the point that certain photographers (and I think he and I are in this group, as is Marc) are willing to pay more for Leica equipment not just for the lenses, but also for design and usability of the camera system. As professionals, we use the cameras constantly, and for some of us the difference in cost between an A7rII and an SL is not a deal breaker when you consider that this is the main tool that we will have to use for the next two to four years (minimum...I would guess). Currently I use the S system and the Alpha series cameras (primarily for video and for a compact alternative to the S for travel), and as much as I respect the Sonys for their capabilities, I am frustrated by them in use. I simply do not get on with handling them, whereas the S and other Leica cameras I have used just feel "right". If the SL can meet or exceed the Sonys on the video front, I would likely sell the Alphas for the SL. Selling the A7S, A7Rii and two lenses would cover the cost of the SL, which I could use with S and M lenses that I already have. So at least for my personal calculation, the SL could make sense. I am not sold on it yet, but certain things about it are very promising to me, as someone who works as a photographer:

1. The interface and ergonomics appear excellent, as they seem to be based on the S system, which I use and know to be superb. I can operate my entire S kit in -10C with heavy mittens on, and just as easily do so in the studio for when I do artwork reproduction. The alpha series really suffers here, at least to my mind. Poor battery life, cluttered and illogical menu systems and lockouts on certain settings in different modes...the keys are not easy to operate surely with gloves or in the dark etc.

2. The video seems to have been well thought out, and while Sony is a hugely impressive performer in this regard, the SL bests it on paper so far, at least in terms of signal fidelity and resolution. It will do Cinema 4k and will output 10bit 4:2:2 to an external recorder, such as the Pix-E5H that I am using.

3. The VF and speed of operation seem significantly better...the A7S and A7Rii both take several long seconds to turn on...

4. The SL looks to do a better job with the lenses that I currently own. I have a number of older M lenses, alongside my S lenses. The A7Rii and A7S do not really function well with my M lenses below 75mm. They can be useful for video, particularly in super 35 mode, but you have to use them fairly carefully...that does not appear to be the case on the SL, which is good news. The prospect of using the S lenses with AF on the SL also seems quite attractive, even if they will be fairly bulky. At the moment, it is not possible to use the S lenses on Sony, so being able to use them for video and stills on a body with better ISO and video capabilities than my 006 is quite attractive.

In any case, I don't mean to pick on you, and I do agree that the SL is not going to be a persuasive camera for most professionals who are not already heavily invested in Leica gear, but at the same time it IS an interesting camera that will persuade some professionals...we are quite a diverse group...there is room for all sorts. I know a successful professional here that does much of her work on a Nikon F3 shooting clothing adverts and weddings on film, and in the same market I do artwork reproduction, editorial and sell prints taken using the S. To each their own.
 
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ohnri

New member
With respect Speedgraphic, it also seems as though you are viewing the SL with blinders as well. Not every professional photographer is working under the criteria you set. Mat brought up the point that certain photographers (and I think he and I are in this group, as is Marc) are willing to pay more for Leica equipment not just for the lenses, but also for design and usability of the camera system. As professionals, we use the cameras constantly, and for some of us the difference in cost between an A7rII and an SL is not a deal breaker when you consider that this is the main tool that we will have to use for the next two to four years (minimum...I would guess). Currently I use the S system and the Alpha series cameras (primarily for video and for a compact alternative to the S for travel), and as much as I respect the Sonys for their capabilities, I am frustrated by them in use. I simply do not get on with handling them, whereas the S and other Leica cameras I have used just feel "right". If the SL can meet or exceed the Sonys on the video front, I would likely sell the Alphas for the SL. Selling the A7S, A7Rii and two lenses would cover the cost of the SL, which I could use with S and M lenses that I already have. So at least for my personal calculation, the SL could make sense. I am not sold on it yet, but certain things about it are very promising to me, and quite to me as someone who works as a photographer:

1. The interface and ergonomics appear excellent, as they seem to be based on the S system, which I use and know to be superb. I can operate my entire S kit in -10C with heavy mittens on, and just as easily do so in the studio for when I do artwork reproduction. The alpha series really suffers here, at least to my mind. Poor battery life, cluttered and illogical menu systems and lockouts on certain settings in different modes...the keys are not easy to operate surely with gloves or in the dark etc.

2. The video seems to have been well thought out, and while Sony is a hugely impressive performer in this regard, the SL bests it on paper so far, at least in terms of signal fidelity and resolution. It will do Cinema 4k and will output 10bit 4:2:2 to an external recorder, such as the Pix-E5H that I am using.

3. The VF and speed of operation seem significantly better...the A7S and A7Rii both take several long seconds to turn on...

4. The SL looks to do a better job with the lenses that I currently own. I have a number of older M lenses, alongside my S lenses. The A7Rii and A7S do not really function well with my M lenses below 75mm. They can be useful for video, particularly in super 35 mode, but you have to use them fairly carefully...that does not appear to be the case on the SL, which is good news. The prospect of using the S lenses with AF on the SL also seems quite attractive, even if they will be fairly bulky. At the moment, it is not possible to use the S lenses on Sony, so being able to use them for video and stills on a body with better ISO and video capabilities than my 006 is quite attractive.

In any case, I don't mean to pick on you, and I do agree that the SL is not going to be a persuasive camera for most professionals who are not already heavily invested in Leica gear, but at the same time it IS an interesting camera that will persuade some professionals...we are quite a diverse group...there is room for all sorts. I know a successful professional here that does much of her work on a Nikon F3 shooting clothing adverts and weddings on film, and in the same market I do artwork reproduction, editorial and sell prints taken using the S. To each their own.
4K video is S35 only.

I don't think the Leica is beating the Sony A7r2 for video.

I am quite certain that it does not match the A7s2 for video.

-Bill
 
M

mjr

Guest
All very reasonable responses Stuart, nothing wrong with being passionate about things Speedgraphic but you may have slipped in to something a little beyond reasonable, the camera isn't for you, that's clear but your reasons for not liking it have no baring on those that do, surely. Like Stuart, I have an extensive S kit, the 006 is now backup to my 007 but the SL could possibly do a far better job, the 24-90 in addition to what I have now and it's done. I can appreciate that we are different but really wish you'd chill out just a little, move on if you are so vehemently opposed.

Pro's and amateurs all have different lists of requirements, it's not reasonable to expect yours to be universal, same as I don't expect mine to be, it's just a box with a sensor and a lens mount, what we do with it is the most important thing.

Mat
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
I am curious how you came to that conclusion when you have not seen video from it yet, and we know very little to nothing about its implementation, and you blithely disregard its superior specs for resolution and signal fidelity over hdmi? You may well be right, but I think it is a little early to tell...the fact that it is super 35 only is true, but the super 35 is more usable and higher quality on the A7rII as well. In any case, it will be interesting to see how it fares. As I tried to indicate in my post, it is a whole system affair, and for most that will lead them to Sony, but for me the SL could be persuasive. The S 007 also offers some of this functionality, so I may consider that as well, but a hybrid kit of the S 006 and SL is looking quite good to me now.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Stuart, if you are a reviewer, all the points you list might make sense. But as a potential switcher from Sony to Leica, the expectations do not sound good.

Battery life (check out the numbers out there) isn't grand for the SL (same tech, similar restraints).

Video will not be better than your A7s.

Start up times may be slightly better and EVF signifcantly better although the LCD stays put.

Your old M lens will not do any better on the SL than on your A7r II. Only the mdern M lenses are likely to do well on any modern digital camera.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Oh Leica says it's a pro cam. That's settles it. Also any camera with an EVF allows you to preview the final image as do the SLRs in live view for tripod situations. That's why EVFs are so great, but Leica is not the first to employ them.
The SL's EyeRes EVF sets a new standard. Yes, this suggestion alone is enough to convince the die hard OVF proponents.
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
1. Like every camera you can buy right now. 2. Completely crippled by the AF system. 3. Sure.

The rest are complete conjecture on your part. None of these products exist and I haven't seen confirmation that the SL is even compatible with the CS function on S lenses. If everything you say comes to fruition then they'll have an interesting functional system...but so far it's an A7 copy with only one variable aperture zoom lens and a 50/1.4 a whole year away. Your last assumptions also assume that no-one else will have such feature integration. They surely will, especially the ones chasing video. For my part, DSLR video is becoming less and less relevant since Canon, Sony, Black Magic, Digital Bolex, and others have far surpassed DSLR or mirrorless capabilities with hardly any relevant price premium.
For another maker to come up with a similar solution, there has to be an in family division (like Sinar) that is experienced with view cameras that are not dummy with communication interface... Now, as far as I know there isn't another maker that has such a division under control, nor I think that they bought Sinar to "just have it" or loose more money with it... OTOH, the recently introduced mini view cameras is the only section of the particular market currently that has worthwhile sales (but lucks communication interface)... So, it's not a guessing to predict that Sinar will enter the "mini view camera" market soon... it's rather a safe prediction (because otherwise it would prove Leica stupid not to take advantage of the ability they have), nor there is a reason to not use the (ready) interface they have on their view cameras... Actually there should be such a solution (SL 601 for back - S mount on the front standard) offered with the P3 soon...

In fact, after the T series was introduced, I noticed the size of the mount and the shallow depth of the sensor position and I asked Leica people if there is a FF sensor planned for it as to use instead of an MFDB on Sinars... I got a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig smile as a reply... (which usually implies a definite "yes")

Now, having the LS activated using the S adapter doesn't require any particular new technology that is not known to them... In fact it would be (again) stupid of them to exclude it since it costs nothing and can only add them sales... As for the video camera plans they have, this is clear since they also claim full compatibility with the Leica pro lenses for cinema (again by offering a dedicated adapter for that)...

But despite all the above, one must think that Leica is run from people that have a much better sense of photographer's needs than P1 or Hasselblad or others that are run from marketeers that only do fatal mistakes by closing their systems and restrict their usability (that's why they made the C-adapter & H-adapter while others would think that "this way we will loose lens sales")...

I don't see how one would expect a company to restrict its camera (obvious) capabilities thus reducing sales and diminishing the abilities of the system to only a "Sony competitor"... They aren't stupid to stay with that, are they?
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
I think if you're going to rely on a facial expression as evidence of something, you should post a photo of the smiler.
Yet, here you are with a FF mirrorless that can be used instead of an MFDB on a view camera better than any other camera on the market... Now if one thinks that they designed it like this by accident and bought Sinar at the same time not to use it on it (and thus throwing away easy money)... Certainly thinks of them as if they are stupid....

EDIT: ...And if another thinks that they also make the lenses and the interface ready for the SL-601 to perform great on their view cameras and they'll ...refuse (!!!) to do use them (throwing more sales out of the window), ...he certainly thinks of them as being twice as stupid... Last thing they are though...
 
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ohnri

New member
I am curious how you came to that conclusion when you have not seen video from it yet, and we know very little to nothing about its implementation, and you blithely disregard its superior specs for resolution and signal fidelity over hdmi? You may well be right, but I think it is a little early to tell...the fact that it is super 35 only is true, but the super 35 is more usable and higher quality on the A7rII as well. In any case, it will be interesting to see how it fares. As I tried to indicate in my post, it is a whole system affair, and for most that will lead them to Sony, but for me the SL could be persuasive. The S 007 also offers some of this functionality, so I may consider that as well, but a hybrid kit of the S 006 and SL is looking quite good to me now.
I'm not saying it blithely at all.

IBIS, Gorgeous Full Frame 4K, and insane lowlight performance handily trumps the typical HDMI Panasonic sensor specs, cue up the GH4, you refer to on this one. There is no way someone can make a blanket statement that the SL equals the A7s2 on video overall.

I doubt it beats the A7r2 either but I would withhold judgement on that until I see the output. After all, the A7r2 has poop for Full Frame 4K video.

None of that keeps the SL from being right for you or anyone else. It may clobber the A7s2 for your personal use because of gear you already own or other factors.

-Bill
 
After one day we've had a web-full of opinions in addition to some actual reviews! So far it seems opinions differ mainly in terms of posters' expectations of what an SL was expected to be:

1. A small, light, mirrorless camera – in effect a Q with interchangeable lenses? From that standpoint it's a failure in relation to expectations/suppositions, because that's just not what it is.

2. A major improvement over other mirrorless cameras, and obviously 'worth it'? This seems to be where opinions (in the absence of experience) differ most, with pros and cons about body and lens heft, ergonomics, AF, 'features,' lens quality, video, legacy lens holdings and new lens lines, mega-megapixels, articulated screens, whatever. All the sites I've sampled say something about the A7rII / SL comparison, and it looks like the weight of opinion is that Leica didn't step far enough ahead for the SL to be clearly worth it to many or most of those expecting (2).

3. Something new and larger, at the old R level but below the S level; a pro-DSLR-killer or at least a 'contenda'? Maybe so, but you can't tell until it becomes a 'system.' In the meantime it seems useful especially to those with legacy R glass, or those wanting a backup for Leica S.

And after one day of reading I've arrived at My Own Definitive Opinion:

I was hoping for (1) or (2), not particularly (3). It's not (1), and as (2), it's not worth it to me, for two reasons:

a. At present I find nothing really disappointing about my A7rII and mix of Leica M, Zeiss Sony, and Zeiss Contax lenses. It doesn't handle as nicely as Leica Ms, but it's quite competent in the under-medium-format sphere.

b. Looking ahead, I'm concerned about the time-line that makes Leica products almost obsolescent by the time you can get your hands on them. It takes Leica so long to produce what they've announced that I see no reason to acquire a body in this series now. By the time they produce the AF primes or the shorter zoom that I'd need, the initial SL would probably be 'yesterday' in terms of what Leica or the rest of the industry would be offering. So looking ahead, it's wait-and-see. I hope to handle or try one, before I let any facts get in the way of my opinion.

Kirk
 
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rsmphoto

Member
All very reasonable responses Stuart, nothing wrong with being passionate about things Speedgraphic but you may have slipped in to something a little beyond reasonable, the camera isn't for you, that's clear but your reasons for not liking it have no baring on those that do, surely. Like Stuart, I have an extensive S kit, the 006 is now backup to my 007 but the SL could possibly do a far better job, the 24-90 in addition to what I have now and it's done. I can appreciate that we are different but really wish you'd chill out just a little, move on if you are so vehemently opposed.

Pro's and amateurs all have different lists of requirements, it's not reasonable to expect yours to be universal, same as I don't expect mine to be, it's just a box with a sensor and a lens mount, what we do with it is the most important thing.

Mat
Amen!
 

thrice

Active member
Does anyone know if this camera will stop down R lenses when the eventual adapter arrives? In that case it could be considered a true 'R solution'.
 

lambert

New member
Yeah and it's worth noting that the SL only does 11fps with fixed AF and AEL (worthless) With continuous AF active you only get 7fps. So there's quite a gap between this camera and Canikon which does 11-12fps effortlessly. That's what the proven hybrid PDAF systems provide.
I find it baffling that considering this is one of the big selling points of the SL, not one of the Leica appointed reviewers presented any images showing the effectiveness when shooting action at 11 fps. Their images are all of stationary subjects which could just as well have been taken with a Sigma DP1.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Just to check in . I was thinking of making some popcorn. Anyone want some. :clap::bugeyes::facesmack::ROTFL::watch::watch:


Sinar the last I looked they where out of business.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Perhaps it's just me, but if I am going to spend money at a nosebleed level for a product, I expect it to offer extraordinary capabilities, not run of the mill capabilities. If I buy a Ferrari or a Porsche GTS, I expect state of the art capabilities in straight line performance, cornering ability, braking, etc. The SL simply doesn't. A 24 MP FF sensor at that price point is like buying a Ferrari for $200k with a 6 cylinder engine that puts out 240 hp. The only reason for it is that Leica did not want to encroach on the 37.5 MP sensor of its S lineup. The SL does not break any new ground in terms of its capabilities. The only new ground it breaks is in the sheer size and weight of the body and lenses for a mirrorless camera. If you think the SL 24-90 zoom is gargantuan, have a look at the next zoom lens for the SL: http://www.dpreview.com/files/p/art...ica-APO-Vario-Elmarit-SL_90-280_ASPH_top.jpeg. Are they serious? Did it not occur to them that the success of the Sony A7 series of cameras was about packaging state of the art capabilities in a groundbreaking small form factor? Did it not occur to them that there are large numbers of photographers who really have no interest in carrying around heavy equipment? These photographers have done it over the years out of necessity in order to achieve the technical performance that they want/need for their craft, but they don't WANT to carry around 10 pound dumbbells on a hike or on a walk around a city or for travel.
To me, Leica has missed the boat here. What they should have done is come out with a mirrorless camera with the same small and light form factor as the Sony A7 but with an intelligent and elegant menu system, put a 50 MP sensor in it, and have a full line of slow, light manual focus lenses that are F/2.8 or F/4, cost a bundle and offer Otus level performance. Too bad.
 
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