Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

[Jorgen Udvang]

I'm not saying it blithely at all.

IBIS, Gorgeous Full Frame 4K, and insane lowlight performance handily trumps the typical HDMI Panasonic sensor specs, cue up the GH4, you refer to on this one. There is no way someone can make a blanket statement that the SL equals the A7s2 on video overall.

I doubt it beats the A7r2 either but I would withhold judgement on that until I see the output. After all, the A7r2 has poop for Full Frame 4K video.

None of that keeps the SL from being right for you or anyone else. It may clobber the A7s2 for your personal use because of gear you already own or other factors.

-Bill

The problem with the A7s2 is that it's a 12MP camera. I'd be surprised if the SL isn't better than the A7R2 for video, but we obviously don't know that yet, although some initial video reviews are already very enthusiastic. What's problematic using A7 cameras for photo and video, is that one needs two bodies to get optimal quality for both. Although that kind of includes a backup body "for free", they are different enough for that not being the case entirely as well.

But that is one of the areas where these two camera system differ, and that's a good thing. People do have different needs, and I don't doubt for a second that Sony will outsell Leica at a rate of 10 : 1 or better. But if I could choose, I'm quite sure that I'd go for the German gadget, particularly since I've tried and rejected the Sonys so many times.

 

[ddanois]

The lens flexibility of the SL seems understated...how long before someone makes a nikon or canon lens adapter to fit this Leica?

I can appreciate the hi-res viewfinder but I'm missing the point of this camera.

 

[Paratom]

So if the camera still has some value after 150k shots, it's even cheaper to run then

Yes, I can buy two D810 instead of an SL, and probably a D7200 too. And maybe even the D810 offers superior image quality. It's very good. I know that because I use it every day. Still, the value lost per day or per click wouldn't make much difference to my photography budget. Airline tickets, food and other costs do.

But if I want to do video (I do, that's part of my work), if I want to do manual focusing (I do, most of my lenses are manual) or if I want a long reach standard zoom that is (hopefully) better than the Nikkor 24-120mm, it doesn't help me that the D810 is half the price. As much as I love the Nikon, even a Panasonic G7 does a better job in certain areas. The SL, obvioulsy even more so.

yes Jurgen,
but if you would want to use a nice native 35 or 58 mm f1.4 lens with AF or if you wanted to shoot in CAF it wouldnt help to have a SL even if it is the double price.

 

[iiiNelson]

I am not trying to pick an argument, but I have been happliy using my R lenses (Once Leica could get the M-R adapter out to the public which was 15 months from Photokina). What is not credible about the M240 platform using R lenses. IMHO, just because the EVF is crap on the M240 and superb on the SL does not bring credibility to the R lens solution.

The ergonomics with the M aren't great to me without a half case even with M-mount lenses but I have large hands. IMO the SL would be a much better option for the R lenses.

I had another thought that would make this camera a bit easier to swallow... If it were a full on 24mp "S light" with the same sized medium format system. I think this would make it an easier pill to swallow. There would already be a system of lenses and it would give S users a cheaper backup that offered "fat pixels." On some level it would be a bargain and a replacement for the need to put out S-E cameras.

 

[iiiNelson]

I find it baffling that considering this is one of the big selling points of the SL, not one of the Leica appointed reviewers presented any images showing the effectiveness when shooting action at 11 fps. Their images are all of stationary subjects which could just as well have been taken with a Sigma DP1.

Mine thing that I found with many high frame rate cameras is that the shutter might operate that fast but good luck actually getting most of your burst in focus in less than optimum light. This was very obvious with my A77 and several pro APS-C Canon bodies I used prior to the 7D.

I think the lack of images are by design and maybe the feature wasn't up to snuff on pre production bodies. Sometimes what isn't said is telling. Truthfully it's not a feature that I'd probably use often anyway if I owned the camera.

 

[John Black]

Does anyone know if this camera will stop down R lenses when the eventual adapter arrives? In that case it could be considered a true 'R solution'.

I've asked this question to my dealer who happens to be in Germany right now; the answer he got was "TBD". I think the the forthcoming R adapter (Leica's website say Autumn 2016) will read the ROM contacts, but I doubt it will have a mechanical actuator for stopping down the aperture blades.

Implementing the aperture actuator seems like it would be expensive assuming all the costs are divided across 5,000 adapters (how many R owners are going to buy a SL and then also an R adapter?) From a technical standpoint, getting the aperture timing to work suggest a fairly deep implementation too.

I also asked if Leica still does 3-Cam to ROM upgrades and they do. The price is ~$350 USD per lens. If I hear anything else, I'll post an update.

 

[uhoh7]

SLshot by All The Websters, review photo, not by me.

Cry, bash, whine, lament all you wish.

It's not for me either, but I know an incredibly built and minutely thought out camera when I see one. Many features put it way ahead of the Sony: EVF, 4K (ouch, Panda, we know that's behind most decisions in the r2), stepped focus MAG, friendly to film lenses, incredible weather proofing (take it to gulf of alaska in winter, without boat), and many many small beautiful touches. MP, no, one Sony model is ahead.

And for once Sony can claim they don't have the least AF lens options LOL

But the herd says: "ugh, big shiny thing, looks like my Sony, costs money, evil Leica, and it's friends insult my Sony!" Charge!!!

It doesn't matter a whit what 99% of us think of it. It's not a mass market camera. They will sell every one they can make. For very good reasons.

 

[John Black]

In reference to Sinar, we've got some short memories here... Leica bought the outstanding shares about 2 years ago (at the time Leica already ~50% of the company) --- Sinar Purchased.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

In reference to Sinar, we've got some short memories here... Leica bought the outstanding shares about 2 years ago (at the time Leica already ~50% of the company) --- Sinar Purchased.

Sorry I don't follow leicas purchases but Sinar has been very quiet here in the states as I only know one dealer that sold there products. Very little at that.

More to the point these cams on a tech cam are limited to mostly normal and longer focal lengths.

 

[ptomsu]

So if the camera still has some value after 150k shots, it's even cheaper to run then

Yes, I can buy two D810 instead of an SL, and probably a D7200 too. And maybe even the D810 offers superior image quality. It's very good. I know that because I use it every day. Still, the value lost per day or per click wouldn't make much difference to my photography budget. Airline tickets, food and other costs do.

But if I want to do video (I do, that's part of my work), if I want to do manual focusing (I do, most of my lenses are manual) or if I want a long reach standard zoom that is (hopefully) better than the Nikkor 24-120mm, it doesn't help me that the D810 is half the price. As much as I love the Nikon, even a Panasonic G7 does a better job in certain areas. The SL, obvioulsy even more so.

Well, time to buy one

 

[msadat]

somebody mentioned about samsung is the new leica partner, it seems samsung is shutting the camera business.

 

[k-hawinkler]

Dr. Ulrich Rohde at it again.

He is happy: Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

 

[ohnri]

The problem with the A7s2 is that it's a 12MP camera. I'd be surprised if the SL isn't better than the A7R2 for video, but we obviously don't know that yet, although some initial video reviews are already very enthusiastic. What's problematic using A7 cameras for photo and video, is that one needs two bodies to get optimal quality for both. Although that kind of includes a backup body "for free", they are different enough for that not being the case entirely as well.

But that is one of the areas where these two camera system differ, and that's a good thing. People do have different needs, and I don't doubt for a second that Sony will outsell Leica at a rate of 10 : 1 or better. But if I could choose, I'm quite sure that I'd go for the German gadget, particularly since I've tried and rejected the Sonys so many times.

No doubt the 12 MP is a deal breaker for some hybrid camera users. And the A7r2 4K video is crippled in FF mode.

I actually am excited about the SL and look forward to positive reviews, high quality stills with robust image files and, yes, great videos. My involvement in the Leica ecosystem has dwindled to the point of only having historical equipment and I am happy that way. If I still had current digital Leica gear the SL would be my obsession.

Even if I were still heavily involved in Nikon, with the large camera bodies, I might consider the SL for its excellent hybrid capabilities and robust build.

-Bill

 

[lambert]

No doubt the 12 MP is a deal breaker for some hybrid camera users. And the A7r2 4K video is crippled in FF mode.

I actually am excited about the SL and look forward to positive reviews, high quality stills with robust image files and, yes, great videos. My involvement in the Leica ecosystem has dwindled to the point of only having historical equipment and I am happy that way. If I still had current digital Leica gear the SL would be my obsession.

Even if I were still heavily involved in Nikon, with the large camera bodies, I might consider the SL for its excellent hybrid capabilities and robust build.

-Bill

How is the A7RII crippled in 4k mode?

 

[ohnri]

How is the A7RII crippled in 4k mode?

It is crippled in FF 4K mode with decreased resolution and more moire and artifacts. It is very good in its S35 4K mode.

The SL shoots 4K only in S35 mode and is likely high quality.

For either camera Speedboosters may significantly compensate for S35 and bring them closer to FF.

The A7s2 shoots 4K only in FF mode. And it is beautiful. After shooting with it tonight I temporarily like it even better than my A7r2. I'll have to play with the stills and videos more to make a final determination.

-Bill

 

[lambert]

It is crippled in FF 4K mode with decreased resolution and more moire and artifacts. It is very good in its S35 4K mode.

The SL shoots 4K only in S35 mode and is likely high quality.

For either camera Speedboosters may significantly compensate for S35 and bring them closer to FF.

The A7s2 shoots 4K only in FF mode. And it is beautiful. After shooting with it tonight I temporarily like it even better than my A7r2. I'll have to play with the stills and videos more to make a final determination.

-Bill

I would be interested to see an actual comparison from you showing how the A7RII is crippled in 4K, since Cinema5d has a different view (based on real use & lab tests):

"What we could see when comparing the two modes is that indeed the Super35 Crop Mode is very nice and a tad sharper and cleaner than the Full Frame Mode. But we were also surprised to see that the Full Frame Mode is actually not bad at all.

In fact I would say it can easily be scaled down to 3K or even go as 4K and look very nice. It’s really not so easy to tell the difference between the two modes so Full Frame must be good. Aliasing is not strong in full frame mode, there is a tiny bit here and there, but to be honest it’s hard to find.

So if you need the best quality you will want to go with crop mode, but if you’re not a pixel peeper than Full Frame Mode will serve you just as well.

In comparison to the Sony A7S in 4K it’s really really hard to tell the difference and I dare you to try. The most apparent difference is the A7S running at a base ISO of 3200 and the Sony A7RII running at a base ISO of 800. You can see the grain and compression / noise reduction artefacts on the A7S on moving images. The Sony A7RII looks a bit cleaner. As a still they look virtually identical."


https://www.cinema5d.com/sony-a7rii-a7s-lab/

 

[PeterA]

Looks Ok to me -and will probably be my upgrade from M9 - just for the heck of it. Should be available - what 2nd quarter 2016?

 

[T.Dascalos]

Sorry I don't follow leicas purchases but Sinar has been very quiet here in the states as I only know one dealer that sold there products. Very little at that.

More to the point these cams on a tech cam are limited to mostly normal and longer focal lengths.

All Sinar's distribution is made through the Leica dealers after the company's shares passed to Leica. The latest Leica mount (the T-mount) was designed to accept a FF sensor in a way that if used on view camera the light perception would be totally unobscured and as such the camera could provide an alternative to the (expensive) use of an MFDB on a view camera with lenses of narrower diameter image circle than the ones needed to cover the image area of an MFDB...

As for WAs, the Sinar S-line goes down to 24mm and so does the (interface compatible) Hasselblad - H 24mm, but wider image circle lenses of the DSLR kind (like the Canon 17mm TSE & the 24mm TSE or the Nikkor 24mm PC or the Samyang 24mm PC and some more) provide enough image circle as to allow movements on a 36x24mm sensor.

 

[anGy]

There maybe is a fun opportunity to get a tilt/shift option with the new SL:
Put a S to T adapter then a H to S adapter and you can mount HC lenses on the Leica SL.
Take the Hasselblad HTS Tilt Shift mount and remove the optical part (+1.5 extender effect cancelled) and use the HC 24mm.
If that works, you get an SL with a very high quality 24mm T-S option, if cost is no issue for you

ps: no idea if would work, maybe it isn't possible to remove the optical part of the HTS and have an image in focus, but that's funny anyway.

 

[algrove]

It's not for me either, but I know an incredibly built and minutely thought out camera when I see one. Many features put it way ahead of the Sony: EVF, 4K (ouch, Panda, we know that's behind most decisions in the r2), stepped focus MAG, friendly to film lenses, incredible weather proofing (take it to gulf of alaska in winter, without boat), and many many small beautiful touches. MP, no, one Sony model is ahead.


If I may say so, that is 2 Sony models with the release of the RX1R2.

Please all keep in mind the only reason to many that bthis model does not have more MP is due to the factbthat the flagship Leica S has but 37.5 MP and some insiders say they cannot easily resign the sensor without some lens rework too.