Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

[mjr]

Algrove, read my post again, I clearly state...

There is no more highlight or shadow recovery in the Z than in the 007, I have a couple of hundred Z raws and thousands of S files.

The Z is the latest camera isn't it? The S 007 is the latest S too.

The Z is cheaper, yes, I said that it's not part of my equation, I use the S to make a living and would have gladly used the Z if it worked for me. The benefit of a good dealer is also paramount, I never pay anywhere close to those prices.

So unsurprisingly we have the Z being cheaper, everyone knows that and I can only compare it against the older S not the newer one, ok, got it!

Enjoy your Z, I'm not in competition with you, I can honestly state that it doesn't matter to me in the slightest what you use as long as you feel good about it and enjoy it, what else could possibly matter!

Mat

EDIT I misread your post, thought you said you were comparing 006 against the Z not the 007, my mistake, ignore first bit, I'm adding this rather than just deleting! I can state though that the Z files I shot do not have any real difference to the 007 for shadow recovery.

 

[algrove]

Algrove, read my post again, I clearly state...

There is no more highlight or shadow recovery in the Z than in the 007, I have a couple of hundred Z raws and thousands of S files.

The Z is the latest camera isn't it? The S 007 is the latest S too.

The Z is cheaper, yes, I said that it's not part of my equation, I use the S to make a living and would have gladly used the Z if it worked for me. The benefit of a good dealer is also paramount, I never pay anywhere close to those prices.

So unsurprisingly we have the Z being cheaper, everyone knows that and I can only compare it against the older S not the newer one, ok, got it!

Enjoy your Z, I'm not in competition with you, I can honestly state that it doesn't matter to me in the slightest what you use as long as you feel good about it and enjoy it, what else could possibly matter!

Mat

EDIT I misread your post, thought you said you were comparing 006 against the Z not the 007, my mistake, ignore first bit, I'm adding this rather than just deleting! I can state though that the Z files I shot do not have any real difference to the 007 for shadow recovery.

I like your wooden floor where you placed your camera bag.

 

[mjr]

It's nice isn't it, a lot of evenings sanding them!

 

[turtle]

Mat, I am not suggesting the S007 is a bad camera (I think its pretty nice actually), only that 11 months between announcement and release is looong. Were the camera to have arrived with ground breaking performance few would have cared; however, it arrived with a 37.5MP sensor. To many photographers (and the market) that matters. To me? It would depend on usage. As a landscape camera, I'd take the Z any day. For events and all round commercial work, I'd be struggling to find a reason not to use a D810.

37.5MP is not 'bad' - far from it - but it does not help the camera to clearly differentiate itself from the likes of the D810. No, I do not think they are 'the same', only that it makes it harder to sell the S007. I agree that the Canon 5DS has pushed that sensor architecture too far, but it has 50MP - more than the S and the same as the Z. Bigger pixels are nice, yes, but the S007 is closer to D810 territory than it should be, I personally think. Yes, the S performs well, but I am surprised to hear you say it performs on the same level as the Z with regard to dynamic range and shadow recovery, because most other commentators suggest otherwise (including with noise). The Z also has more pixels. That might not matter to you, but to many buyers it does and I cannot help but feel that a 50MP S007 would have done a much better job catching people's attention at the date of actual availability.

The key selling point with the S is, as you say, the ergonomics and lenses. However, to be fair, the system is a lot more expensive than the 645Z. 2 x Z bodies is $14K. Two S007 bodies is $34K. The Pentax 90mm macro is $4500. The Leica lenses are a bit more expensive, with $5k for the 70mm and $7K for the 100mm, however in fairness to the Pentax, their 90mm is stabilised, as is the 28-45, which runs at half the price of a Leica S zoom. BUT, the two are very different cameras and so I do not see this is a competition between the two.

My original point was that releasing a 37.5MP MF camera at a time when FF has all but perfected 36MP and is looking upwards (and when loads of amazing Zeiss lenses are coming to market) 11 months after announcement was a bit of a let down. I know many S006 users felt very frustrated for the same reasons. My comments are in relation to how many potential customers respond to these developments and what this might mean in terms of sales, not whether the camera is good and desirable to people who appreciate its spec.

Would I love a S007 and do I think it is a great camera? Yes. But that is a different point. The reason all this came up is that I fear Leica is gonna be too slow on the release of optics to make the SL viable, but enough people jump in, maybe all will be well and there will be a MK 2 released in 3 years when the lens lineup is more developed.

 

[mjr]

Tom

It's no problem if you feel it's a good or bad camera, I have read your stuff for quite a while and followed your journey through lots of cameras and systems and your requirements are different to mine and it's all good!

50mp is honestly something that isn't a problem for me at all, but then I am shooting to a market, I shoot loads of personal stuff too but I use the same kit. I ran a large Nikon kit for ages and didn't change to the S because I wanted more resolution, obviously, I didn't have an issue with resolution, I changed because of the viewfinder, lenses, weather proofing and to a smaller extent but no less important, everyone has a DSLR where I work and nobody has MF, to some clients it means nothing and to some it's important, mainly because I tell them it is! Haha.

The change from Nikon to Leica for the most part was image quality and the ease I can achieve it, sitting on my computer are thousands and thousands of files, the difference between the D800 and E and the S from a visual viewpoint is substantial to me. I made the decision to offer the best I could for my clients, worked very hard to make the money and have made a lot more money since, entirely down to the S unlikely but I have a renewed passion every time I pick it up!

As above post with pictures of my kit, it's the way I work, I simply couldn't carry 2 Z bodies and the equivalent lenses in the same way, I need a backup system and cost isn't a major factor. I have said before that the profit from my recent Mali trip easily paid for the 007 and the 24mm lens.

Bottom line for me, something that really doesn't need justification by the way, is that the S is the best system I have ever used, I just use it, all the time, every day and wouldn't change anything about it. I honestly hope you guys get the same feeling from the Z.

Mat

By the way Tom, I have told you before that your Afghan drug work is some of the best I have ever seen, I love it! I wouldn't care what you had shot it on, it's the subject I find beautifully portrayed.

 

[jonoslack]

Does anyone know when the SL-S adapters will be available?

Theoretically

R adapter in November
S adapter middle of next year
M adapter - already available (same as the T)

you can also stack the M to T adapter with the current M to R adapter very satisfactorily for R lenses.

So it's only really the S adapter that we'll have to wait for.

 

[fotografz]

Note: Apologies for this Off topic post

Marc, I would love to see an image of your strap kit or know where you purchased it as I do suffer from tendinitis and my 810/Otus combo exacerbates the problem mightily.

Back on topic: After Ming's comments on the grip and seeing the pictures of the SL, I do wonder why the grip has such a sharp return on the inside. It seems to me that the inside curve should closer match the outside curve and would be more comfortable. If I have hands like Ming's (who knows?) then it becomes a problem. But, irregardless, 24mp (is this the same sensor as my M-P?) just isn't enough for a new high-end body at this time - 50 would have knocked it out of the park.

Hi John.

Here is the home site: http://camdapter.com/home.html

First you select an adapter: http://camdapter.com/adapter.html

I use a dual lug version of the ARCA Type Quick Release Adapter because my tripod and monopod heads are ARCA type QR. The dual lug type allows use of a hand strap from the camera strap lug to the adapter lug on one side, and a camera strap from the second adapter lug to the other camera strap lug. When using the shoulder strap, the camera hangs from one end like a M5 does.

Then you select the hand strap: http://camdapter.com/handstrap/prostrap.html

I use the above Pro Strap in black, but there are other style choices.

I can attest to the durability and toughness of this gear. I used them under duress on all my DSLRs and MFD cameras including the Leica S2.

RE: Meg Count: Frankly, 24 meg FF has been a sweet spot for most work I do with a DSLR. More than that starts making the technique required more and more difficult in order to realize the full potential of a 40 or 50 meg FF 35mm sensor. My last 3 DSLRs were 24 meg FF: Nikon D3X, Sony A900 and the Sony A99, and do not recall needing more other than in studio where I use the S camera.

- Marc

 

[algrove]

Theoretically

R adapter in November
S adapter middle of next year
M adapter - already available (same as the T)

you can also stack the M to T adapter with the current M to R adapter very satisfactorily for R lenses.

So it's only really the S adapter that we'll have to wait for.

Jono
Good review. My whole problem here that Leica has dropped the ball by not having the one adapter for guys who could immediately be early adopters-the S lens owners, i.e., S owners.

R lenses work on the M and M lenses work on the M, but S lenses are the important element in my mind for this gorgeous SL.

 

[jonoslack]

RE: Meg Count: Frankly, 24 meg FF has been a sweet spot for most work I do with a DSLR. More than that starts making the technique required more and more difficult in order to realize the full potential of a 40 or 50 meg FF 35mm sensor. My last 3 DSLRs were 24 meg FF: Nikon D3X, Sony A900 and the Sony A99, and do not recall needing more other than in studio where I use the S camera.

- Marc

Hi Marc
I couldn't agree more, 24mp seems to me to be the sweet spot at the moment. I guess there are situations where more would be nice. But 5 years ago most of us were managing well with half as much.

 

[Photo Lawyer]

37.5MP is not 'bad' - far from it - but it does not help the camera to clearly differentiate itself from the likes of the D810. No, I do not think they are 'the same', only that it makes it harder to sell the S007. I agree that the Canon 5DS has pushed that sensor architecture too far, but it has 50MP - more than the S and the same as the Z. Bigger pixels are nice, yes, but the S007 is closer to D810 territory than it should be, I personally think. Yes, the S performs well, but I am surprised to hear you say it performs on the same level as the Z with regard to dynamic range and shadow recovery, because most other commentators suggest otherwise (including with noise). The Z also has more pixels. That might not matter to you, but to many buyers it does and I cannot help but feel that a 50MP S007 would have done a much better job catching people's attention at the date of actual availability.

The math going from 40MP to 50MP adds just over 2 1/2 inches of linear resolution, printing at 300 dpi. That's pretty negligible. And while I don't know exactly who the "most other commentators" might be, the few I came across tested the 007 before Lightroom had created a profile for it. That said, count me in with Andreas Kauffman and Mat, enthusiastic users of one of the best camera systems unleashed on the planet.

It's a whole lot more fun thinking of what kinds of things your kit can do than commiserating on forums about how the world's best camera designers and engineers have just missed it.

 

[T.Dascalos]

Theoretically

R adapter in November
S adapter middle of next year
M adapter - already available (same as the T)

you can also stack the M to T adapter with the current M to R adapter very satisfactorily for R lenses.

So it's only really the S adapter that we'll have to wait for.

The delay of the S-adapter is inevitable since... 1. The same interface will be used for Sinar view cameras, 2. Leaf shutter must be fully operational, 3. Other brand lenses that work flawlessly with the "S" must be integrated with both the TL mount and the Sinar front standard coming...

 

[JohnBrew]

Hi John.

Here is the home site: http://camdapter.com/home.html

First you select an adapter: http://camdapter.com/adapter.html

I use a dual lug version of the ARCA Type Quick Release Adapter because my tripod and monopod heads are ARCA type QR. The dual lug type allows use of a hand strap from the camera strap lug to the adapter lug on one side, and a camera strap from the second adapter lug to the other camera strap lug. When using the shoulder strap, the camera hangs from one end like a M5 does.

Then you select the hand strap: http://camdapter.com/handstrap/prostrap.html

I use the above Pro Strap in black, but there are other style choices.

I can attest to the durability and toughness of this gear. I used them under duress on all my DSLRs and MFD cameras including the Leica S2.

RE: Meg Count: Frankly, 24 meg FF has been a sweet spot for most work I do with a DSLR. More than that starts making the technique required more and more difficult in order to realize the full potential of a 40 or 50 meg FF 35mm sensor. My last 3 DSLRs were 24 meg FF: Nikon D3X, Sony A900 and the Sony A99, and do not recall needing more other than in studio where I use the S camera.

- Marc

Thank you, Marc, for your reply. I'll order the whole shebang tomorrow. As to 24mp, I really can't complain about the resolution of my M-P (which I know from previous posts you don't care for), but the Nikon with an Otus is pretty darn impressive. That said, I'll probably have an S in my quiver fairly soon.

 

[uhoh7]

There are many perspectives from which to view the SL. The noisiest is from current Sony owners, many of whom are terribly sensitive, partly since the Canikon pros still don't take the system seriously, and of course 3K for a r2 is no small price for most of us mortals. If you spent that, irrational attachment may follow. Consider the original entered at 1800 and is now used at below 7. Guy calls that one a beta, but with a Kolari mod it is the cheapest decent FF M option available, and makes very nice images with all sorts of legacy glass, certainly better than the un-modded r2 with no small number of them. Worst thing about it is the highly distracting shutter.

Anyway, this group generally just looked at DPR's picture and blew up :cussing:

Many M owners had exactly the same reaction. :loco: They already didn't like the Sony and this one was bigger and sort of looked like it!

These impulses drove drove countless posts. Some mellowing is currently occurring :watch:

But from the perspective of an S owner or R glass enthusiast it's a wonderful option really bridging all the various Leica systems, even the crop lenset. The discussion on the last page is a good illustration of this, and Ming also touched on the context in his preview.

Leica, although they threw away autofocus back in the day, have been much more clever with the SL than the Sony masses or M 'snobs' (i belong to both groups ) give them credit. Certainly for an S007 shooter who also has an M kit, well you can walk out the door with one body, lenses from each, and any great legacy lens to boot. It makes a second body to either kit as well. Shaving 100 grams and 10% off the footprint would have dampened the shock to some, but it's not like that extra is doing nothing: this camera is far more protected that a Sony a7r2. Armored in comparison. :salute:

As to the price, I'd bet the profit margin on the r2 is twice the margin on the SL, if there is any margin at all, in the end.

Here a few views of the camera by Kristian Dowling:


slside by All The Websters, on Flickr


sl angle by All The Websters, on Flickr

 

[stephengilbert]

"Sony owners, many of whom are terribly sensitive...."

Unlike Leica users, who are quite calm in the face of criticism of their cameras.

 

[MGrayson]

"Sony owners, many of whom are terribly sensitive...."

Unlike Leica users, who are quite calm in the face of criticism of their cameras.

Given the amount of abuse Leica users get? I think they're astonishingly reserved.

 

[T.Dascalos]

"Sony owners, many of whom are terribly sensitive...."

Unlike Leica users, who are quite calm in the face of criticism of their cameras.

Not having respect for equipment that has been related with photo-graphy itself, is the same as not to respect photography itself...

 

[D&A]

Agree that 24 MP is the sweet spot for many endevors, there are occasions when 40-50 MP is very desirable and even necessary. Very large format prints, especially landscapes comes to mind as well as commercial posters size prints for posters for a client as well required the detail of a higher MP camera.

Then again the manageability of a 24MP file size in grip and grin situations and personal use has been a godsend.

What it boils down to is intended use and needs and a case can be made for both 24mp bodies as well as those that have higher resolution. There is no right or wrong.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

One effect of the SL launch is that a decision to release a full frame mirrorless by Canon and Nikon is probably drawing closer, unless it has already been made. With the V3, Nikon has clearly shown that they have the ability and technology available, and it would be foolish to think that Canon doesn't have access to what is needed too. While the A7 must have stolen market shares from the DSLR market that the two brands dominate, they probably haven't seen it as a serious contender to hard use by professionals, and the fact that Sony failed to make a big impression on the DSLR market when they tried 10 years ago, has probably also contributed to the relaxed attitude from the two camera behemoths.

With Leica showing a bigger, heavier instrument, that changes. Although the SL won't throw cameras like the D4s or 1D X out of the market, it shows what is possible, and the next competitor from Sony (an A9?) might be much more difficult to handle.

For me, this is also a reason to wait and see. A Nikon full frame mirrorless with a sensor similar to the one in the D810, one that can AF with my AF-S lenses using an adapter, would clearly be an alternative to this camera from Leica. A lower price would help too

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The real key which not sure anyone talked about yetis the impact of mirrorless in the market. Having Leica join into the mix is actually a big boast to mirrorless. Even though some may struggle with this SL and with Sonys A7 series I think we could all say this is good for the photo market. It's up to Canon/Nikon next to decide if this is there direction they should take. I do give credit to Leica for putting out a good EVF that will go a long way for others to improve and find new and better decisions. Honestly we can sit and discuss the merits of both of these mirrorless systems but honestly there is a big attitude towards Sony and Leica. Leica tends to get the overpriced behind the times tech and Sony gets far worse just a crap system. Sad they both get dinged like this. But the way I see it is more jealously more than anything coming from the detractors. I look it as a Sony shooter now I'm shooting a piece of **** and I could care less. But truth be told go look in those fun threads for both systems and it tells a far different story. End of day folks all that counts is the final image.

 

[uhoh7]

"Sony owners, many of whom are terribly sensitive...."

Unlike Leica users, who are quite calm in the face of criticism of their cameras.

Nobody likes their baby slammed. LOL What I'm saying is that the Sony people have to face alot of snide remarks. I joined the RFF forum with my little Nex-5 shooting Leica glass in 2010. That was a cool welcome from some :scry:

Personally I separate my sweetie A7.mod from the big evil panda who made her shutter so loud, I have affection for the former and ire toward the priorities of the latter. :grin:

But there is no doubt if you choose your glass carefully any of the A7 series can make great images and the latest r2 is really impressive with native glass. But there is not a single native sony lens I would not give up for the M alternative. That's just me. I prefer manual focus and the FE lenses are not so good at that, except the batis, which are so much bigger than the Ms....bla bla.

Yes it's the final image. You can make babies without touching too :salute: