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Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
This looks to be a decent rumor as the camera has been registered as the Leica SL(601) and Leica has a major event scheduled for October 20th in Wetzler . The specifications look reasonable ...same 24MP sensor as the Q with maybe improved high ISO performance , SL style body with EVF ,new line of AF lenses ....larger than the M but lighter .

The big surprise was the speculation that the new body would have “IN BODY AF” ...as I understand it the sensor is moved to achieve focus . This would be a game changer for someone that loves the Leica R lenses as well as the manual focus gems from Zeiss . Do I understand this correctly that its possible to focus a manual focus lenses in this manner ?

I know Contax had this capability in one body ..but I have no experience in how well it worked or even if it worked with manual focus lenses.
 

Lars

Active member
Very interesting - out of my price/value range for sure but it's good to hear that Leica is finally stepping into the 21st century with some innovation rather than being a follower. I could see other manufacturers following the idea of in-body AF.
In-body AF should actually be technically easier to implement than in-lens AF (less mass to move, no concern over MF ring feel).
And if you use an MF lens focused at minimum range the AF can effectively work as a variable extension ring.
Body has to be deeper to accommodate near focus though - don't expect a thin body like the A7. But body + lens will be the same depth.
Limitation for long lenses - don't expect full-range AF or macro on your 500 mm lens. It will be more like set approximate MF, then let the body do the AF part.
As you all probably remember, 1:1 macro requires an extension equal to focal length. So in-body is great for wide angles and up to perhaps 100 mm focal length, after that is gets a bit limiting.
For smaller sensor size (and thus shorter focal lengths) it's an even better idea.
 
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segedi

Member
This might be a silly question, but why would they come out with AF lenses if the AF was in-body?
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
This might be a silly question, but why would they come out with AF lenses if the AF was in-body?
Agreed seems inconsistent with body based AF ...this is what I don t follow in the rumors . The lenses however don t indicate they are AF.
 

Lars

Active member
This might be a silly question, but why would they come out with AF lenses if the AF was in-body?
In-body AF allows for AF using legacy (M, R?) lenses, in-lens AF allows for full range AF. No contradiction if you think about it, quite clever actually, and rhymes with Leica philosophy - existing lenses is a tremendous asset.

Then again, it's just a rumor, right? :D
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
This looks to be a decent rumor as the camera has been registered as the Leica SL(601) and Leica has a major event scheduled for October 20th in Wetzler . The specifications look reasonable ...same 24MP sensor as the Q with maybe improved high ISO performance , SL style body with EVF ,new line of AF lenses ....larger than the M but lighter .

The big surprise was the speculation that the new body would have “IN BODY AF” ...as I understand it the sensor is moved to achieve focus . This would be a game changer for someone that loves the Leica R lenses as well as the manual focus gems from Zeiss . Do I understand this correctly that its possible to focus a manual focus lenses in this manner ?

I know Contax had this capability in one body ..but I have no experience in how well it worked or even if it worked with manual focus lenses.
The Contax AX put the whole film transport, mirror box and pentaprism on ceramic rails and moved it in and out with a powerful USM motor. It worked, but required an extra cm of body thickness and reached the market as film was dying. There is a description at Contax AX - photo.net. 1 cm of motion (away from the lens) lets you focus down to 0.7m (Leica's standard minimum) for lenses up to about 85 mm focal length. After that, manual rough focus is required. But to do AF down to 0.7 m with lenses 50 mm or less by moving the sensor requires a bit less than 0.4 cm of movement. Maybe that's OK in a body that has an R-like appearance.

Still, I guess it's unlikely. Even though the current magnetically-suspended image chip makes it much easier and faster to offer z-axis motion, the Rube Goldberg (Heath Robinson) nature of the system invites ridicule, and ridicule undercuts the "Das Wesentliche" message of Leica's current marketing. And Leica doesn't make money selling R lenses which are no longer manufactured. We'll have to wait for Oct 20, or perhaps Michael Hussman (MJH on the Leica Forum), a journalist who frequently writes for Leica, will straighten this out if someone decides that it is not a speculation that should be encouraged.

scott
 
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jonoslack

Active member
HI There
Moving the sensor back and forth by 1cm doesn't sound like it would be very fast (it certainly wasn't in the Contax AX).

I believe that this rumour came from LaVide Leica, together with the idea that the X-U typ 113 would be M like, but with an electronic rangefinder like the Konost system(Konost).

He keeps telling us what a tremendous track record he has with predictions, so maybe he's right here as well.

If so, we live in exciting times!
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Well I'm fascinated by the potential announcement of a new camera- capable of using existing M manual lenses - as well as a new line of autofocus lenses...pretty big news for Leica - strategically important move - Sony one body for all lenses has huge appeal to owners of legacy or other system lenses - it is a genuine lens horse - if we take extreme levels of pixel peeping out of the equation - and maybe concentrate on a print..I found my lenses - even wides - delivered useful prints...

Of curse I' rather use my Leica lenses on a Leica body - and wouldnt it be great if I could use my Nikon/Canon lenses

Maybe Leica has just a put a cap on Sony's pricing plans for the Ar3/4/5/6/7 etc..

anyway I'm really interested in what this camera is going to be...

I would pay megabucks for a digital XPan...that is the killer format just waiting to be rebirthed....( one can only dream)
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
HI There
Moving the sensor back and forth by 1cm doesn't sound like it would be very fast (it certainly wasn't in the Contax AX).

I believe that this rumour came from LaVide Leica, together with the idea that the X-U typ 113 would be M like, but with an electronic rangefinder like the Konost system(Konost).
The most recent rumor update has a really intriguing lens list and says "in-body AF." It's in Japanese, so reading it through Google translate adds to the mystery. I see that MJH has weighed in suggesting that it is possible that "LaVidaLeica hasn't got a clue." But moving a magnetically suspended sensor back and forth could be pretty fast, certainly when compared with what Contax had to do. And I think 4 mm motion would be enough. But it just isn't very "wesentlich."

Are we having fun now?

scott
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Maybe Leica has just a put a cap on Sony's pricing plans for the Ar3/4/5/6/7 etc..
My thoughts, exactly! :)

This could be the major fallout from this as the prices of the rumored Leica will be affordable for only a few.
 

D&A

Well-known member
I used the Contax AX quite extensively and although thr AF was slow compared to what was then state of the art in Af SLR's, it aquainted itself quite well and could virtually allow AF with almost any manual focus lens one could mount to the body. This meant not only native Contax SLR lenses but any brand lens via an adapter.

As mentioned, the mass required to move a sensor is quite a bit less than what ContX had to deal with and I suspect AF speed will be acceptable. The added benifit of allowing any mounted lens to focus closer than its normal minimum distance, cannot br overstated.

I think the major advancement of this system if true, would be not only in-body AF, but also a line of native AF lenses if one chooses that route. I suspect this is actually what the entire system is designed for but with the added benifit of allowing most any mounted lens to derive benifit from an in-camera based AF system if so desired.

I supose the new mount won't allow all native legacy R lenses to be mounted without an adapter or will it actually have a modified R mount with additional contacts? Something tells me this body is not really designed for M lens use but I'm sure some sort of adapter to mount M lenses will exist or be developed (3rd party).

Like the S system, I suspect the orice will prevent it from becoming a mainstream DSLR system that would compete against the likes of Nikon, Canon etc., but then again thats never been Leicas goal.

Dave (D&A)
 
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JohnBrew

Active member
I would pay megabucks for a digital XPan...that is the killer format just waiting to be rebirthed....( one can only dream)
Okay, NOW we're really on point. That is a dream I share with you, Peter.

Just received an email from Thorsten Overgaard and he seems pretty sure we will see this camera before year's end.

But then, I'd lay even money Jono has the goods behind that bewitching smile of his :D.
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
Okay, NOW we're really on point. That is a dream I share with you, Peter.

Just received an email from Thorsten Overgaard and he seems pretty sure we will see this camera before year's end.

But then, I'd lay even money Jono has the goods behind that bewitching smile of his :D.
I read somewhere that after Josef Koudelka had his MF wide camera trashed by our border police (he was photographing the Wall in israel), Leica made him a digital equivalent. I'd love to know what that is. It was supposed to be based on an S, so maybe it was just cut down to a wide strip. I'm not selling my XPan and I'm hanging onto a few rolls of FP-4.

scott
 

doug

Well-known member
I used the Contax AX quite extensively and although thr AF was slow compared to what was then state of the art in Af SLR's, it aquainted itself quite well and could virtually allow AF with almost any manual focus lens one could mount to the body. This meant not only native Contax SLR lenses but any brand lens via an adapter.

...

I suppose the new mount won't all native legacy R lenses to be mounted without an adapter or eill it actually have a modified R mount with additional contacts? Something tells me this body is not really designed for M lens use but I'm sure some sort of adapter to mount M lenses will exist or be developed (3rd party).
mjh on the l-camera-forum has shot down the notion of AF via a moving sensor. He often knows much more than he lets on in public forums. IMHO it's very unlikely that Leica would use the moving-sensor AF technology because altering the distance between the sensor and the lens throws out the window the need for all the precise calculations and manufacturing that a floating-element or zoom or internal-focus lens requires. Might as well just use a CaNikon lens :p

Like the S system, I suspect the orice will prevent it from becoming a mainstream DSLR system that would compete against the likes of Nikon, Canon etc., but then again thats never been Leicas goal.
The SL isn't expected to be a mainstream DSLR camera. Mirrorless is not a DSLR.
 

jonoslack

Active member
mjh on the l-camera-forum has shot down the notion of AF via a moving sensor. He often knows much more than he lets on in public forums.
HI Writes for LFI magazine these days, so he probably will know. . . . But he will have signed an NDA - so he might just be toying with us :)
 

Seascape

New member
mjh on the l-camera-forum has shot down the notion of AF via a moving sensor. He often knows much more than he lets on in public forums. IMHO it's very unlikely that Leica would use the moving-sensor AF technology because altering the distance between the sensor and the lens throws out the window the need for all the precise calculations and manufacturing that a floating-element or zoom or internal-focus lens requires. Might as well just use a CaNikon lens :p

I agree completely.
With today's high resolution sensors, optical alignment is crucial, a moving sensor or IS sensor makes no sense to me.
Other manufacturers seem to use these concepts to sell cameras, Leica understands the importance of precision alignment better than anyone.
I sure they are happy to leave these "magical" designs to manufacturers for whom marketing hype is more important than real world results.
 
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ptomsu

Workshop Member
Ok guys,

not knowing anything about this upcoming Leica, but I will lean myself now out of the window :D

Moving sensor for achieving AF is simply nonsense IMHO, because alignment would need to be so exact and control of movement for achieving AF even more crucial. I think Leica will be happy to launch this new system with some decent AF lenses and connectivity for maybe old R glass via an adapter. I even doubt that M glass is an option but maybe ....

Well, you can call me ..... or whatever you like if it still happens :cool:

Peter
 
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MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
The dark hints I've heard are "feels like an S, but smaller". And having played with an 007 for a few days, I think that would be a VERY good thing. The blurry pictures circulating look like no OVF. <shrug>

As far as in-body AF, is there any reason a focusing motor couldn't be built into the mount as a spinning ring? I'm thinking of taking the motor from a modern AF lens and just moving it back into the body, then coupling it to the mounted lens. Every lens uses the same motor. Maybe a stupid idea, but anyone here in mechanical engineering?

Or it works just like the Q or S (but with more robust gears).

Interesting times...

Matt
 

doug

Well-known member
As far as in-body AF, is there any reason a focusing motor couldn't be built into the mount as a spinning ring? I'm thinking of taking the motor from a modern AF lens and just moving it back into the body, then coupling it to the mounted lens. Every lens uses the same motor. Maybe a stupid idea, but anyone here in mechanical engineering?
Using a motor to move the mount would result in a compromise of inadequate precision for wide-angle lenses, insufficient focussing range for long lenses, an inability to take advantage of floating elements, zoom lenses that change focus when zoomed, and compromised mechanical strength which could be significant with larger lenses.
 
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