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Thread: Leica S for interiors or architecture

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    Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Just wondering if anyone is using the Leica S to make a living shooting interiors and architecture?

    I've tested the camera and found the profiles do not completely correct the complex distortion of the S lenses, especially at near to mid focus distances required for interiors. This was a simple test in my kitchen, note the bottom of the kitchen bench. Taken with the 24mm on a Leica SE. I love the camera but there's no way I could provide this to a client.

    Anyone else finding similar distortion?
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Did you try to adapt the distortion amount slider in LR ?
    During my limited time with the 24mm I've found it useful to apply more or less than 100% distortion depending on the focus distance (the relative distortion is far more pronounced in the corners at close focussing distance (-5) than at infinity (-2)
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    Did you try to adapt the distortion amount slider in LR ?
    During my limited time with the 24mm I've found it useful to apply more or less than 100% distortion depending on the focus distance (the relative distortion is far more pronounced in the corners at close focussing distance (-5) than at infinity (-2)
    I have tried this but the results are never perfect. I would have hoped that Leica provided complete profiles taking into account focus distance in the same way Hasselblad does for its Phocus software. I don't believe I should have to apply half measures when working with a $30,000 camera/lens combination. Much of my work involves 1 point perspectives and I don't have the time to tweak sliders. Hasselblad provide a 1-click solution so I don't see why Leica cant as well.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    The consequence of Leica using DNG and Lightroom against Hasselblad using its proprietary software system I guess.
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    The consequence of Leica using DNG and Lightroom against Hasselblad using its proprietary software system I guess.
    Unfortunately yes. But I would have thought Leica placed themselves above Hasselblad in terms of quality so I'm surprised they farm out their processing to a company which is also responsible for raw conversion from every other manufacturer. I get the impression that rather than do 1 thing properly, Leica are spreading themselves as thinly as possible producing numerous unnecessary new formats, none of which is done properly.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    i'm surprised your biggest issue isn't with the lack of a wide angle shift lens for the S, like a 24mm equivalent (about a 35mm)

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    I would suggest you try a tech camera system. For the same price or less (most likely less) you can get stellar optical performance at the loss of great convenience (Which the Leica provides). I am pretty sure you could correct that distortion no problem and generate a profile in short order but yes, it is extra work and Leica should work hard to make superb lens profiles. That said the Leica 24mm looks sharp edge to edge and the rendering looks very nice.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Unfortunately I have limited funds despite having unlimited desires. Tech camera would be good but requires a Phase One or Hasselblad digital back. About $30,000 here in Australia. Then comes the tech camera and then the medium format camera and lenses.

    A shift lens for the S would be amazing but I cant see Leica doing it. With my H3D I was able to shoot wide and correct the verticals in photoshop. Not the ideal solution but I managed to shoot interiors and architecture with it. I have an Sony A7RII with Canon TSE's which I'm using as an interim solution until I find something else.

    The distortion of the Leica S lenses make it impossible to shoot any interiors or architecture at the moment.

    Ideal world, Leica S with proper lens profiles for fast shooting and a Phase One back with Alpa for slower shooting. All up a $100,000 plus investment in Australia!

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Unfortunately I have limited funds despite having unlimited desires. Tech camera would be good but requires a Phase One or Hasselblad digital back. About $30,000 here in Australia. Then comes the tech camera and then the medium format camera and lenses.

    A shift lens for the S would be amazing but I cant see Leica doing it. With my H3D I was able to shoot wide and correct the verticals in photoshop. Not the ideal solution but I managed to shoot interiors and architecture with it. I have an Sony A7RII with Canon TSE's which I'm using as an interim solution until I find something else.

    The distortion of the Leica S lenses make it impossible to shoot any interiors or architecture at the moment.

    Ideal world, Leica S with proper lens profiles for fast shooting and a Phase One back with Alpa for slower shooting. All up a $100,000 plus investment in Australia!
    Have you tried this?? It may be a solution.

    http://wwwimages.adobe.com/content/d..._userguide.pdf

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Unfortunately I have limited funds despite having unlimited desires. Tech camera would be good but requires a Phase One or Hasselblad digital back. About $30,000 here in Australia. Then comes the tech camera and then the medium format camera and lenses.

    A shift lens for the S would be amazing but I cant see Leica doing it. With my H3D I was able to shoot wide and correct the verticals in photoshop. Not the ideal solution but I managed to shoot interiors and architecture with it. I have an Sony A7RII with Canon TSE's which I'm using as an interim solution until I find something else.

    The distortion of the Leica S lenses make it impossible to shoot any interiors or architecture at the moment.

    Ideal world, Leica S with proper lens profiles for fast shooting and a Phase One back with Alpa for slower shooting. All up a $100,000 plus investment in Australia!

    From what I have read/heard the A7RII with the Canon TS-E's are an awesome combination.

    You can really put together a phaseone and tech camera kit for about $10k-15k. The PhaseOne P40+ back is superb and you can combine it with a 35mm XL Digitar and an Arca Swiss RM3Di body and have a stellar setup. That lens has basically no distortion and is quite sharp edge to edge and beyond. With a back like the P40+ (or IQ140, Credo40) you can shift it a lot and still retain the quality.

    But as with all things photographic, equipment choices are a quite personal, YMMV.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    From what I have read/heard the A7RII with the Canon TS-E's are an awesome combination.
    There is a famous south FL landscape photographer who shoots almost exclusively B&W through a conventional view camera and prints VERY large, like to eight feet width. He is getting well up there in years. The combo you state above is what he i experimenting with. I have spoken with him at length about his decision and he is very happy with with the 17mm T&S.

    I studies his digital work very closely. Just let me say it is the photographer, not the..................

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    A shift lens for the S would be amazing but I cant see Leica doing it.
    I would like to see a native T&S solution, too. Sadly, I agree with the last portion of your statement.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by rsmphoto View Post
    Have you tried this?? It may be a solution.

    http://wwwimages.adobe.com/content/d..._userguide.pdf
    This solution is based on making a picture of a chart as a profile basis.
    Not sure how to perform that with a 19mm equivalent at anything other than close focus distance, and even then you have to make a quite lare print target !
    Am I missing something ?
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    From what I have read/heard the A7RII with the Canon TS-E's are an awesome combination.

    You can really put together a phaseone and tech camera kit for about $10k-15k. The PhaseOne P40+ back is superb and you can combine it with a 35mm XL Digitar and an Arca Swiss RM3Di body and have a stellar setup. That lens has basically no distortion and is quite sharp edge to edge and beyond. With a back like the P40+ (or IQ140, Credo40) you can shift it a lot and still retain the quality.

    But as with all things photographic, equipment choices are a quite personal, YMMV.
    I have worked with the P40+ and Schneider digital combo on a Cambo WRS.
    It was good fun, very crisp images from center to corners, rather lightweight and easy to set-up.
    There was too much color cast for my liking (although C1 handles that quite nicely).
    Using this system in combination with the Alpa distortion correction tool (that takes the position of the sensor in the lens image circle into account) brings lovely distortion free results.
    A nice set-up I would re-invest in if it was wide enough. More often than not I wanted a wider angle, unfortunately.
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Thanks guys. All interesting and possible solutions.

    Adobe Profiler
    In my experience has been a bit hit and miss, especially with wide angle lenses

    Cambo/Alpa & Digital Back
    I once compared a Canon TSE on 5DIII against a Cambo and Phase One. I shot a 4 frame stitch with the canon that had no magenta cast and had heaps of dynamic range whereas the Cambo/Phase required white calibration and didnt have the same dynamic range. It was a surprising win for the Canon.

    Canon TSE
    I've just upgraded from A7R to A7RII and for the some reason the quality of the 24TSE has dropped significantly! The 17TSE performs as it did on the A7R. I cant explain the drop in performance of the 24TSE but its now so poor that I have to shoot with the 17TSE and crop.

    I have to admit I got spoiled by my Hasselblad. Everything was automatic and worked as it should. IQ was not technically as high as Leica or a tech camera, but none of my clients ever complained and the results were indistinguishable when they went to press.

    Im keen to try the Alpa FPS, Phase One cmos, Canon 17 and 24 and Otus lenses.

    Leica Tilt Shift
    The Canon TSE are remarkable lenses. I wish however they stored metadata to allow for automatic lens corrections. Hasselblad HTS is also a brilliant solution but with a 1.5x factor on the new cmos back they are not nearly wide enough for architecture. Leica possess the necessary skill and resources to produce a no compromise solution but would only do so if it was economically viable. Maybe we need to start a petition to see just how many photographers want it.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    From what I have read/heard the A7RII with the Canon TS-E's are an awesome combination.

    You can really put together a phaseone and tech camera kit for about $10k-15k. The PhaseOne P40+ back is superb and you can combine it with a 35mm XL Digitar and an Arca Swiss RM3Di body and have a stellar setup. That lens has basically no distortion and is quite sharp edge to edge and beyond. With a back like the P40+ (or IQ140, Credo40) you can shift it a lot and still retain the quality.

    But as with all things photographic, equipment choices are a quite personal, YMMV.
    This.
    Also, Leaf backs are generally cheaper. The Credo 40 can definitely be bought within this budget.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Thanks guys. All interesting and possible solutions.

    Canon TSE
    I've just upgraded from A7R to A7RII and for the some reason the quality of the 24TSE has dropped significantly! The 17TSE performs as it did on the A7R. I cant explain the drop in performance of the 24TSE but its now so poor that I have to shoot with the 17TSE and crop.
    Interesting,
    I've spend some money in the S system and am not keen to invest another knee for a T/S wide solution with a digital back...
    So I tryied 2 options:
    * Use of the S 24mm (19mm eq.).
    This lens is a pure marvel but a bit too wide for my taste, I would have prefered a 21mm eq.
    And correcting the keystones in software was a bit primitive after having used the elegant Cambo WRS + Phase solution.
    The wider than needed focal offered more latitude for cropping after keystones correction however.
    The slight remaining distortion after LR correction was also bothering me, but didn't find it a show stopper.

    * Use of the Canon 24mm T/S.
    IQ Results were acceptable with the Sony A7r. Using this combo was great (tilt screen, zooming, peaking + T/S on the lens) and far more secure than guessing the focus zone and the frame after perspective correction with the S24mm.
    But software corrected images from the S were clearly better in the borders and corners than the Canon 24mm shots, no contest.
    I've upgraded my A7R for the A7rII and - as you said - found that the IQ was worse, quite disappointing.

    I'm a bit puzzled now, don't know how to get a 21~24mm T/S option.
    I'm even thinking about 'esoteric' options like using the Leica SL with an S to H adapter, an HTS without its optical part and a HC 24mm lens as a clever idea
    Getting a S24mm back is another option as I loved the sharpness of this lens and using it for making 2x1 pano.
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    Interesting,

    * Use of the S 24mm (19mm eq.).
    The slight remaining distortion after LR correction was also bothering me, but didn't find it a show stopper.

    * Use of the Canon 24mm T/S.
    I've upgraded my A7R for the A7rII and - as you said - found that the IQ was worse, quite disappointing.

    I'm a bit puzzled now, don't know how to get a 21~24mm T/S option.
    I'm even thinking about 'esoteric' options like using the Leica SL with an S to H adapter, an HTS without its optical part and a HC 24mm lens as a clever idea
    Getting a S24mm back is another option as I loved the sharpness of this lens and using it for making 2x1 pano.

    Really interesting to hear that you also had the same experience after upgrading to the A7RII. I'm at a loss to explain WHY the 24TSE performs worse than on the A7R. Agree that the S24mm is a stellar perform but as I shoot a great deal of my work as 1-point perspectives ANY residual distortion is a deal breaker.

    I've even tried the Phase XF with 28mm Phase/Schneider but surprisingly the edges have a great deal of smearing. In a side by side comparison my 5D with 24-105mm it outperformed the Phase/Schneider combination on the edges!

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    A7R with 24 TSE II, hand held, shifted, as an example of straight lines staying pretty straight
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    A7R with 24 TSE II, hand held, shifted, as an example of straight lines staying pretty straight
    I have the 17 and 24mm TSE's on the A7RII and agree they are an amazing combination especially for the price. It makes me wonder what Leica could do if it dedicated some resources to tilt/shift lenses.

    One of the major downsides I find with the A7R is that its slow to work and very difficult to nail focus as the lens distance markings are not calibrated for the metabones/Sony convention. Furthermore, the margin for focus errors seems much higher than when used on Canon bodies. I really need to shoot tethered to ensure I nail focus with this combination.

    I might just end up having to give up on Leica and Sony and use a 5DRS. While it will be hard to give up the dynamic range of the A7R, as a professional photographer I need equipment that is reliable and efficient. Time = money for me.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    I have the 17 and 24mm TSE's on the A7RII and agree they are an amazing combination especially for the price. It makes me wonder what Leica could do if it dedicated some resources to tilt/shift lenses.

    One of the major downsides I find with the A7R is that its slow to work and very difficult to nail focus as the lens distance markings are not calibrated for the metabones/Sony convention. Furthermore, the margin for focus errors seems much higher than when used on Canon bodies. I really need to shoot tethered to ensure I nail focus with this combination.

    I might just end up having to give up on Leica and Sony and use a 5DRS. While it will be hard to give up the dynamic range of the A7R, as a professional photographer I need equipment that is reliable and efficient. Time = money for me.
    I agree, time is money. And the trend in Architecture photography is generally less time/access at locations, request for MORE images and LESS money for the production of images so that translates to mostly available light images in a short amount of time (including post-production). Things like extra dynamic range (which at times negates the need to stack images), sensor clean (The Canon system is THE best, no need to spend time in post dust busting), good color (subjective), lens selection (designed for the camera, Canon wins here specially on the WIDE angle lenses essential for Architecture) and ease of post-production (good lens profiles help a LOT) factor a huge deal in system selection.

    When one factors all that in it is no surprise that a lot of professional photographers choose Canon even though the Sony/Nikon sensors have much better dynamic range and the Medium Format solutions offer better image quality potential.
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by BlinkingEye View Post
    I would like to see a native T&S solution, too. Sadly, I agree with the last portion of your statement.

    Well Leica did put an S mount on a 120 TS, http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...6_Elmar_S.html, so perhaps there is hope? And yes I wish they would make a wide TS S lens too as was promised back at introduction as a 30mm TS. I am also waiting for the promised 350mm S. Meanwhile Leica has delivered other lenses that were not promised.
    https://luminous-landscape.com/leica...impressions-2/

    I used to use the Canon TS long ago before they did the mark II. It was problematic for digital files in the corners, and by the time the mark II came out I had left Canon.

    The S24 works for me, and I have sold interior prints but they were "art" prints not for architects. Following my reading of this thread, I decided to do a close look at an interior shot which has many straight edges. There is a bit of a wave just at the bottom left of the edge of the tub in this shot. I thought it a lens problem, but it is in the marble!

    Jack
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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    I agree, time is money. And the trend in Architecture photography is generally less time/access at locations, request for MORE images and LESS money for the production of images so that translates to mostly available light images in a short amount of time (including post-production). Things like extra dynamic range (which at times negates the need to stack images), sensor clean (The Canon system is THE best, no need to spend time in post dust busting), good color (subjective), lens selection (designed for the camera, Canon wins here specially on the WIDE angle lenses essential for Architecture) and ease of post-production (good lens profiles help a LOT) factor a huge deal in system selection.

    When one factors all that in it is no surprise that a lot of professional photographers choose Canon even though the Sony/Nikon sensors have much better dynamic range and the Medium Format solutions offer better image quality potential.

    Am definitely coming to the same conclusion. More work for less money means even the relatively small amount of time taken to tweak sliders when there are many images to be processed all adds up to a significant amount of time, most of which we're not getting paid for.

    The Canon TSE lenses are remarkable time savers but when shifted still require resizing of the canvas before applying CA and defringing which takes time. In my experience Hasselblad still have the best solution. Their colour profile combined with 1 click corrections are a saviour for the time strapped professional. Rumour has it that Hasselblad are in trouble, due I believe on their focus on rebadging old Sony DSLRS/Mirrorless cameras for 2-3 times the price. I've used Phase One and find it less satisfactory than Hasselblad but Phase One have an incredible marketing machine which is helping it expand their product line. I hope Leica don't follow Hasselblad but instead continue to focus on what it was that established the company.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by JMacD View Post
    Well Leica did put an S mount on a 120 TS, http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...6_Elmar_S.html, so perhaps there is hope? And yes I wish they would make a wide TS S lens too as was promised back at introduction as a 30mm TS. I am also waiting for the promised 350mm S. Meanwhile Leica has delivered other lenses that were not promised.
    https://luminous-landscape.com/leica...impressions-2/

    I used to use the Canon TS long ago before they did the mark II. It was problematic for digital files in the corners, and by the time the mark II came out I had left Canon.

    The S24 works for me, and I have sold interior prints but they were "art" prints not for architects. Following my reading of this thread, I decided to do a close look at an interior shot which has many straight edges. There is a bit of a wave just at the bottom left of the edge of the tub in this shot. I thought it a lens problem, but it is in the marble!

    Jack

    Thanks for the example, thats very interesting. Can you confirm it was taken on the 24mm? Where did you process the image and is this the whole image without cropping? I've sent a raw copy of my file to Leica to see whether they think it's the lens, profile, Camera Raw but as yet no response.

    I've contacted DXO whose software does take into account distance but have been told they have no plans to support the Leica S.

    I'm desperate to spend money but have no acceptable solution! Never thought I'd say that!

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    The Canon TSE lenses are remarkable time savers but when shifted still require resizing of the canvas before applying CA and defringing which takes time.
    If you're using Capture One, you can specify an XY shift offset that affects CA & distortion correction. Even in LR, the auto CA correction does a pretty good job on shifted images.

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    Re: Leica S for interiors or architecture

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    If you're using Capture One, you can specify an XY shift offset that affects CA & distortion correction. Even in LR, the auto CA correction does a pretty good job on shifted images.
    I've never found the XY offset in Capture One to work as well as resizing of canvas in Photoshop.

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