Two different views on the Leica SL

[bradhusick]

Jono,

I think you nailed the value proposition for the Leica SL. If you add up the prices of a D4, M240, A7R2 and lenses, the SL with 24-90 lens starts to make economic sense as an alternative to that collection.

If you're after the best solution for each situation you specialize. The same holds true for many technologies.

Thanks,

Brad

 

[D&A]

Jono and Brad, you beat me too it. Just this morning after contemplating once again what was expressed by Ashwin and yourself Brad, I was thinking of the exact same phrase, "Jack of Trades" to describe to SL body.. It comes close to mastering a lot in Jono's list but for the ultimate proficiency and performance in many of these endeavors, other camera/systems can edge it (the SL) out. That says a lot about the intrinsic value of the SL as Brad pointed out.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Godfrey]

...
I also have a number of systems . . . . but increasingly I'm finding that when I dither about what to use, then I take the SL with the 24-90 and a couple of M lenses (usually the WATE and the 50 apo).

I decided to "get out of Dodge" for a few days and was dithering about what to take along. The SL was a given, finally chose the 15, the 50, and the 180 so I'd have the ability to be completely crazy in what I wanted to shoot.

G

 

[Vivek]

The big question is as per the criteria laid out by Ashwin, how many are out there who would buy it?

 

[uhoh7]

I think it's OK to admire cameras and not buy them The SL seems to be selling just fine.

I admire it very much, as I do the Leica S, M240, MM, and A7r2.

Yet I'm not tempted in the slightest by any of these cameras, as the M9 and A7.mod do everything I want really really well. Of course they are not perfect. Both have funny sounding shutters

At the moment I have only two sirens: 50 Lux APSH and 35 Lux FLE.

 

[jonoslack]

The big question is as per the criteria laid out by Ashwin, how many are out there who would buy it?

Well Vivek
At the moment it appears that Leica can sell all that they can make.

I reckon that if the camera really lives up to people's expectations, then they will sell more and more as the rest of the system becomes available. Especially if they improve the firmware effectively.

. . . . are you tempted?

 

[ashwinrao1]

Hi all, just coming across this thread now. Thanks for starting it. Thanks to all of you for the kind words. It's nice to see the discussion continue here. I do find that the SL is enjoyable even if just as a discussion piece.

Ultimately, I can state that the camera was first a "dubious purchase" for me. I was not sure I needed or wanted it. With extneded use over the past 1 month plus, I can say that it's a camera that comes nearly everywhere with me. Granted, I am still in the honeymoon period with the camera, but I find myself, like Jono, easily going to the SL when debating which camera to take out with me....

The system will be strengthened by a wider array of lenses and accessories. That being said, it's quite well implemented in its current incarnation, especially if you already possess some Leica M/R kit.

 

[Robert Campbell]

...

Jack of All Trades

That's what the SL is . . .

The Nikon D4 is better for sport
The Leica S2 or a Hasselblad is better for landscape
The M240 is better with M lenses
The Sony A7rii is better for resolution
The Sony A7sii is better for video
The Leica Q is better for street
etc.

But unlike any of these camera, the SL is pretty good at ALL of these things ...

Decades ago I was at a Leica School. We asked the instructor for whom Leicas – the R-system then – were for; professionals, amateurs, whom? We were told they were "for photographers", the party line at that time I expect; he refused to elucidate further.

Sounds as if the SL is something similar; it's for "photography".

Mind you, the problem with 'Jack of all Trades' is that it is a double-edged epithet, for it's followed by 'Master of None'.

We were also told that heavy cameras were better than light ones for hand-held use; the weight somehow damped any tendency to camera shake. Anatomically, this is incorrect; I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

 

[Vivek]

Well Vivek
At the moment it appears that Leica can sell all that they can make.

I reckon that if the camera really lives up to people's expectations, then they will sell more and more as the rest of the system becomes available. Especially if they improve the firmware effectively.

. . . . are you tempted?

Oh, I am tempted but I am the wrong person for this camera at the moment despite all the good things it has to offer.

 

[ptomsu]

First of all - many thanks for all these wonderful reviews and the thoughts and effort put into these!

While I really appreciate all the new stuff the SL brings, I am still on the fence if I want/need it. Especially now (read below). Sure this is a great camera and KUDOS to Leica what they have done in this model, but without a decent SL lens lineup it will not become the camera for me.

Especially since I am as happy as I can be with the D810, which so far has solved all tasks superbly I have thrown on it. And this ranges from event, location and portrait work to wildlife. Fast, unobtrusive, quiet and with results (foremost IQ but also AF accuracy and speed) I have never seen before and also not from another camera. Plus I have all the lenses available right now (2.8/70-200G VRII, 80-400G VRII, 1.8/85G, 1.8/35G, 24-120G). And WRT weight the Nikon system and a comparable SL system (if it will be once available) in fact is not so different.

For M lenses I meanwhile also have the opinion that a digital M would be the best solution - either M262 or the next M introduced later in 2016 ...

The SL is a wonderful camera, but currently I think it is not the right camera/system for me too

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

The SL is what it is. A team of people at Leica with a certain set of assets and skills have put together a solution to several long-standing problems -- moving beyond the R9/DMR, adding AF to the mix, supporting all the great lenses in the known universe by making the body very thin and putting a little bit of intelligence into the adapters... Native German-speakers sitting next to the Leica Kool-Ade supply have the good sense to say that it exemplifies "Das Wesentliche," and leave it at that. Native English-speakers, who tend to be more prolix, try to clarify things by pointing out at greater length what it can do, and pass the Kool-Ade to the rest of us. It's tasty. Try it.

scott

 

[Vivek]

The SL is what it is. A team of people at Leica with a certain set of assets and skills have put together a solution to several long-standing problems -- moving beyond the R9/DMR, adding AF to the mix, supporting all the great lenses in the known universe by making the body very thin and putting a little bit of intelligence into the adapters... Native German-speakers sitting next to the Leica Kool-Ade supply have the good sense to say that it exemplifies "Das Wesentliche," and leave it at that. Native English-speakers, who tend to be more prolix, try to clarify things by pointing out at greater length what it can do, and pass the Kool-Ade to the rest of us. It's tasty. Try it.

scott

Ade?! German = Good bye!

I disagree that it "exemplifies" Das Wesentliche (you already qualified who would call it like that though- so no harm! ).

 

[ptomsu]

The SL is what it is. A team of people at Leica with a certain set of assets and skills have put together a solution to several long-standing problems -- moving beyond the R9/DMR, adding AF to the mix, supporting all the great lenses in the known universe by making the body very thin and putting a little bit of intelligence into the adapters... Native German-speakers sitting next to the Leica Kool-Ade supply have the good sense to say that it exemplifies "Das Wesentliche," and leave it at that. Native English-speakers, who tend to be more prolix, try to clarify things by pointing out at greater length what it can do, and pass the Kool-Ade to the rest of us. It's tasty. Try it.

scott

Exactly, it is what it is! Which is good in most ways and a great achievement by Leica anyway.

So as a native German speaker I call it "Leica hat das Wesentliche erreicht" and leave it like that - nothing less, nothing more :thumbs:

 

[D&A]

The SL has obviously ticked a lot of good boxes and most can agree, quite an achievement and maybe even a landmark camera for Leica. Kudo's to them for developing a unique product, especially where Leica is concerned.

Whether its the right product for a given individual, only they can decide. It seems even though there are quite a few who will pprobably opt out of purchasing one, they have even given it serious thought. Again I feel it was an "automatic" for those already possesing R lenses. Its other groups of users that I think are somewhat on the fence, more or less and ultimate decision to purchase will widely vary.

Dave (D&A)

 

[JoshMerwin]

I had the chance to test the SL several weeks ago. It was really a joy to use. The lens is a little big for my taste, I would have rather had a constant F4 and have the lens be 10% smaller. I also think having IS via the sensor would have been preferable and allowed the lens to be smaller. But for me, I will wait until the SL to S adapter is available and test it again. I think it will be a great camera to have to use with the S and Hassy lenses on. I've gotten very tired of having different brand cameras and needing to have a full set of lenses for each. What they have done with this camera is really opened up an ecosystem where you can have one set of lenses and use them on all of your cameras. I'm really hoping the next T is similar in design, IQ and looks to this, just smaller. That would allow
Me to have my H4X/IQ140, S 006 and Leica SL/T and have one set of lenses. The EVF is simply incredible. I was cycling between the H4X, S 006 & SL during the test and I kept wanting to grab the SL because of the viewfinder. It was so much brighter and easy to see with than the other two, and those have always stood out compared to canon/Nikon/ any other viewfinders. I'm taking a long term look at the camera offerings and love where Leica is going with their cameras/technology. The SL isn't going to be for everyone, but for the photographers that Leica made this in mind for, it's a valuable tool.

 

[jonoslack]

Decades ago I was at a Leica School. We asked the instructor for whom Leicas – the R-system then – were for; professionals, amateurs, whom? We were told they were "for photographers", the party line at that time I expect; he refused to elucidate further.

Well, I think he was quite right, there is such a skill overlap between amateur and professional it makes any kind of statement of intent pretty arbitrary. I reckon Leica might have been better off not using it WRT the SL

Mind you, the problem with 'Jack of all Trades' is that it is a double-edged epithet, for it's followed by 'Master of None'.

Well, I was very well aware of the implication, but actually I think it's already a master in several respects (notably event, wedding)

We were also told that heavy cameras were better than light ones for hand-held use; the weight somehow damped any tendency to camera shake. Anatomically, this is incorrect; I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.

I'm certain that a heavier camera body damps the effect of the shutter, and I do believe that it reduces camera shake as more energy is required to move it (more mass=more inertia

 

[siddhaarta]

Quote: "But for me, I will wait until the SL to S adapter is available and test it again."

I just not (yet) see the point to use the SL with an S-Adapter and S-Lenses (ok, as an emergency back-up maybe). As the sensor has the same pixel-pitch and probably similar technology, the results of a respective crop down from 37 to 24 MP of a S007 shot would be nearly the same.

 

[thompsonkirk]

Many thanks for these highly competent reviews that keep my interest piqued, even though I'm not a potential buyer til more primes are available. For the time being I'm digesting information without an urge to buy what's currently offered. It's like hearing about the Leicaflex and thinking about jumping on board at an appropriate time. (Actually I never did – I stopped using Nikons or any other SLR and stayed with M2-3-4.)

The main thing I'm learning is that though the camera and lens seemed too bulked-up when I handled one, people seem to find them quite manageable in use.

Kirk

 

[lambert]

Always good to have contrarian views.

I have my own that are contrary to yours. However, I am 90% sure I'll not be buying a Leica SL (I'd never say never given that I DO have a lot of S glass).

I have never bought into the notion that a smaller camera is more stealthy than a bigger one. IMO, it has much more to do with "how" you shoot candid work verses "what" you use. The presence of the photographer is the constant … and people are bigger, more obvious, more predominate than what they have in their hand. The difference between a A7 and a Pro DSLR is nothing compared to how a person melds themselves into a situation. How you go about that, is what makes the difference.

I also believe that the difference between a rangefinder and a DSLR or Mirrorless camera is more about the photographer's shooting experience than the subject's experience. A rangefinder simply eliminates many distractions regarding what an image will look like, allowing the photographer to place more attention on what the image is about. IMO, it is easier to concentrate on content with a rangefinder than with any TTL camera. This doesn't mean it cannot be done with a DSLR, it is just fraught with more visual distractions, like the effect of focal length and DOF, which are nonexistent with a rangefinder.

What the SL brings to the party is a simple interface that is sorely lacking in most other competitive choices. IMO, Sony is the most egregious violator of simplicity and elegant workflow, and seems impervious to the concept of simplicity no matter how many whine about it. Years later, I still haven't warmed up to the Sonys for that reason (and a few others).

What I do not like about the SL are the image qualities I've seen so far. That is subject to change as the camera gets more use and more lenses come out for it … the S development was similar at first.

- Marc

Simplicity comes at a price. The A7rM2 may have more depth in it's menus but in doing so offers a far more capable shooting package for both stills and videos. The AF system in the SL, for example, is very simple. Here's one example: when shooting video, the A7rM2 allows you to set AF tracking sensitivity as well as AF drive speed. DP Review posted some recent videos on how superbly effective the A7rM2 AF is when tracking a subject moving towards/away from the camera. Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1_Pj92aT_U


The SL, by comparison, relies on a simple contrast detect AF system to guesstimate subject movement. Try the above test with an SL (I would be interested in seeing the result).

Now the vast complexity/configurability of the new Sony's may not matter for the majority of those that shoot an SL. I have not seen a single test showing a sequence of images shot at the highest frame rate where a fast moving subject is approaching the camera. Likewise, I have not seen a single video shot with an SL showing a subject moving towards the camera. Every review I've seen of the SL shows it being shot like an M or R, with more or less stationary subjects.

 

[JoshMerwin]

Quote: "But for me, I will wait until the SL to S adapter is available and test it again."

I just not (yet) see the point to use the SL with an S-Adapter and S-Lenses (ok, as an emergency back-up maybe). As the sensor has the same pixel-pitch and probably similar technology, the results of a respective crop down from 37 to 24 MP of a S007 shot would be nearly the same.

For me, I'd be keeping the ccd sensor IQ & S 006, so the SL would be very handy for times when I need high iso shots. (ps-my iPad just tried to autocorrect iso to iOS :banghead The brief video test looked very nice, but I will try to set up another test shoot in the next couple weeks and this time only use the SL. I mainly use the Panasonic gh4 for video and love it. And we know that Panasonic leant a helping hand in that regard. And since the SL can also use the Leica cine lenses and the 007 can't, it's even more appealing to me than the 007. If you have a 007 I could totally understand only wanting to use that. But, you could also use the SL as a second camera/backup and not have to buy a whole new set of lenses. You can also cherry pick the lenses you want from each product line. For example the SL zoom, the Leica S 100 f/2 , the M nocticron, the R...( I'm not familiar with the favorites from this line, but I remember reading that there are some.) My personal all time favorite lens is the Hassy 100 2.2, which should work with the s to h to s to SL adapter. I would use that on every camera I own, if it was possible. I don't know if I agree with the jack of all trades idea, but I do think it gives you the most flexibility to cater one camera to the lenses(a wide array to choose from) that you want to shoot with, once all the adapters are available of course. At this point, it's really a promising glimpse into the future for Leica and I'm looking forward to seeing where that road takes us.