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Thread: Two different views on the Leica SL

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    There are a few considerations regarding IBIS that occurred to me as I've experienced it … which can affect shooting styles one way or another. Please forgive the lengthy explanation in advance

    I've now worked with three successive Sony cameras featuring IBIS: The A900, A99 and more recently the A7R-II owned by a close photo pal. Prior to that I worked with both Canon and Nikon using select OIS lenses.

    I was a vocal proponent of IBIS because it stabilized all of my ZA lenses compared to just a few OIS solutions from CaNikon.

    However, in my experience, none of these stabilization solutions are instantaneous, which may or may not impact one's shooting approach depending on creative objectives.

    I really like the way Sony implemented IBIS in the A900 because it showed a small graph in the bottom right finder regarding the degree of stabilization being achieved. That viewing cue disappeared in the A99 and A7R-II and you had to rely on optical judgement in the viewfinder as to level of stabilization being implemented, which I find a bit more difficult.

    My acid test for speed of IBIS implementation was the ZA135/1.8, Sony 70-200/2.8G, and especially my Sony AF 500/8 Mirror: (at 500mm the image in the viewfinder jumps around like shooting in an earthquake, so it is the easiest to see how fast the IBIS steadies the image shake). 200mm on the zoom also makes it pretty apparent. In either focal length, IBIS eliminates the vibrating aspect, but not the framing which still can swim about a bit depending on how steady a hand you have, or how quickly you shoot once the image stabilizes.

    While IBIS implementation is reasonably quick, it introduced a delay that began affecting my personal "Decisive Moment" style. Of course, I could simply turn it off when not needed, but that is a PITA and just one more thing to remember to do while in the heat of shooting.

    Here's a question for those who shoot with the A7R-II … can a custom button be set to toggle IBIS on/off?

    Now I totally understand some folks wanting IBIS for their work. It is a God sent for hand-held or lesser supported longer lenses, Macro, or really slow shutter speeds in low light with stable subjects. All those are distant second considerations for me since I do not use long lenses very often and when I do it's on a tripod or RRS Monopod. Same for Macro which is almost always on a tripod. Since I mostly shoot people, slower shutter speed situations with IBIS or OIS doesn't stop subject movement … so I either jack up the ISO to get the shutter speed higher, or more likely use a slower shutter speed to "drag the shutter" while using the short duration of strobe lighting to stop the subject movement.

    In retrospect, I'm less of a candidate for IBIS than I thought I was … or put differently, it is valuable for maybe 10% of the images I shoot, while affecting the speed of capture of the remaining 90% to some agree or another.

    I'm sure I'm missing something simple here, and have no doubt will be corrected

    - Marc
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Here's a question for those who shoot with the A7R-II … can a custom button be set to toggle IBIS on/off? (Mark asked)

    Yes, you can assign Steady Shot to custom button you prefer

    Sergio
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    While IBIS implementation is reasonably quick, it introduced a delay that began affecting my personal "Decisive Moment" style. Of course, I could simply turn it off when not needed, but that is a PITA and just one more thing to remember to do while in the heat of shooting.
    Good point!

    It will not work for me either (hence I do not own any camera with SSS).

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Godfrey,

    you finally need the 1.0 Nocti - ideal for all light and all weather :-)

    Looking forward to come to San Jose again, not sure when this will happen! But at least then we could try out our lens arsenals :-))

    Enjoy and all the best

    Peter

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is the real advantage of IBIS stabilization.
    Another IBIS advantage is that it can stabilize translational and rotational movements, which OIS cannot do. OIS is best at pitch and yaw.
    Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post
    Another IBIS advantage is that it can stabilize translational and rotational movements, which OIS cannot do. OIS is best at pitch and yaw.
    Interesting that you mentiones this Doug. A number of years ago while shooting an event, I took a few "special effect" frames employing a rotational movement of the camera body at slow shutter speeds which simultaniously may and/or may not include zooming of the zoom lens too during such roataional movement exposures.

    In the heat of shooting I sometimes forget to turn off OIS but noticed it had little effect on the images. Then on one occasion I was testing out another system on a similar event and when taking such shots, noticed little of the effect I strived for.

    For the life of me I was stumped and couldn't figire it out until a few weeks later I did a test with both camera systems and low and behold, IBIS indeed had a pronounced effect on rotational movement. Next time I should have consulted Doug first! .

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    Seems that there are far more than 2 different views of the SL.

    I am starting to see the Sony v Leica deal again....it's a tried and true debate that has no reasonable end point....but does lead to many views/opinions/what-have-yous.

    Please play kindly in our shared sandbox.
    Good point. Everyone should go back to their corners although I do understand that people wanted to offer corrections they deemed weren't accurate on either side of the fence. I've learned that there will always be those that "hate" Sony or Leica no matter what they put out long ago and that's fine too. Choice is great as we all have different desires. Who knows... 3 or 4 years ago I would've been all over this camera. Today, I don't even own a M lens anymore.

    As mentioned shutter shock has less to do with EFCS and more to do with the shutter used. Many MF cameras experience it. The A7R did for many people and the same can be said for the Nikon D800. The solution to the A7R and the D800 in their refreshes was to add a EFCS and dampening the mechanical shutter further for the record. The A7 never had shutter issues from my firsthand experience and I rarely had them with my A7R to be honest... at least not to the point of it completely ruining an image.
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    Smile Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    My dealer lent me the SL with 24-90 and Sony A7Rii for a pair of days.
    I have 17 M/R lenses, and 1 Sony FE 55 1,8

    The SL went back, and I kept the Sony. (complete study of the manual required )

    The LESS relevant reasons were:
    Steady Shot, which is simply amazing: Apo Telyt R 180 can be easily used at 1/15 shutter speed
    Autofocus(fast and reliable with the FE 55) in low light and tracking features including EYE tracking (phase detect based autofocus)
    Dimensions and weight
    Possibility to SEMPLIFY use assigning all significative functions to a single press of dedicated button
    Orientable rear display (should be implemented in every live view camera)
    Price

    The ESSENTIAL reasons:
    the 42 Mp sensor is better from any point of view: resolution, dynamic range, high iso noise, etc.(see DPreview comparison)

    The much greater cropping capability means that every lens becomes a zoom. My poor man summilux 21 (the Voigtlander Ultron
    21 1,8) is also a 24 1,8 and a 28 1,8 before reaching the 24 Mp limitation, and, due to the fact that it outresolves the sensor in most
    of the sensor area, with increasingly good performances.

    Not considering the capability to autofocus with many Canon lenses- and Nikon too in near future)- all my m lenses (Voigt 15 III, Ultron 21,
    Summilux 35 preasph, summilux 50 preasph, summicron 50, elmarit 90, tele Elmar 135, and, to cite only one of the R, the summilux 80,
    all works perfectly with this sensor.

    The viewfinder of the SL is better, but not so much if one changes in tool box menω the display quality setting from standard to high.
    Magnification is similar, and with this change in setting it is many times perfectly possible to focus with no zooming or peaking.

    This is not to say that the SL is not a very desirable camera...

    (I apologize for posting this in the Leica forum, but considering that I use practically only Leica lenses, I feel a little less guilty

    Sergio
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    no Koolaid for Sergio
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    Here's a question for those who shoot with the A7R-II … can a custom button be set to toggle IBIS on/off? (Mark asked)

    Yes, you can assign Steady Shot to custom button you prefer

    Sergio

    Thanks. I also find it useful to set to another custom button the selection of the correct focal length needed for stabilization of lenses that don't transmit their focal length automatically to the camera.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I switched from KoolAid to red wine so now I might NEED IBIS.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I switched from KoolAid to red wine so now I might NEED IBIS.
    If its a bottle of $1.99 red wine from the local convienience store, maybe not. .

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 3rd January 2016 at 10:30.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Good point. Everyone should go back to their corners although I do understand that people wanted to offer corrections they deemed weren't accurate on either side of the fence. I've learned that there will always be those that "hate" Sony or Leica no matter what they put out long ago and that's fine too. Choice is great as we all have different desires. Who knows... 3 or 4 years ago I would've been all over this camera. Today, I don't even own a M lens anymore.

    As mentioned shutter shock has less to do with EFCS and more to do with the shutter used. Many MF cameras experience it. The A7R did for many people and the same can be said for the Nikon D800. The solution to the A7R and the D800 in their refreshes was to add a EFCS and dampening the mechanical shutter further for the record. The A7 never had shutter issues from my firsthand experience and I rarely had them with my A7R to be honest... at least not to the point of it completely ruining an image.
    It seems on this forum that whenever there is an interesting discussion of the Leica SL, the Sony A7 series cameras must be mentioned and everyone must defend their current favorite brand. That sucks, IMO.

    That said, the A7 has the same shutter as the A7r, but always had EFCS; it was turned on by default. Which meant that it was smoother but would ruin exposures at shutter times shorter than 1/1000 second (particularly noticeably with lenses 135mm and longer). When you turn off the EFCS to fix that problem, it has exactly the same shutter problems as the A7r: a clattery, noisy shutter that causes vibrations that can (will) ruin photos at various exposure times with certain focal lengths, etc. Obviously, you can work around these problems to some degree. I made many excellent photos with the A7 while I had it.

    But I chose to sell the A7 after I'd acquired the M-P because the M-P did a better job for me, with either M or R lenses. The SL does an even better job than the M-P when it comes to my R lenses, that's all; I don't use any M lenses on it, only its native 24-90 and the R lenses.

    My take on this whole kerfuffle is that if you really like M lenses, you should use an M. And if you really like R lenses, you should use an SL. And if you really like using M lenses on the SL, use the SL. And if the Sony or some other brand has other features that are an advantage to your photography, you should use whatever that other camera is to do your photography.

    I think I'll go take some photos with my Polaroid SX-70 now.

    G
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by sergio lovisolo View Post
    (I apologize for posting this in the Leica forum, but considering that I use practically only Leica lenses, I feel a little less guilty

    Sergio
    There is no need for that IMO. We have had numerous "reviews" of NEX' and A7 cams from Jono and even posts why he is selling them on tne Sony forum.

    Thanks for your excellent/sensible pros and cons!
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    It seems on this forum that whenever there is an interesting discussion of the Leica SL, the Sony A7 series cameras must be mentioned and everyone must defend their current favorite brand. That sucks, IMO.

    That said, the A7 has the same shutter as the A7r, but always had EFCS; it was turned on by default. Which meant that it was smoother but would ruin exposures at shutter times shorter than 1/1000 second (particularly noticeably with lenses 135mm and longer). When you turn off the EFCS to fix that problem, it has exactly the same shutter problems as the A7r: a clattery, noisy shutter that causes vibrations that can (will) ruin photos at various exposure times with certain focal lengths, etc. Obviously, you can work around these problems to some degree. I made many excellent photos with the A7 while I had it.

    But I chose to sell the A7 after I'd acquired the M-P because the M-P did a better job for me, with either M or R lenses. The SL does an even better job than the M-P when it comes to my R lenses, that's all; I don't use any M lenses on it, only its native 24-90 and the R lenses.

    My take on this whole kerfuffle is that if you really like M lenses, you should use an M. And if you really like R lenses, you should use an SL. And if you really like using M lenses on the SL, use the SL. And if the Sony or some other brand has other features that are an advantage to your photography, you should use whatever that other camera is to do your photography.

    I think I'll go take some photos with my Polaroid SX-70 now.

    G
    I'm not so sure that the A7 and A7R have the same exact shutters in them. They have different shutter sync speeds, different shutter reaction times, and even a different shutter sound. Trust me on the sound of the shutters, I've lived with both side by side for over 2 years. There's a distinct difference in sound between both even with EFCS off on the A7.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    I'm not so sure that the A7 and A7R have the same exact shutters in them. They have different shutter sync speeds, different shutter reaction times, and even a different shutter sound. Trust me on the sound of the shutters, I've lived with both side by side for over 2 years. There's a distinct difference in sound between both even with EFCS off on the A7.
    I'm not sure either; and I have used them side-by-side as well. Actually, I doubt they are identical because Sony can't seem to re-use any individual piece from one model to the next in their camera line... good or bad, each camera seems to have a completely different set of parts in it.

    Sad to say it, but they feel and sound equally clunky and nasty to me, regardless of whether they are exactly the same or not. And their problems are identical, from my experience using them, other than the fact that the one has EFCS and the other doesn't. The clunky, noisy shutter was one of the reasons I chucked the Sony A7.

    Both the M-P and the SL shutters' sound, feel, and responsiveness are much more to my liking.

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 3rd January 2016 at 17:46.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Okay - Okay - Sorry Chaps - I really think that with responses like this I've overstayed my welcome. I'm obviously handling things wrongly. . . and anyway, this seems to be turning into a Sony discussion, not a Leica one.

    If I'm coming across as some kind of a Leica 'shill' then I should keep my mouth shut. And so I will. I really don't want to cause any bad feeling, but it seems that I've become a kind of catalyst, which is really not what was intended.

    Toodle Pip
    I believe your SL experiences are very much welcomed in the SL thread. I don't think that it's turning into a Sony v. Leica thread but I do believe some have corrected what they believe to be erroneous information.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    in my opinion, in a thread ostensibly about pro and con views, it makes perfect sense to compare similar cameras of different makes to make a point.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    My opinion is that it is a very personal decision to like the SL or prefer something else.
    I am on vacation and have a little more time to shoot the SL and overall I do like it and get along fine with it.
    I really really like to hold that camera, I like the speed, I like that it is weatherproof, I like that viewfinder (sometimes I even forget that its an EVF... until I look through the S), that 24-90 is big but the IQ in terms of color (For me one big plus regarding Leica over Sony) and sharpness and bokeh in combination with the SL-sensor is very good. Surprisingly good for a zoomlens.
    There are small things which I experience day for day. For example shooting a exposure-row of 3 images. Blazingly fast.
    The exposure metering I am also very happy with.
    To let this post not be too positive...I sometimes wish for labeled buttons and a little more direct access without having to go into menues. I also find the video buttons not positioned so well.
    Some images from today to show how flexible the 24-90 is. (this was very harsh light and it is fog not flare)
    Attached Images Attached Images        
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    in my opinion, in a thread ostensibly about pro and con views, it makes perfect sense to compare similar cameras of different makes to make a point.
    Except that this thread is specifically supposed to be a thread about different perspectives on the same camera, not about how one camera compares to other cameras. I guess that means we disagree about how to have this discussion, above and beyond the discussion itself.

    G

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    well...i disagree on the thread intent and discussions like these have a life to their own, where one thing leads to another
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    G., IMO, it is inevitable that people will relate to a new camera by referencing what they already have experienced, or know about. After all, this new Leica isn't in very many GetDPI hands yet.

    Two of my favorite lenses of all time were the R35/1.4 and R80/1.4. If I still had those today, the SL would be at the top of my consideration list. They would be a perfect fit in terms of size/balance and deliver the color rendering I prefer over most anything else on the market (except my S kit). I'll be keeping my eye on this for when Leica delivers the S adapter. I suspect my relatively smaller S70 and S100/2 would be amazing on it for more spontaneous shooting.

    Enjoy your SL!

    - Marc
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    G., IMO, it is inevitable that people will relate to a new camera by referencing what they already have experienced, or know about.
    Also note the OP compared the SL with several existing cameras including CaNikon and Sony.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    G., IMO, it is inevitable that people will relate to a new camera by referencing what they already have experienced, or know about. After all, this new Leica isn't in very many GetDPI hands yet.

    Two of my favorite lenses of all time were the R35/1.4 and R80/1.4. If I still had those today, the SL would be at the top of my consideration list. They would be a perfect fit in terms of size/balance and deliver the color rendering I prefer over most anything else on the market (except my S kit). I'll be keeping my eye on this for when Leica delivers the S adapter. I suspect my relatively smaller S70 and S100/2 would be amazing on it for more spontaneous shooting.

    Enjoy your SL!

    - Marc
    Hi Mark,
    I also expect the 70 and 100 S lenses to be great portrait lenses on the SL, and they fit size wise.
    The 180/3.5 could also be interesting.
    Regarding the wider S-lenses, IMO they are too big for the SL if we look at focal length and speed, I would rather use the 24-90.

    About the discussion SL vs Sony, IMO-why not, even if things are repeated and repeated.
    The discussion for a product often includes also a look at the competitive products.
    To me it proves that in the end it comes down to personal requirements and taste.
    Many state to have tried both systems and then decided for the Sony for certain reasons.
    For my part after about 1 year with several A7 bodies (last one was the A7II) I didnt find anything totally wrong with the Sony, but I dont regret giving the whole kit back when I decided to get the SL.
    Using several systems from the same brand has a big advantage for me, that the logic of user interface of the menus and the color tweaking of the files are close. For example Auto_ISO ha sbecome a very important function for me and I like how Leica (and Nikon and Canon) have included this function (besides Leica should offer autoiso in the S007 in M mode, like they do in the M 240 and SL)
    Using Leica lenses also lets me feel that I dont have to worry about inconsistent optical lens quality/ sample variation.
    For me still the biggest argument against the SL is that there is just one native lens available at the moment, even though this is very flexible and I can work around with fast M-primes at the moment if the Zoom is to slow/dark.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I've managed to avoid investing any time in the Sony R's for the past 2-3 years, using Leica Ms and Olympus M-1/M-5.2's instead. I tend to push on with something that works and see what I can do. I heard enough about Fuji's strange mosaic replacement for the Bayer filter and Sony's usability issues that once I had gotten to the end of the Olympus menu list I was set for a while and could take pictures. I have accumulated enough very wide or fairly long full frame M/R lenses that the SL was hard to resist. But I can't help you all trash it against Sony for price or features -- it's paid for, and that's past.

    I picked up the R 80/1.4 during the Black Friday madness and it is indeed a wonderful lens, but so is the APO-90/2.0 that I had purchased fairly inexpensively a bit earlier. I see the SL as a migration from the limited use of live view that the M[240] offered. I think if Leica gets the S to SL adapter right, the issue of too few AF lenses will defuse, and if metabones or someone gets a Canon/Zeiss/Sony adapter out that supports AF, the SL owners will go nuts. The Leica bosses seemed to be saying in a recent interview that the last thing was possible, which suggests that the AF controls on the SL/T are pretty close to an industry standard and not precious Leica secrets. But that may be reading too much into a throwaway comment.

    scott

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    I think if Leica gets the S to SL adapter right, the issue of too few AF lenses will defuse, and if metabones or someone gets a Canon/Zeiss/Sony adapter out that supports AF, the SL owners will go nuts. The Leica bosses seemed to be saying in a recent interview that the last thing was possible, which suggests that the AF controls on the SL/T are pretty close to an industry standard and not precious Leica secrets. But that may be reading too much into a throwaway comment.

    scott
    I agree with that. The market for an SL adapter is so tiny that no one would be investing so much effort (to be dissed as a China made adapter later), time and money. Metabones is a Chinese company, btw.

    The best hope is that it is offered by Leica themselves in their boutique shops.

    As it stands, the FE mount is the universal mount and that is not going to be challenged. Also, as Sergio outlined, the cameras offer more positives than the shortcomings (often overblown by some) they may have.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Using Leica lenses also lets me feel that I dont have to worry about inconsistent optical lens quality/ sample variation.
    For me still the biggest argument against the SL is that there is just one native lens available at the moment, even though this is very flexible and I can work around with fast M-primes at the moment if the Zoom is to slow/dark.
    I have experienced sample variations with every brand I've owned (Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Canon, Minolta, Olympus, Zeiss and Leica). The 24-90 SL lens is also not without issue:

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201601...hift-90mm.html

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201601...hift-49mm.html
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I have experienced sample variations with every brand I've owned (Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Canon, Minolta, Olympus, Zeiss and Leica). The 24-90 SL lens is also not without issue:

    diglloyd: Leica SL: Evaluation of Focus Shift at 90mm for Leica 24-90mm f/2.8-4 Vario-Elmarit-SL

    diglloyd: Leica SL: Evaluation of Focus Shift at 49mm for Leica 24-90mm f/2.8-4 Vario-Elmarit-SL

    Thanks for the links. Here is a quote from Ming Thein Premiere and review: The 2015 Leica SL (Typ 601) and lenses ? Ming Thein | Photographer :

    "IS worked well (and it would be nice to have a 1/0.5x option for auto-ISO to take advantage of this, not just 1/1x and 1/2x) though it seemed somewhat less effective in portrait orientation than landscape. I wonder if this is evidence of shutter vibration."

    Huh, interesting, as it jogs some memories. Well, I gave up on my Sony A7r and Leica APO 280/4 lens in portrait orientation because of shutter shock. For my system I also observed shutter shock in landscape orientation, but it was less severe and somewhat manageable to a certain degree.

    For me it would be interesting to know if Ming Thein's finding above about the SL and 24-90 SL lens could be independetly confirmed or not. Now, I am even more curious about the shutter in the SL and how it works.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Well, thinking more about shutter shock or vibration, most folks would probably never notice it unless they shoot tele lenses like the Leica APO-R 280/4 or Vario-R 105-280/4.2 on a tripod in both the portrait and landscape orientation. I certainly never noticed shutter shock on the A7r for typical rangefinder focal lengths. It also would be good to separate any potential IS issues from potential shutter vibration issues. So, it would be a surprise IMHO if shutter vibration actually should rise its ugly head for the 24-90 mm focal length in an other than pixel peeping way.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I have experienced sample variations with every brand I've owned (Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Canon, Minolta, Olympus, Zeiss and Leica). The 24-90 SL lens is also not without issue:

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201601...hift-90mm.html

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201601...hift-49mm.html
    Wow - the SL a practical joke ? That's a strong cuppa ...
    Bart ...

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well, thinking more about shutter shock or vibration, most folks would probably never notice it unless they shoot tele lenses like the Leica APO 280/4 or Vario-R 105-280/4.2 on a tripod in both the portrait and landscape orientation. I certainly never noticed shutter shock on the A7r for typical rangefinder focal lengths. It also would be good to separate any potential IS issues from potential shutter vibration issues. So, it would be a surprise IMHO if shutter vibration actually should rise its ugly head for the 24-90 mm focal length in an other than pixel peeping way.
    G could shed some light on this: if I'm correct he has got an R250.
    Can't believe shutter shock to be an issue with the SL: I sincerely hope not.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    G could shed some light on this: if I'm correct he has got an R250.
    Can't believe shutter shock to be an issue with the SL: I sincerely hope not.
    I've used the Elmar-R 180/4, Elmarit-R 180/2.8, and Telyt-R 250, both with and without the 2x Extender R, both hand-held and on a sturdy tripod. I've seen no evidence of shutter shock at any exposure time I've used (from 2 seconds to 1/4000 sec). I did find my Manfrotto legs to be too light for the 250+2x+SL setup, and went to my sturdier Feisol legs (and a new Acratech GP head) to solve that issue.

    But I guess my hands-on experiences using both the Sony A7 and the Leica SL, with the same lenses, are of no particular interest to those who want to discuss specifications, features, and theoretical notions without the camera in hand. My apologies for commenting.

    I will join Jono and pass on this thread from now on.

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I guess my hands-on experiences using both the Sony A7 and the Leica SL, with the same lenses, are of no particular interest to those who want to discuss specifications, features, and theoretical notions. My apologies for commenting.

    I will join Jono and pass on this thread from now on.

    G

    Sorry to hear that G. I always read jono's and your contributions with great interest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    G could shed some light on this: if I'm correct he has got an R250.
    Can't believe shutter shock to be an issue with the SL: I sincerely hope not.
    Bart, I completely agree.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I've used the Elmar-R 180/4, Elmarit-R 180/2.8, and Telyt-R 250, both with and without the 2x Extender R, both hand-held and on a sturdy tripod. I've seen no evidence of shutter shock at any exposure time I've used (from 2 seconds to 1/4000 sec). I did find my Manfrotto legs to be too light for the 250+2x+SL setup, and went to my sturdier Feisol legs (and a new Acratech GP head) to solve that issue.

    But I guess my hands-on experiences using both the Sony A7 and the Leica SL, with the same lenses, are of no particular interest to those who want to discuss specifications, features, and theoretical notions without the camera in hand. My apologies for commenting.

    I will join Jono and pass on this thread from now on.

    G
    Godfrey,

    fully understand you (and Jono) and will also pass on this thread from now on, without mentioning why as I am a polite person

    Peter

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    I have experienced sample variations with every brand I've owned (Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Canon, Minolta, Olympus, Zeiss and Leica). The 24-90 SL lens is also not without issue:

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201601...hift-90mm.html

    http://diglloyd.com/blog/2016/201601...hift-49mm.html
    I am not surprised Digiloyd finds something wrong again, he allmost allways finds something. If it has something to do with using the equipment in real life is another question.

    I am not saying that I didnt have issues with Leica lenses as well - for example calibration for focus, but I never had to give back a lens. I had very different experience with some Pentax lenses for example. Also most Leica lenses seem to be fully usable wide open while some fast lenses from other brands one ofte better stops down 1 ot 2 stops. Of course there are great lenses from other brands out there as well. It just looks like there are no/not many bad lenses out from Leica.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Focus shift is a serious matter though.

    I would be curious to hear from users if they could observe similar behavior than DigLloyd has with his copy of the 24-90.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by siddhaarta View Post
    Focus shift is a serious matter though.

    I would be curious to hear from users if they could observe similar behavior than DigLloyd has with his copy of the 24-90.
    Lloyd Chambers is not alone: Ming Thein observed the same behaviour: Premiere and review: The 2015 Leica SL (Typ 601) and lenses.
    There must be something true. But is it serious, I wonder ?
    Bart ...

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Lloyd Chambers is not alone: Ming Thein observed the same behaviour: Premiere and review: The 2015 Leica SL (Typ 601) and lenses.
    There must be something true. But is it serious, I wonder ?
    I don't subscribe to Digilloyd, and Ming Thein did his report in a short time using lens and camera firmware 1.0 -- the camera shipped at 1.1 and is now at 1.2 with more to come, since the first reported issues are not cleared yet. Sean Reid had a 24-90 for over a month, and has published shots in the field, some with firmware 1.1, but not a studio resolution series, which would show focus shift when the lens is stopped down. Since he focus brackets at the maximum aperture and then selects the sharpest set to analyze, he won't see departures from parfocal behavior (unless he looks for it). Anyway, those were two rather early reports; have they been seen in later reviews?

    scott
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Lloyd Chambers is not alone: Ming Thein observed the same behaviour: Premiere and review: The 2015 Leica SL (Typ 601) and lenses.
    There must be something true. But is it serious, I wonder ?
    That is bad news. I assume Chambers bought his copy, so it is not pre-production, as Ming's. I also assume he is professional enough to use the latest firmware. Nevertheless, the problem should and could be solved by firmware, if Leica wants to ....

    As I am not a subscriber of Diglloyd, I cannot see how serious the focus shift is.

    He also speaks of AF problems. I wonder if the Leica SL has a AF fine tuning menu … seems not.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by siddhaarta View Post
    That is bad news. I assume Chambers bought his copy, so it is not pre-production, as Ming's.

    As I am not a subscriber of Diglloyd, I cannot see how serious the focus shift is.

    He also speaks of AF problems. I wonder if the Leica SL has a AF fine tuning menu … seems not.
    The Digiloyd review appeared at the same time as Ming Thein's review, so it is not clear what was the production level of his lens. Both were done before deliveries to regular customers were permitted. Also, AF tuning is done in DSLRs with phase detection sensors which are separate from the image chip. Contrast detection AF doesn't have that separation -- the lens is adjusted to maximize contrast in selected locations of the actual image -- so as far as I know there are no cameras offering AF tuning when they work this way.

    scott
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Loyd thinks the AF of the Leica S is flawed and I took thousands of images and even if the effect he describes can occur (I dont know if it does) the AF works just fine in real life.

    Regarding focus shift of the 24-90. I havent explored any problem but I also have not searched for a problem (and will not search).
    In my case I use the Zoom mostly either wide open (where focus shift shouldnt have any influence) or stepped down to maybe f5.6 or f8 (not so often) where I would guess DOF is so deep that focus shift also would not cause any problem.

    I can see that focus shift of a Noctilux 1.0 or a f1.4 lens is a problem, but a midrange zoom with f2.8-4.0?
    Any examples for situations where this shows up in real life?
    Or is it just a trick to win readers to subscribe to a pixelpeaper-pay-site?
    BUT: As I said, I havent looked for the issue, so it might be very well possible that it is really there.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    The Digiloyd review appeared at the same time as Ming Thein's review, so it is not clear what was the production level of his lens. Both were done before deliveries to regular customers were permitted. Also, AF tuning is done in DSLRs with phase detection sensors which are separate from the image chip. Contrast detection AF doesn't have that separation -- the lens is adjusted to maximize contrast in selected locations of the actual image -- so as far as I know there are no cameras offering AF tuning when they work this way.

    scott
    Thanks for the explication.

    But are you sure about the timing? Chambers analysis started yesterday and I remember that he did not get a test copy from Leica ...
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Loyd thinks the AF of the Leica S is flawed and I took thousands of images and even if the effect he describes can occur (I dont know if it does) the AF works just fine in real life.

    Regarding focus shift of the 24-90. I havent explored any problem but I also have not searched for a problem (and will not search).
    In my case I use the Zoom mostly either wide open (where focus shift shouldnt have any influence) or stepped down to maybe f5.6 or f8 (not so often) where I would guess DOF is so deep that focus shift also would not cause any problem.

    I can see that focus shift of a Noctilux 1.0 or a f1.4 lens is a problem, but a midrange zoom with f2.8-4.0?
    Any examples for situations where this shows up in real life?
    Or is it just a trick to win readers to subscribe to a pixelpeaper-pay-site?
    BUT: As I said, I havent looked for the issue, so it might be very well possible that it is really there.
    Sure, you are right, ones own "real world" is one thing and Chambers "world" and level of technical perfectionism is another thing.

    I subscribed his site for some time when I was about to buy some manual Zeiss and Leica lenses. Mostly his analysis was right but - for me - not so relevant in "real life". Nevertheless, it was very helpful to get to know better your lenses with their specific weaknesses and peculiarities.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Loyd thinks the AF of the Leica S is flawed and I took thousands of images and even if the effect he describes can occur (I dont know if it does) the AF works just fine in real life.

    Regarding focus shift of the 24-90. I havent explored any problem but I also have not searched for a problem (and will not search).
    In my case I use the Zoom mostly either wide open (where focus shift shouldnt have any influence) or stepped down to maybe f5.6 or f8 (not so often) where I would guess DOF is so deep that focus shift also would not cause any problem.

    I can see that focus shift of a Noctilux 1.0 or a f1.4 lens is a problem, but a midrange zoom with f2.8-4.0?
    Any examples for situations where this shows up in real life?
    Or is it just a trick to win readers to subscribe to a pixelpeaper-pay-site?
    BUT: As I said, I havent looked for the issue, so it might be very well possible that it is really there.
    Tom, I understand and that's why I asked if it was a serious issue, if an issue at all.
    However, I remember a recent focus shift issue with that other brand where focusing occured WO and whereupon the aperture closed to the chosen value and so revealed focus shift prone lenses.
    It was only after a firmware update that this issue was addressed.
    Could (have been) be true for the 24-90 as well.
    Bart ...
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Lloyd Chambers is not alone: Ming Thein observed the same behaviour: Premiere and review: The 2015 Leica SL (Typ 601) and lenses.
    There must be something true. But is it serious, I wonder ?
    How serious can it be with an EVF of this quality ... IOW hit AF then fine tune it manually if needed as you should be able to see what is on the sensor with regards to focus.

    Just like my previous S2-P ... focus with back button to get in the ballpark and correct if I thought there was any needed.

    Focus shift is an optical property - it behooves the photographer to understand it and work within its limits.

    The quality of in focus pictures coming from a bunch of older guys with the SL convinces me it is not a major issue ... as their game
    seems much better with this camera.

    Bob

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    If this focus issue is of interest to you, you might want to check out the discussion at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/...hift-diglloyd/

    Testing for yourself is easy enough to do. There's no need to rely on the opinions of "experts".

    I found no significant focus problems with my 24-90 zoom on the SL.

    dgktkr
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by dgktkr View Post
    If this focus issue is of interest to you, you might want to check out the discussion at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/...hift-diglloyd/

    Testing for yourself is easy enough to do. There's no need to rely on the opinions of "experts".

    I found no significant focus problems with my 24-90 zoom on the SL.

    dgktkr
    Problem is I have to rely on the opinions of "experts" or better still people here using both the SL and 24-90
    Now it happens those who qualify are all bailing out ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Problem is I have to rely on the opinions of "experts" or better still people here using both the SL and 24-90
    Now it happens those who qualify are all bailing out ...
    Exactly the problem with the way this thread has developed, though, truth to tell, its development doesn't seem unusual.
    Ed
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Wow - the SL a practical joke ? That's a strong cuppa ...
    Why? I was just pointing out that I have yet to experience a lens from any manufacturer that is immune to sample variation.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Lloyd Chambers can be pedantic but he is very astute in his analysis of lenses. It was Lloyd, for example, that uncovered the flare issue with the 50/2.0 APO M lens.


    "In April, I reported on a damaging flare issue with the Leica 50mm f/2 APO ASPH back in April. As I noted with conviction then: “The results are jaw-dropping, in a bad way”.

    I had a few private conversations between then and now. My initial examples were rejected by the experts as not unusual and within the bounds of normal behavior. That this was patently false was obvious, but the M-veil exerts such a strong cognitive committment reality warp that the possibility was not admittable as evidence to most all M users. But the actual facts were 100% accessible to anyone willing to look objectively, which some of my readers did.

    I then documented the issue with initial examples, as well as cross checking a variety of other M lenses, and documenting those too in my Guide to Leica.

    LeicaRumors.com now reports that Leica's CEO Alfred Schopf has acknowledged a flare issue with their flagship 50mm f/2 APO ASPH and that current owners should send their lens to Leica for REPAIR. Which is where mine is, so I hope it comes back with improved behavior.

    That's doesn't matter really, but I don’t review lenses and make flippant claims:

    In the face of (private) criticism from “experts” who dismissed my findings, I stood my ground and just showed the FACTS. Which is what I do in all my work."


    Link: diglloyd: Leica 50mm f/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH Update on the Flare Issue
    Last edited by lambert; 4th January 2016 at 15:42.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Problem is I have to rely on the opinions of "experts" or better still people here using both the SL and 24-90
    Now it happens those who qualify are all bailing out ...
    Bart,

    Good point, if you don't have an SL and a 24-90 in your possession, it's not so easy to do the test yourself.

    Could you elaborate on who is bailing and why?

    I read Ming's report, but, unfortunately, I didn't see details for the methods he used, just his conclusions. That makes it hard for people to try to reproduce his results.

    When I did focus tests on my camera and lens I didn't see a problem.

    dgktkr

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