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Thread: Two different views on the Leica SL

  1. #151
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by erudolph View Post
    Exactly the problem with the way this thread has developed, though, truth to tell, its development doesn't seem unusual.
    Spot on, Ed. The dream is always the same ...
    Bart ...

  2. #152
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    How serious can it be with an EVF of this quality ... IOW hit AF then fine tune it manually if needed as you should be able to see what is on the sensor with regards to focus.

    Just like my previous S2-P ... focus with back button to get in the ballpark and correct if I thought there was any needed.

    Focus shift is an optical property - it behooves the photographer to understand it and work within its limits.

    The quality of in focus pictures coming from a bunch of older guys with the SL convinces me it is not a major issue ... as their game
    seems much better with this camera.

    Bob
    You're probably right, Bob. Works fine for stationary objects no doubt.
    Still, I can't imagine this is what most people have in mind in regard to AF.

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Why? I was just pointing out that I have yet to experience a lens from any manufacturer that is immune to sample variation.
    Not doubting your experiences, Lambert. Just referring to Lloyd's bold statement in his 49mm test article that you posted.
    Bart ...

  4. #154
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by dgktkr View Post
    Bart,

    Good point, if you don't have an SL and a 24-90 in your possession, it's not so easy to do the test yourself.

    Could you elaborate on who is bailing and why?

    I read Ming's report, but, unfortunately, I didn't see details for the methods he used, just his conclusions. That makes it hard for people to try to reproduce his results.

    When I did focus tests on my camera and lens I didn't see a problem.

    dgktkr
    Why people are bailing out is because they feel offended by some, IMO unnecessary, harsh remarks or statements.
    One lacks stamina, the other follows suit and another is too polite: take your pick ...
    Bart ...

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by siddhaarta View Post
    That is bad news. I assume Chambers bought his copy, so it is not pre-production, as Ming's. I also assume he is professional enough to use the latest firmware. Nevertheless, the problem should and could be solved by firmware, if Leica wants to ....

    As I am not a subscriber of Diglloyd, I cannot see how serious the focus shift is.

    He also speaks of AF problems. I wonder if the Leica SL has a AF fine tuning menu … seems not.
    Ming Thein's review was very early and used pre-production everything. He cites Lloyd Chambers. When was Chambers' review published? Ming's citation could have been added later, but it is not marked as an update, so I assumed that the two were done at about the same time.

    scott

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Except that this thread is specifically supposed to be a thread about different perspectives on the same camera, not about how one camera compares to other cameras. I guess that means we disagree about how to have this discussion, above and beyond the discussion itself.

    G
    Perspectives are based on experiences, preferences, requirements. Logically all routed on understanding acquired and conclusions made by using cameras of whatever make. A comparison is inevitable.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    On sample variation -- If someone wants to claim to have discovered sample variation on the basis of one sample (possibly not even in their possession), I would encourage them to spend some time reading Roger Cicala on the lensrental test blog. He has a solid methodology for discussing it, and he only presents results when he has done tests on 10 samples from their stock. Varying results achieved by one or two people are just as likely to be experimenter variation.

    I think an important role of these discussions is to identify problems when they are genuine and substantiate them so that Leica will do something to fix them. That requires a more careful and dispassionate attitude than has been typical in this thread.

    scott
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Ming Thein's review was very early and used pre-production everything. He cites Lloyd Chambers. When was Chambers' review published? Ming's citation could have been added later, but it is not marked as an update, so I assumed that the two were done at about the same time.
    Lloyd is doing his tests now:

    diglloyd: Leica SL: Evaluation of Focus Shift at 90mm for Leica 24-90mm f/2.8-4 Vario-Elmarit-SL

    diglloyd: Leica SL: Evaluation of Focus Shift at 49mm for Leica 24-90mm f/2.8-4 Vario-Elmarit-SL

    EDIT: OK, sorry folks - I see now that Lloyd's posts were already linked up-thread.

    To the specific point, Lloyd tends to report on his tests on the fly - pretty much as he does them and catches up on the necessary image processing. His behind-the-paywall reviews are updated incrementally as he does new tests with the camera or lens in question. He's working with the SL now; Ming added his update about Lloyd's tests just the other day.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Why people are bailing out is because they feel offended by some, IMO unnecessary, harsh remarks or statements.
    One lacks stamina, the other follows suit and another is too polite: take your pick ...
    I'm not sure if I'm lacking stamina, or I'm too polite. Inconsistent at any rate!

    Focus Shift

    I contacted Ming and asked him how he had checked for it, and I've done lots of shots in the same way (f8, 90mm). Samples on request.

    I could not duplicate it. Focus was nailed on the chosen point in each case.
    There were some changes in firmware from 1.0 to 1.1, so there are 2 possibilities

    1. There is a sample variation
    2. It was fixed in firmware

    Test images were taken both vertically and horizontally

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Now what is Lloyd crowing about? Can someone who subscribes enlighten us?

    Lobbing grenades from behind a paywall is a bit unsporting.

    scott
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Now what is Lloyd crowing about? Can someone who subscribes enlighten us?

    Lobbing grenades from behind a paywall is a bit unsporting.

    scott
    Lloyds claims to have found two major faults:
    -Consistent AF error as large as 2m front focus at 10m distance with the 24-90 @90mm
    -Massive focus shift to the foreground at 49 and 90mm using MF (because the AF is unreliable as stated above)

    I have not done any test myself, but I am using the 24-90 on the SL since the beginning of December and I have not detected any focussing problem during my normal shooting.
    Ario
    www.arioarioldi.net
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    I'm not sure if I'm lacking stamina, or I'm too polite. Inconsistent at any rate!

    Focus Shift

    I contacted Ming and asked him how he had checked for it, and I've done lots of shots in the same way (f8, 90mm). Samples on request.

    I could not duplicate it. Focus was nailed on the chosen point in each case.
    There were some changes in firmware from 1.0 to 1.1, so there are 2 possibilities

    1. There is a sample variation
    2. It was fixed in firmware

    Test images were taken both vertically and horizontally
    Thank you Jono for being inconsistent Appreciated
    Bart ...
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Lloyds claims to have found two major faults:
    -Consistent AF error as large as 2m front focus at 10m distance with the 24-90 @90mm
    -Massive focus shift to the foreground at 49 and 90mm using MF (because the AF is unreliable as stated above)

    I have not done any test myself, but I am using the 24-90 on the SL since the beginning of December and I have not detected any focussing problem during my normal shooting.

    Thank you Ario. I find this amazing, whether Lloyd is correct or not.
    This effect should be easy to confirm - unless Lloyd has a bad copy or it's user error.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ario Arioldi View Post
    Lloyds claims to have found two major faults:
    -Consistent AF error as large as 2m front focus at 10m distance with the 24-90 @90mm
    -Massive focus shift to the foreground at 49 and 90mm using MF (because the AF is unreliable as stated above)

    I have not done any test myself, but I am using the 24-90 on the SL since the beginning of December and I have not detected any focussing problem during my normal shooting.
    I have to say that I have NOTHING of that issue. To be honest, I thought the 24-90 was going to be too HUGE for me to enjoy using initially. Since then, I have come to the conclusion that it appears to be the BEST zoom I have ever used. It basically covers the 3 primes I would use 90% of the time without having to change lenses and with the same IQ as a prime.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    Lloyd Chambers can be pedantic but he is very astute in his analysis of lenses. It was Lloyd, for example, that uncovered the flare issue with the 50/2.0 APO M lens.


    "In April, I reported on a damaging flare issue with the Leica 50mm f/2 APO ASPH back in April. As I noted with conviction then: “The results are jaw-dropping, in a bad way”.

    I had a few private conversations between then and now. My initial examples were rejected by the experts as not unusual and within the bounds of normal behavior. That this was patently false was obvious, but the M-veil exerts such a strong cognitive committment reality warp that the possibility was not admittable as evidence to most all M users. But the actual facts were 100% accessible to anyone willing to look objectively, which some of my readers did.

    I then documented the issue with initial examples, as well as cross checking a variety of other M lenses, and documenting those too in my Guide to Leica.

    LeicaRumors.com now reports that Leica's CEO Alfred Schopf has acknowledged a flare issue with their flagship 50mm f/2 APO ASPH and that current owners should send their lens to Leica for REPAIR. Which is where mine is, so I hope it comes back with improved behavior.

    That's doesn't matter really, but I don’t review lenses and make flippant claims:

    In the face of (private) criticism from “experts” who dismissed my findings, I stood my ground and just showed the FACTS. Which is what I do in all my work."


    Link: diglloyd: Leica 50mm f/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH Update on the Flare Issue
    I think the flare issue, who was experienced by many users, was a real issue.
    So the problem with Loyds findings is that it is hard to judge if it is just a minor issue or a big issue, and if it is seldom or a systematic problem. It is just the case the I have experienced at least three times lenses/system were Loyd stated big problems and I was just fine with the lenses in real world: Nikon 24TSE, Leica S AF and now the SL focus shift.

    On the other side I have read some of his reviews and also have sunscriped a couple of times, but the more I read such reviews based on analysing maybe 10 or 20 images with a lens/system (some users just static test images in boring light) the more I feel that I find review from people who use a camera for some time in various conditions (like Jonos report for example) are more useful for me. In the end the best thing is to use / check out the equipment yourself and rely on own findings, but thats not allways possible.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    You're probably right, Bob. Works fine for stationary objects no doubt.
    Still, I can't imagine this is what most people have in mind in regard to AF.

    Kind regards.
    Focus shift should be the same with static or dynamic subjects.

    If you are interested in dynamic AF an CAF - I have done some images of my kids with snow sports. Not all images where spot on but in allmost each series of 3-4 images there were some in focus.
    For me its the first contrast AF I have used which on can use for such things. The results with my 5dIII which I had 2 years ago were not really better, and the 5dIII shares the AF-system of the 1dx.
    Overall I have a very good hit rate with the AF of the SL and with hit I mean nailing focus.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thank you Ario. I find this amazing, whether Lloyd is correct or not.
    This effect should be easy to confirm - unless Lloyd has a bad copy or it's user error.
    Hi There Karl-Heinz
    It's very weird . . I really tried hard to duplicate the problem - and I'll do more work when I have some time - but the idea of 2m front focus at 10m is completely bizarre - I've taken thousands of photos with the combination and never been disappointed with anything except the size! Apart from Ming Thein I've not seem anyone else complaining about it either.

    Best

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There Karl-Heinz
    It's very weird . . I really tried hard to duplicate the problem - and I'll do more work when I have some time - but the idea of 2m front focus at 10m is completely bizarre - I've taken thousands of photos with the combination and never been disappointed with anything except the size! Apart from Ming Thein I've not seem anyone else complaining about it either.

    Best
    Thanks jono. I agree, bizarre is the appropriate term for this! Lloyd should have his gear checked by Leica.
    BTW, based on your experience I got the 35-70/4. I like that lens a lot and use it more than my 28-90/2.8-4.5.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thank you Ario. I find this amazing, whether Lloyd is correct or not.
    This effect should be easy to confirm - unless Lloyd has a bad copy or it's user error.
    I remember when Lloyd complained about the Q and then found he had made beginner mistakes. He is no beginner, but made the mistake and put it all over his site prematurely.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks jono. I agree, bizarre is the appropriate term for this! Lloyd should have his gear checked by Leica.
    BTW, based on your experience I got the 35-70/4. I like that lens a lot and use it more than my 28-90/2.8-4.5.
    Hi There K-H
    I'm glad you're enjoying it. I guess it isn't quite as good as the 28-90, but it's much lighter!
    It's a great lens isn't it - small, perfectly formed and very useful. I love mine.
    All the best

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi There K-H
    I'm glad you're enjoying it. I guess it isn't quite as good as the 28-90, but it's much lighter!
    It's a great lens isn't it - small, perfectly formed and very useful. I love mine.
    All the best
    Thanks. I agree jono. It makes very sharp images, sharper than my 28-90.
    May be it's time for a CLA.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I remember when Lloyd complained about the Q and then found he had made beginner mistakes. He is no beginner, but made the mistake and put it all over his site prematurely.
    Digilloyd has what I regard as a fairly aggressive commercial tactic: He cries wolf over early observations on his public site, but often nuances when he checks further, but then behind the paywall. He is not without points and has found faults, but he is too trigger-happy. I don't like his tactics and don't subscribe anymore.
    - ErlingMM
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by erlingmm View Post
    Digilloyd has what I regard as a fairly aggressive commercial tactic: He cries wolf over early observations on his public site, but often nuances when he checks further, but then behind the paywall. He is not without points and has found faults, but he is too trigger-happy. I don't like his tactics and don't subscribe anymore.
    Ever since he was invited to Germany by Zeiss he is even more strongly in their camp. Don't get me wrong I like and use Zeiss lenses, but now they can apparently do no wrong with Digilloyd.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Ever since he was invited to Germany by Zeiss he is even more strongly in their camp. Don't get me wrong I like and use Zeiss lenses, but now they can apparently do no wrong with Digilloyd.
    The other invitee was MT.

    PS: I wonder why Huff isn't favored over the other 2? He did choose the SL as his best of 2015!
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    The other invitee was MT.

    PS: I wonder why Huff isn't favored over the other 2? He did choose the SL as his best of 2015!
    Politics?

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I haven't noticed any problems with the zoom.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Politics?
    My thought is that he plays very subjective emotive type of reviews without much objective comparison.

    And much of it is not to the level of MT or Lloyd ... perhaps Zeiss reserved their imprimatur for the two invitees
    to avoid association with Huff's approach to equipment.

    Speculation all.

    Bob
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    AFAIK, he has always been very consistent with his choices and preferences and is a Leica fan (and buys and promotes more Leica gear than many online).

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I know Steve Huff. He's genuine and honest. His style is very enthusiastic and positive and that shows in his writing. Sometimes he seems a little too positive about the latest gear, but if you read him carefully, he does talk about the negatives. It's just that overall he's an optimist and the negatives are too easy to skip over.

    I often don't agree with him, but he's always civil, fair and friendly - like most of the folks here on GetDPI. He doesn't tolerate personal attacks, and I like that about his site.

    Back to the original topic, he's much more enthusiastic about the SL than I can get, but I can see why this "jack of many trades" can appeal to many. In the long run if cameras like the SL keep Leica in business and they keep innovating then I am pleased.
    Brad Husick
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    AFAIK, he has always been very consistent with his choices and preferences and is a Leica fan (and buys and promotes more Leica gear than many online).
    Hi Vivek
    I also like Steve, and I reckon he's really honest as well (and capable of changing his mind too), added to which his reviews are always entertaining to read.

    Just this guy you know
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Companies like Leica , have a relatively small core group as their fan and user base and although I believe they strive to retain this group as future purchasers and users of their gear, they do want to broaden that base. Its the only way to stay in business and grow.

    Hence products like the SL which retain elememts of their current and previous systems, also introduces new technology and at the same time allows a wider use of optics. As Brad suggests, its a win win for all if it succeeds as it not only brings in the much needed income for growth and development of new products but allows continued production of the core group of products that people most associate with Leica. They might loose a few customers but gain the potential of adding new users at the same time

    Dave (D&A)

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    diglloyd: Leica SL: Focus Point Bug

    So, it appears for different magnifications the focus point is different, confirmed by Leica, according to Lloyd.
    The camera isn't focusing at the intended point but slightly below it.
    Lloyd seems to have his merits. Leica should use him as a consultant before they release a new camera!
    Bizarre seems to be Leica's inability to pay attention to such detail.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 8th January 2016 at 20:04.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    diglloyd: Leica SL: Focus Point Bug

    So, it appears for different magnifications the focus point is different, confirmed by Leica, according to Lloyd.
    The camera isn't focusing at the intended point but slightly below it.
    Lloyd seems to have his merits. Leica should use him as a consultant before they release a new camera!
    Bizarre seems to be Leica's inability to pay attention to such detail.

    As I mentioned in my very first comment. I dislike the SL for different reasons then Brad. And I think Leica will eventually iron out the system.. And once more lenses are available, I think I can be happy with it. Or at least make use of it.

    I find all sorts of bugs with Leica's cameras as I'm generally an early adopter.. I always email them. They never do anything about it.
    Eventually they get around to all of it, they figure it out after about a year or two.


    Ponder this.. Leica touts this as being a AF masterpiece. But then releases a f/2.8 - f/4 lens (slow) which causes the AF to struggle in low light. IF they had released a f/1.4 lens, the AF would theoretically be great in low light. And it would have seemed like Leica actually got something right. If it was truly a "no compromise" system, they would have realised that making the zoom slower meant AF issues. And would have either limited the range, or just made it bigger in order to make the lens faster (f/2.8 at least).. And at this point, I don't think people would have really noticed it if it was bigger.

    It's not an MF lens BTW. I don't even know why they put two rings on it. Has anyone tried to MF the vario-SL? Terrible. So when the AF fails in low light... You can't even MF. And if the lens itself fails, then you're totally screwed, it'll just be a "something heavier than a brick" brick. You'd have to switch over to M glass. And if I'm going to do that, I have my RF which I can focus faster and like the colors from a lot better.

    Speaking of the colors, the out of camera colors are decent at best. With really bad skin tones in certain light. Very weird blown out looking JPG files. And the RAW files are identical to the A7II with little to no processing (assuming both cameras have the same lens attached). Nothing unique or Leica-esq about the colors out of this sensor.

    Tried the SF-40 flash. Wouldn't buy it. Might as well spend less then half the money and get the I40 from nissan in m4/3 mount. And just use it on A or M mode. TTL is terrible on the SL. None of the flashes work with it (24D, sf26, sf40, sf58). I've tried them all.. It's TTL system is the poorest of any camera I've owned. I'm no longer holding out hope for the SF-64, it's not going to be good without a serious SL body firmware update.

    But to defend my earlier comment. I think the SL is a good step in the right direction for Leica.. They did a good thing. They just didn't release a complete enough system. Nor did they think a lot of things through when they brought the camera to market. I think by the time the necessary things come (S-adaper, R-adapter, native AF lenses) the camera will be old news, and or people who have had it 6m-1y will be frustrated with it, and will be looking to unload it to go back to the M.


    So why not just buy an A7II if you don't need the ergonomics and the simple menus? Would save a LOT of money.
    THE ONLY SAVING GRACE and the reason I haven't sold it, is the fact that it has a good UI and good ergonomics, feels nice in my hand. And I'm holding out hope that the native 50mm Summilux-L will BLOW everything out of the water. If it doesn't.. The camera's gonna be sold to the highest bidder. And I'll just stick with my M and S-systems.
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  34. #184
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    So, it appears for different magnifications the focus point is different, confirmed by Leica, according to Lloyd.
    It also appears that Lloyd's lens tests are done with autofocus, which makes them autofocus tests. I'm not sure how many people shoot tabletop with autofocus, but he's got his audience, so there must be a few.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard View Post
    It also appears that Lloyd's lens tests are done with autofocus, which makes them autofocus tests. I'm not sure how many people shoot tabletop with autofocus, but he's got his audience, so there must be a few.
    That is incorrect. No need to obfuscate the issue.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    It would be interesting if somebody on this forum could try the resolution chart experiment as well. It seems a bit too far off for anybody not having noticed it yet...

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    But to defend my earlier comment. I think the SL is a good step in the right direction for Leica.. They did a good thing. They just didn't release a complete enough system. Nor did they think a lot of things through when they brought the camera to market. I think by the time the necessary things come (S-adaper, R-adapter, native AF lenses) the camera will be old news, and or people who have had it 6m-1y will be frustrated with it, and will be looking to unload it to go back to the M.
    Rushing incomplete systems to the market has unfortunately become the trend. Fuji, Sony, Leica... they all do it.

    It probably takes about 2-3 years for a system to be kind of complete. The Leica SL will not be an exception to that rule...

    I am sticking to my earlier stated opinion, that 50mm better be damned good...!!
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  38. #188
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    It would be interesting if somebody on this forum could try the resolution chart experiment as well. It seems a bit too far off for anybody not having noticed it yet...
    Since I'm not going to pay for Lloyd's detailed investigation, it would take some work to reproduce the effect. It sounds as if he shot a test chart with something distracting close to the chart but at a different distance. I'm curious, but I think further tests should wait for the next firmware release. I'm sure he has Leica's attention by now, and although many of us suspect this is a pretty obscure problem, Lloyd is visible enough to get it attended to.

    Compare this -- AF inaccuracy complicates tabletop photography -- with the defective 8-bit video codec that Leica fixed within a week after first shipments were out That WAS a problem, and not something Leica understood customers would do. Now they understand it. Also that issue was raised in forums with examples, not teased on a pay site, so it was pretty clear.

    scott
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    K-H, i disagree with you. No good will come out of it, imo.

    If any of the Leica "consultants" had spotted the exploding cover glass of Leica M sensors they would have earned some credibility.
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  40. #190
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Vivek, you have to be more specific what you mean in order for me to understand. Thanks.
    With best regards, K-H.

  41. #191
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is incorrect. No need to obfuscate the issue.
    That's how I understand it from reading his blog. It's an AF issue that appears at base magnification, but not when the display is zoomed-in on the image. Specifically, the focus crosshair is not displayed in the correct location.
    Things may be explained differently on his pay site, but I would not know about that.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    So why not just buy an A7II if you don't need the ergonomics and the simple menus? Would save a LOT of money.
    The way I make the a7II responsive enough for my needs is to enable electronic first (shutter) curtain, which produces uneven exposure at the faster shutter speeds I often use. @#%!

    THE ONLY SAVING GRACE and the reason I haven't sold it, is the fact that it has a good UI and good ergonomics, feels nice in my hand.
    Living somewhat farther north of you and often visiting the Sierra Nevada mountains I suspect I use gloves more than you do. The a7II's several tiny, closely-spaced buttons & such are far too easily fat-fingered even without gloves. @#%!

    And I'm holding out hope that the native 50mm Summilux-L will BLOW everything out of the water. If it doesn't.. The camera's gonna be sold to the highest bidder.
    I'll be the first bidder.

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by doug View Post



    I'll be the first bidder.
    So, it is a price issue?

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    So, it is a price issue?
    It's a cash supply issue. Price is not as important to me as productivity.
    Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Hope that changes for the better, Doug.

    In the meantime, cursing or not, I still continue to enjoy your captures with your A7II.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisV View Post
    Rushing incomplete systems to the market has unfortunately become the trend. Fuji, Sony, Leica... they all do it.

    It probably takes about 2-3 years for a system to be kind of complete. The Leica SL will not be an exception to that rule...
    After a certain point, products don't mature without customers. In IBM, we used to say that an operating system takes seven years to become solid and reliable, and that has been found true about a dozen times. So I look forward to seeing what's new, and am happy to help find out what needs fine-tuning. None of the problems reported to date are keeping me from enjoying the SL, and I have quite a few suggestions for the fine tuning.

    scott
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    That is incorrect. No need to obfuscate the issue.
    Leica is always perfect and Lloyd is always wrong. The pundits at L-forum dismissed his earlier reports on this issue as crap and are now blaming him for not using the right terminology. The point is that there are "Leica Consultants" as you said and then there are a few (maybe 2 globally) who actually are capable of designing and executing rigorous tests to prove their point. Not withstanding his premature conclusions about the Q, Lloyd knows how to test this stuff and sometimes it is hard for brand X fans to see the light.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    After a certain point, products don't mature without customers. In IBM, we used to say that an operating system takes seven years to become solid and reliable, and that has been found true about a dozen times. So I look forward to seeing what's new, and am happy to help find out what needs fine-tuning. None of the problems reported to date are keeping me from enjoying the SL, and I have quite a few suggestions for the fine tuning.

    scott
    Agree and this is why we have products with several months if not years in "beta" mode. At this stratospheric price point, are the users expected to get 100% or not? Or, should they pay 100% and get a beta product? And why does it take only one guy like Lloyd to point out these issues and Leica's own QC department cannot figure this out during testing?

    In rolling out a certain custom enterprise software to thousands of users , I noticed that there was always a fixed set of key users (~ 10 out of 3,000) who always found issues in the first few days of going live that our large QA team would miss during test cycles. and no one complained during acceptance testing either. These are scenarios that one can only come up with years of experience. So we identified these PIA expert users and give them early access even before the QA starts. The defect rate has dramatically gone down - not 0%, but significantly lower. Leica can hire Lloyd and Ming to improve the final product. The cost would be much less than after the fact fixes.
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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    Agree and this is why we have products with several months if not years in "beta" mode. At this stratospheric price point, are the users expected to get 100% or not? Or, should they pay 100% and get a beta product? And why does it take only one guy like Lloyd to point out these issues and Leica's own QC department cannot figure this out during testing?

    In rolling out a certain custom enterprise software to thousands of users , I noticed that there was always a fixed set of key users (~ 10 out of 3,000) who always found issues in the first few days of going live that our large QA team would miss during test cycles. and no one complained during acceptance testing either. These are scenarios that one can only come up with years of experience. So we identified these PIA expert users and give them early access even before the QA starts. The defect rate has dramatically gone down - not 0%, but significantly lower. Leica can hire Lloyd and Ming to improve the final product. The cost would be much less than after the fact fixes.
    Engineers often aren't operators. Simple as that in many cases.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

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    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    Engineers often aren't operators. Simple as that in many cases.
    It is not that simple. Even amongst the operators, there are some that are "super-operators". The key is to identify these super-users and engage them early on.
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