Site Sponsors
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 201 to 250 of 300

Thread: Two different views on the Leica SL

  1. #201
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    It is not that simple. Even amongst the operators, there are some that are "super-operators". The key is to identify these super-users and engage them early on.
    There are differences between operators and users.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #202
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    353
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There are differences between operators and users.
    Point taken. For me it is the "users".
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #203
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There are differences between operators and users.
    Yup, Leica could get help from both types before release of new gear! The earlier the better!
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  4. #204
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    353
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Thanks jono. I agree, bizarre is the appropriate term for this! Lloyd should have his gear checked by Leica.
    BTW, based on your experience I got the 35-70/4. I like that lens a lot and use it more than my 28-90/2.8-4.5.
    Coincidentally, I had the 35-70 F4 and recently snagged the 28-90/2.8-4.5. Now I have to decide which one to keep!

  5. #205
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    I know Steve Huff. He's genuine and honest. His style is very enthusiastic and positive and that shows in his writing. Sometimes he seems a little too positive about the latest gear, but if you read him carefully, he does talk about the negatives. It's just that overall he's an optimist and the negatives are too easy to skip over.

    I often don't agree with him, but he's always civil, fair and friendly - like most of the folks here on GetDPI. He doesn't tolerate personal attacks, and I like that about his site.
    At the risk of derailing this thread, I have to disagree with the bolded (by me) part of what you said here. I rarely read Steve's site and don't recall having commented there in the past other than to compliment a post here and there by him or a guest writer.

    However, I recently replied to disagree with one of his comments he made on his own article and found his reply to me to be most uncivil:






    I tried to post this reply:




    However, that comment was "awaiting moderation" for a day, and then he deleted it without ever posting it.

    So my impression of the guy is that he is discourteous.

    I don't buy the explanation that he is understandably defensive because of trolls, etc. I've been posting on the internet for a long time and have dealt with many trolls myself without resorting to such behavior as he displayed here.
    Last edited by Amin; 9th January 2016 at 13:51.
    Thanks 5 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 6 Member(s) liked this post

  6. #206
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    iiiNelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    3,187
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    At the risk of derailing this thread, I have to disagree with the bolded (by me) part of what you said here. I rarely read Steve's site and don't recall having commented there in the past other than to compliment a post here and there by him or a guest writer.

    However, I recently replied to disagree with one of his comments he made on his own article and found his reply to me to be most uncivil:






    I tried to post this reply:




    However, that comment was "awaiting moderation" for a day, and then he deleted it without ever posting it.

    So my impression of the guy is that he is discourteous. I don't buy the explanation that he is understandably defensive because of trolls, etc. I've been posting on the internet for a long time and have dealt with many trolls myself without resorting to such behavior as he displayed here.
    Wow... Far be it from me to be a Steve Huff apologist but he is human and I believe even the most rational mind is entitled to bad days here and there. I don't really want to bash him as I do enjoy his "reviews" and articles even if nothing else to keep a balance between the pessimists and the chart shooters. Sometimes a picture or 75 is worth more to me to see what a camera/lens is potentially capable of.

    I've had a difference of opinion or two with him in the past regarding "12 megapixels being enough for anyone except pixel peepers" and sometimes you just gotta take a step back from subjective opinions. Sometimes it really is simply a matter of personal use. He is very passionate about most things Leica (and that's fine) and I was too at one point to an extent far shorter than he is. These days I shoot Sony mostly but over the last 10 years my primary system has changed from Canon, Panasonic, Leica, and now Sony. The bottom line is that all things aside I rather have more opinions available than fewer so I'm thankful for everyone's experiences - even when I don't 100% agree with them.
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
    http://www.iiinelsonimages.com

  7. #207
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    As I mentioned in my very first comment. I dislike the SL for different reasons then Brad. And I think Leica will eventually iron out the system.. And once more lenses are available, I think I can be happy with it. Or at least make use of it.

    I find all sorts of bugs with Leica's cameras as I'm generally an early adopter.. I always email them. They never do anything about it.
    Eventually they get around to all of it, they figure it out after about a year or two.


    Ponder this.. Leica touts this as being a AF masterpiece. But then releases a f/2.8 - f/4 lens (slow) which causes the AF to struggle in low light. IF they had released a f/1.4 lens, the AF would theoretically be great in low light. And it would have seemed like Leica actually got something right. If it was truly a "no compromise" system, they would have realised that making the zoom slower meant AF issues. And would have either limited the range, or just made it bigger in order to make the lens faster (f/2.8 at least).. And at this point, I don't think people would have really noticed it if it was bigger.

    It's not an MF lens BTW. I don't even know why they put two rings on it. Has anyone tried to MF the vario-SL? Terrible. So when the AF fails in low light... You can't even MF. And if the lens itself fails, then you're totally screwed, it'll just be a "something heavier than a brick" brick. You'd have to switch over to M glass. And if I'm going to do that, I have my RF which I can focus faster and like the colors from a lot better.

    Speaking of the colors, the out of camera colors are decent at best. With really bad skin tones in certain light. Very weird blown out looking JPG files. And the RAW files are identical to the A7II with little to no processing (assuming both cameras have the same lens attached). Nothing unique or Leica-esq about the colors out of this sensor.

    Tried the SF-40 flash. Wouldn't buy it. Might as well spend less then half the money and get the I40 from nissan in m4/3 mount. And just use it on A or M mode. TTL is terrible on the SL. None of the flashes work with it (24D, sf26, sf40, sf58). I've tried them all.. It's TTL system is the poorest of any camera I've owned. I'm no longer holding out hope for the SF-64, it's not going to be good without a serious SL body firmware update.

    But to defend my earlier comment. I think the SL is a good step in the right direction for Leica.. They did a good thing. They just didn't release a complete enough system. Nor did they think a lot of things through when they brought the camera to market. I think by the time the necessary things come (S-adaper, R-adapter, native AF lenses) the camera will be old news, and or people who have had it 6m-1y will be frustrated with it, and will be looking to unload it to go back to the M.


    So why not just buy an A7II if you don't need the ergonomics and the simple menus? Would save a LOT of money.
    THE ONLY SAVING GRACE and the reason I haven't sold it, is the fact that it has a good UI and good ergonomics, feels nice in my hand. And I'm holding out hope that the native 50mm Summilux-L will BLOW everything out of the water. If it doesn't.. The camera's gonna be sold to the highest bidder. And I'll just stick with my M and S-systems.
    My experience with color is different. I feel the SL color - under most conditions - is quite good while I have been not 100% with Sony color.
    Reasons to keep the SL over a SOny would be (IMO)
    - better viewfinder
    -better midrange zoom lens
    -faster AF
    -if you own M lenses better IQ

    Reasons to get the Sony:
    more MP
    smaller
    lower price
    more Af lenses available at the moment

  8. #208
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post

    I don't buy the explanation that he is understandably defensive because of trolls, etc. I've been posting on the internet for a long time and have dealt with many trolls myself without resorting to such behavior as he displayed here.
    After thinking about this, here is my opinion.

    I think the animosity wasn't personal but a result of clash of the blogs. He has his and you (a competitor) have yours.

    So, this does not bother the most who post here.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #209
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    353
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Not to mention that the click-through links to buy stuff make money for his blog. So why not praise all cameras and just say that "I only review cameras I like". But I give credit to the guy for creating a site with an apparently large audience and a healthy set of advertisers. And, it is his blog, he can say what he likes so long as it is given as an opinion and not "factual information".

    I do agree that it is a clash of the blogs.

    I wonder how Ken Rockwell is doing these days?
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  10. #210
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I heart Ken!

    The best there is and the best there ever was!
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  11. #211
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I don't think of Steve Huff as my competition, and I wouldn't be rude to him regardless.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  12. #212
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    My experience with color is different. I feel the SL color - under most conditions - is quite good while I have been not 100% with Sony color.
    Reasons to keep the SL over a SOny would be (IMO)
    - better viewfinder
    -better midrange zoom lens
    -faster AF
    -if you own M lenses better IQ

    Reasons to get the Sony:
    more MP
    smaller
    lower price
    more Af lenses available at the moment

    I've done side by sides with the A7II and the SL. I have two 50APO lenses, I had one on each camera. Spent two hours shooting random things. The sensor colors are EXACTLY the same. EXACTLY. This isn't a good thing.. I much prefer the M240 colors.. And I much much prefer the S-006 colors.. Pity, but true. Leica can and probably will fix this over the next 6 months.

    The only way I would concede that the colors are different (more agreeable in the SL's favour) are when you have the A7II mounted with (insert any native FE lens here) and the SL with the native zoom. Then, I would concede that the colors are better from the SL. Though if you could get the SL zoom on the A7II, they would be the same.


    Yes, I can agree the EVF is the best. But I've already said that numerous times around the web. The zoom is good, though not what I would have wanted from Leica. The AF is definitely faster and more reliable in good light, and backlit situations (very important to note). And yes, the M lens IQ is better for some wider lenses.. Some are the same.


    I'm keeping the SL.. No doubt. But I'm only keeping it because I'm looking forward to trying the 50 Summilux-L. If that lens fails to meet my expectations (it's getting the boot). And in that case, I'll just stick with my Nikon kit for AF and will continue to use my M and S-systems for everything not OCF or where I need faster AF.

    Shame, as this WAS the camera I was waiting for... Just wish it would have launched with the 50prime so I could make my decision quicker.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  13. #213
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post
    I've done side by sides with the A7II and the SL. I have two 50APO lenses, I had one on each camera. Spent two hours shooting random things. The sensor colors are EXACTLY the same. EXACTLY. This isn't a good thing.. I much prefer the M240 colors.. And I much much prefer the S-006 colors.. Pity, but true. Leica can and probably will fix this over the next 6 months.

    The only way I would concede that the colors are different (more agreeable in the SL's favour) are when you have the A7II mounted with (insert any native FE lens here) and the SL with the native zoom. Then, I would concede that the colors are better from the SL. Though if you could get the SL zoom on the A7II, they would be the same.


    Yes, I can agree the EVF is the best. But I've already said that numerous times around the web. The zoom is good, though not what I would have wanted from Leica. The AF is definitely faster and more reliable in good light, and backlit situations (very important to note). And yes, the M lens IQ is better for some wider lenses.. Some are the same.


    I'm keeping the SL.. No doubt. But I'm only keeping it because I'm looking forward to trying the 50 Summilux-L. If that lens fails to meet my expectations (it's getting the boot). And in that case, I'll just stick with my Nikon kit for AF and will continue to use my M and S-systems for everything not OCF or where I need faster AF.

    Shame, as this WAS the camera I was waiting for... Just wish it would have launched with the 50prime so I could make my decision quicker.
    Hi there,
    I didnt do any side by side comparisons (I gave my whole SOny kit away to help paying for the SL and 24-90) and only can talk about from my impression from using the A7/A7s/A7II for a certain period but never owned the A7rII.
    I know that I sometimes found the Sony colors showing a little less life in skin tones than I would wish for and that I feel the shots from the SL have a certain depth and look colorwise quite good (as long as I can judge from using the camera just for very few weeks and only in certain conditions). But I dont doubt your findings and in the end I also didnt use the SOny enough to bring the best out of the files. For me I get better along with the SL than with the Sony in regards of speed,UI and IQ but I am not saying it is better for others.
    I still see some room for improvement of the SL user interface as well.


    I fully agree about the 50mm prime, I am waiting for that lens as well, even though I wish it was a little smaller, maybe a 50 APO-Summicron with AF

  14. #214
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Colors are fine with the Sony cams and also there is nothing magical about SL's AWB.

    I have difficulty believing that the SL' s CDAF is faster than that of Sony's PDAF (where available).
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  15. #215
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Hi there,
    I didnt do any side by side comparisons (I gave my whole SOny kit away to help paying for the SL and 24-90) and only can talk about from my impression from using the A7/A7s/A7II for a certain period but never owned the A7rII.
    I know that I sometimes found the Sony colors showing a little less life in skin tones than I would wish for and that I feel the shots from the SL have a certain depth and look colorwise quite good (as long as I can judge from using the camera just for very few weeks and only in certain conditions). But I dont doubt your findings and in the end I also didnt use the SOny enough to bring the best out of the files. For me I get better along with the SL than with the Sony in regards of speed,UI and IQ but I am not saying it is better for others.
    I still see some room for improvement of the SL user interface as well.


    I fully agree about the 50mm prime, I am waiting for that lens as well, even though I wish it was a little smaller, maybe a 50 APO-Summicron with AF
    The 50APO w/fast AF... I'd be into that!!

    You might like the skin tons better because you're using the zoom? It's a good lens. I must say, it's very clean without being clinical. That's probably why you've fallen in love with the SL.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Colors are fine with the Sony cams and also there is nothing magical about SL's AWB.

    I have difficulty believing that the SL' s CDAF is faster than that of Sony's PDAF (where available).

    It's twice as fast or more.. And that's primarily due to the way the lens was designed.

    OH and FYI, Leica is saying that the tele-zoom will be even faster due to the way it was designed as well.

  16. #216
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by aDam007 View Post

    It's twice as fast or more.. And that's primarily due to the way the lens was designed.

    OH and FYI, Leica is saying that the tele-zoom will be even faster due to the way it was designed as well.
    Then it is a keeper! Don't ever let it go!

  17. #217
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Then it is a keeper! Don't ever let it go!
    Yes but.. Since the lens isn't a fixed aperture zoom. When you're in shittier lighting conditions the tele end suffers from not being able to hit focus well, or at all.

    Had Leica made the lens a bit bigger and made it a constant f/2 (pipe dream) I would have actually been able to use it successfully for what I'm trying to use it for.

    Unfortunately by the time Leica releases the 50Lux-L the camera will be outdated already. And several other possibly more compelling options will be available to the consumer. So if the 50Lux isn't stellar, then I'm out. Until further development, I consider it a failure for what they're boasting they've achieved.


    The good news is, you can shoot straight into harsh sun and it has no problem achieving focus. I tried this side by side with the A7 series w/minimal luck from the Sony. It's just low light where the SL falls apart (due to the lens being slow).

  18. #218
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Not a Steve Huff fan or detractor ... he's just another source of info. The exchange posted here didn't seem all that rude, and the one poster never did answer whether they had actually held, shot or used the SL in any way. Seems like a hissy fight between bloggers adding nothing to understanding the SL for those interested in this new camera.

    If the colors and color rendering of the SL are indeed EXACTLY the same as Sony, then I'm crossing the SL off any consideration list since I'm not a fan of Sony's native rendering (so far).

    A 24-90 fixed f/2 lens would be a dream all right ... a nightmare to be specific. It'd be Giganticus-Humungus. Look at any AF lens line-up ... when you go from a f/2.8 version to a f/2 version of a focal length, the size takes a disproportionate hit. Probably why NikCanSony never pushed past 24-70/2.8 ... a 24-90/2.8 would already be bigger, and a f/2 version would go off the charts.

    Marc

  19. #219
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    All I know that I have struggled more with getting Sony A7/A7II and A7s Images and (skin) color to my taste vs what I need to get SL Images to my taste.

    Regarding the Zoom, yes some more Speed would be nice to make the lens more usefull for indoors, but I also agree the size is at the Limit allready.
    So for indoors without Flash a fast prime should be the better solution, and for outdoors the range of the Zoom is quite usefull. Maybe I would prefer a 24-70 with constant f2.8 as a compromise.

  20. #220
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    All I know that I have struggled more with getting Sony A7/A7II and A7s Images and (skin) color to my taste vs what I need to get SL Images to my taste.
    Things change for the better.

    I don't have the A7r II but have the RX1R II (similar tech) and it is pretty good. The AF (PDAF) is so good that I do not use manual focus (for the first time) at all!

    The SL will mature in years to come, no doubt about that.

    I glanced through another forum and one of the mods there is claiming that the 24mp resolves more than 42mp and is getting slammed by some of the participants there.

    Can anyone here support that claim (24 Leica is sharper than 42 Sony)?

  21. #221
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Things change for the better.

    I don't have the A7r II but have the RX1R II (similar tech) and it is pretty good. The AF (PDAF) is so good that I do not use manual focus (for the first time) at all!

    The SL will mature in years to come, no doubt about that.

    I glanced through another forum and one of the mods there is claiming that the 24mp resolves more than 42mp and is getting slammed by some of the participants there.

    Can anyone here support that claim (24 Leica is sharper than 42 Sony)?
    I once had a Rx1 and found the Color better than that of the A7.
    I have high doubts that the SL 24MP would outresolve a 42mp sensor (when an appropriate lens is used) but I have not checked myself.
    I know that the 36MP from the Leica S outresolve the SL, so I assume the RX1RII or a A7RII with a good lens would outresolve the SL (at least if one goes up to a certain print size).

    On the other side, if you mean S.H. than we all know that he is sometimes a Little enthusiastic about new cameras.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  22. #222
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    On the other side, if you mean S.H. than we all know that he is sometimes a Little enthusiastic about new cameras.
    I did not. But it seems he is not alone.

    Took Back my SL - Leica SL System - Leica Forum

    Enjoy!

    PS: It brought back memories of strikingly similar arguments in favor of the 10MP M8. People were printing out METER long pictures from it.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  23. #223
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I did not. But it seems he is not alone.

    Took Back my SL - Leica SL System - Leica Forum

    Enjoy!

    PS: It brought back memories of strikingly similar arguments in favor of the 10MP M8. People were printing out METER long pictures from it.

    Yes Vivek, that forum is hard to stomach from time to time.
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  24. #224
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    3,999
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Yes Vivek, that forum is hard to stomach from time to time.
    Yup, Leica protectionism at its best ...
    Bart ...
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  25. #225
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I did not. But it seems he is not alone.

    Took Back my SL - Leica SL System - Leica Forum

    Enjoy!

    PS: It brought back memories of strikingly similar arguments in favor of the 10MP M8. People were printing out METER long pictures from it.
    Ah, I see, allready 2 people who believe 24MP outresolves 36MP.
    And then there is one who found out 36MP outresolve 24MP but who first needed to buy a 24MP camera to find out.
    Others know that the SL is too low resolution for their prints without having done any print.
    Some feel the 50mm AF f/1.4 and the 28-70 f/2.8 AFS are "remarkable" lenses, others put manual focus Zeiss lenses on the D810.

    So what do I learn?
    The SL is a low resolution camera, the color is the same like Sony, the remarkable Nikon 24-70/2.8 is at least as good as the Leica 24-90, and then there is the remarkable 50/1.4 Nikon AF lens, the sensor in the M type 240 is outdated, and you can not do good looking prints from a M8 because it just has 10MP, and -big surprise-there are many people in the Leica forum who do like Leica cameras.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  26. #226
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Well, the power of imagination! We all have it - to different degrees.
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #227
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Knorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    3,999
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Ah, I see, allready 2 people who believe 24MP outresolves 36MP.
    And then there is one who found out 36MP outresolve 24MP but who first needed to buy a 24MP camera to find out.
    Others know that the SL is too low resolution for their prints without having done any print.
    Some feel the 50mm AF f/1.4 and the 28-70 f/2.8 AFS are "remarkable" lenses, others put manual focus Zeiss lenses on the D810.

    So what do I learn?
    The SL is a low resolution camera, the color is the same like Sony, the remarkable Nikon 24-70/2.8 is at least as good as the Leica 24-90, and then there is the remarkable 50/1.4 Nikon AF lens, the sensor in the M type 240 is outdated, and you can not do good looking prints from a M8 because it just has 10MP, and -big surprise-there are many people in the Leica forum who do like Leica cameras.
    Hope it doesn't spoil your fun with the SL, Tom.
    I still believe it's an awesome camera.

    Kind regards.
    Bart ...
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  28. #228
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    The color is the same as Sony?

    What I learned is that the color is the same as Sony or perhaps different than Sony.

    Also, I suspect that 24 is more than 42, but less than 18.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  29. #229
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Hope it doesn't spoil your fun with the SL, Tom.
    I still believe it's an awesome camera.

    Kind regards.
    Oh,
    it doesnt have any negative or positive influence on my fun with the camera.
    But here is my honest opinion:
    Either my perception has changed over the years or the substance in many threads has decreased from a informative, enjoying character (still with critical aspects as well), to a very theoretical one, focused on negative aspects. As a Leica user I am used to comments that Leicas are overprized luxury products for rich people. I can live with it because I believe in what I see with my eyes.
    However the heavily increasing use of the word "outdated" , optical viewfinders are outdated, sensors of D5 is outdated allready today as I have learned in forums, etc. etc. have an influence on the fun I have spending time in the forums.
    Then there are the "the camera x is 80g hevier than the camera y and hurts my back" etc. etc.
    Frienkly most brands today offer excellent cameras, so many things are a matter of personal taste and expectations.
    There are still threads which have a lot of value for me, but they become less.
    And again, I dont know if it is me or the development how the internet and the forums develop.
    Thanks 4 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  30. #230
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    "Either my perception has changed over the years or the substance in many threads has decreased from a informative, enjoying character (still with critical aspects as well), to a very theoretical one, focused on negative aspects."

    I don't think it's you that's changed.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  31. #231
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Bay Area
    Posts
    494
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    17

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Short and to the point: went to the Leica Store on an overcast day in SF today and spent half an hour with the SL, admittedly not long, but enough to come away with a good first impression. The body felt great. With the 24-90 (without shade) the whole did not seem out of proportion. With a 50mm Summicron mounted via the M-T adapter, the balance was fine. An initial look at the files in LR 6.3, they seem fine, with too much push in the highlights for my taste. All in all, very enjoyable.
    Ed
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  32. #232
    Subscriber and Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,802
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Back to this thread and ...

    SO much drama ... about a little camera.

    Here is the deal ... IMHO ... like it then shoot it into the ground. Make it work and spend a bit more time making
    pictures than defending them.

    Don't like it ... OK great ... take your little Eurydice camera and spend a bit more time making pictures.

    Everytime a new box is unveiled the wailing starts.

    There has been a dearth of posts relating to photography and a surfeit of art.

    If you got the best box prove ... show us something.

    Bob
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  33. #233
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    191
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Either my perception has changed over the years or the substance in many threads has decreased from a informative, enjoying character (still with critical aspects as well), to a very theoretical one, focused on negative aspects.
    Unfortunately your analysis is spot on...

  34. #234
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Back to this thread and ...

    SO much drama ... about a little camera.

    Here is the deal ... IMHO ... like it then shoot it into the ground. Make it work and spend a bit more time making
    pictures than defending them.

    Don't like it ... OK great ... take your little Eurydice camera and spend a bit more time making pictures.

    Everytime a new box is unveiled the wailing starts.

    There has been a dearth of posts relating to photography and a surfeit of art.

    If you got the best box prove ... show us something.



    Bob
    What you mean a photography forum should have more focus and interest in photographs of quality?

    Don't be ridiculous young man!!

    This forum has become 'lets laugh at Leica and those people who bought one.
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  35. #235
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    What you mean a photography forum should have more focus and interest in photographs of quality?

    Don't be ridiculous young man!!

    This forum has become 'lets laugh at Leica and those people who bought one.

    Well, then quite a few of the contributors are laughing about themselves, including myself.
    Rather folks care about Leica and their products, I think. Otherwise why bother with this thread.
    With best regards, K-H.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  36. #236
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    353
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by k-hawinkler View Post
    Well, then quite a few of the contributors are laughing about themselves, including myself.
    Rather folks care about Leica and their products, I think. Otherwise why bother with this thread.
    Yeah. I am still laughing about the time I bought the S2 and all S lenses. Or, the M9 and all the M lenses. And more recently a bagful of R lenses. Yeah, let us not talk about gear and hence no separate forums for Leica, Sony, Nikon, etc. No discussion or bragging about how perfect the SL is. Let us just create one thread and just post photos, sans any camera/lens info or any other discussion.

    I believe there are already threads for sharing photos, so folks who don't like these discussions, feel free to post your masterpieces there. In the meantime, let some of us laugh, debate and discuss the minutiae of seemingly irrelevant things.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  37. #237
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    I do like discussing gear and I think we all know that most people here are gear heads.
    I think the combination of discussing gear together with showing Images can be a lot of fun.
    I am just tired of the words "outdated" and "flawed".
    Also it seems to me that today there are more and more People join threads to prove that the discussed product isnt worth it or that there are better choices available, without contributing any new info about the product or without having any own experience with the discussed product.
    By the way I really like the OP start-thread here. Someone shares his experience with the SL and explained why it is not for him, with reasons and experience.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  38. #238
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    k-hawinkler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The "Land of Enchantment"
    Posts
    3,300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    What I object to are misleading statements about any gear, regardless of maker.
    Last edited by k-hawinkler; 12th January 2016 at 09:16.
    With best regards, K-H.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  39. #239
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Someone doesn't like the SL and/or wishes it had something another camera has, and another forum member insinuates that they are being anti-Leica or having a need to attack the camera to feel good about another camera.

    Someone loves the SL and points out how they prefer something about it to another camera, and another forum member insinuates that they are being a Leica fanboy or feeling the need to defend their purchase.

    Sometimes people just like or dislike something, alone or in relation to something else. How nice would it be if we all just gave one another the benefit of the doubt?

    I for one think we'd be better off without psychoanalyzing one another.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 5 Member(s) liked this post

  40. #240
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Not a Steve Huff fan or detractor ... he's just another source of info. The exchange posted here didn't seem all that rude, and the one poster never did answer whether they had actually held, shot or used the SL in any way. Seems like a hissy fight between bloggers adding nothing to understanding the SL for those interested in this new camera.

    If the colors and color rendering of the SL are indeed EXACTLY the same as Sony, then I'm crossing the SL off any consideration list since I'm not a fan of Sony's native rendering (so far).

    A 24-90 fixed f/2 lens would be a dream all right ... a nightmare to be specific. It'd be Giganticus-Humungus. Look at any AF lens line-up ... when you go from a f/2.8 version to a f/2 version of a focal length, the size takes a disproportionate hit. Probably why NikCanSony never pushed past 24-70/2.8 ... a 24-90/2.8 would already be bigger, and a f/2 version would go off the charts.

    Marc
    A boy can dream But seriously I'd work out just for that lens!!

    I too dislike the Sony A7 native colors. Which is why I'm pretty annoyed at the SL's colors. I feel the S-006 and M240 are pretty superior in that sense. The S-007 can be tamed, but I'm still not use to it. The M9 was fantastic but for camera body reasons not my first choice these days.

    Honestly, the M240 sensor really is pretty marvellous (in CMOS terms). I still feel it wipes the floor with a LOT of other sensors that are better on spec.

  41. #241
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Posts
    673
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Things change for the better.

    I don't have the A7r II but have the RX1R II (similar tech) and it is pretty good. The AF (PDAF) is so good that I do not use manual focus (for the first time) at all!

    The SL will mature in years to come, no doubt about that.

    I glanced through another forum and one of the mods there is claiming that the 24mp resolves more than 42mp and is getting slammed by some of the participants there.

    Can anyone here support that claim (24 Leica is sharper than 42 Sony)?

    I'm not going to get into it, so let's just say it depends.

  42. #242
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    312
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Steve Huff makes money through affiliate sales via Amazon and B&H. He probably stands to make a lot of money by getting an already trigger happy user base to buy such an expensive camera through his site. That whole first article where he trashes the SL but then comes round to it after using it was a scripted and planned affair. So Steve is going to try and do stupid things like show a soft image from the A7RII and a sharp image from the SL just to convince people with red-dot colored glasses that the SL has some special magic in it that Sony can't possibly achieve, which is really just classic 'luxury' marketing. With a couple exceptions (the 240, 242, monos and Q) most Leica's are just the Birkin for men, so that's what you have to do to convince people. Don't go to Steve Huff's site for anything other than sample images from a camera. Personally I can't believe that he still posts pictures of his kid, dog, girlfriend, tree in back yard, repeat, but whatever floats his boat...

  43. #243
    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    2,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    53

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Speedgraphic - If you knew Steve Huff at all you'd realize your post is completely wrong. He writes real-world articles and tells you exactly what he believes. He makes no more money if you buy a camera or not. He never fudges images to make one thing look better than another. I like the fact that he posts photos of familiar sights - you can go back years and see how gear had changed. He never posts photos in a review that he claims are "art". His site is ad supported but so are 90% of the rest of the sites on the Web. I'd rather that then pay a subscription fee to read it. He doesn't get rich doing this, he does it because he loves it. You can disagree with him in the comments on any article and he will likely explain why he came to some conclusion, but he will never personally attack you.

    Now back to the Leica SL...
    Brad Husick
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  44. #244
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Where is the "Unlike" button when you need it?

    Seems like mean spirited conjecture IMO.

    As a user of a Leica S system for paying and personal work, the statement, "Most Leicas (with listed exceptions) are just the Birkin for men." is pretty insulting.

    Nothing wrong with not liking Mr. Huff's approach to gear review, but to infer some nefarious motives meant to mislead readers, and using disparaging innuendo to trash him and his interested readers, is disingenuous at best.

    Steve seems like an upbeat sort of guy. Maybe that's the problem?

    - Marc
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  45. #245
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    He makes no more money if you buy a camera or not.
    That is not true. Steve posts this under his reviews so that if you buy the camera, he can make money:




    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    You can disagree with him in the comments on any article and he will likely explain why he came to some conclusion, but he will never personally attack you.
    Also untrue. As I screenshotted earlier in this thread, I disagreed with Steve in the comments. He attacked me in response, calling me a troll and a Leica hater.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  46. #246
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Steve Huff makes money through affiliate sales via Amazon and B&H. He probably stands to make a lot of money by getting an already trigger happy user base to buy such an expensive camera through his site. That whole first article where he trashes the SL but then comes round to it after using it was a scripted and planned affair. So Steve is going to try and do stupid things like show a soft image from the A7RII and a sharp image from the SL just to convince people with red-dot colored glasses that the SL has some special magic in it that Sony can't possibly achieve, which is really just classic 'luxury' marketing. With a couple exceptions (the 240, 242, monos and Q) most Leica's are just the Birkin for men, so that's what you have to do to convince people. Don't go to Steve Huff's site for anything other than sample images from a camera. Personally I can't believe that he still posts pictures of his kid, dog, girlfriend, tree in back yard, repeat, but whatever floats his boat...
    That is one of the most offensive posts I've seen here. You are essentially labelling Mr Huff as dishonest.

    Perhaps, unsurprisingly, this kind of defamation of character invariably comes from those who post anonymously.

    If I was Mr Huff I'd be looking into finding your identity...
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  47. #247
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    i'm something of a grammar policeman, can't help it...no evil intended, regardless of how it might seem
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless
    "The origin of irregardless is not known for certain, but the speculation among references is that it may be a blend, or portmanteau word, of the standard English words irrespective and regardless. The blend creates a word with a meaning not predictable from the meanings of its constituent morphemes. Since the prefix ir- means "not" (as it does with irrespective), and the suffix -less means "without", the word contains a double negative. The word irregardless could therefore be expected to have the meaning "in regard to", instead of being a synonym of regardless."
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  48. #248
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Vivek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    13,606
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    21

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i'm something of a grammar policeman, can't help it...no evil intended, regardless of how it might seem
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless
    "The origin of irregardless is not known for certain, but the speculation among references is that it may be a blend, or portmanteau word, of the standard English words irrespective and regardless. The blend creates a word with a meaning not predictable from the meanings of its constituent morphemes. Since the prefix ir- means "not" (as it does with irrespective), and the suffix -less means "without", the word contains a double negative. The word irregardless could therefore be expected to have the meaning "in regard to", instead of being a synonym of regardless."
    I agree. That word should not be used as it makes no sense!

  49. #249
    Senior Member bradhusick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Seattle, WA USA
    Posts
    2,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    53

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by Amin View Post
    That is not true. Steve posts this under his reviews so that if you buy the camera, he can make money:






    Also untrue. As I screenshotted earlier in this thread, I disagreed with Steve in the comments. He attacked me in response, calling me a troll and a Leica hater.
    How much more money do you think he makes if you buy? My guess is not a lot.

    Perhaps your comment was troll-ish and deserved push back. The fact remains we are not here to attack others.

    Now back to the Leica SL...
    Brad Husick

  50. #250
    Senior Member Amin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Boston, MA (USA)
    Posts
    1,809
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Two different views on the Leica SL

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    How much more money do you think he makes if you buy? My guess is not a lot.
    B&H pays him at least 3% and likely more than that since Steve does high volume. That means at least $225 for every Leica SL sale that occurs after an affiliate link click. Amazon pays more than that, sometimes more than twice as much.

    A few more words here about affiliate revenue here. Let me start off by saying that I am not accusing Steve Huff of anything here. I am speaking generally.

    There is no doubt that affiliate revenue is a potential source of bias for reviewers. I can state this from personal experience. When I review a lens and include affiliate links, I do so with full awareness that a glowing review is likely to convert 3 or 4 sales immediately with affiliate percentages running from 2-5% typically (sometimes higher), whereas a review that ends with "I decided not to buy this one" will usually convert no sales at all. For a review of a $800 lens, that is the difference between me making about $100 and making nothing.

    Do I feel that conflict of interest? Am I tempted to be extra positive? The answers are yes and yes. I do my best to write honestly despite that temptation, and I believe I am successful at that, but the conflict of interest is present. And that is despite the fact that I make 99.9% of my salary by working as a medical doctor and have relatively low traffic websites. How much greater a conflict of interest must there be for someone who makes their living from blogging and has a high traffic site? I can't answer that, but I think it has to be significant.


    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    Perhaps your comment was troll-ish and deserved push back.
    I screenshotted my comment here in its entirety, so no one needs to guess at that.


    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    The fact remains we are not here to attack others.
    On that we agree. However, while I think it is inappropriate to suggest that Steve intentionally misleads people, I do find the blurry A7RII crops he posted in the SL comparison to be inexplicable.
    Last edited by Amin; 12th January 2016 at 15:22.
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •