Two different views on the Leica SL

[siddhaarta]

The Digiloyd review appeared at the same time as Ming Thein's review, so it is not clear what was the production level of his lens. Both were done before deliveries to regular customers were permitted. Also, AF tuning is done in DSLRs with phase detection sensors which are separate from the image chip. Contrast detection AF doesn't have that separation -- the lens is adjusted to maximize contrast in selected locations of the actual image -- so as far as I know there are no cameras offering AF tuning when they work this way.

scott

Thanks for the explication.

But are you sure about the timing? Chambers analysis started yesterday and I remember that he did not get a test copy from Leica ...

 

[siddhaarta]

Loyd thinks the AF of the Leica S is flawed and I took thousands of images and even if the effect he describes can occur (I dont know if it does) the AF works just fine in real life.

Regarding focus shift of the 24-90. I havent explored any problem but I also have not searched for a problem (and will not search).
In my case I use the Zoom mostly either wide open (where focus shift shouldnt have any influence) or stepped down to maybe f5.6 or f8 (not so often) where I would guess DOF is so deep that focus shift also would not cause any problem.

I can see that focus shift of a Noctilux 1.0 or a f1.4 lens is a problem, but a midrange zoom with f2.8-4.0?
Any examples for situations where this shows up in real life?
Or is it just a trick to win readers to subscribe to a pixelpeaper-pay-site?
BUT: As I said, I havent looked for the issue, so it might be very well possible that it is really there.

Sure, you are right, ones own "real world" is one thing and Chambers "world" and level of technical perfectionism is another thing.

I subscribed his site for some time when I was about to buy some manual Zeiss and Leica lenses. Mostly his analysis was right but - for me - not so relevant in "real life". Nevertheless, it was very helpful to get to know better your lenses with their specific weaknesses and peculiarities.

 

[Knorp]

Loyd thinks the AF of the Leica S is flawed and I took thousands of images and even if the effect he describes can occur (I dont know if it does) the AF works just fine in real life.

Regarding focus shift of the 24-90. I havent explored any problem but I also have not searched for a problem (and will not search).
In my case I use the Zoom mostly either wide open (where focus shift shouldnt have any influence) or stepped down to maybe f5.6 or f8 (not so often) where I would guess DOF is so deep that focus shift also would not cause any problem.

I can see that focus shift of a Noctilux 1.0 or a f1.4 lens is a problem, but a midrange zoom with f2.8-4.0?
Any examples for situations where this shows up in real life?
Or is it just a trick to win readers to subscribe to a pixelpeaper-pay-site?
BUT: As I said, I havent looked for the issue, so it might be very well possible that it is really there.

Tom, I understand and that's why I asked if it was a serious issue, if an issue at all.
However, I remember a recent focus shift issue with that other brand where focusing occured WO and whereupon the aperture closed to the chosen value and so revealed focus shift prone lenses.
It was only after a firmware update that this issue was addressed.
Could (have been) be true for the 24-90 as well.

 

[docmoore]

Lloyd Chambers is not alone: Ming Thein observed the same behaviour: Premiere and review: The 2015 Leica SL (Typ 601) and lenses.
There must be something true. But is it serious, I wonder ?

How serious can it be with an EVF of this quality ... IOW hit AF then fine tune it manually if needed as you should be able to see what is on the sensor with regards to focus.

Just like my previous S2-P ... focus with back button to get in the ballpark and correct if I thought there was any needed.

Focus shift is an optical property - it behooves the photographer to understand it and work within its limits.

The quality of in focus pictures coming from a bunch of older guys with the SL convinces me it is not a major issue ... as their game
seems much better with this camera.

Bob

 

[dgktkr]

If this focus issue is of interest to you, you might want to check out the discussion at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255186-24-90mm-focus-shift-diglloyd/

Testing for yourself is easy enough to do. There's no need to rely on the opinions of "experts".

I found no significant focus problems with my 24-90 zoom on the SL.

dgktkr

 

[Knorp]

If this focus issue is of interest to you, you might want to check out the discussion at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/255186-24-90mm-focus-shift-diglloyd/

Testing for yourself is easy enough to do. There's no need to rely on the opinions of "experts".

I found no significant focus problems with my 24-90 zoom on the SL.

dgktkr

Problem is I have to rely on the opinions of "experts" or better still people here using both the SL and 24-90
Now it happens those who qualify are all bailing out ... :banghead:

 

[erudolph]

Problem is I have to rely on the opinions of "experts" or better still people here using both the SL and 24-90
Now it happens those who qualify are all bailing out ... :banghead:

Exactly the problem with the way this thread has developed, though, truth to tell, its development doesn't seem unusual.

 

[lambert]

Wow - the SL a practical joke ? That's a strong cuppa ... :shocked:

Why? I was just pointing out that I have yet to experience a lens from any manufacturer that is immune to sample variation.

 

[lambert]

Lloyd Chambers can be pedantic but he is very astute in his analysis of lenses. It was Lloyd, for example, that uncovered the flare issue with the 50/2.0 APO M lens.


"In April, I reported on a damaging flare issue with the Leica 50mm f/2 APO ASPH back in April. As I noted with conviction then: “The results are jaw-dropping, in a bad way”.

I had a few private conversations between then and now. My initial examples were rejected by the experts as not unusual and within the bounds of normal behavior. That this was patently false was obvious, but the M-veil exerts such a strong cognitive committment reality warp that the possibility was not admittable as evidence to most all M users. But the actual facts were 100% accessible to anyone willing to look objectively, which some of my readers did.

I then documented the issue with initial examples, as well as cross checking a variety of other M lenses, and documenting those too in my Guide to Leica.

LeicaRumors.com now reports that Leica's CEO Alfred Schopf has acknowledged a flare issue with their flagship 50mm f/2 APO ASPH and that current owners should send their lens to Leica for REPAIR. Which is where mine is, so I hope it comes back with improved behavior.

That's doesn't matter really, but I don’t review lenses and make flippant claims:

In the face of (private) criticism from “experts” who dismissed my findings, I stood my ground and just showed the FACTS. Which is what I do in all my work."

Link: diglloyd: Leica 50mm f/2 APO-Summicron-M ASPH Update on the Flare Issue

 

[dgktkr]

Problem is I have to rely on the opinions of "experts" or better still people here using both the SL and 24-90
Now it happens those who qualify are all bailing out ... :banghead:

Bart,

Good point, if you don't have an SL and a 24-90 in your possession, it's not so easy to do the test yourself.

Could you elaborate on who is bailing and why?

I read Ming's report, but, unfortunately, I didn't see details for the methods he used, just his conclusions. That makes it hard for people to try to reproduce his results.

When I did focus tests on my camera and lens I didn't see a problem.

dgktkr

 

[Knorp]

Exactly the problem with the way this thread has developed, though, truth to tell, its development doesn't seem unusual.

Spot on, Ed. The dream is always the same ...

 

[Knorp]

How serious can it be with an EVF of this quality ... IOW hit AF then fine tune it manually if needed as you should be able to see what is on the sensor with regards to focus.

Just like my previous S2-P ... focus with back button to get in the ballpark and correct if I thought there was any needed.

Focus shift is an optical property - it behooves the photographer to understand it and work within its limits.

The quality of in focus pictures coming from a bunch of older guys with the SL convinces me it is not a major issue ... as their game
seems much better with this camera.

Bob

You're probably right, Bob. Works fine for stationary objects no doubt.
Still, I can't imagine this is what most people have in mind in regard to AF.

Kind regards.

 

[Knorp]

Why? I was just pointing out that I have yet to experience a lens from any manufacturer that is immune to sample variation.

Not doubting your experiences, Lambert. Just referring to Lloyd's bold statement in his 49mm test article that you posted.

 

[Knorp]

Bart,

Good point, if you don't have an SL and a 24-90 in your possession, it's not so easy to do the test yourself.

Could you elaborate on who is bailing and why?

I read Ming's report, but, unfortunately, I didn't see details for the methods he used, just his conclusions. That makes it hard for people to try to reproduce his results.

When I did focus tests on my camera and lens I didn't see a problem.

dgktkr

Why people are bailing out is because they feel offended by some, IMO unnecessary, harsh remarks or statements.
One lacks stamina, the other follows suit and another is too polite: take your pick ...

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

That is bad news. I assume Chambers bought his copy, so it is not pre-production, as Ming's. I also assume he is professional enough to use the latest firmware. Nevertheless, the problem should and could be solved by firmware, if Leica wants to ....

As I am not a subscriber of Diglloyd, I cannot see how serious the focus shift is.

He also speaks of AF problems. I wonder if the Leica SL has a AF fine tuning menu … seems not.

Ming Thein's review was very early and used pre-production everything. He cites Lloyd Chambers. When was Chambers' review published? Ming's citation could have been added later, but it is not marked as an update, so I assumed that the two were done at about the same time.

scott

 

[retow]

Except that this thread is specifically supposed to be a thread about different perspectives on the same camera, not about how one camera compares to other cameras. I guess that means we disagree about how to have this discussion, above and beyond the discussion itself.

G

Perspectives are based on experiences, preferences, requirements. Logically all routed on understanding acquired and conclusions made by using cameras of whatever make. A comparison is inevitable.

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

On sample variation -- If someone wants to claim to have discovered sample variation on the basis of one sample (possibly not even in their possession), I would encourage them to spend some time reading Roger Cicala on the lensrental test blog. He has a solid methodology for discussing it, and he only presents results when he has done tests on 10 samples from their stock. Varying results achieved by one or two people are just as likely to be experimenter variation.

I think an important role of these discussions is to identify problems when they are genuine and substantiate them so that Leica will do something to fix them. That requires a more careful and dispassionate attitude than has been typical in this thread.

scott

 

[Oren Grad]

Ming Thein's review was very early and used pre-production everything. He cites Lloyd Chambers. When was Chambers' review published? Ming's citation could have been added later, but it is not marked as an update, so I assumed that the two were done at about the same time.

Lloyd is doing his tests now:

diglloyd: Leica SL: Evaluation of Focus Shift at 90mm for Leica 24-90mm f/2.8-4 Vario-Elmarit-SL

diglloyd: Leica SL: Evaluation of Focus Shift at 49mm for Leica 24-90mm f/2.8-4 Vario-Elmarit-SL

EDIT: OK, sorry folks - I see now that Lloyd's posts were already linked up-thread.

To the specific point, Lloyd tends to report on his tests on the fly - pretty much as he does them and catches up on the necessary image processing. His behind-the-paywall reviews are updated incrementally as he does new tests with the camera or lens in question. He's working with the SL now; Ming added his update about Lloyd's tests just the other day.

 

[jonoslack]

Why people are bailing out is because they feel offended by some, IMO unnecessary, harsh remarks or statements.
One lacks stamina, the other follows suit and another is too polite: take your pick ...

I'm not sure if I'm lacking stamina, or I'm too polite. Inconsistent at any rate!

Focus Shift

I contacted Ming and asked him how he had checked for it, and I've done lots of shots in the same way (f8, 90mm). Samples on request.

I could not duplicate it. Focus was nailed on the chosen point in each case.
There were some changes in firmware from 1.0 to 1.1, so there are 2 possibilities

1. There is a sample variation
2. It was fixed in firmware

Test images were taken both vertically and horizontally

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Now what is Lloyd crowing about? Can someone who subscribes enlighten us?

Lobbing grenades from behind a paywall is a bit unsporting.

scott