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Two different views on the Leica SL

D&A

Well-known member
Companies like Leica , have a relatively small core group as their fan and user base and although I believe they strive to retain this group as future purchasers and users of their gear, they do want to broaden that base. Its the only way to stay in business and grow.

Hence products like the SL which retain elememts of their current and previous systems, also introduces new technology and at the same time allows a wider use of optics. As Brad suggests, its a win win for all if it succeeds as it not only brings in the much needed income for growth and development of new products but allows continued production of the core group of products that people most associate with Leica. They might loose a few customers but gain the potential of adding new users at the same time

Dave (D&A)
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
diglloyd: Leica SL: Focus Point Bug

So, it appears for different magnifications the focus point is different, confirmed by Leica, according to Lloyd.
The camera isn't focusing at the intended point but slightly below it. :shocked:
Lloyd seems to have his merits. Leica should use him as a consultant before they release a new camera!
Bizarre seems to be Leica's inability to pay attention to such detail. :facesmack:
 
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aDam007

New member
diglloyd: Leica SL: Focus Point Bug

So, it appears for different magnifications the focus point is different, confirmed by Leica, according to Lloyd.
The camera isn't focusing at the intended point but slightly below it. :shocked:
Lloyd seems to have his merits. Leica should use him as a consultant before they release a new camera!
Bizarre seems to be Leica's inability to pay attention to such detail. :facesmack:

As I mentioned in my very first comment. I dislike the SL for different reasons then Brad. And I think Leica will eventually iron out the system.. And once more lenses are available, I think I can be happy with it. Or at least make use of it.

I find all sorts of bugs with Leica's cameras as I'm generally an early adopter.. I always email them. They never do anything about it.
Eventually they get around to all of it, they figure it out after about a year or two.


Ponder this.. Leica touts this as being a AF masterpiece. But then releases a f/2.8 - f/4 lens (slow) which causes the AF to struggle in low light. IF they had released a f/1.4 lens, the AF would theoretically be great in low light. And it would have seemed like Leica actually got something right. If it was truly a "no compromise" system, they would have realised that making the zoom slower meant AF issues. And would have either limited the range, or just made it bigger in order to make the lens faster (f/2.8 at least).. And at this point, I don't think people would have really noticed it if it was bigger.

It's not an MF lens BTW. I don't even know why they put two rings on it. Has anyone tried to MF the vario-SL? Terrible. So when the AF fails in low light... You can't even MF. And if the lens itself fails, then you're totally screwed, it'll just be a "something heavier than a brick" brick. You'd have to switch over to M glass. And if I'm going to do that, I have my RF which I can focus faster and like the colors from a lot better.

Speaking of the colors, the out of camera colors are decent at best. With really bad skin tones in certain light. Very weird blown out looking JPG files. And the RAW files are identical to the A7II with little to no processing (assuming both cameras have the same lens attached). Nothing unique or Leica-esq about the colors out of this sensor.

Tried the SF-40 flash. Wouldn't buy it. Might as well spend less then half the money and get the I40 from nissan in m4/3 mount. And just use it on A or M mode. TTL is terrible on the SL. None of the flashes work with it (24D, sf26, sf40, sf58). I've tried them all.. It's TTL system is the poorest of any camera I've owned. I'm no longer holding out hope for the SF-64, it's not going to be good without a serious SL body firmware update.

But to defend my earlier comment. I think the SL is a good step in the right direction for Leica.. They did a good thing. They just didn't release a complete enough system. Nor did they think a lot of things through when they brought the camera to market. I think by the time the necessary things come (S-adaper, R-adapter, native AF lenses) the camera will be old news, and or people who have had it 6m-1y will be frustrated with it, and will be looking to unload it to go back to the M.


So why not just buy an A7II if you don't need the ergonomics and the simple menus? Would save a LOT of money.
THE ONLY SAVING GRACE and the reason I haven't sold it, is the fact that it has a good UI and good ergonomics, feels nice in my hand. And I'm holding out hope that the native 50mm Summilux-L will BLOW everything out of the water. If it doesn't.. The camera's gonna be sold to the highest bidder. And I'll just stick with my M and S-systems.
 

Bernard

Member
So, it appears for different magnifications the focus point is different, confirmed by Leica, according to Lloyd.
It also appears that Lloyd's lens tests are done with autofocus, which makes them autofocus tests. I'm not sure how many people shoot tabletop with autofocus, but he's got his audience, so there must be a few.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
It also appears that Lloyd's lens tests are done with autofocus, which makes them autofocus tests. I'm not sure how many people shoot tabletop with autofocus, but he's got his audience, so there must be a few.
That is incorrect. No need to obfuscate the issue.
 

JorisV

New member
It would be interesting if somebody on this forum could try the resolution chart experiment as well. It seems a bit too far off for anybody not having noticed it yet...
 

JorisV

New member
But to defend my earlier comment. I think the SL is a good step in the right direction for Leica.. They did a good thing. They just didn't release a complete enough system. Nor did they think a lot of things through when they brought the camera to market. I think by the time the necessary things come (S-adaper, R-adapter, native AF lenses) the camera will be old news, and or people who have had it 6m-1y will be frustrated with it, and will be looking to unload it to go back to the M.
Rushing incomplete systems to the market has unfortunately become the trend. Fuji, Sony, Leica... they all do it.

It probably takes about 2-3 years for a system to be kind of complete. The Leica SL will not be an exception to that rule...

I am sticking to my earlier stated opinion, that 50mm better be damned good...!!
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
It would be interesting if somebody on this forum could try the resolution chart experiment as well. It seems a bit too far off for anybody not having noticed it yet...
Since I'm not going to pay for Lloyd's detailed investigation, it would take some work to reproduce the effect. It sounds as if he shot a test chart with something distracting close to the chart but at a different distance. I'm curious, but I think further tests should wait for the next firmware release. I'm sure he has Leica's attention by now, and although many of us suspect this is a pretty obscure problem, Lloyd is visible enough to get it attended to.

Compare this -- AF inaccuracy complicates tabletop photography -- with the defective 8-bit video codec that Leica fixed within a week after first shipments were out That WAS a problem, and not something Leica understood customers would do. Now they understand it. Also that issue was raised in forums with examples, not teased on a pay site, so it was pretty clear.

scott
 
V

Vivek

Guest
K-H, i disagree with you. No good will come out of it, imo.

If any of the Leica "consultants" had spotted the exploding cover glass of Leica M sensors they would have earned some credibility.
 

Bernard

Member
That is incorrect. No need to obfuscate the issue.
That's how I understand it from reading his blog. It's an AF issue that appears at base magnification, but not when the display is zoomed-in on the image. Specifically, the focus crosshair is not displayed in the correct location.
Things may be explained differently on his pay site, but I would not know about that.
 

doug

Well-known member
So why not just buy an A7II if you don't need the ergonomics and the simple menus? Would save a LOT of money.
The way I make the a7II responsive enough for my needs is to enable electronic first (shutter) curtain, which produces uneven exposure at the faster shutter speeds I often use. @#%!

THE ONLY SAVING GRACE and the reason I haven't sold it, is the fact that it has a good UI and good ergonomics, feels nice in my hand.
Living somewhat farther north of you and often visiting the Sierra Nevada mountains I suspect I use gloves more than you do. The a7II's several tiny, closely-spaced buttons & such are far too easily fat-fingered even without gloves. @#%!

And I'm holding out hope that the native 50mm Summilux-L will BLOW everything out of the water. If it doesn't.. The camera's gonna be sold to the highest bidder.
I'll be the first bidder.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Hope that changes for the better, Doug.

In the meantime, cursing or not, I still continue to enjoy your captures with your A7II. :)
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
Rushing incomplete systems to the market has unfortunately become the trend. Fuji, Sony, Leica... they all do it.

It probably takes about 2-3 years for a system to be kind of complete. The Leica SL will not be an exception to that rule...
After a certain point, products don't mature without customers. In IBM, we used to say that an operating system takes seven years to become solid and reliable, and that has been found true about a dozen times. So I look forward to seeing what's new, and am happy to help find out what needs fine-tuning. None of the problems reported to date are keeping me from enjoying the SL, and I have quite a few suggestions for the fine tuning.

scott
 

jaree

Member
That is incorrect. No need to obfuscate the issue.
Leica is always perfect and Lloyd is always wrong. The pundits at L-forum dismissed his earlier reports on this issue as crap and are now blaming him for not using the right terminology. The point is that there are "Leica Consultants" as you said and then there are a few (maybe 2 globally) who actually are capable of designing and executing rigorous tests to prove their point. Not withstanding his premature conclusions about the Q, Lloyd knows how to test this stuff and sometimes it is hard for brand X fans to see the light.
 

jaree

Member
After a certain point, products don't mature without customers. In IBM, we used to say that an operating system takes seven years to become solid and reliable, and that has been found true about a dozen times. So I look forward to seeing what's new, and am happy to help find out what needs fine-tuning. None of the problems reported to date are keeping me from enjoying the SL, and I have quite a few suggestions for the fine tuning.

scott
Agree and this is why we have products with several months if not years in "beta" mode. At this stratospheric price point, are the users expected to get 100% or not? Or, should they pay 100% and get a beta product? And why does it take only one guy like Lloyd to point out these issues and Leica's own QC department cannot figure this out during testing?

In rolling out a certain custom enterprise software to thousands of users , I noticed that there was always a fixed set of key users (~ 10 out of 3,000) who always found issues in the first few days of going live that our large QA team would miss during test cycles. and no one complained during acceptance testing either. These are scenarios that one can only come up with years of experience. So we identified these PIA expert users and give them early access even before the QA starts. The defect rate has dramatically gone down - not 0%, but significantly lower. Leica can hire Lloyd and Ming to improve the final product. The cost would be much less than after the fact fixes.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Agree and this is why we have products with several months if not years in "beta" mode. At this stratospheric price point, are the users expected to get 100% or not? Or, should they pay 100% and get a beta product? And why does it take only one guy like Lloyd to point out these issues and Leica's own QC department cannot figure this out during testing?

In rolling out a certain custom enterprise software to thousands of users , I noticed that there was always a fixed set of key users (~ 10 out of 3,000) who always found issues in the first few days of going live that our large QA team would miss during test cycles. and no one complained during acceptance testing either. These are scenarios that one can only come up with years of experience. So we identified these PIA expert users and give them early access even before the QA starts. The defect rate has dramatically gone down - not 0%, but significantly lower. Leica can hire Lloyd and Ming to improve the final product. The cost would be much less than after the fact fixes.
Engineers often aren't operators. Simple as that in many cases.
 
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