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Thread: New Leica M ... ?

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    New Leica M ... ?

    Not much interest here in the new Leica M-D model, eh?

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    At the risk of roiling up the faithful, am I correct that omitting the LCD costs 1500 dollars more?
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Less is more, right ?
    Bart ...
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    Less is more, right ?
    Or maybe for some " More is less" (Therefore they opt for less)

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    Last edited by D&A; 28th April 2016 at 13:30.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Not much interest here in the new Leica M-D model, eh?
    Can I have first claim for; less than zero?

    .............. Chris
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    A surprise in every image.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I remember few months ago, an used M60 body only was sold for around $6500. That's something to think about... but as usual, I'll have to wait for it in the second-hand market to be affordable. I'm holding off any new purchase until after this year's photokina.
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    Re: New Leica M ..

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris C View Post
    Can I have first claim for; less than zero?

    .............. Chris
    ....only if it has no view finder as well! Wait, that would cost $1500 more, right?

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I can't help but think that someone will be pissed when the rangefinder eventually needs recalibration and they don't realize until after they shot a set of pics. I don't get the fascination with no LCD or modern features like live view but I guess the camera isn't made for me.
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    As I figured, no interest from the techno-oriented crowd in this forum. Such it is.

    The Leica M-D typ 262 is the Leica M I would have purchased in an instant if they'd offered it instead of the Leica M Edition 60, and if I didn't now have the Leica M-P typ 240. It is the first digital camera with the simplicity of my favorite M6 from many years back.

    If I were buying now (meaning, if I didn't already have the M-P), I would choose the M-D for the lack of control clutter. There's more room for my fingers to hold and work the camera without hitting buttons and such, which is what I like about the M4-2 as well. I hardly ever use anything on the M-P anymore other than my favorite 35mm and 75mm lenses, and now occasionally the WATE when I'm in a wide-angle frame of mind, and only use the EVF when I want to be a little more precise about framing with the WATE.

    But I have the M-P and I can't rationalize spending money on another M since I don't mind the M-P's buttons and controls all that much.

    I hope the M-D does well in the market and motivates Leica to keep producing cameras like this. It's not a camera for everyone, or even many, but for those of us who value simple cameras it is a significant piece.
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I'd buy it, eventually. It just sucks that you know it's near the end of the line for this round of sensor and tech. I wish that for the next iteration, Leica would offer all models together: regular (m240), P-series (m-p), photo-only (m262), and D-series (m-d). Let people choose what they'll buy at the start of the life cycle. If they do that, then I would give M-D a shot.
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    My dream camera. Period. Concentrate on what I do, not on what I did. I know, I know... I can always switch off whatever I don't need. Unfortunately, it isn't that simple. It's psychology. Every option that is there is a potential distraction. Should I do video of this? Should I check the exposure of the last frame? Was that one sharp? Am I sure that I got the optimal face expression?

    I used an OM-1 as my main camera for 30 years, the last ten shooting slow film exclusively (and assorted OM-10s as backup, they tended to fall apart as opposed to the OM-1), and I never missed any option that the OM-1 didn't have. Simplification makes me concentrate better on photography. Were some of my photos out of focus? Yup. Did I have motion blur when I shouldn't? Yup, particularly when shooting ISO 50 film at night. Would I have had more keepers if I had AF and ISO one million? Possible, but I tend to enjoy the photos that I did get, not the ones I missed (there's one exception, but that isn't camera related).

    Unfortunately, I don't know if I'll ever be able to afford the M-D, but I'll have a look at finances again in a couple of years. I would need a lens too; the APO-Summicron 50mm would be nice. Fortunately, I have more cameras than I'll be able to wear out in a lifetime anyway, so this isn't really important. It would be nice though.
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    If only they had fitted it with an adjustable diopter.
    Less is more, but sometimes more is functional too ...
    Bart ...
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knorp View Post
    If only they had fitted it with an adjustable diopter.
    Less is more, but sometimes more is functional too ...
    While that would indeed be convenient, this is clearly a single user camera, so I would do fine with a correction lens. Non-enthusiasts mostly won't be able to focus it properly anyway, and many young people won't even figure out what the viewfinder is for

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Using it this way pretty much 100% of time for many years (with cameras before oly too). Don't show it to Leica.
    Less buttons would be cool with me though.

    Also, there is always duct tape over the screen

    Don't show it to Leica by Oleg Shpak, on Flickr
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by olegkin View Post
    Using it this way pretty much 100% of time for many years (with cameras before oly too). Don't show it to Leica.
    Less buttons would be cool with me though.

    Also, there is always duct tape over the screen

    Don't show it to Leica by Oleg Shpak, on Flickr
    One of the reasons why I liked my Panasonic cameras so much.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    And another...

    Steve
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    An Epson with live view would make that swivel lcd a lot more useful!

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    My dream camera. Period. Concentrate on what I do, not on what I did. ...

    ... I have more cameras than I'll be able to wear out in a lifetime anyway, so this isn't really important. It would be nice though.
    What makes me happy: I read the entire M-D instruction manual in less than 15 minutes, and could have figured out how to use every function of the camera without ever opening it except, maybe, for setting the date and time.

    As I said before, if I didn't already have the M-P, I'd have ordered the M-D already. Since I'm content with the M-P already, the only 'excuse' that will land an M-D into my camera cabinet is that some unexpected windfall comes my way and I want one of these more than anything else. It would be a pure luxury—an unnecessary, frivolous purchase (kind of like the Nikon F6 last year was...) to celebrate the joy of living. :-)

    G

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I had no idea that achieving simplicity was so complicated and expensive.


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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4season View Post
    I had no idea that achieving simplicity was so complicated and expensive.
    1. The people at Leica knows that users are willing to pay a premium for they cameras. That has been proven a zillion times. Why sell it cheaply when they can make a healthy profit on each body?

    2. Leica probably doesn't have the capacity to make these in large numbers anyway, and the market is limited. Even if many would have liked to buy this, Leica lenses are expensive, even used ones.

    3. In this hi-tech world, making a different body is cheap, while making electronics in small numbers is very expensive. Look what Nikon did with the Df; took a D610 chassis with D610 electronics and added some retro body panels and a D4 sensor. The result is rather nice, but it makes the F4 look like a Barbie-cam. Still, the price at launch was close to half of what this rather unique camera costs.

    If Olympus made a digital OM-2, the price would probably have been lower than this, but not really cheap. I do have a lot of OM glass though, so for me it would be much cheaper. One can always hope

    Edit: When I got my OM-1 in 1974, the price was around NOK 2,000 or nearly USD 700. 700 1974 dollars is the equivalent of 3,600 2016 dollars. The Leica M3 was only USD 270 in 1960, which convert to around USD 2,200 in 2016. Remember though that Leica made more than 200,000 M3. The M-D is a niche camera and I'd be surprised if more than 10,000 copies are made. The numbers will probably be much lower.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    They won't ever release all variations at once; releasing them incrementally allows them to extend the life of a sensor without much additional engineering, and sell multiple bodies to the same buyers.

    This all started with the Monochrom...nice way to sell old tech twice to the same customers.
    Last edited by monza; 30th April 2016 at 08:23.
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    ... I want one of these more than anything else. It would be a pure luxury ...
    Indeed so. When I saw the M60 I thought, aha, we're getting somewhere but why make it a special one off?

    I want one too, although I suspect it's not a completed project ...

    The quieter shutter cocking mechanism is also a step in the right direction.

    Elsewhere on this forum I see someone commented on the fact that despite not having an LCD (and therewith all the accompanying clutter inside) it was still the same thickness and not more like an M6 - production cost-cutting by using the same shell?

    So, Meine Damen und Herren at Leica, the next step would be to bring back the cocking lever ŕ la Epson RD, use a slimmer body shell and couple it with the next generation sensors. I say this in plural because naturally there would have to be a Monochrom version to put the icing on the cake, n'est ce pas?

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bipbip View Post
    Elsewhere on this forum I see someone commented on the fact that despite not having an LCD (and therewith all the accompanying clutter inside) it was still the same thickness and not more like an M6 - production cost-cutting by using the same shell?

    So, Meine Damen und Herren at Leica, the next step would be to bring back the cocking lever ŕ la Epson RD, use a slimmer body shell and couple it with the next generation sensors. I say this in plural because naturally there would have to be a Monochrom version to put the icing on the cake, n'est ce pas?

    No doubt it makes sense for them to use as many of the same parts and tooling as on existing models, that may in fact be the entire reason for this release. 95% the same components and 95% of the engineering has already been done...yet here's a new model that will generate quite a bit of revenue and actually sells for more...

    There must be a reason for the fat body of Leica digitals. Is it simply that they don't have the capability (ala Sony and others) to pack components into incredibly small spaces? I mean, if Leica built a smartphone it might be the size of a phone book.
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I don't understand the "last generation sensor" hysteria. A friend of mine gave me his Olympus 7070 last week. It's a camera that was launched in January 2005. I took it out for a spin today. The sensor is 1/1.8" and more than 10 years old. Except for the slowness of the camera, it's very usable and renders beautiful images. Next year, all sensors that were sold this year are ancient stuff.

    Olympus 7070 @ ISO 80, 5.7mm and f/2.8. Jpeg from camera


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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I've tried to come up with an M-D comment that doesn't begin with "Why would anyone...," but I've failed.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    I mean, if Leica built a smartphone it might be the size of a phone book.
    Most likely!
    Yet they'd still price it way above any other - just because you don't need to add all your contacts; they're in there somewhere!

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't understand the "last generation sensor" hysteria.
    'Hysteria' is rather hyberbolic.

    The M240 was announced 3 1/2 years ago, that's kinda old tech when the price is several grand.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    'Hysteria' is rather hyberbolic.

    The M240 was announced 3 1/2 years ago, that's kinda old tech when the price is several grand.
    I doubt that it matters much for the target group for this camera. Most of them will be upgrading from Tri-X
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I doubt that it matters much for the target group for this camera. Most of them will be upgrading from Tri-X

    Most will be placing their M-D on the shelf right next to their other CMOSIS sensor camera, underneath their doctor of dentistry diploma.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Most will be placing their M-D on the shelf right next to their other CMOSIS sensor camera, underneath their doctor of dentistry diploma.
    You insult my father, who loved Leicas and taught me photography.

    Leica could not make the body of the M-D any thinner without having to create yet another, likely smaller capacity, battery and charger. Having one battery type for all typ 240, 246, and 262 cameras (M, M-P, M-D, ME60, etc) is far more than just a cost savings for Leica themselves ... It's in the users' best interest too. One good battery and charger through a series of cameras means not having to buy and manage multiple batteries and chargers whenever you own more than one model and also means a longer potential availability lifespan for the battery after production has ceased.

    I don't mind the size of the typ 240/246/262 body. It fits my hands and grip well. The M-D's lack of buttons and LCD are a bigger draw to me as there's more gripping space and less to hit accidentally when using the camera.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    ... Having one battery type for all typ 240, 246, and 262 cameras (M, M-P, M-D, ME60, etc) is far more than just a cost savings for Leica themselves ...
    Good point.
    However, (there had to be a 'however' coming along) I'd rather a second battery charger than an unnecessarily thicker and heavier camera when the size of the M6 was perfect.
    I use the Sony a6000 and also an RX1RII; they have different batteries and the one on the latter gives up after less than 200 shots. I don't mind at all, carrying three extra little batteries in my pocket for this camera is no bother and neither would it pose a problem for me with the as yet unreleased Leica.
    Actually it brings a smile to many faces when not so long ago they remember having to stop shooting after every 36 shots ...

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    I don't understand the "last generation sensor" hysteria.
    Oh yes you do! ISO 80 eh? I loved my Konica/Minolta A2 also but it was useless above ISO 80 ...

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bipbip View Post
    Good point.
    However, (there had to be a 'however' coming along) I'd rather a second battery charger than an unnecessarily thicker and heavier camera when the size of the M6 was perfect.
    I use the Sony a6000 and also an RX1RII; they have different batteries and the one on the latter gives up after less than 200 shots. I don't mind at all, carrying three extra little batteries in my pocket for this camera is no bother and neither would it pose a problem for me with the as yet unreleased Leica.
    Actually it brings a smile to many faces when not so long ago they remember having to stop shooting after every 36 shots ...
    Personally, I really hate carrying multiple different batteries and chargers. Bad enough I have to carry chargers for cell phone and tablet in addition to camera charger. In fact, I won't: when I've had the choice to do so, at least one of those cameras just stayed home.

    The battery introduced with the M typ 240 and used in all subsequent Ms has a great capacity and is often good for 900-1000 shots—this is great. I absolutely despised the necessity of carrying four batteries when I had the A7, and then having to charge all of them for the next day's shooting. It meant I usually needed to carry two chargers as well.

    I suspect there will never be a Leica M digital camera as thin as an M6 without changing the shape of the front of the camera. A sensor stack is much thicker than film and pressure plate, there's so little space behind the sensor stack that the couple mm gained by removing the LCD don't account for much, and the lens register cannot change (unless you want to toss compatibility with all existing M lenses out the window). So unless you put the lens mount on a pedestal (and then completely re-engineer how the rangefinder works!), it just isn't going to happen, period.

    I suspect that if you want a Leica M compatible with existing lenses and styled like the classic M line has been, the current body's form factor is as near to what's going to be its size as Leica is going to manage. It was already very tough to make a digital RF compatible with the M mount lenses that meets the imaging standards, and I'm sure no one wants to degrade that.

    As I said before, I like the M-P just as it is, and would love an M-D as well. I also like my M4-2. Funny thing is that when I first pick up the M4-2 after using the M-P for a bit, I find it a bit thin and cramped...

    Our minds and hands are much more adaptable and flexible than any camera can be.

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 30th April 2016 at 13:52.
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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    You insult my father, who loved Leicas and taught me photography.
    Just simple humor. Offense wasn't given so please don't take it.

    Leica could not make the body of the M-D any thinner without having to create yet another, likely smaller capacity, battery and charger. Having one battery type for all typ 240, 246, and 262 cameras (M, M-P, M-D, ME60, etc) is far more than just a cost savings for Leica themselves ...
    It most certainly makes sense for Leica to have the same battery across the line, although I'm rather doubtful that is the reason why this series of camera is this size. If there is indeed a technical reason why they could not engineer them to be the same 'thickness' as a film M, I'm very curious to know what that reason is. Even the M9 is a full 5mm more svelte, according to camerasize.com. My guess is that they don't have the engineering and/or manufacturing expertise to do so, or chose not to do so, to make it easier to repair, or for cost reasons or perhaps all of the above.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    Just simple humor. Offense wasn't given so please don't take it.



    It most certainly makes sense for Leica to have the same battery across the line, although I'm rather doubtful that is the reason why this series of camera is this size. If there is indeed a technical reason why they could not engineer them to be the same 'thickness' as a film M, I'm very curious to know what that reason is. Even the M9 is a full 5mm more svelte, according to camerasize.com. My guess is that they don't have the engineering and/or manufacturing expertise to do so, or chose not to do so, to make it easier to repair, or for cost reasons or perhaps all of the above.
    I am sure Leica could design it slimmer but than it would not be just a modification of the M240 but a different camera and that would increase the cost/price and decrease the profit margin. So customers would have to pay more while Leica would earn less.

    You ask for the reason - I believe it is an economic reason (which makes sense IMO). Specially since the number of people who will buy this camera is limited anyways.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I am sure Leica could design it slimmer but than it would not be just a modification of the M240 but a different camera and that would increase the cost/price and decrease the profit margin. So customers would have to pay more while Leica would earn less.

    You ask for the reason - I believe it is an economic reason (which makes sense IMO). Specially since the number of people who will buy this camera is limited anyways.
    The question is why is the entire series is the size that it is, not just the M-D. I don't expect them to slim down just the M-D when one of the primary reasons for the M-D is to use as many existing parts as possible.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    ...
    Even the M9 is a full 5mm more svelte, according to camerasize.com.
    ...
    They have incorrect figures.

    Measure the front to back dimensions of the M typ 240 baseplate and an M9's. The M typ 240 is slightly less than 1mm thicker, and that is due to a thicker, stronger baseplate and lower body structure (with a stronger tripod mount, I might add).

    I know this for a fact from measuring them both and also from noting that the M typ 240 fit perfectly in my A&A M9 half case other than for the position of control cutouts. IN the hand, the M typ 240's redesigned four-way control/ok button/thumbrest with control dial makes the body thinner and more 'svelte' than the M9.

    G

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The question is why is the entire series is the size that it is, not just the M-D. I don't expect them to slim down just the M-D when one of the primary reasons for the M-D is to use as many existing parts as possible.
    As I said before: "... there will never be a Leica M digital camera as thin as an M6 without changing the shape of the front of the camera. A sensor stack is much thicker than film and pressure plate, there's so little space behind the sensor stack that the couple mm gained by removing the LCD don't account for much, and the lens register cannot change (unless you want to toss compatibility with all existing M lenses out the window). So unless you put the lens mount on a pedestal (and then completely re-engineer how the rangefinder works!), it just isn't going to happen, period."

    G

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    They have incorrect figures.
    Wouldn't be the first time.

    I measured an M3 baseplate, and one of the prototype M-Mate baseplates for M8/M9 that I designed for Luigi.

    Here is a comparison. 36.73mm vs 32.31mm.

    4.42mm doesn't sound like a lot, but it ends up contributing to a significantly greater volume.



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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I agree with regards to thickness. They don't do enough volume to justify the expense of sensor assembly size reduction...

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I love the look and the concept of the new lcd-less M. I do not like at all the fat body compared to film Leicas. And if it would mean a differently shaped and sized battery to make it slimer, I would not mind. Along with the price, this is going to be the deal breaker for me.
    It does not help this is basically to help selling the parts of the present soon legacy M line, rather than coming alongside with an to be expected new model later this year.
    So - would I be really tempted with a all new slimer body with a new sensor, lighter body and maybe even some WLAN functionality, intelligently implemented? Very much so.

    Ivo

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by monza View Post
    The question is why is the entire series is the size that it is, not just the M-D. I don't expect them to slim down just the M-D when one of the primary reasons for the M-D is to use as many existing parts as possible.
    The M8 has been allready slightly heavier than film Ms, and I assume Leicas was forced to do so to pack everything inside.
    The M type 240 has a larger battery, a bigger display and is weather sealed.
    And yes, I also would prefer a slimmer version.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    The M8 has been allready slightly heavier than film Ms, and I assume Leicas was forced to do so to pack everything inside.
    The M type 240 has a larger battery, a bigger display and is weather sealed.
    And yes, I also would prefer a slimmer version.
    Slimmer? ... or lighter?

    Far as I've measured, M8, M9, M typ 240, etc, are all about the same thickness (within a mm or so), measured at the baseplate. Lighter is more feasible than slimmer, as seen by the M typ 262 with its aluminum top plate.

    Slimmer is much more difficult to achieve. I'm sure Leica would have done that if they could.

    G

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post

    As I said before: "... there will never be a Leica M digital camera as thin as an M6 without changing the shape of the front of the camera. A sensor stack is much thicker than film and pressure plate, there's so little space behind the sensor stack that the couple mm gained by removing the LCD don't account for much, and the lens register cannot change (unless you want to toss compatibility with all existing M lenses out the window). So unless you put the lens mount on a pedestal (and then completely re-engineer how the rangefinder works!), it just isn't going to happen, period."

    G
    Your point about the rangefinder is very valid. Both the Q and the SL are thinner than digital Ms, so a thinner body is possible. Leica could make an interchangeable lens Q using the M bayonet on a pedestal; but for that to work they would (probably) have to ditch the rangefinder, so the resulting hybrid becomes something other than a pur sang M.
    Sláinte

    Robert.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    I do not have enough engineering understanding to judge, whether the body can or cannot be made thinner. I have, however, heard a while back that full frame digital rangefinders are not going to happen So I keep my hope for now.

    Still I do think the camera is there to exploit existing technology and already invested capital in the hope it will pay back. Nothing wrong with it. It is just that the film like purity would even better be pronounced with a slimer look.

    Ivo

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    As long as the sensor stack is thicker than film, the digital body will always be thicker than the film body if the distance from film/sensor plane to lens flange is the same. Add to that the thickness of the LCD. The fact that the lack of LCD hasn't made the M-D thinner probably just confirms that Leica doesn't expect to sell huge numbers of this camera. They needed to share parts with other family members to keep costs down.

    Comparing with Q and SL is irrelevant since the Q has a fixed lens and the SL a different lens mount with a different register.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 2nd May 2016 at 22:23.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    But also do note that some thickness is added to film cameras due to pressure plate pushing the film. Would assume that sensor stack + required electronics can be fitted in the same space as film + pressure plate..

    So removing lcd should make it possible to reduce thickness. In this case it would have needed too much re-engineering/re-tooling that it probably didn't make any sense to do so. Also it could have caused unwanted move away from M-P typ 240 towards this M-D.

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlindstrom View Post
    But also do note that some thickness is added to film cameras due to pressure plate pushing the film. Would assume that sensor stack + required electronics can be fitted in the same space as film + pressure plate..

    So removing lcd should make it possible to reduce thickness. In this case it would have needed too much re-engineering/re-tooling that it probably didn't make any sense to do so. Also it could have caused unwanted move away from M-P typ 240 towards this M-D.
    That's incorrect. The pressure plate and film assembly is much thinner than the sensor stack.

    The LCD assembly is mounted on the outside of the body shell; removing it doesn't change the required depth of the body.


    Leica M240 body shell ... borrowed from leica-forums similar discussion.
    G

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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    That's incorrect. The pressure plate and film assembly is much thinner than the sensor stack.

    The LCD assembly is mounted on the outside of the body shell; removing it doesn't change the required depth of the body.


    Leica M240 body shell ... borrowed from leica-forums similar discussion.
    G
    I agree. It's the same situation with the Nikon F6 (which has a back LCD) compared to Nikon's digital bodies. The F6 body is considerably thinner:


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    Re: New Leica M ... ?

    We all tend to gain a little girth as we get older.
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