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Leica SL and the Sony A7rii

doug

Well-known member
I'm just not sure from your description how you would prefer the camera to operate.
In manual exposure mode I want to see the viewfinder get brighter or darker when I change shutter speed, aperture or ISO. I want to see how these actions affect the exposure of my photograph. When I shift the camera so the metering point is on a brighter or darker tone I don't want the viewfinder brightness to change. I don't want to push a button before every single exposure to see the effect. I want this behavior to stay on.

UPDATE: I just got a call from Leica's SL specialist in NJ asking me to clarify, and he said it sounds like it shouldn't be a problem to incorporate in future firmware. There is hope!

:) :) :)
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
In manual exposure mode I want to see the viewfinder get brighter or darker when I change shutter speed, aperture or ISO. I want to see how these actions affect the exposure of my photograph. When I shift the camera so the metering point is on a brighter or darker tone I don't want the viewfinder brightness to change. I don't want to push a button before every single exposure to see the effect. I want this behavior to stay on.

UPDATE: I just got a call from Leica's SL specialist in NJ asking me to clarify, and he said it sounds like it shouldn't be a problem to incorporate in future firmware. There is hope!

:) :) :)
I follow your journey with Leica stuff since a while. You want to stay Leica because of the 280/4 and your previous experience with the DMR. You loved your DMR. My advice to you, not the OP, ditch it all. For your applications, critter shooting, Just please you with a D500 and a ... Micro-NIKKOR 200mm f/4D IF-ED or a 300 PF. You'll be far more happy with simple logic ergonomic, perfect IQ, top notch AF. You'll be always in the wild with such gear.
 

doug

Well-known member
I follow your journey with Leica stuff since a while. You want to stay Leica because of the 280/4 and your previous experience with the DMR. You loved your DMR. My advice to you, not the OP, ditch it all. For your applications, critter shooting, Just please you with a D500 and a ... Micro-NIKKOR 200mm f/4D IF-ED or a 300 PF. You'll be far more happy with simple logic ergonomic, perfect IQ, top notch AF. You'll be always in the wild with such gear.
The 300 PF is certainly interesting but having used mirrorless cameras for nearly 2 years now there's no way I'd take a step backward to a DSLR's viewfinder.
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
The 300 PF is certainly interesting but having used mirrorless cameras for nearly 2 years now there's no way I'd take a step backward to a DSLR's viewfinder.
Ha ok you want the EVF. There is not that much option then, have you tried the XT2 and the mighty 100-400 ?

EDIT : Or Nikon will bring ff EVF for their 100th anniversary ... :)
 

doug

Well-known member
Ha ok you want the EVF. There is not that much option then, have you tried the XT2 and the mighty 100-400 ?

EDIT : Or Nikon will bring ff EVF for their 100th anniversary ... :)
Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm quite capable of making my own choices.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
In manual exposure mode I want to see the viewfinder get brighter or darker when I change shutter speed, aperture or ISO. I want to see how these actions affect the exposure of my photograph. When I shift the camera so the metering point is on a brighter or darker tone I don't want the viewfinder brightness to change. I don't want to push a button before every single exposure to see the effect. I want this behavior to stay on.
Okay, I understand now.

In M mode with firmware 2.2, exposure simulation doesn't exit when I half-press the shutter release, enable/disable focus magnification, or use the joystick button to force AF (with MF enabled). Exposure simulation exits only when the exposure is made. So it should be a relatively simple matter to add an option (fw 2.2.1?) such that it is locked on if so desired. Of course, it will slow down the operation of the viewfinder display in low light, but that's a choice you have to make.

I recall that the Panasonic Lumix G1 had similar behavior to the SL when in manual focus mode. There were clearly two camps ... those like me who found that it forced the viewfinder brightness to stay constant and those like you that wanted the WYSIWYG display. I think they put an option into the firmware at a later time to support both ways of working.

UPDATE: I just got a call from Leica's SL specialist in NJ asking me to clarify, and he said it sounds like it shouldn't be a problem to incorporate in future firmware. There is hope!

:) :) :)
Good to hear someone at Leica USA has responded. It will be interesting to see what develops from that contact.

G
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Doug,

Have followed your postings for a long time and I am impressed by your images.

I am a bit surprised you adjusted to EVF. How do you focus on birds in flight? I presume that you use manual focus.

I am very seldom shooting birds in flight, but I don't feel focusing manually without magnification works for me.

Best regards
Erik



The 300 PF is certainly interesting but having used mirrorless cameras for nearly 2 years now there's no way I'd take a step backward to a DSLR's viewfinder.
 
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Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm quite capable of making my own choices.
C'mon, don't take it this way please, I'm not here to force you. We are between grown photographers and my advice is that none of those cameras are good for the photography you do and I think most of the grown photographers over here think the same.

More than one year ago you complained that the SL evf is not fitted to your style or taste. Only today (I think) I understood your problem. Do you think Leica will fix it for you ? I do not think so. Meanwhile, I prefer seeing you posting your beautiful photos of birds rather than complaining about a marginal "problem".

The SL + R lense + adapter = you loose weather sealing. The SL + 90-280 APO reach over 3 Kg of gear... (and reach outrageous price), AF isn't made for Bif or animal chasing at all.

SL or A7 are good cameras but simply not made for your application.

So I tell you, if you want EVF, AF closer to DLRS, 24 mpx and good lenses, the XT2 is best choice for now. Otherwise, like every serious bird or critter shooter on this planet, use Nikon or Canon.

I simply can't understand at ALL ppl who sacrifice success rate, practicality, professional service, money economy, probably IQ and especially FUN just to stay in a brand (or a forum section).
 

doug

Well-known member
C'mon, don't take it this way please, I'm not here to force you. We are between grown photographers and my advice is that none of those cameras are good for the photography you do and I think most of the grown photographers over here think the same.

More than one year ago you complained that the SL evf is not fitted to your style or taste. Only today (I think) I understood your problem. Do you think Leica will fix it for you ? I do not think so. Meanwhile, I prefer seeing you posting your beautiful photos of birds rather than complaining about a marginal "problem".

The SL + R lense + adapter = you loose weather sealing. The SL + 90-280 APO reach over 3 Kg of gear... (and reach outrageous price), AF isn't made for Bif or animal chasing at all.

SL or A7 are good cameras but simply not made for your application.

So I tell you, if you want EVF, AF closer to DLRS, 24 mpx and good lenses, the XT2 is best choice for now. Otherwise, like every serious bird or critter shooter on this planet, use Nikon or Canon.

I simply can't understand at ALL ppl who sacrifice success rate, practicality, professional service, money economy, probably IQ and especially FUN just to stay in a brand (or a forum section).
It's really this simple:

Leica called me and asked about the problem I'm having with the viewfinder and it seems like they're at least going to look into it. It's not a "marginal" problem to me. If they make it work like the Sony a7II viewfinder i'll be delighted.

Also I'm not interested in chasing what "every other serious bird or critter shooter" is doing. I have my own goals, my own path to follow. When I want equipment advice, I'll ask for it.
 

Hulyss Bowman

Active member
Then I hope Leica can fix it and that you are not alone relating this problem. IF you are alone relating this problem and they fix it ... then you'll became a legend :D
 

doug

Well-known member
The thing I dislike most about Leica (any of the Leica models) is other people's reactions to the brand. Some worship the brand, some assume that people using a Leica are fanboys. After nearly 50 years using cameras (Nikon, Canon, Leica and Sony) I've got a pretty good idea what I want from a camera and what I want to do with a camera.

I'll ask for advice when I want it. I'll give advice when asked and not before. Please extend the same courtesy to me, and don't assume that I'm a fanboy blinded to anything else.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The thing I dislike most about Leica (any of the Leica models) is other people's reactions to the brand. Some worship the brand, some assume that people using a Leica are fanboys. After nearly 50 years using cameras (Nikon, Canon, Leica and Sony) I've got a pretty good idea what I want from a camera and what I want to do with a camera.

I'll ask for advice when I want it. I'll give advice when asked and not before. Please extend the same courtesy to me, and don't assume that I'm a fanboy blinded to anything else.
Couldn't agree more.

G
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Then I hope Leica can fix it and that you are not alone relating this problem. IF you are alone relating this problem and they fix it ... then you'll became a legend :D
In my experience, Leica has been extremely responsive. I had a very isolated problem with the GPS in my Leica S006, that we finally traced down to me being near the arctic circle, which slowed down the camera from finding the satellites, which in turn delayed the shutter release when initially turning on the camera. I told them about it, and I think only one other person had told them (and he came here to Iceland as well to shoot, which is when he encountered the issue. Leica dealt with me directly and created a custom firmware and had me test it. I think they rolled it into the next upgrade for the general customer base, but I cannot, for example, imagine much larger brands to sit down and figure out an issue that was affecting only one customer. This is one of the instances where the smaller scale helps you. In any case, I think they will sort this out for Doug...it is a very reasonable concern, it seems like it would be a simple fix, and the SL is a current camera which they regard as pro level, so I would bet they will have someone work it out. I will say, however, that talking directly with Germany has been more productive for me than dealing with dealers. Tony Rose would be an exception to this (David Farkas as well!), but in general, talking directly to Leica CS in Germany is a good way to get things done. After all, they only need to walk down the hall to get someone to tweak firmware, while the local service centers will have to communicate to the factory via email or phone etc.


As for the brand issues with Leica -- agreed. The worship and the flaming are both tiresome. They make good cameras. They are expensive and often slower to update than other companies. But they also have much better handling and design than many other brands, and of course the lenses are terrific. Sometimes the cameras have more problems than other makers, but they are also very good about fixing things that they view as their fault, even out of warranty. Pay your money and make your choice.
 

pegelli

Well-known member
The worship and the flaming are both tiresome.
Yup, couldn't agree more. Such a pity that in some cases people's toes are longer then arms can reach ;) (on both sides of the argument).
The start of my photography "career" (pure hobby) from 1970 until 1986 was 100% Leica but a theft and insufficient insurance made me move to a lower cost brand. But I still use some of the stuff I acquired in my early days and it's a joy to use and performs marvelously, even today! I'm glad I never sold any of it. I don't want to spend the amount of money they are asking for new Leica equipment today, but that's a pure personal choice people need to make, no right or wrong in my mind.

To the OP, my personal opinion is that just upgrading for the second SD card slot alone wouldn't be enough, but if you can (and want to) afford/justify a Leica SL and some of the quality glass that goes with it there's other reasons to do so. Question to ask is if it will make your photo's better then with your current kit, and that's not just specs but also the "energy" you get from buying the equipment that you know deep in your heart you would like to use.
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
Yup, couldn't agree more. Such a pity that in some cases people's toes are longer then arms can reach ;) (on both sides of the argument).
The start of my photography "career" (pure hobby) from 1970 until 1986 was 100% Leica but a theft and insufficient insurance made me move to a lower cost brand. But I still use some of the stuff I acquired in my early days and it's a joy to use and performs marvelously, even today! I'm glad I never sold any of it. I don't want to spend the amount of money they are asking for new Leica equipment today, but that's a pure personal choice people need to make, no right or wrong in my mind.

To the OP, my personal opinion is that just upgrading for the second SD card slot alone wouldn't be enough, but if you can (and want to) afford/justify a Leica SL and some of the quality glass that goes with it there's other reasons to do so. Question to ask is if it will make your photo's better then with your current kit, and that's not just specs but also the "energy" you get from buying the equipment that you know deep in your heart you would like to use.
Very good points. Having 2 SD cards was something I really only thought about as my wedding/portrait clients increased. But you're right, it's not enough to justify the switch. Perhaps the SL2 will address some current issues and maybe by then they'll be more native primes. The A7r2 is an outstanding camera and I like the UI. Couple that with Batis and Zeiss lenses and it's quite the complete system for stills. I also like the look of Leica's Maestro sensors and soon there will be an announcement from Leica, so who knows?
 

doug

Well-known member
Hi Doug,

Have followed your postings for a long time and I am impressed by your images.

I am a bit surprised you adjusted to EVF. How do you focus on birds in flight? I presume that you use manual focus.

I am very seldom shooting birds in flight, but I don't feel focusing manually without magnification works for me.

Best regards
Erik
Peaking works quite well






And the shimmering effect I see in the a7II's viewfinder when details like feathers are in focus helps too







There are several advantages of the EVF I'm come to appreciate. Magnification at the touch of a button while using the eye-level viewfinder is one advantage, and the ability to preview exposure with a live histogram is another, primarily because I use manual exposure control nearly 100% of the time. Exposure preview shows me in real time without taking my eye off the subject if my photo will be over-exposed or under-exposed, for example. It also allows me to ignore clipping warnings (or blocked shadows) if the area getting clipped isn't important to me.

I see it as another dimension of WYSIWYG. Consider the difference between a viewfinder camera and an SLR: the SLR's viewfinder is closer to a WYSIWYG view due to the lack of parallax error, the ability to see the entire plane of focus and the degree objects outside the plane of focus are defocussed. The difference between the SLR viewfinder and the EVF is an additional dimension of WYSIWYG: exposure. Having used a good EVF I'd be hampered by losing the exposure dimension if I were to switch back to an SLR viewfinder. Which explains why the Leica SL's exposure preview mode is a big deal to me.

Acknowledging the SLR's light metering capabilities, the SLR's light meter can't tell me the exposure state of the entire picture area at a glance any more than a rangefinder's focussing patch can show me the entire plane of focus or how far out of focus any foreground or background objects are.
 
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ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Doug,

Thanks for sharing and for taking time to answer my questions.

Best regards
Erik

Peaking works quite well


And the shimmering effect I see in the a7II's viewfinder when details like feathers are in focus helps too


There are several advantages of the EVF I'm come to appreciate. Magnification at the touch of a button while using the eye-level viewfinder is one advantage, and the ability to preview exposure with a live histogram is another, primarily because I use manual exposure control nearly 100% of the time. Exposure preview shows me in real time without taking my eye off the subject if my photo will be over-exposed or under-exposed, for example. It also allows me to ignore clipping warnings (or blocked shadows) if the area getting clipped isn't important to me.

I see it as another dimension of WYSIWYG. Consider the difference between a viewfinder camera and an SLR: the SLR's viewfinder is closer to a WYSIWYG view due to the lack of parallax error, the ability to see the entire plane of focus and the degree objects outside the plane of focus are defocussed. The difference between the SLR viewfinder and the EVF is an additional dimension of WYSIWYG: exposure. Having used a good EVF I'd be hampered by losing the exposure dimension if I were to switch back to an SLR viewfinder. Which explains why the Leica SL's exposure preview mode is a big deal to me.

Acknowledging the SLR's light metering capabilities, the SLR's light meter can't tell me the exposure state of the entire picture area at a glance any more than a rangefinder's focussing patch can show me the entire plane of focus or how far out of focus any foreground or background objects are.
 

waterden

New member
Re Doug Herr's issue with exposure preview disappearing after shutter activation, does this element of Firmware 3.0 resolve it?

Exposure preview in M-Mode improved for continuous preview
 

helged

New member
Re Doug Herr's issue with exposure preview disappearing after shutter activation, does this element of Firmware 3.0 resolve it?

Exposure preview in M-Mode improved for continuous preview
Yes, Doug's preview issue is resolved with FW3.0.
 
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