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What the S? and why I still like it.

atanabe

Member
This post is about my long term relationship with my S2. Like any relationship, it has had it's ups and downs, with many compromises. I have had my S2 since 2010 as a replacement for two systems, Nikon D700 and Hasselblad CFV. I felt that several factors weighed in the favor of the S as it was weather sealed and had the "medium format" sized sensor that set the Hasselblad apart from the FF. My reasoning was that the size of the Nikon lenses and weight of the Hasselblad equaled out with the Leica S in terms of form factor and carriability - is that a word? My choices at the time would be a move to the Hasselblad H4D40 of a Phase system which were both large and not weather sealed. Weather sealing is important to me as I lived in Seattle at the time.

Lenses were few and far between and I waited patiently for the release of the 180 and 30 to add to my 70. As I patiently waited I got to really appreciate the image quality, my main criteria, was by far the best that I have experienced from a digital camera. I preface that because I still feel there is no substitute for big 8x10 chromes! But during my wait for the added lenses, I experienced a cracked sensor back to Solms (at the time) for a new sensor. The camera came back within two weeks and I was back to shooting again. Not long after my camera came back, a new 180 arrived but not without drama, the camera was exposing 1.5 stops over which had nothing to do with the at the time, sticky aperture blades issue, as this happened wide open, in manual exposure mode. This time I had to send both camera and lens back to Solms but not before a loaner S and 180 arrived from NJ - thank you. You would think by this time that I should have just bailed and got back to Nikon/Hasselblad but the image quality was so good and the options too costly or the lenses not of the same caliber (this was before Zeiss Otus). Once you start shooting a larger format, it is harder to go back to even a FF 35, which is true in both film and digital.

As an early adopter, I was hopeful of the CS lenses that were promised as I like to use fill flash a lot. I was told that I could upgrade my standard lenses for the CS lenses for the difference in price which at the time was ~$1000. With registration certificates in hand (from the Leica web site) I was hopeful to get my standard lenses upgraded to CS. Balloon burst when Leica said that the date of purchase must fall within this time period and my 30 did not qualify for the upgrade, certificates were not valid. A big cold slap in the face and I thought of dumping the system and moving to a FF high res solution. Then I looked at the images and reversed my decision, the images, it is all about the images. Recently with the abundance of used S lenses I was able to secure CS lenses for about the same or less than the original program offer.

AF motor failures, breath on the lens and the motor fails, started around the time of the 007 introduction and faster AF. It affected all of my lenses at one time or another, never kept me from shooting as the focus ring was always free and I prefer to manually focus anyway. But the big change in all the years of repairs was the level of service. I can accept that things fail, but it is how you address the failure and this is where things have gotten bad. My 180 failed and went back for a new motor only to come back with a loose front element. It went back for six months with no word on when it will be back. Far different than getting a replacement to use in it's absence.

A new year, new MF offerings are on the horizon do I switch or do I stay? Well both new platforms are weatherproof and are compact, more so the X1D. Both are unproven territory and I do not want to be a beta tester. What I have seen and handled from the X1D is a short battery life, every time that I have gone into my dealer to shoot with the camera, the battery was dead or nearly dead. My S can go weeks without a charge I average about 2000 shots before the battery needs a charge. The GFX is still to be announced and while Fuji has great lenses and great track record it is still a new platform. The silence from Wetzlar on what lies ahead for the S and the lack of availability of the S-SL adapter could be signs that the S maybe going through a transition. The value of the S has depreciated rapidly but the images are still magical. The S is fully paid for and I know the limitations and strengths after all these years.

Like a relationship, you take the good with the bad and hopefully the equation is on the side of good. I put up with the service from Leica because I value the images I get from the system. Do I wish that the system never fail? Yes. The reality is that it has failed but more important is the support system has failed and I believe that a fix is on the way. Am I just a Leica Fanboy oblivious to all the bad things? Yes and no, I am seduced by the image quality and at the same time a realist who looks at the depreciated value of the kit. To cut my losses at this point to replace it with another digital system that will too go through the depreciation cycle is not what I would like to do at this point in time. Just like getting a divorce from a wife of 40 years for a younger model, it will cost you dearly and you don't know what you will end up with.
 

atanabe

Member
Portability.
Vivek, I agree the word portability is correct term, I just wanted to insert and maybe author a new word. Portability is the ability to carry which could mean many things to different people, sherpas are capable of carrying much greater weight than I. So a Hasselblad H6D with five lenses to them would be "portable" but a Leica M9 with five lenses to me is "carriable" :)
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Got it, Al. :)

Thanks for your thoughts and sharing your experience!:)
 

erlingmm

Active member
I recently wrote this on another thread:

Let's go back to what one might assume were some of the hypotheses by Leica when they created the S system:
- DSLR format is compact and functional. The Hblad and P1 "digital backs" are reminiscent of the film days, and are not functional in a digital world
- Let's take MF out of the studio, through DSLR form factor and weather sealing
- MF gives a new dimension to photography, but 30*45mm will suffice for most
- Let's make the best OVF ever
- Chip design is more important than megapixels, 37,5 is a good compromise (50 is more, and the chosen format of the new Sony sensors, but can someone document the advantage, please?) - not excluding that S will be 50-60 mpix in its next version
- Optics is the real differentiator, let's make the best lenses for 30*45mm available
- Let's make lenses in the true Leica tradition: Top performance at open apertures, every S lens will be a "Noctilux" at full aperture
- Let's offer leaf shutter as a option built in to the lenses
- Let's open up towards other systems' and create bridges through adapters to other lenses
- <possibly more >

In my book, they were right on all assumptions. If you want to do 100 mpix and carry a P1, feel free, but swallow and justify the cost, and carry the load.

On execution, however, I agree, it could have been better, a lot better actually, where the AF issue is the elephant in the room, hopefully to be resolved soon.

Even Ming Thein, who I know and highly respect, says after working with a 50 MP (basically same sensor size as the S) Hasselblad for almost a year: " ....frankly, I’m not even sure I want the 100MP option because it’s going to make a mess of my existing focal length selections (44x33mm vs 54x40mm makes a significant difference in angle of view for a given lens). And I’ve not had the need for more either from the client side, the print side, or even personally being able to repeatedly squeeze everything out of the 50MP sensors under all conditions – I think it may not be humanly possible to consistently handhold for critical sharpness below 1/2x. "

I think Leica has been spot on with the S all the way, they just have to fix the AF problem, and possibly up the sensor to 50 MP on the S008, mainly for marketing purposes...
 

Shashin

Well-known member
The camera does make a difference. I love using a camera I love using. While there are other cameras, they are not the same--unless you are switching from a Canon to Nikon DSLR.

But once I cannot trust my gear, the love affair does tarnish. How much of a compromise do I make to tolerate the uncertainty of the system? That is a tough question. But I have had unreliable camera systems and once I simply stop using it, I know it is time to change.

For me, the downside of both the Hasselblad and Fuji systems is the EVF. I just don't like using them. I have a Pentax 645D that I love. It makes great images and I simply like the handling of the camera. But it is big and I missed my previous love affairs--my Mamiya 6 and Horseman SW612. I decide to take a chance and move sideway and went for a Fuji X Pro2--it shoots 1:1 and 16:9. I was a bit skeptical. But I figured if I can get excellent 40" prints from it, then what more do I need? And you know what, it make really nice 40" prints. I am keeping my 645D--it is my "large-format" tripod camera. It does really nice closeup work too. But my X Pro2 has put a bit more freedom back in my hands since my Mamiya 6.

One more point I would like to add, and I know there are folks where this is not such a problem, but I get tired of systems that require so much money. I have always bought the best I could afford simply because I found you use those cameras more and longer than something less--a stop-gap camera, something to get you over the hump, but not really what you want. Fuji has packed such a great tool into a small and relatively affordable package. (Interestingly though, the X Pro2 body cost me the same as the Mamiya 6 with the 75mm standard lens.) If the camera fails, it does not seem to be a burden and certainly not an investment to repair. (But then I will probably get better service.) Push comes to shove, I can just order one from B&H.

Now I am not trying to sell you an X pro2. That is just the example of my taste in bodies ;) . I guess if I was simply leaving my significant other home because she was unreliable and giving my no joy, I might start looking somewhere else. (Just to be clear, I am still talking about cameras.) Finding the new partner is never easy. I am still learning with my new flame--or unlearning what my 645D files are compared to the X Pro2 files.

Good luck with your search. But I really understand the disappointment when something that really works for you continues to let you down.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Two issues have hurt the Leica S owners ...especially in the USA . First the AF failures which got much worse after the 007 firmware increased the auto focus speed . Second Leica NA simply lost control of their service operation .

After discussing this with my dealer we (1) tested all my Leica S lenses on a new S 007 ....2 out of 9 failed immediately (2) sent the two failed lenses to germany for repair . They came back in about 4 weeks and that included Christmas . its my understanding (no public announcement ) that Leica now has a permanent fix for the AF . Not ideal ..but something I can work with .

The IQ I get from the S is the best in my experience and unless I decide to step up to 100MP (a really really bad idea for me ) ...it will be my MF system . And I do really like the new stuff from HB and Fuji but the S is a better fit .
 

atanabe

Member
Good luck with your search. But I really understand the disappointment when something that really works for you continues to let you down.
Will, I am really not in a search for a new solution, for a while I thought I was then I came to my senses. First, if the AF fails, it is not the end of the world for me mid shoot. The camera has been reliable for me after the first teething pains. I really love the OVF and can focus quite accurately without getting retina burn from an EVF at low light levels.

I have a Q which is my walk around camera, it replaced the X1 and X2 and I get great results from that camera. You make good points that a lower priced, competent camera can be considered disposable - a sad state the world has become. Gone are the days of buying a camera, caring for it and having it last your entire career.
 

atanabe

Member
Two issues have hurt the Leica S owners ...especially in the USA . First the AF failures which got much worse after the 007 firmware increased the auto focus speed . Second Leica NA simply lost control of their service operation .

After discussing this with my dealer we (1) tested all my Leica S lenses on a new S 007 ....2 out of 9 failed immediately (2) sent the two failed lenses to germany for repair . They came back in about 4 weeks and that included Christmas . its my understanding (no public announcement ) that Leica now has a permanent fix for the AF . Not ideal ..but something I can work with .

The IQ I get from the S is the best in my experience and unless I decide to step up to 100MP (a really really bad idea for me ) ...it will be my MF system . And I do really like the new stuff from HB and Fuji but the S is a better fit .
Roger, I hope you are right about the AF motor fix! Don't know what happened to customer service in the US. Leica used to have S product specialists that would offer assistance in getting requests expedited, where did they go?
 

D&A

Well-known member
There really is no right or wrong answer as each MF system mentioned has pros & cons, advantages & disadvantages. Even the most beloved item one might own, which brings them endless joy when functioning properly, becomes tiresome when issues repeatedly crop up and its made even worse when down time due to necessary repairs results in lengthy trips to a repair center for extended periods of time. For most when encountering such situations, they eventually leave the "relationship"(speaking of camera equipment of course), regardless of how unique to them their beloved system is. It applies to the love of many other consumer related products.

The one exception may be when someone also owns other systems they enjoy using while their favorite is in the shop, so they can buy their time until their #1 camera/lens returns. If its a primarily system that one much prefers most of the time (for whatever reason), the hassle of it all is grating and frustrating and most move on from what I've seen.

The funny thing is, what many complain about the current crop of "cropped MFD cameras, whether it be the exorbitant price of one brand, the lack of performance or certain features, reliability issues, repair turn around times, etc., I have to say, the system that I find that gets less complaints about these issues than most of the others systems we are discussing is the Pentax 645 D and especially the Z. This comes from people who have actually shot with it. On paper it may not seam that way but once in use, it surprises most. Yes, it may not be the best in any one given area but it's like they say, a jack of all trades and does most everything well and gets quite close to most of the other 37-50mp MFD systems but without the headaches.

What I think stops a lot is it doesn't win any beauty contest when compared to others, and although not the heaviest of the group, is certainly hefty and boxy. It's not sexy and this alone discourages some from choosing it. The name too is not synonymous with medium format exclusively although it has a heritage. Some I've known even have stuck up their noses without even trying it. Once they do though, they are generally quite surprised. It simply works without a fuss and better and better lenses have been made available although very good legacy lenses at average 35mm lens prices abound. I would venture a guess that issues and downtime is probably near the bottom of the competition and if there is a weak point, its that their service here in the States is relegated to an independent repair facility although for more serious problems (which is rare), it can and does go bak to Japan.

In fact some time ago I compared in a controlled studio setting (and also took a few long distance shots) of the Leica S120 macro on a S006 body against the 645D and it's 120 f4 macro (wide open and stopped down), which at the time was a fraction of the Leica lens cost. In the studio, the Pentax files were almost every bit as good as the Lecia. At distance (and yes, each respective macro could be optimized at different distances, the Leica S120 was clearly better away from the center of the frame. The Pentax was very good but the Leica was superb and yes, those Leica S lenses is the primary reason to shoot the S system although Pentax's newest lenses for the 645 system can give Leica a run for its money.

I thing if anything, because of Fuji's excellent reliability and price point and feature set and a company that generally takes care of their customers, the new Fuji GFX may be the system that gives Pentax MFD the most competition. Just some food for thought and I'll end by saying one for ones own particular needs can make a valid argument for any of the 40-50mp cropped sensor medium format cameras.

Dave (D&A)
 
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algrove

Well-known member
The IQ I get from the S is the best in my experience and unless I decide to step up to 100MP (a really really bad idea for me ) ...it will be my MF system . And I do really like the new stuff from HB and Fuji but the S is a better fit .
Why "a really really bad idea for me"? You know you want one in an Alpha configuration probably.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Roger, I hope you are right about the AF motor fix! Don't know what happened to customer service in the US. Leica used to have S product specialists that would offer assistance in getting requests expedited, where did they go?
Both Roger and myself outlined some of the reasons for the relatively recent decline in Leica USA repair facility in N.J. and some of the steps being taken to rectify it. Speaking for myself, it was in confidential conversations I had. It can be found in one of the other Leica threads in the forums, but at the moment, I don't recall which one in order to post a link. Maybe Roger recalls which thread.

Dave (D&A)
 

atanabe

Member
Both Roger and myself outlined some of the reasons for the relatively recent decline in Leica USA repair facility in N.J. and some of the steps being taken to rectify it. Speaking for myself, it was in confidential conversations I had. It can be found in one of the other Leica threads in the forums, but at the moment, I don't recall which one in order to post a link. Maybe Roger recalls which thread.

Dave (D&A)
Dave, yes I read about the switch over to the SAP software and the resulting loss of data and whereabouts of equipment in repair. Still a hard pill to swallow and more so why no letter of apology for the delay in service? A little note, something, anything, "Sorry for the delay in service, we switched over to a new software system and had a horrible time. Rest assured that we are on the way to a much improved customer service experience . . ."

Basically acknowledge that a problem exists, own up to it and get on with it. Ignoring that there was any problem in the first place weakens the customer experience.
 

atanabe

Member
I thing if anything, because of Fuji's excellent reliability and price point and feature set and a company that generally takes care of their customers, the new Fuji GFX may be the system that gives Pentax MFD the most competition. Just some food for thought and I'll end by saying one for ones own particular needs can make a valid argument for any of the 40-50mp cropped sensor medium format cameras.

Dave (D&A)
Dave, at the price point, I think a lot of Nikon and Canon shooters will start to take notice.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Dave, yes I read about the switch over to the SAP software and the resulting loss of data and whereabouts of equipment in repair. Still a hard pill to swallow and more so why no letter of apology for the delay in service? A little note, something, anything, "Sorry for the delay in service, we switched over to a new software system and had a horrible time. Rest assured that we are on the way to a much improved customer service experience . . ."

Basically acknowledge that a problem exists, own up to it and get on with it. Ignoring that there was any problem in the first place weakens the customer experience.
Why no note from Leica? You know....."love means never having to say you're sorry" ..LOL! I couldn't resist!

Actually if you go back to that thread, the issues were far more involved and complicated that just the implementation of SAP software, training and a new system. There were many other interrelated issues which compounded the situation and it went on for a protracted period of time. We'll have to see how it all works out.

Dave (D&A)
 

D&A

Well-known member
Dave, at the price point, I think a lot of Nikon and Canon shooters will start to take notice.
Maybe, maybe not. Remember, the prices may be something many 35mm full frame users may find doable, but there are many applications where full frame 35mm is much more applicable. My statement was that the one company that will feel the competition for the Fuji GFX is Pentax's 645D/Z users for the reasons I mentioned previously (reliability, prices point etc.)
 

atanabe

Member
Maybe, maybe not. Remember, the prices may be something many 35mm full frame users may find doable, but there are many applications where full frame 35mm is much more applicable. My statement was that the one company that will feel the competition for the Fuji GFX is Pentax's 645D/Z users for the reasons I mentioned previously (reliability, prices point etc.)
As far as MF goes, I agree, Pentax has a target on it's back. But so does Hasselblad, the Fuji is aggressively priced. Fuji is taking advantage of the slow roll out of the X1D to take pre sales away from them. They also have the ability to produce lenses in house for faster turn around times. The world is getting very interesting
 

atanabe

Member
Why no note from Leica? You know....."love means never having to say you're sorry" ..LOL! I couldn't resist!

Actually if you go back to that thread, the issues were far more involved and complicated that just the implementation of SAP software, training and a new system. There were many other interrelated issues which compounded the situation and it went on for a protracted period of time. We'll have to see how it all works out.

Dave (D&A)
Love only goes so far :argue:

Maybe they need to go through a 12 step program, "hi my name is Leica and I am a poor communicator"
 

D&A

Well-known member
Love only goes so far :argue:

Maybe they need to go through a 12 step program, "hi my name is Leica and I am a poor communicator"
" Leica, my name is Hasselblad, nice to meet you. I've been told I have great dynamic range, how about you? Want to go out after tonights 12 stop...um I mean 12 step program is completed? We can do shots...oh I meant go out and shoot. I think we have a lot in common. I've been told by some recently that I too am a poor communicator.

Maybe we can support and help each other become more responsive to our loyal base, especially in the area of communication, which is so important. I know we have a lot to go over but we do have a long history of having a fine reputation and many are pulling for us. What do you say,"?

*** P.S.. I hope people interpret my "tongue in cheek" posting above as simply saying that these two prominent camera companies with a lengthy history in the industry have a lot of potential with their current and near future planned lineup of camera and lenses. It starts with good communication when things go awry with their customer base when one or more products or servicing of their products develops problems.

People (customers and users) appreciate hearing of their concerns, especially knowing the issues are/will be addressed. I believe it goes a long way in keeping their current users happy and prevents future purchasers from being dissuades to look elsewhere. Good communication is a relatively cheap commodity in the scheme of things and yet has tremendous value for a company.

Dave (D&A)
 
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JohnBrew

Active member
Good for you, Al. I hope you and your S continue to have pleasant times. I really liked my S006. Although I was initially put off by the weight I soon put that behind me and got on with the shooting process. Other than the occasional lockup (fixed by popping the battery) I never had any problems with my S setup, however I got the feeling I could have some down the road which would leave without the use of the camera for an extended period of time.
The pluses of the system were strong: form factor, OVF, fantastic lenses, battery life and simply awesome files.
The minuses could be scary. I won't go any further on that because it has been beat to death.
And I was disappointed with the long exposure being limited to two minutes. I looked into an S007 but found it's long exposure had been limited to one minute!
I enjoyed the camera and if Leica can figure out their problems I might even consider it again.
 
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