The GetDPI Photography Forum

Great to see you here. Join our insightful photographic forum today and start tapping into a huge wealth of photographic knowledge. Completing our simple registration process will allow you to gain access to exclusive content, add your own topics and posts, share your work and connect with other members through your own private inbox! And don’t forget to say hi!

What the S? and why I still like it.

atanabe

Member
" Leica, my name is Hasselblad, nice to meet you. I've been told I have great dynamic range, how about you? Want to go out after tonights 12 stop...um I mean 12 step program is completed? We can do shots...oh I meant go out and shoot. I think we have a lot in common. I've been told by some recently that I too am a poor communicator.

Maybe we can support and help each other become more responsive to our loyal base, especially in the area of communication, which is so important. I know we have a lot to go over but we do have a long history of having a fine reputation and many are pulling for us. What do you say,"?

*** P.S.. I hope people interpret my "tongue in cheek" posting above as simply saying that these two prominent camera companies with a lengthy history in the industry have a lot of potential with their current and near future planned lineup of camera and lenses. It starts with good communication when things go awry with their customer base when one or more products or servicing of their products develops problems.

People (customers and users) appreciate hearing of their concerns, especially knowing the issues are/will be addressed. I believe it goes a long way in keeping their current users happy and prevents future purchasers from being dissuades to look elsewhere. Good communication is a relatively cheap commodity in the scheme of things and yet has tremendous value for a company.

Dave (D&A)
Dave, communication is key, even the bearer of bad news is better than no news. With the internet, one viral thread true or not can destroy decades of well deserved reputation. When I owned digital Hasselblad products that needed repairs, turn around was within three weeks with communications at every stage of the repair. A little goes a long way.
 

vieri

Well-known member
...
And I was disappointed with the long exposure being limited to two minutes. I looked into an S007 but found it's long exposure had been limited to one minute!
I enjoyed the camera and if Leica can figure out their problems I might even consider it again.
Second that.

Leica seriously needs to add long exposures to the S 007 if they want the landscape crowd to even consider it. I do use it for my work, but I have to bring an SL along both for backup and for long exposures; while that is ok as a temporary fix, I definitely would love to be able to use the S great lenses and sensor for my long exposure work.

Best,

Vieri
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Like the OP, I went through the "teething pains" with the S system years ago. Now I am suppose to endure having all it's teeth pulled one-by-one.

Communications is not the only issue here.

Leica altered the firmware to speed-up the AF and in the process caused a Tsunami of AF failures. One has to ask the obvious question ... did they throughly test the new firmware before releasing it?

When they discovered this issue why in the hell didn't they issue a bulletin warning owners to NOT upgrade their firmware and if they had, offer new firmware to slow it down or lessen the torque until they could find a solution to the AF issue? Instead, they let it destroy lens after lens after lens (along with their reputation, and the the value of the S kit). Did they think the issue was going to magically disappear?

I have $46,000 retail in CS lenses, one of which is in my possession but currently out of commission, and the another lost by Leica Service.

Every S lens I have has failed and has been to service, but they were corrected before the rumored "permanent fix". I use the word rumored because there is no public word from Leica on the subject ... more importantly, no word privately ... no road map on how to get the permanent fix. If true, I now will need to have all of them redone, with all the time and effort that will require.

As usual in today's crappy service environment, someone else's problem has been made my problem.

Not exactly a high-end experience.

I do not want another system. I simply want this one to work.

- Marc
 

algrove

Well-known member
Like the OP, I went through the "teething pains" with the S system years ago. Now I am suppose to endure having all it's teeth pulled one-by-one.

Communications is not the only issue here.

Leica altered the firmware to speed-up the AF and in the process caused a Tsunami of AF failures. One has to ask the obvious question ... did they throughly test the new firmware before releasing it?

When they discovered this issue why in the hell didn't they issue a bulletin warning owners to NOT upgrade their firmware and if they had, offer new firmware to slow it down or lessen the torque until they could find a solution to the AF issue? Instead, they let it destroy lens after lens after lens (along with their reputation, and the the value of the S kit). Did they think the issue was going to magically disappear?

I have $46,000 retail in CS lenses, one of which is in my possession but currently out of commission, and the another lost by Leica Service.

Every S lens I have has failed and has been to service, but they were corrected before the rumored "permanent fix". I use the word rumored because there is no public word from Leica on the subject ... more importantly, no word privately ... no road map on how to get the permanent fix. If true, I now will need to have all of them redone, with all the time and effort that will require.

As usual in today's crappy service environment, someone else's problem has been made my problem.

Not exactly a high-end experience.

I do not want another system. I simply want this one to work.

- Marc
Sorry to all those affected by S issues. Leica has shot itself in the foot.

However, IMHO Leica has been weak in the electronics end of things with all their products that I have owned or friends own (thank gosh I passed on the S) prior to the Q which I have no problems with up to now.

It just seems like one hand has no idea of what the other hand is doing at Leica. Someone has a new gear wheel, which fails on original S lenses, now made in China and he is happy with the results. Do the FW teams operate in a vacuum? Do the service people think forgotten product and long repair times endear customers who pay probably too much for Leica gear. Who cares if they repair items ad infinitum for no upcharge, if those products are unuseable for months on end and often come back with less than optimal repairs.

Everyone has been justifying their high dollar Leica purchases by saying the lenses are superior. Have those same people tried Fuji XT2 lenses, or Pentax new 645Z lenses or Phase S-K Blue Ring lenses? Even the old Hasseldlad SWC 38mm Zeiss lens holds up. Are these same people saying this because they strain their eyes looking at 200 to 400% images on their uber screens? I did not buy my Leica gear to do that with. I print my images and I can tell you MANY other manufacturers make superior lenses too. That arguement is just old hat nowadays. I could care less about MTF charts. I care about results and how my images print.

I can understand not wanting to sell S gear into a negative leaning market. However, with aging camera that the S is, it still takes great shots. Oh, I forgot it's the photographer that takes great shots while using whatever tool he or she has in the hand.

I bit the bullet and sold my Leica gear and I am so happy I did. Yes, it took lots of soul searching and a pocketbook with less in it than when I bought, but I wrote the loss off to the enjoyment I received while using the gear, but mostly due to the images I captured while using it.

Does one need an S for internet and screen views? No. Does one need an S for 13x19 prints? No. Heck I now use my XT2 for that type of work and its images probably support 24x36 prints. Is Fuji considered the high end answer to what one might do with images for the internet or small prints? No. My question is what is high end anymore. Leica is no longer the mark it once was. Does high end now mean throwing tons of money at an uber system? Not any more, if you are results oriented. Owning a Leica has been considered owning the best to outsiders who have no idea of all the problems Leica has created for itself with shoddy electrical engineering, horrible US service and lousy FW updates. IMHO, Leica is just not the best any longer.
 

Bernard

Member
Leica altered the firmware to speed-up the AF and in the process caused a Tsunami of AF failures.
Marc, I can see the logic in this, but the firmware and AF issues aren't necessarily related. It could just be a coincidence.

People have reported AF issues on lenses that were only used on the S2.

My theory is that it's age-related. The AF motor assemblies that are failing probably come from the same batch. That would explain why we see the same issue with new lenses and old lenses. They probably all use the same motors from a batch of 10,000 (for instance).

I wonder if other issues are at play. Could it be that environmental factors like ozone are significant? Ozone is known to accelerate the deterioration of plastics, and this could explain why some owners have suffered multiple failures while others have not had any.

Only Leica knows for sure, and only Leica knows the actual failure rate. We are all just speculating.
 

Bernard

Member
Have those same people tried Fuji XT2 lenses, or Pentax new 645Z lenses or Phase S-K Blue Ring lenses?
Yes, I have personally tried many of those competing products, during the same shoot. The difference between the S lenses and the competition is not subtle. It jumps-out and slaps you in the face. On screen and in print.

The S lenses dig-out contrast and sharpness where other lenses give up. I find this to be especially striking in high-contrast and backlit situations. I've shot groups on overcast days where you can see individual hairs against the white sky. Other lenses will give you a purple/blue blob at best in those conditions. I've deliberately flared shots with the Sun in the frame while maintaining natural contrast in the foreground. You don't get that type of performance from most lenses. The difference may not be apparent when the Sun is over your shoulder and you are stopped-down a couple of stops, but it becomes very clear when you start to push the boundaries of your lens's performance.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Yes, I have personally tried many of those competing products, during the same shoot. The difference between the S lenses and the competition is not subtle. It jumps-out and slaps you in the face. On screen and in print.

You don't get that type of performance from most lenses. The difference may not be apparent when the Sun is over your shoulder and you are stopped-down a couple of stops, but it becomes very clear when you start to push the boundaries of your lens's performance.
I hear you, but have you tried the latest S-K Blue ring lenses? If you had, your comments just might be different.

Regarding your comments about S lens failures. It is the torque that the new FW puts on the AF gear wheel istelf from what I understand. This has been explained over and over again. Sounds like you do not want to admit there is in fact a problem.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Sorry, some of these explanations do not make sense, although anything is possible.

It would be a massive coincidence in the case of the firmware designed to "improve" AF speed and sudden AF failure ... often immediately upon start up even with a new lens mounted to a new camera.

Which brings up yet another obvious question ... if Leica knew about this issue, how are these flawed lenses getting out of the factory in the first place?

If the dealers had any foresight they'd test every S lens before they sell it ... since Leica evidently isn't. Send flawed new lenses back in mass quantities and maybe Leica will get the message.

Regarding other systems ... not interested. I prefer this one because all the lenses, not just a few, are consistent looking and have the look and feel I want. They feature fast apertures and perform well wide open ... plus all of my lenses except the S100/2 are central shutter.

All I want is for the kit to be reasonably reliable ... which it is not.

In the end all the attributes designed into this system, all the work of the optical designers, all the good intentions of the dealers are for nothing if the thing doesn't work and cannot be counted on.

- Marc
 

Bernard

Member
Algrove,

Please re-read my comments. I did not deny that there is a problem. As far as I know, the exact cause has not been fully explained by the people who would know. There's been lots of speculation (including from me), but nothing definitive. Don't hold back if you know otherwise.

I stand by what I wrote regarding the capabilities of the S lenses. I ran a Mamiya/Phase system before the S.

By the way, is this what you do? Look for people who have different opinions from yours and try to wear them down? Hardly seems constructive. I wrote from experience, if your experience is different then perhaps you can expound on that.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Algrove,

Please re-read my comments. I did not deny that there is a problem. As far as I know, the exact cause has not been fully explained by the people who would know. There's been lots of speculation (including from me), but nothing definitive. Don't hold back if you know otherwise.

I stand by what I wrote regarding the capabilities of the S lenses. I ran a Mamiya/Phase system before the S.

By the way, is this what you do? Look for people who have different opinions from yours and try to wear them down? Hardly seems constructive. I wrote from experience, if your experience is different then perhaps you can expound on that.
Look at Roger's posts. He has first hand knowledge of the problem and potential solution.

A Mamiya/Phase utilized the older lenses and not the new and latest ones. Also which Phase DB did you use before you got your S. Have you tried a modern MF camera other than the S of late?

I do not try to wear anyone down. I have been burned by Leica and Leica Service including trips directly to Germany where they denied obvious problems to my face which later and after a plethora of complaints from other owners, Leica finally admitted the problem existed which they first denied to me. But they only admitted it upon me calling them and continually complaining instead of being proactive and letting customers know of the problem up front once discovered at their end. That was the beginning of the end for me. I have many other Leica stories which I will not expound on here.

This AF issue sounds the same where the new torque put on the AF wheel by the "improved" AF FW causes failure (this is known by active S selling US dealers), but where one gets either denial from the fatherland or business as usual where the customer suffers use loss either once if lucky or multiple times if unlucky. Even if they fix lenses multiple times for no charge (and they should due to an engineering snafu) the down time for all these owners is inexcuseable. Where's the QC at Leica? They seem to let their dealers take all the abuse from owners instead of stepping up and admitting to all S owners there is an issue and send in your lenses.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
The only people getting "worn down" are the owners of these flawed lenses. Time after time after time. That Leica supposedly now has a solution is testimony that there is a problem that has been ongoing ... my first AF failure was well over a year ago maybe over 2 years ago, and has continued unchecked from lens to lens and now the same lens again.

If we stay silent, say nothing regardless of what someone else says or how indignantly they protest, then nothing gets done.

While I am sure there are lens systems that fit other's visual criteria, I like this one. So, I want it to work commensurate with what I paid for.

- Marc
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Why I still like it ....

I do ... admit that I love the S lenses ... and the compact brick house body .... and am so disappointed that the
corporate ethic at Leica allows this cluster to continue. I have been in and out of the system 3 times ... and
am now using a M-D and a A7Rii with some MF lenses.

If the S .... all versions ... was not so flawed I would be over the moon ... and still lugging the box around.

Just want it to work and work and work ....

Truly with all the new products at Leica ... one imagines that they could recall all the lenses ... revise the faulty
part ... take a tax write off for the loss and have the best system and lenses imaginable. Up the MP count in a future
model and capture a huge market.

As it stands ... silence and small bandaids on a major flaw will not solve the underlying discontent and distrust that they have
engendered.

And if they did the above I would rebuy an S in a heartbeat. Less than this at this point I have sought a compromise, which works
to a certain extent but is not ideal. But I do not have the continual angst of living with a potentially unfaithful camera ... one which
belies the aura and promise that allowed me to buy in not once, twice but three times.

Imagine if Leica said .... enough ... we have a permanent fix and while you will be without lenses for a time ... when they return they
will be worth the R.. Dot.

To do this it will take courage and sacrifice ... about time Leica takes the hit rather than expecting their customers to do so.

Enough said ... a great product ... some unimaginably wonderful pictures that I could not have captured any other way ...


Bob
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
This post is about my long term relationship with my S2. Like any relationship, it has had it's ups and downs, with many compromises. I have had my S2 since 2010 as a replacement for two systems, Nikon D700 and Hasselblad CFV. I felt that several factors weighed in the favor of the S as it was weather sealed and had the "medium format" sized sensor that set the Hasselblad apart from the FF. My reasoning was that the size of the Nikon lenses and weight of the Hasselblad equaled out with the Leica S in terms of form factor and carriability - is that a word? My choices at the time would be a move to the Hasselblad H4D40 of a Phase system which were both large and not weather sealed. Weather sealing is important to me as I lived in Seattle at the time.

Lenses were few and far between and I waited patiently for the release of the 180 and 30 to add to my 70. As I patiently waited I got to really appreciate the image quality, my main criteria, was by far the best that I have experienced from a digital camera. I preface that because I still feel there is no substitute for big 8x10 chromes! But during my wait for the added lenses, I experienced a cracked sensor back to Solms (at the time) for a new sensor. The camera came back within two weeks and I was back to shooting again. Not long after my camera came back, a new 180 arrived but not without drama, the camera was exposing 1.5 stops over which had nothing to do with the at the time, sticky aperture blades issue, as this happened wide open, in manual exposure mode. This time I had to send both camera and lens back to Solms but not before a loaner S and 180 arrived from NJ - thank you. You would think by this time that I should have just bailed and got back to Nikon/Hasselblad but the image quality was so good and the options too costly or the lenses not of the same caliber (this was before Zeiss Otus). Once you start shooting a larger format, it is harder to go back to even a FF 35, which is true in both film and digital.

As an early adopter, I was hopeful of the CS lenses that were promised as I like to use fill flash a lot. I was told that I could upgrade my standard lenses for the CS lenses for the difference in price which at the time was ~$1000. With registration certificates in hand (from the Leica web site) I was hopeful to get my standard lenses upgraded to CS. Balloon burst when Leica said that the date of purchase must fall within this time period and my 30 did not qualify for the upgrade, certificates were not valid. A big cold slap in the face and I thought of dumping the system and moving to a FF high res solution. Then I looked at the images and reversed my decision, the images, it is all about the images. Recently with the abundance of used S lenses I was able to secure CS lenses for about the same or less than the original program offer.

AF motor failures, breath on the lens and the motor fails, started around the time of the 007 introduction and faster AF. It affected all of my lenses at one time or another, never kept me from shooting as the focus ring was always free and I prefer to manually focus anyway. But the big change in all the years of repairs was the level of service. I can accept that things fail, but it is how you address the failure and this is where things have gotten bad. My 180 failed and went back for a new motor only to come back with a loose front element. It went back for six months with no word on when it will be back. Far different than getting a replacement to use in it's absence.

A new year, new MF offerings are on the horizon do I switch or do I stay? Well both new platforms are weatherproof and are compact, more so the X1D. Both are unproven territory and I do not want to be a beta tester. What I have seen and handled from the X1D is a short battery life, every time that I have gone into my dealer to shoot with the camera, the battery was dead or nearly dead. My S can go weeks without a charge I average about 2000 shots before the battery needs a charge. The GFX is still to be announced and while Fuji has great lenses and great track record it is still a new platform. The silence from Wetzlar on what lies ahead for the S and the lack of availability of the S-SL adapter could be signs that the S maybe going through a transition. The value of the S has depreciated rapidly but the images are still magical. The S is fully paid for and I know the limitations and strengths after all these years.

Like a relationship, you take the good with the bad and hopefully the equation is on the side of good. I put up with the service from Leica because I value the images I get from the system. Do I wish that the system never fail? Yes. The reality is that it has failed but more important is the support system has failed and I believe that a fix is on the way. Am I just a Leica Fanboy oblivious to all the bad things? Yes and no, I am seduced by the image quality and at the same time a realist who looks at the depreciated value of the kit. To cut my losses at this point to replace it with another digital system that will too go through the depreciation cycle is not what I would like to do at this point in time. Just like getting a divorce from a wife of 40 years for a younger model, it will cost you dearly and you don't know what you will end up with.
A great love story!
BUT I am 77 and time is too valuable to wait for someone to decide when they will repair my camera/lens.
I paid up and bought a proven back (IQ 100...P1) which I use with my proven H lenses (Hasselblad) by virtue of the proven H5X body.
My relationship is short term so far but it has been a passionate love affair non the less with full approval of my wife of 53 years
Stanley
 

DB5

Member
I am new here, but have been following the threads and storm over Leica and the S for sometime. Thank you to everyone for sharing their experiences and my commiserations for your ongoing ordeals. I understand why people want to continue pursuing the system, when it works it is marvellous. However, I have had enough with Leica and I am looking to rid myself of my constant woes with their systems. Corroded sensors, abandoned systems, broken lens motors, tea stained LCD's, welcome to the painfully expensive time bomb that is Leica. I have accepted the fact that the cost of moving on is far greater than I would have expected or preferred but I think it's better to cut losses before it gets even worse, or perhaps before the ship sinks altogether. These problems have been plaguing us for over a year now and still, no resolve, and all along, the value of a very expensive kit has been decimated. There is no permanent fix and one of my colleagues needed to send his lens back for a second time only months after it was returned. Leica's continued silence on the matter is inexcusable, all my faith in this brand has been shot and nicely rendering lenses are not enough and are in no way making up for the unreliability and financial loss that this has become.

It seems Phase One will receive my business from now on.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
A great love story!
BUT I am 77 and time is too valuable to wait for someone to decide when they will repair my camera/lens.
I paid up and bought a proven back (IQ 100...P1) which I use with my proven H lenses (Hasselblad) by virtue of the proven H5X body.
My relationship is short term so far but it has been a passionate love affair non the less with full approval of my wife of 53 years
Stanley
Sounds like a good choice based on a excellent assessment of requirements and priorities .( As evidenced by staying married for 53 years ...and obtaining approval to spend $50K on your gear .) :clap:
 

algrove

Well-known member
Who needs approval for spending money on a great hobby since we earned the funds in the first place?
 

baudolino

Active member
One more point I would like to add, and I know there are folks where this is not such a problem, but I get tired of systems that require so much money.
This point resonates with me more and more. I own the S007 plus a bunch of lenses but the cost makes me think twice about leaving it in hotel safes etc. or even taking it with me when traveling. I've just returned from 10 days in the Caribbean with my XPro2 /XT2, each with one lens, and the experience was liberating - the lower weight and the relative lack of worry when using the cameras on the beaches, leaving them in the hotel room etc. Sometimes just not needing to worry about the equipment getting stolen or damaged outweighs the IQ advantage.
 

stngoldberg

Well-known member
This point resonates with me more and more. I own the S007 plus a bunch of lenses but the cost makes me think twice about leaving it in hotel safes etc. or even taking it with me when traveling. I've just returned from 10 days in the Caribbean with my XPro2 /XT2, each with one lens, and the experience was liberating - the lower weight and the relative lack of worry when using the cameras on the beaches, leaving them in the hotel room etc. Sometimes just not needing to worry about the equipment getting stolen or damaged outweighs the IQ advantage.
We are so fortunate in this wonderful country of ours to have highly rated insurance companies who are willing to insure our gear for a small fraction of the original cost. The cost is low because most of us value our equipment so much that we are careful as you have been and most of the insurees are honest and don't file false claims.
The weight of medium format is a trade off one has to consider; but when you view that 100 megapixel image on your monitor, you continue to pay your dues at your local gymnasium
Stanley
 

Paratom

Well-known member
This point resonates with me more and more. I own the S007 plus a bunch of lenses but the cost makes me think twice about leaving it in hotel safes etc. or even taking it with me when traveling. I've just returned from 10 days in the Caribbean with my XPro2 /XT2, each with one lens, and the experience was liberating - the lower weight and the relative lack of worry when using the cameras on the beaches, leaving them in the hotel room etc. Sometimes just not needing to worry about the equipment getting stolen or damaged outweighs the IQ advantage.
get an insurance (I did) and it makes you feel better to use your expensive equipment.
I see no sense in buying expensive things and lieving them at home because one is afraid of damage or thiefs, so insurance helps. (No, I dont sell insurance)
 
Top