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leica s lenses af motor failures
- Thread starter msadat
- Start date
Official Release sent via e-mail.
This seems to imply that "some cases" and "unfavorable conditions" are the culprit. What cases and unfavorable conditions might those be? Mine failed when the camera was turned on.
Also, it appears that this is for original purchases with-in 5 years (which logically would seem to require a proof of purchase date from an authorized Leica dealer). What about those who bought used in good faith, or those who try to sell S lenses after this announcement?
Not sure what to make of it in respect to age of my different lenses (which were all purchased new), time it took to fail, then repaired, then how long before another failure, and whether it'll fit with-in the original purchase time frame.
I've had two AF repairs in recent months, CS-70mm and CS-35mm ... they lost my 70mm and it was replaced with a new one, the 35mm was repaired ... however, I do not know if either has the permanent fix!
IMO, 5 years is too short a time frame for such expensive lenses ... but I guess it is better than nothing, and will benefit later buyers into the S system lenses.
Sigh,:banghead:
Marc
This seems to imply that "some cases" and "unfavorable conditions" are the culprit. What cases and unfavorable conditions might those be? Mine failed when the camera was turned on.
Also, it appears that this is for original purchases with-in 5 years (which logically would seem to require a proof of purchase date from an authorized Leica dealer). What about those who bought used in good faith, or those who try to sell S lenses after this announcement?
Not sure what to make of it in respect to age of my different lenses (which were all purchased new), time it took to fail, then repaired, then how long before another failure, and whether it'll fit with-in the original purchase time frame.
I've had two AF repairs in recent months, CS-70mm and CS-35mm ... they lost my 70mm and it was replaced with a new one, the 35mm was repaired ... however, I do not know if either has the permanent fix!
IMO, 5 years is too short a time frame for such expensive lenses ... but I guess it is better than nothing, and will benefit later buyers into the S system lenses.
Sigh,:banghead:
Marc
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
This is a BullShit policy !
The reason that the S lenses fail(frequently) is that they never anticipated the high load factor of faster AF . It is not at all an unusual occurrence if you have an S 007 or upgraded the firmware on an S 006 ...in fact it is the norm . This was an defect that was caused ..not by some random out of spec parts ...but rather due to unanticipated requirements caused by improving the speed of the AF system.
Lenses most often (not always fail ...basically strip the gear .....) at start up ..after sitting for a while . Thus the photographer with infrequent usage or even a brand new lens ....may be surprised after mounting the lens .
I am all in on the Leica S system owning 24/30/35/45/70/100/120/180 /30-90 ..so thats NINE S lenses and two bodies . This by far my all time favorite system for the combination of DSLR handling and small MF image quality . So my intention is to persevere thru Leica s never ending serious of challenges . Five of my nine lenses have the permanent fix ...two are in WETZLER and should be back in a few weeks . Two have yet to go .
FIVE YEARS is a bad joke ...I purchased the 180 used right after the S2 started delivery ....so my guess is they could declare it out of warranty . Charging for preemptive replacement ? ..so I can go to Ireland this summer and have my lenses fail ? :banghead:
When will Leica ever learn to TEST their hypothesis with REAL PHOTOGRAPHERS that have invested in their systems ......the reality will be that this will be sorted out between the dealers and Wetzler on a case by case basis .......NOW DON T YOU FEEL BETTER ?:cussing:
ROGER DUNHAM
The reason that the S lenses fail(frequently) is that they never anticipated the high load factor of faster AF . It is not at all an unusual occurrence if you have an S 007 or upgraded the firmware on an S 006 ...in fact it is the norm . This was an defect that was caused ..not by some random out of spec parts ...but rather due to unanticipated requirements caused by improving the speed of the AF system.
Lenses most often (not always fail ...basically strip the gear .....) at start up ..after sitting for a while . Thus the photographer with infrequent usage or even a brand new lens ....may be surprised after mounting the lens .
I am all in on the Leica S system owning 24/30/35/45/70/100/120/180 /30-90 ..so thats NINE S lenses and two bodies . This by far my all time favorite system for the combination of DSLR handling and small MF image quality . So my intention is to persevere thru Leica s never ending serious of challenges . Five of my nine lenses have the permanent fix ...two are in WETZLER and should be back in a few weeks . Two have yet to go .
FIVE YEARS is a bad joke ...I purchased the 180 used right after the S2 started delivery ....so my guess is they could declare it out of warranty . Charging for preemptive replacement ? ..so I can go to Ireland this summer and have my lenses fail ? :banghead:
When will Leica ever learn to TEST their hypothesis with REAL PHOTOGRAPHERS that have invested in their systems ......the reality will be that this will be sorted out between the dealers and Wetzler on a case by case basis .......NOW DON T YOU FEEL BETTER ?:cussing:
ROGER DUNHAM
I also find 5 years a bad joke. They should offer at least 10 years, as long as a "old" motor unit is the reason for the defect.
By the way - is there any way I can speed up the defect on my S-lenses - So I can send all lenses in for free exchange to the new motor unit?
I hope Leica will be flexible with their interpretation of 5 years ;=)
By the way - is there any way I can speed up the defect on my S-lenses - So I can send all lenses in for free exchange to the new motor unit?
I hope Leica will be flexible with their interpretation of 5 years ;=)
Yevgeny NP
Member
Thank you very much for your very good question.
My S-Summicron 100 mm failed on the SL with the adapter BTW. I am trying to fail the Zoom now, shooting it daily on the SL. Then I will try to fail my S120.
glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
The lenses fail most frequently when they are used on a S 007 . The startup routine after mounting a lens is where they normally fail .
GMB
Active member
Can someone who owns a S007 please contact me so that I can run my S lenses on that camera. So far I had one failure with my 120 but I have a 24, 35, 39-90, 70, 100, and 180. The 35 and 180 purchased in 2011, i.e. more than 5 years ago. The 5-year rule, if applied, is a joke and an embarrassment for a company who claims to put its customers first.
JoshMerwin
Member
This would have to be 5 years from when they found a fix, which is now. And it sounds like second part of the wording of this policy is applied to new purchases. Otherwise they would be opened to a hefty lawsuit, I would imagine. You can't acknowledge a manufacturers defect and not repair the defect for free in only some of the items that were defective. I guess you could try, but if they were ever taken to court, I don't know what their defense would be.
bab
Active member
This is not a recall! It should be, or at least Leica should if your the original purchaser of any Leica S lenses Leica will within a reasonable time review and determine if the AF motors in you collection of lenses need replacement. This replacement will be preformed at no cost. If your not the original purchaser of Leica S lenses Leica will for "X" amount inspect and replace any S lens sent in for repair.
Leica wants insure all owners of S lenses these repairs will be handled on a first in first out basis. And that Leica has set up a special line of trained workers to make theses repair and replacement within 30 days of receiving your lenses!
Thank You for being our customer and your loyalty we realize you have a choice and your in good hands.
The Leica Team
Leica wants insure all owners of S lenses these repairs will be handled on a first in first out basis. And that Leica has set up a special line of trained workers to make theses repair and replacement within 30 days of receiving your lenses!
Thank You for being our customer and your loyalty we realize you have a choice and your in good hands.
The Leica Team
Go back and read the announcement closely. It is tricky weasel wording that obfuscates the problem with "could have been impaired" and "a defect may appear" and applies "only to lenses affected by this concrete defect" (whatever that means) ... all designed to give them a way out by "spinning" Leica's universal engineering mistake into a S system owner's problem.
BTW, it is NOT 5 years from this announcement as currently written. As written, half of my lenses are no longer covered. There is no clarification whether lenses that have failed and repaired with the old part are covered even if they were originally purchased prior to the 5 year time limit. (???)
Rather than issue an organized recall for a defective product, Leica offers a "preventative option" for the repair at the owner's expense!:wtf: I wonder what THAT will cost!
Leica should have privately contacted registered owners of S lenses first, and those who have had the AF replaced already ... provided a 7 year warranty certificate from date of issue (i.e. NOW) for any AF motor replacement needed because of this known issue, and made it transferable. Period.
- Marc
BTW, it is NOT 5 years from this announcement as currently written. As written, half of my lenses are no longer covered. There is no clarification whether lenses that have failed and repaired with the old part are covered even if they were originally purchased prior to the 5 year time limit. (???)
Rather than issue an organized recall for a defective product, Leica offers a "preventative option" for the repair at the owner's expense!:wtf: I wonder what THAT will cost!
Leica should have privately contacted registered owners of S lenses first, and those who have had the AF replaced already ... provided a 7 year warranty certificate from date of issue (i.e. NOW) for any AF motor replacement needed because of this known issue, and made it transferable. Period.
- Marc
Perhaps they should offer a buy back program, whereas any potentially affected lens (issues or not) could be replaced with the new generation lenses. The value (or depreciation) could be determined retroactively by the owners date of purchase and/or Leica's awareness of the issue. I think in good faith Leica should simply buy back the affected serial numbers lenses and get them off the market. They should be sensitive to the depreciation of their flagship camera.
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Lots of discussions on the Leica Forum, too.
I am one who is happy with the statement from Leica. I have seen the used prices tumble on both lenses and bodies because of this, and frankly I have been worried about the future of the whole S system. I am therefore very happy that a solution has been found, even if it comes at a cost.
I am as frustrated as others about the fact that these problems have occurred, that Leica has been late to inform, and to correct. Still I think this is good for all S owners.
My guess of what has happened (I have no inside information), is that a weak AF motor has been delivered from a supplier to Leica. I assume all lenses produced up to now have this motor, and potentially can be affected. The problems have accelerated after the S006 and S007 got a faster AF. A call back would therefore affect ALL lenses produced, although only some (unpredictably) will fail. Despite all the noise, I have heard that the percentage affected is rather low.
SO, we get a response from Leica where all failed lenses will be repaired free until 5 years from purchase, and that there is an option to do preventive maintenance, at your own cost, on lenses that have not failed, or on older lenses. According to David Farkas, the price is approx. 400 use per lens.
Of course you also have the choice of continuing using your lenses, hoping that they will not fail. For some, this is not a good option. For a pro with a paid model in the studio, a failing lens will be more expensive than a repair. For me, traveling often with my S, maybe with 1 or 2 lenses, I don't want to take the chance of a failing lens. I have therefore already sent my 5 lenses to Leica for repair. This will cost me approx 2000 usd according to Farkas. This is the same amount that I pay in insurance for a year for my systems (including body). Given the situation, I am willing to pay this price to have a fully functioning system.
I note that some people expect a full callback, eternal guarantee etc. I think this is totally unrealistic for an electronic product. I do not know any other company offering that. In fact we have here the same type of guarantee/repair as given on the M sensors with sensor corrosion (again supplier fault).
I can understand the frustration, but in the big picture this is the only way forward for the S system. You have lost more on the used prices on your lenses due to this problem, than what it will cost to get it preemptively upgraded. Reinstating trust in the S lenses will actually give better prices.
I really love my S system, and I am willing to pay this to get a fully functional system. Others may prefer to live with the risk. Anyway, I think this benefits the system and protects our investment.
I am one who is happy with the statement from Leica. I have seen the used prices tumble on both lenses and bodies because of this, and frankly I have been worried about the future of the whole S system. I am therefore very happy that a solution has been found, even if it comes at a cost.
I am as frustrated as others about the fact that these problems have occurred, that Leica has been late to inform, and to correct. Still I think this is good for all S owners.
My guess of what has happened (I have no inside information), is that a weak AF motor has been delivered from a supplier to Leica. I assume all lenses produced up to now have this motor, and potentially can be affected. The problems have accelerated after the S006 and S007 got a faster AF. A call back would therefore affect ALL lenses produced, although only some (unpredictably) will fail. Despite all the noise, I have heard that the percentage affected is rather low.
SO, we get a response from Leica where all failed lenses will be repaired free until 5 years from purchase, and that there is an option to do preventive maintenance, at your own cost, on lenses that have not failed, or on older lenses. According to David Farkas, the price is approx. 400 use per lens.
Of course you also have the choice of continuing using your lenses, hoping that they will not fail. For some, this is not a good option. For a pro with a paid model in the studio, a failing lens will be more expensive than a repair. For me, traveling often with my S, maybe with 1 or 2 lenses, I don't want to take the chance of a failing lens. I have therefore already sent my 5 lenses to Leica for repair. This will cost me approx 2000 usd according to Farkas. This is the same amount that I pay in insurance for a year for my systems (including body). Given the situation, I am willing to pay this price to have a fully functioning system.
I note that some people expect a full callback, eternal guarantee etc. I think this is totally unrealistic for an electronic product. I do not know any other company offering that. In fact we have here the same type of guarantee/repair as given on the M sensors with sensor corrosion (again supplier fault).
I can understand the frustration, but in the big picture this is the only way forward for the S system. You have lost more on the used prices on your lenses due to this problem, than what it will cost to get it preemptively upgraded. Reinstating trust in the S lenses will actually give better prices.
I really love my S system, and I am willing to pay this to get a fully functional system. Others may prefer to live with the risk. Anyway, I think this benefits the system and protects our investment.
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I appreciate your POV.
Obviously, it is a way forward.
I do not particularly buy the we should be grateful because used prices may stabilize. I honestly don't care what used prices do or don't do. I paid a fortune for a system I was satisfied with and intended to finish out my career with ... until all this happened. I can't send all my lenses in, I'd be left with no system for the work I do. Not to mention that I'm at a stage where $2,500 and dealing with Leica USA service ... plus all the shipping hassle and insurance ... is no small thing ... especially given that it was Leica's issue not mine.
I can't wait to shell out more copious currency for the five CS lenses and S-100/2.2 I paid a King's ransom for ... just to get back to what I paid for in the first place!
BTW, this is not an electronic issue (i.e., computers, cell-phones), it is a badly spec'ed mechanical part compounded by poor testing of the firmware upgrade in the field ... from a lens maker. Leica keeps having problems with supplier issues ... and it seems they love to point the finger at someone else. As if I care about the who, what, when, and where.
I also do not believe this is a small fraction of the lenses out there. I suspect it is all of them, eventually ... if used on a more contemporary S. If it were a small % of lenses then they should not be afraid of a blanket warranty specifically for AF failure with no restrictions as to when you bought the lens ... the failures began happening more recently because of the firmware upgrade so at the most it should be retroactive to those firmware updates. By backdating the fix to 5 years after waiting to deal with it is horse crap. The penalty for their slow action, is that many will have to pay for that slow action. Maybe they should have waited another year ... less lenses to fix that way.
I'm angry because every single one of my lenses have failed and a couple have failed twice! It just never seems to end. I'm not alone in that experience.
- Marc
atanabe
Member
My experience is that it is camera agnostic, I have an S2 with AF motor failures. All occur on start up, I make sure to have the camera off before mounting or dismounting lenses. But it still has happened, my 120 and 180 came back late last year with I hope, the new, improved motors.
I thought it was the gear on the motor that failed not the motors. Having said that the entire assembly probably is what is replaced.
It would be good customer service for Leica to ALSO offer S owners a $100 Visa prepaid card to make them feel like Leica cares about their S customers AND also make the repairs free on all lenses from 5 years from when they announced a resolution or say from 1/1/17 for 5 years forward.
Could be too much to ask for a company that likes your money, but not your complaints.
It would be good customer service for Leica to ALSO offer S owners a $100 Visa prepaid card to make them feel like Leica cares about their S customers AND also make the repairs free on all lenses from 5 years from when they announced a resolution or say from 1/1/17 for 5 years forward.
Could be too much to ask for a company that likes your money, but not your complaints.
I suspect it's the usual "unfavorable conditions" for nylon gears: heat/cold, thermal cycling, pollutants, ozone.
And torque with the new FW.