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Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

bensonga

Well-known member
As posted on the Leica Forum and LUG today, based on an email reportedly sent to registered owners by Leica:

Latest information concerning the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models.

Following the successfully implemented and largely completed replacement program for corroded sensors that affected M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E camera models, we would now like to inform you about how this program will be handled in the future.

Until August 15, 2017, we will continue to offer free replacement of sensors for these camera models if they are affected by the corrosion problem. This will also apply after August 16, 2017 for the models listed above, but only in cases where the cameras have been purchased as new products within the last five years.

From August 16, 2017, and until further notice, we will offer our customers the following new program for all camera models mentioned above that were purchased more than five years ago. Here, the customer pays a portion of the replacement costs for the affected CCD sensor amounting to 982 euros (825 euros plus 19% VAT). In addition to this we also offer you a free general overhaul* of your Leica M camera and a one year warranty in line with the same terms as for new products. This offer expresses our commitment to conserving the value of your camera.

We have also revised our upgrade offers with more attractive terms for our customers. Instead of a sensor replacement, we offer our customers the alternative option of sending us their camera affected by sensor corrosion as partial payment for the purchase of selected Leica M camera models of the Typ 240 generation at even more attractive terms. Leica Customer Care will be pleased to inform and advise interested customers about the terms and conditions of the upgrade offer.

With regard to the above, we would like to remind you that the replacement of CCD sensors and the upgrade offers apply only to cameras confirmed to be affected by this problem, and only to the models of the Leica M-System we have listed above. Preventive replacement of sensors is not included in this program.
*The general overhaul of the Leica M-camera includes the following items:

• Cleaning and overhaul of the shutter cocking mechanisms
• Cleaning and maintenance/repair of the multifunction wheel
• Cleaning of the main switch and shutter speed dial
• Adjustment of the baseplate locking system
• Refurbishing of engravings
• Renewal of the protective film on the baseplate
• Maintenance/repair of viewfinder displays
 
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bensonga

Well-known member
Three days ago I placed a low ball bid on a silver MM (original version) in excellent condition. It still has the original sensor, which the current/original owner assures me shows no sign of corrosion. I had been willing to take the risk at this price when I thought there was an unconditional guarantee for sensor replacement by Leica. Assuming the current owner is correct re no corrosion now, I am now more concerned about the possibility of future problems which might crop up after the August cutoff date.

Is there a consensus view on the possibility of future corrosion problems for a sensor which has shown no signs of corrosion after 5+ years of ownership?

Gary
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Three days ago I placed a low ball bid on a silver MM (original version) in excellent condition. It still has the original sensor, which the current/original owner assures me shows no sign of corrosion. I had been willing to take the risk at this price when I thought there was an unconditional guarantee for sensor replacement by Leica. Assuming the current owner is correct re no corrosion now, I am now more concerned about the possibility of future problems which might crop up after the August cutoff date.

Is there a consensus view on the possibility of future corrosion problems for a sensor which has shown no signs of corrosion after 5+ years of ownership?

Gary
It may show signs of corrosion within 6 months ... low ball the price based on the new program ... no one else will touch it without consideration of the new policy.

If you want a new original black MM my local store has one ... let me know ... I am using the M246 but the files from the MM1 are stellar.

Bob
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Ben, Mine, once the sensor gets replaced, will be available for sale.

Depending on the conditions (humidity) will happen more easily. That sensor cover glass is doomed from the start.
 

bensonga

Well-known member
I don't believe I can withdraw my currently winning bid on eBay at this time. As I said, it is a low bid, in fact it is so low that even if I did have to pay for the discounted cost of replacing the sensor under the new program (~approx 825 Euros excluding VAT, if I read it correctly), the all in cost of the camera would be about what the going price for an MM has been recently (although I expect those prices will now see a lot of downward pressure).

If I do end up with this MM, I will certainly send it to Leica for a thorough check before August, so if there are any signs of corrosion that are not readily apparent to me, it could still be replaced under the current program. I imagine there could be many other M9/MM etc owners who still have the original sensor that will be doing the same.

Gary
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
I don't believe I can withdraw my currently winning bid on eBay at this time. As I said, it is a low bid, in fact it is so low that even if I did have to pay for the discounted cost of replacing the sensor under the new program (~approx 825 Euros excluding VAT, if I read it correctly), the all in cost of the camera would be about what the going price for an MM has been recently (although I expect those prices will now see a lot of downward pressure).

If I do end up with this MM, I will certainly send it to Leica for a thorough check before August, so if there are any signs of corrosion that are not readily apparent to me, it could still be replaced under the current program. I imagine there could be many other M9/MM etc owners who still have the original sensor that will be doing the same.

Gary
Gary,

If you have committed then I would suggest ride it like you stole it ... Many have sent in cameras to be told ... looks good ... but within months the corrosion appears. Truth be told they have a solution
and it is comprehensive ... just enjoy the camera and if it develops the problem address it at that point. Paying good money and losing months awaiting a response from Leica may not be the best approach if the
sensor is without corrosion.

I do feel that the MM1 had more organic film like rendering than the M246 ... a great choice if you value BW.

Bob
 

bensonga

Well-known member
Thanks Bob. That is good information to have and consider. I have a friend with an M9P and the original sensor which shows no sign of corrosion, but neither of us has a good sense for what percentage of sensors developed the problem and how big a factor environmental conditions played in developing the corrosion.

I am so thankful that Stuart Richardson had the sensor on the M9 I purchased from him replaced just before he sent the camera to me. Peace of mind is worth a lot to me.

Gary
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Honestly Gary

No one has a clue ... and if Leica knows they are not about to share that information.

Life is short ... good sensors lenses and process are limited ... if you have found one that works I
assume that you should run with it. A year or two from now it will be a different set of choices ... some
that we cannot even envision at this point in time.

To me photography is a set of glasses that extends my vision of reality and color light time and space.

I carry my preconceived notions of the world forward and hopefully there will be moments of transcendence
where reality can convince me of something very different. That is the hope ...

And honestly I have spent far more than the repair price of the sensor that Leica has quoted on a number of lesser
things.

Good camera ... look forward to your posts as you go forward with it.

Regards,

Bob
 
Had my M9 (bought in 2010) returned a few months ago, with the new sensor and in excellent conditon; couldn´t have been happier with Leica service... But, I own a MM1 too (bought on New Year´s Eve 2013...) that hasn´t shown similar symptoms yet. This didn´t worry me too much; after all I´d get a replacement if/when needed, I thought. I´m very happy with both cameras, and had no plans to update them as long as they work.

Now, I feel like I´ve had two wet towels slung into my face from Leica. First, a sudden and quite short limit on the time I can count on a replacement. This completely upsets my "financial planning" in an unexpected and significant way. Also, the second-hand value of both cameras will likely collapse.

Second, even if my MM sensor would corrode "just in time" ( ;) ), and I might decide to upgrade, I would be limited to the M240, a model that I´m totally uninterested in. Why not a voucher valid for a certain sum, to be used with the purchase of a new M camera, any model? (I know, I know, they need to clear the warehouses, but it does take away most of the value for a lot of affected customers).

Come on Leica! Over and again, you have proved your trustworthiness, and the long-lasting value of your products. Don´t start behaving like most other companies; stay unique, or we will lose interest. You can do better than this!!! :angry:
 

KeithL

Well-known member
First we're told there is no problem, then we're told there is a problem but we shouldn't be shooting at large apertures, then we're told that we shouldn't be wet cleaning the sensors, then we're promised that the free sensor replacement would be time unlimited and now we're told that it is indeed time limited.

Come on Leica, you're better than this!

Cross posted.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I see the hysteria continues.

Far as I can judge from reading the announcement, this is a perfectly fair and sensible way to continue the CCD sensor replacement program at a reasonable cost to both users and Leica alike.

G
 

KeithL

Well-known member
I see the hysteria continues.

Far as I can judge from reading the announcement, this is a perfectly fair and sensible way to continue the CCD sensor replacement program at a reasonable cost to both users and Leica alike.

G
You think it's fair and sensible for Leica to renege on a promise?
 

bensonga

Well-known member
As most people here know, Leica had previously promised on multiple occasions to replace the corroded sensors at no charge to the owner, regardless of the age of the camera, including a promise in 2015 to replace the original design corroded sensors with the redesigned sensors that are corrosion resistant.

If they had never made this open ended promise, I might have understood their change to the program, although I think it would be a bad way to treat their customers for a known manufacturing defect. This however, is clearly a case of promises made, but not kept.

Gary
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Show me a "promise" in writing. Please.

My recollection of the press releases may be poor, but I do not recall any promises. I recall a statement of action to be taken to correct a problem which had surfaced and was affecting customers. I don't recall this plan including any notion of it persisting in perpetuity.

G
 

Malina DZ

Member
Important Information Concerning the CCD Sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom

Show me a "promise" in writing. Please.
G
In some cases, particularly when using the camera models Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom or M-E with smaller apertures (5.6-22), effects caused by corrosion of the sensor glass may be encountered. Leica offers a free replacement service for the CCD sensors of cameras affected by this problem as a goodwill arrangement. This goodwill arrangement applies regardless of the age of the camera and also covers sensors that have already been replaced in the past. Customers who have already been charged for the replacement of a sensor affected by this problem will receive a refund.

We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution. The marks on images mentioned earlier are related to the properties of the CCD sensor. The sensors are equipped with a specially coated IR filter cover glass to ensure optimum imaging performance. Should this coating layer be damaged, corrosion effects that alter the filter surface may begin to appear after several years.

The effect described does not affect the CMOS sensor of the Leica M (Typ 240). Should you be considering an upgrade from your camera to a Leica M or M-P (Typ 240), Customer Care would be pleased to make you an attractive offer following a check of your camera and under consideration of the model and its age.

If the imaging quality of your camera gives cause for complaint in this respect, we recommend that you send it directly to Leica Customer Care or the authorized Customer Care department of your country’s Leica distributor. As longer waiting times may otherwise occur, the camera should only be sent to Customer Care after prior arrangement.

Contact: Web site: http://en.leica-camera.com/Service-Support/Repair-Maintenance. E-mail: [email protected]. Telephone: +49-6441-2080-189.

For us, it is important that we offer only technically faultless products. We are therefore particularly sorry if the imaging quality of your camera should be adversely affected in any way. We hope that the goodwill arrangement we have decided upon will allow us to remedy the problem as soon as possible and rebuild and maintain the trust you have always placed in our brand.
Source: https://us.leica-camera.com/World-o...ortant-Information-Concerning-the-CCD-Sensors
 

bensonga

Well-known member
And a subsequent notice (in writing) from Leica which they sent when the redesigned, corrosion resistant sensors had been developed and were now being used in the replacement of corroded original sensors (mid-2015).

https://en.leica-camera.com/World-o...ws/Global/2015/Latest-information-CCD-sensors

I am not a lawyer, but you may be correct Godfrey that from a very legalistic perspective, there is no EXPLICIT statement that this written "goodwill" offer to replace the original and defective sensors affected by corrosion, at no cost to the customer, will be offered "in perpetuity". From a legalistic point of view, this offer may not even apply in cases when Leica replaced the original corroded sensor with another admittedly defective sensor which was also susceptible to corrosion, instead of replacing it with the redesigned second generation sensor.

I guess if a M9 owner was unlucky enough to have their original corroded sensor replaced by another original/first generation sensor before the new-generation sensors were available and then discovered after August 15, 2017 that the replacement sensor had also become corroded, well that is just too bad, Leica is fresh out of "goodwill".

If a M9 owner with an original sensor that had not shown signs of corrosion happens to move from a dry climate to a humid climate, resulting in corrosion of the original sensor....too bad, despite earlier promises by Leica that "regardless of the age of the camera" Leica would replace the sensor for free, in fact there was an unstated expiration date on Leica's "goodwill". How foolish for that M9 owner to buy a camera and think (mistakenly) that Leica meant what it said and would keep its promise in order to ensure the goodwill of its customers.

If Leica meant to put an expiration date on the replacement of sensors which they have acknowledged are defective, they should have said so from the beginning, instead of giving people who bought these cameras, even while knowing there was a problem, a false sense of security that Leica stood behind the product and would make things right..."irrespective of the age of the camera".

Gary
 
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Godfrey

Well-known member
Thank you for providing the links to the Leica statements.

As I thought, there is no language in the statements implying that the offer of an entirely free (goodwill) replacement service for all M9, MM, and M-E cameras is to remain in perpetuity. "Regardless of the age of the camera" does not imply that; it simply states that, at the time of the announcement of the replacement program, the age of the camera exhibiting the problem would not count as a qualifier for the service.

Reading the latest announcement, note that it is prefaced with "Following the successfully implemented and largely completed replacement program for corroded sensors that affected ..." et cetera. Remember that Leica knows precisely how many cameras were manufactured with the sensors that can exhibit the corrosion problem and also knows precisely how many of them have already had their sensors updated with the new, corrected sensor cover-glass that will not succumb to this problem. These are both finite numbers—they only manufactured so many cameras that can be prone to failure and they know how many of these liabilities have already been covered with a new sensor. No one else can know these numbers with such precision.

They obviously find that these numbers are now close enough together to warrant modifying the program to handle the few stragglers that aren't old enough yet to have exhibited the problem free of charge, while at the same time leaving a reasonable option open for cameras that are either very unlikely to exhibit the problem or that have been previously owned by people who are unaffected by it.

That seems fair and sensible to me. I don't expect any company to offer 100% free remedial service for aging, obsolete products past a reasonable time limit from when they were offered new.

The good news is that once the 'reasonable time' of five years from new purchase has elapsed, the remedial service will still be available along with a full camera refurbishment AND one-year warranty at an approachable price. I don't know of any other manufacturer who has offered this level of support and service for older electronic products.

G
 
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bensonga

Well-known member
The good news is that once the 'reasonable time' of five years from new purchase has elapsed, the remedial service will still be available along with a full camera refurbishment AND one-year warranty at an approachable price. I don't know of any other manufacturer who has offered this level of support and service for older electronic products.
G
Yes, that is good news Godfrey, but regardless of this offer, I think Leica's decision will have an adverse impact on the value of existing cameras which still have the original sensor, due to the uncertainty and risk of additional costs that prospective buyers will face.

I just cancelled a bid on a very nice condition MM with the original sensor for this reason. If the seller re-lists it for a significantly lower price, I will certainly consider it, but I will now be factoring the sensor replacement costs into my decision.

Gary
 

D&A

Well-known member
Yes, that is good news Godfrey, but regardless of this offer, I think Leica's decision will have an adverse impact on the value of existing cameras which still have the original sensor, due to the uncertainty and risk of additional costs that prospective buyers will face.

I just cancelled a bid on a very nice condition MM with the original sensor for this reason. If the seller re-lists it for a significantly lower price, I will certainly consider it, but I will now be factoring the sensor replacement costs into my decision.

Gary
Gary I wholeheartedly have agreed with everything you expressed in this thread amd them some. Its the same sediment experessed by almost every poster on all other major photo sites related to Leica and virtually everyones interpretation of the public statements by Leica previously on the sensor issue. They interpreted it to simply mean Leica would replace corroded sesnors on affected cameras without any preset conditions.

Sure one can spin all sorts of legalese into the meaning of their words and who knows what would be held up in a court of law, but the overwhelming majority of indiviuals who expressed their views since Leica initially relaeased their statements before the new sensors were ready, plainly and clery interpreted it to simply mean any camera affected at any time and without a time limit, would have their sensor changed out free of charge. Didnt matter how old the camera was or whether the current owner purhased the camera new or used .

I think that if one now was to purchase a used M9 or MM with the original sensor, the original purchase date of the camera may be more important or as important as anything else.

A good number of these sensors had the issue from the very start, some even right out of the box new. Not always was it recognized by the original owner or they might not even knew of the issur or what to look for.

Leica had both the resolution and justly due praise up to now and this move is a big surprise and major disappointment. Nikon learned the hard way of the D600 fiasco and paid dearly for it, and even that issue wasn't as serious as this sensor issue.

Dave (D&A)
 
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V

Vivek

Guest
Dave, As i understood, it was a threat of legal action from China that made Nikon change its attitude.

My opinion is that Lica should have issued a recall and fixed every camera they sold.
 
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