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Thread: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

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    Senior Member bensonga's Avatar
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    Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    As posted on the Leica Forum and LUG today, based on an email reportedly sent to registered owners by Leica:

    Latest information concerning the CCD sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom and M-E camera models.

    Following the successfully implemented and largely completed replacement program for corroded sensors that affected M9, M9-P, M Monochrom and M-E camera models, we would now like to inform you about how this program will be handled in the future.

    Until August 15, 2017, we will continue to offer free replacement of sensors for these camera models if they are affected by the corrosion problem. This will also apply after August 16, 2017 for the models listed above, but only in cases where the cameras have been purchased as new products within the last five years.

    From August 16, 2017, and until further notice, we will offer our customers the following new program for all camera models mentioned above that were purchased more than five years ago. Here, the customer pays a portion of the replacement costs for the affected CCD sensor amounting to 982 euros (825 euros plus 19% VAT). In addition to this we also offer you a free general overhaul* of your Leica M camera and a one year warranty in line with the same terms as for new products. This offer expresses our commitment to conserving the value of your camera.

    We have also revised our upgrade offers with more attractive terms for our customers. Instead of a sensor replacement, we offer our customers the alternative option of sending us their camera affected by sensor corrosion as partial payment for the purchase of selected Leica M camera models of the Typ 240 generation at even more attractive terms. Leica Customer Care will be pleased to inform and advise interested customers about the terms and conditions of the upgrade offer.

    With regard to the above, we would like to remind you that the replacement of CCD sensors and the upgrade offers apply only to cameras confirmed to be affected by this problem, and only to the models of the Leica M-System we have listed above. Preventive replacement of sensors is not included in this program.
    *The general overhaul of the Leica M-camera includes the following items:

    • Cleaning and overhaul of the shutter cocking mechanisms
    • Cleaning and maintenance/repair of the multifunction wheel
    • Cleaning of the main switch and shutter speed dial
    • Adjustment of the baseplate locking system
    • Refurbishing of engravings
    • Renewal of the protective film on the baseplate
    • Maintenance/repair of viewfinder displays
    Last edited by bensonga; 15th May 2017 at 10:23.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Three days ago I placed a low ball bid on a silver MM (original version) in excellent condition. It still has the original sensor, which the current/original owner assures me shows no sign of corrosion. I had been willing to take the risk at this price when I thought there was an unconditional guarantee for sensor replacement by Leica. Assuming the current owner is correct re no corrosion now, I am now more concerned about the possibility of future problems which might crop up after the August cutoff date.

    Is there a consensus view on the possibility of future corrosion problems for a sensor which has shown no signs of corrosion after 5+ years of ownership?

    Gary

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Three days ago I placed a low ball bid on a silver MM (original version) in excellent condition. It still has the original sensor, which the current/original owner assures me shows no sign of corrosion. I had been willing to take the risk at this price when I thought there was an unconditional guarantee for sensor replacement by Leica. Assuming the current owner is correct re no corrosion now, I am now more concerned about the possibility of future problems which might crop up after the August cutoff date.

    Is there a consensus view on the possibility of future corrosion problems for a sensor which has shown no signs of corrosion after 5+ years of ownership?

    Gary
    It may show signs of corrosion within 6 months ... low ball the price based on the new program ... no one else will touch it without consideration of the new policy.

    If you want a new original black MM my local store has one ... let me know ... I am using the M246 but the files from the MM1 are stellar.

    Bob

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Ben, Mine, once the sensor gets replaced, will be available for sale.

    Depending on the conditions (humidity) will happen more easily. That sensor cover glass is doomed from the start.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    I don't believe I can withdraw my currently winning bid on eBay at this time. As I said, it is a low bid, in fact it is so low that even if I did have to pay for the discounted cost of replacing the sensor under the new program (~approx 825 Euros excluding VAT, if I read it correctly), the all in cost of the camera would be about what the going price for an MM has been recently (although I expect those prices will now see a lot of downward pressure).

    If I do end up with this MM, I will certainly send it to Leica for a thorough check before August, so if there are any signs of corrosion that are not readily apparent to me, it could still be replaced under the current program. I imagine there could be many other M9/MM etc owners who still have the original sensor that will be doing the same.

    Gary

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    I don't believe I can withdraw my currently winning bid on eBay at this time. As I said, it is a low bid, in fact it is so low that even if I did have to pay for the discounted cost of replacing the sensor under the new program (~approx 825 Euros excluding VAT, if I read it correctly), the all in cost of the camera would be about what the going price for an MM has been recently (although I expect those prices will now see a lot of downward pressure).

    If I do end up with this MM, I will certainly send it to Leica for a thorough check before August, so if there are any signs of corrosion that are not readily apparent to me, it could still be replaced under the current program. I imagine there could be many other M9/MM etc owners who still have the original sensor that will be doing the same.

    Gary
    Gary,

    If you have committed then I would suggest ride it like you stole it ... Many have sent in cameras to be told ... looks good ... but within months the corrosion appears. Truth be told they have a solution
    and it is comprehensive ... just enjoy the camera and if it develops the problem address it at that point. Paying good money and losing months awaiting a response from Leica may not be the best approach if the
    sensor is without corrosion.

    I do feel that the MM1 had more organic film like rendering than the M246 ... a great choice if you value BW.

    Bob
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Thanks Bob. That is good information to have and consider. I have a friend with an M9P and the original sensor which shows no sign of corrosion, but neither of us has a good sense for what percentage of sensors developed the problem and how big a factor environmental conditions played in developing the corrosion.

    I am so thankful that Stuart Richardson had the sensor on the M9 I purchased from him replaced just before he sent the camera to me. Peace of mind is worth a lot to me.

    Gary
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Honestly Gary

    No one has a clue ... and if Leica knows they are not about to share that information.

    Life is short ... good sensors lenses and process are limited ... if you have found one that works I
    assume that you should run with it. A year or two from now it will be a different set of choices ... some
    that we cannot even envision at this point in time.

    To me photography is a set of glasses that extends my vision of reality and color light time and space.

    I carry my preconceived notions of the world forward and hopefully there will be moments of transcendence
    where reality can convince me of something very different. That is the hope ...

    And honestly I have spent far more than the repair price of the sensor that Leica has quoted on a number of lesser
    things.

    Good camera ... look forward to your posts as you go forward with it.

    Regards,

    Bob
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Had my M9 (bought in 2010) returned a few months ago, with the new sensor and in excellent conditon; couldn´t have been happier with Leica service... But, I own a MM1 too (bought on New Year´s Eve 2013...) that hasn´t shown similar symptoms yet. This didn´t worry me too much; after all I´d get a replacement if/when needed, I thought. I´m very happy with both cameras, and had no plans to update them as long as they work.

    Now, I feel like I´ve had two wet towels slung into my face from Leica. First, a sudden and quite short limit on the time I can count on a replacement. This completely upsets my "financial planning" in an unexpected and significant way. Also, the second-hand value of both cameras will likely collapse.

    Second, even if my MM sensor would corrode "just in time" ( ), and I might decide to upgrade, I would be limited to the M240, a model that I´m totally uninterested in. Why not a voucher valid for a certain sum, to be used with the purchase of a new M camera, any model? (I know, I know, they need to clear the warehouses, but it does take away most of the value for a lot of affected customers).

    Come on Leica! Over and again, you have proved your trustworthiness, and the long-lasting value of your products. Don´t start behaving like most other companies; stay unique, or we will lose interest. You can do better than this!!!
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    First we're told there is no problem, then we're told there is a problem but we shouldn't be shooting at large apertures, then we're told that we shouldn't be wet cleaning the sensors, then we're promised that the free sensor replacement would be time unlimited and now we're told that it is indeed time limited.

    Come on Leica, you're better than this!

    Cross posted.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    I see the hysteria continues.

    Far as I can judge from reading the announcement, this is a perfectly fair and sensible way to continue the CCD sensor replacement program at a reasonable cost to both users and Leica alike.

    G

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I see the hysteria continues.

    Far as I can judge from reading the announcement, this is a perfectly fair and sensible way to continue the CCD sensor replacement program at a reasonable cost to both users and Leica alike.

    G
    You think it's fair and sensible for Leica to renege on a promise?
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    As most people here know, Leica had previously promised on multiple occasions to replace the corroded sensors at no charge to the owner, regardless of the age of the camera, including a promise in 2015 to replace the original design corroded sensors with the redesigned sensors that are corrosion resistant.

    If they had never made this open ended promise, I might have understood their change to the program, although I think it would be a bad way to treat their customers for a known manufacturing defect. This however, is clearly a case of promises made, but not kept.

    Gary
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Show me a "promise" in writing. Please.

    My recollection of the press releases may be poor, but I do not recall any promises. I recall a statement of action to be taken to correct a problem which had surfaced and was affecting customers. I don't recall this plan including any notion of it persisting in perpetuity.

    G

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    Important Information Concerning the CCD Sensors of the Leica M9 / M9-P / M Monochrom

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    Show me a "promise" in writing. Please.
    G
    In some cases, particularly when using the camera models Leica M9, M9-P, M Monochrom or M-E with smaller apertures (5.6-22), effects caused by corrosion of the sensor glass may be encountered. Leica offers a free replacement service for the CCD sensors of cameras affected by this problem as a goodwill arrangement. This goodwill arrangement applies regardless of the age of the camera and also covers sensors that have already been replaced in the past. Customers who have already been charged for the replacement of a sensor affected by this problem will receive a refund.

    We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution. The marks on images mentioned earlier are related to the properties of the CCD sensor. The sensors are equipped with a specially coated IR filter cover glass to ensure optimum imaging performance. Should this coating layer be damaged, corrosion effects that alter the filter surface may begin to appear after several years.

    The effect described does not affect the CMOS sensor of the Leica M (Typ 240). Should you be considering an upgrade from your camera to a Leica M or M-P (Typ 240), Customer Care would be pleased to make you an attractive offer following a check of your camera and under consideration of the model and its age.

    If the imaging quality of your camera gives cause for complaint in this respect, we recommend that you send it directly to Leica Customer Care or the authorized Customer Care department of your country’s Leica distributor. As longer waiting times may otherwise occur, the camera should only be sent to Customer Care after prior arrangement.

    Contact: Web site: http://en.leica-camera.com/Service-S...ir-Maintenance. E-mail: [email protected]. Telephone: +49-6441-2080-189.

    For us, it is important that we offer only technically faultless products. We are therefore particularly sorry if the imaging quality of your camera should be adversely affected in any way. We hope that the goodwill arrangement we have decided upon will allow us to remedy the problem as soon as possible and rebuild and maintain the trust you have always placed in our brand.
    Source: https://us.leica-camera.com/World-of...he-CCD-Sensors
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    And a subsequent notice (in writing) from Leica which they sent when the redesigned, corrosion resistant sensors had been developed and were now being used in the replacement of corroded original sensors (mid-2015).

    https://en.leica-camera.com/World-of...on-CCD-sensors

    I am not a lawyer, but you may be correct Godfrey that from a very legalistic perspective, there is no EXPLICIT statement that this written "goodwill" offer to replace the original and defective sensors affected by corrosion, at no cost to the customer, will be offered "in perpetuity". From a legalistic point of view, this offer may not even apply in cases when Leica replaced the original corroded sensor with another admittedly defective sensor which was also susceptible to corrosion, instead of replacing it with the redesigned second generation sensor.

    I guess if a M9 owner was unlucky enough to have their original corroded sensor replaced by another original/first generation sensor before the new-generation sensors were available and then discovered after August 15, 2017 that the replacement sensor had also become corroded, well that is just too bad, Leica is fresh out of "goodwill".

    If a M9 owner with an original sensor that had not shown signs of corrosion happens to move from a dry climate to a humid climate, resulting in corrosion of the original sensor....too bad, despite earlier promises by Leica that "regardless of the age of the camera" Leica would replace the sensor for free, in fact there was an unstated expiration date on Leica's "goodwill". How foolish for that M9 owner to buy a camera and think (mistakenly) that Leica meant what it said and would keep its promise in order to ensure the goodwill of its customers.

    If Leica meant to put an expiration date on the replacement of sensors which they have acknowledged are defective, they should have said so from the beginning, instead of giving people who bought these cameras, even while knowing there was a problem, a false sense of security that Leica stood behind the product and would make things right..."irrespective of the age of the camera".

    Gary
    Last edited by bensonga; 16th May 2017 at 20:01.
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Thank you for providing the links to the Leica statements.

    As I thought, there is no language in the statements implying that the offer of an entirely free (goodwill) replacement service for all M9, MM, and M-E cameras is to remain in perpetuity. "Regardless of the age of the camera" does not imply that; it simply states that, at the time of the announcement of the replacement program, the age of the camera exhibiting the problem would not count as a qualifier for the service.

    Reading the latest announcement, note that it is prefaced with "Following the successfully implemented and largely completed replacement program for corroded sensors that affected ..." et cetera. Remember that Leica knows precisely how many cameras were manufactured with the sensors that can exhibit the corrosion problem and also knows precisely how many of them have already had their sensors updated with the new, corrected sensor cover-glass that will not succumb to this problem. These are both finite numbers—they only manufactured so many cameras that can be prone to failure and they know how many of these liabilities have already been covered with a new sensor. No one else can know these numbers with such precision.

    They obviously find that these numbers are now close enough together to warrant modifying the program to handle the few stragglers that aren't old enough yet to have exhibited the problem free of charge, while at the same time leaving a reasonable option open for cameras that are either very unlikely to exhibit the problem or that have been previously owned by people who are unaffected by it.

    That seems fair and sensible to me. I don't expect any company to offer 100% free remedial service for aging, obsolete products past a reasonable time limit from when they were offered new.

    The good news is that once the 'reasonable time' of five years from new purchase has elapsed, the remedial service will still be available along with a full camera refurbishment AND one-year warranty at an approachable price. I don't know of any other manufacturer who has offered this level of support and service for older electronic products.

    G
    Last edited by Godfrey; 17th May 2017 at 06:46.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    The good news is that once the 'reasonable time' of five years from new purchase has elapsed, the remedial service will still be available along with a full camera refurbishment AND one-year warranty at an approachable price. I don't know of any other manufacturer who has offered this level of support and service for older electronic products.
    G
    Yes, that is good news Godfrey, but regardless of this offer, I think Leica's decision will have an adverse impact on the value of existing cameras which still have the original sensor, due to the uncertainty and risk of additional costs that prospective buyers will face.

    I just cancelled a bid on a very nice condition MM with the original sensor for this reason. If the seller re-lists it for a significantly lower price, I will certainly consider it, but I will now be factoring the sensor replacement costs into my decision.

    Gary

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Yes, that is good news Godfrey, but regardless of this offer, I think Leica's decision will have an adverse impact on the value of existing cameras which still have the original sensor, due to the uncertainty and risk of additional costs that prospective buyers will face.

    I just cancelled a bid on a very nice condition MM with the original sensor for this reason. If the seller re-lists it for a significantly lower price, I will certainly consider it, but I will now be factoring the sensor replacement costs into my decision.

    Gary
    Gary I wholeheartedly have agreed with everything you expressed in this thread amd them some. Its the same sediment experessed by almost every poster on all other major photo sites related to Leica and virtually everyones interpretation of the public statements by Leica previously on the sensor issue. They interpreted it to simply mean Leica would replace corroded sesnors on affected cameras without any preset conditions.

    Sure one can spin all sorts of legalese into the meaning of their words and who knows what would be held up in a court of law, but the overwhelming majority of indiviuals who expressed their views since Leica initially relaeased their statements before the new sensors were ready, plainly and clery interpreted it to simply mean any camera affected at any time and without a time limit, would have their sensor changed out free of charge. Didnt matter how old the camera was or whether the current owner purhased the camera new or used .

    I think that if one now was to purchase a used M9 or MM with the original sensor, the original purchase date of the camera may be more important or as important as anything else.

    A good number of these sensors had the issue from the very start, some even right out of the box new. Not always was it recognized by the original owner or they might not even knew of the issur or what to look for.

    Leica had both the resolution and justly due praise up to now and this move is a big surprise and major disappointment. Nikon learned the hard way of the D600 fiasco and paid dearly for it, and even that issue wasn't as serious as this sensor issue.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Dave, As i understood, it was a threat of legal action from China that made Nikon change its attitude.

    My opinion is that Lica should have issued a recall and fixed every camera they sold.
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Dave, As i understood, it was a threat of legal action from China that made Nikon change its attitude.

    My opinion is that Lica should have issued a recall and fixed every camera they sold.
    I think, although I may be wrong, but I believe Japan also got involved with the Nikon situation too.

    I also agree with you. Even unaffected M9/MM1 cameras should have had a recall and had their sensors replaced proactively. No telling if, when or maybe never, the issue arrises and like I said, for some cameras it was there right out of the box new.

    I should also point out that in all my reading of posted messages here and elsewhere on this issue currently, I've only come across two posters (although there may be more) that are in agreement with Leicas latest statement and offers and both of these individuals do not own any cameras of the M9/MM1 lineage. One can draw their own conclusions.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 17th May 2017 at 11:34.
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    It just could be that Leica has grown up and taken an adult approach to their problems. Instead of taking the hard line approach they took the "customer is always right" approach which was good for us, the customer, but financially devastating for them. I am not saying that this is good for us, the owners of Leica gear. In fact my confidence in Leica as a company is eroding at a rapid pace.

    We knew that if we paid a premium for their goods, we will be taken care of. For many years that was indeed the case, they made good on their defects without stipulations. First it was the S lens exchange for CS lenses that after the CS lenses became available a cutoff date was put in place retroactively. The S lens AF motor once thought to apply to the lifetime of the lens now has a cutoff date. Most recently, the M sensor corrosion has a cutoff date. If you are the CFO of Leica, it assures that the company will not bleed cash for eternity sevicing old cameras at no cost. But the ethics of producing defective goods with no general recall in place leaves me scratching my head wondering what they were thinking.

    So in their adult approach the only way to get satisfaction is to sue them. The only way to fight is with your wallets.
    Al Tanabe
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by bensonga View Post
    Yes, that is good news Godfrey, but regardless of this offer, I think Leica's decision will have an adverse impact on the value of existing cameras which still have the original sensor, due to the uncertainty and risk of additional costs that prospective buyers will face.

    I just cancelled a bid on a very nice condition MM with the original sensor for this reason. If the seller re-lists it for a significantly lower price, I will certainly consider it, but I will now be factoring the sensor replacement costs into my decision.
    I agree that it will reduce the value of un-upgraded cameras by some amount, a percentage of the sensor replacement cost for older ones for sure. But such it is... the true value of a camera is not how much money you can get by selling it but what it can do to make photos for you. I do presume that the reason most folks want these older model Leica Ms still has more to do with them having some unique and special imaging quality that they value a lot than whether they are Leica Ms for the status that the brand affords.

    I personally really don't care at all what my cameras are worth unless I'm buying or selling them. The rest of the time, I don't think about it. They're not an investment: they're tools.

    G

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    An off topic heads up for Godfrey.

    Your website appears to be down.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    ... I also agree with you. Even unaffected M9/MM1 cameras should have had a recall and had their sensors replaced proactively. No telling if, when or maybe never, the issue arrises and like I said, for some cameras it was there right out of the box new.

    I should also point out that in all my reading of posted messages here and elsewhere on this issue currently, I've only come across two posters (although there may be more) that are in agreement with Leicas latest statement and offers and both of these individuals do not own any cameras of the M9/MM1 lineage. One can draw their own conclusions.
    (Bolded) I guess then that you don't consider that this could well have put Leica out of business, never mind been impossible to actually do in a timely way since it takes quite a bit of time to both remanufacture, install, and process all the cameras. Or you don't care. At which point, I wonder if you consider whether they feel the same way about you.

    Regards my ownership of an affected camera, you can draw whatever conclusions you like but given your predisposition I bet that you'd be incorrect in your opinions.

    I had and used the M9 for three years and had ambivalent feelings about its performance long before the sensor corrosion issue surfaced. It would have saved me the better part of $4000 to let Leica repair it FoC, but after testing an M typ 240, I knew the right thing for me would be to take advantage of the trade-in offer and move on to the later model camera. If I'd been as happy with the M9 to begin with as I was with the M-P (and now am with the M-D typ 262), I'd have had them do the service and return it without a moment's thought.

    But I was so encouraged by Leica's taking this bull by the horns and doing the right thing, I bought into their equipment offerings even more deeply, and later went in with them even deeper to buy the SL and M-D. I'm completely satisfied with my gear, and all the other manufacturers' gear I bought and used along the way looking for the right kit is now up for sale. My confidence that Leica will do the right thing on my behalf is very high, thank you.

    G

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    An off topic heads up for Godfrey.

    Your website appears to be down.
    Thanks, but what website are you referring to? The only link I provide to a website nowadays is to my account on flickr.com.

    ... Ah, I looked at my profile and saw that the old link to gdgphoto.com was still there. I've removed it. I closed that website down in 2010.

    G

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Bottom line is a sensor is the heart of a digital camera. When the heart of a $7,000 camera has the the great potential for becoming defective, even unusable in time, where even some were shipped, out of the box with this issue, or sometimes within the early part of its life, thats an issue a company with ethics needs to rectify without cost to the purchaser as they (the buyer) have no control over this costly defect. Its not something that generally occurs 20 years down the road for most. That would be different.

    If they don't want to be proactive and change out all sensors, then at the very least offer a unlimited time frame where they will change out defective sensors. Thats exactly what they appeared to do with their initial "revised" statements approx a year ago. Thats fine too and a good compromise on the costs to the company.

    Except for two people who now do not own any M9/MM1 cameras of this linage, the overwhelming majority of posters have echoed the same sediments as as I outlined. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    The Nikon D600 is a good example what a compnay eventually had to confront (and maybe forced to do), and that dust/oil issue as much as a hassle for some, didn't have the potential to overhelm a sensor and render it useless. Some who clean sesnors regulary also aaid they could live with this but the majority spoke up and it resulted in Nikon (forced or not), to effectively address the issue.

    When Leica 1st issued their guidlines in addressing the M9 sensor issue anout a year ago, it was unexceptable to most users. They spoke up amd Leica quicklt changed the terms. They all praised Leica for soing the right thing until this latest reversal.

    Just because a company doesn't and/or won't adequately provide acceptable recourse, doesn't make it right. You had a Freelander (and I have mine), but read that scathing attack in the Wall Street journal on Land Rover, leaving most USA Freelander owners high and dry. That still didnt get Land Rover USA to budge. For them sales of that vehicle in the States was a drop in the bucket, so why bother.

    I'll stick with the overwhelming majority and their opinions on the current Leica issue with M9/MM1 sensors. Even their offer to part exchange their defective M9/MM1's for an M240 (but not M10) didn't go over well when the output of the current M10 is more to their liking and closer approximates their M9 output and is one of the reasons many did not initially upgrade to the M240. Thats a different issue at this point.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    And I'll be quite happy to disagree with you.

    Leica has done very well with this program. It's not a reversal, it's how to continue it into the future since by the statement of the revision, the service program has already been "... successful and largely complete ...". The revised program simply puts a reasonable cap on the number of free services based on the age of the camera. If you bought your camera more recently than five years before the problem surfaces, they still do the service free of charge if/when it surfaces. It's only if you buy an older camera second hand, presumably inexpensively, that has NOT had the update performed already that they charge you for the service, which includes a general camera refurbishment AND a one-year factory warranty.

    How much flesh do you want from them, Doug?

    G

    "You may take your pound of flesh, but not a single drop of blood." —The Merchant of Venice

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    [QUOTE=Godfrey;730240]And I'll be quite happy to disagree with you.

    Leica has done very well with this program. It's not a reversal, it's how to continue it into the future since by the statement of the revision, the service program has already been "... successful and largely complete ...". The revised program simply puts a reasonable cap on the number of free services based on the age of the camera. If you bought your camera more recently than five years before the problem surfaces, they still do the service free of charge if/when it surfaces. It's only if you buy an older camera second hand, presumably inexpensively, that has NOT had the update performed already that they charge you for the service, which includes a general camera refurbishment AND a one-year factory warranty.

    How much flesh do you want from them, Doug?

    G

    There are those who purchased their M9/MM1 brand new from a authorized Leica dealer and 6 years after their purchase, their sensor shows visable corrosion (although it may have not been readily evident when it first started). No sweat, just shell out $900+ dollars out of pocket to have it fixed (regardless of that extra service which many cameras otherwise wouldn't need).

    Sorry most every original owner would not take kindly to this and many original owners have stated as such. Regardless of what they spent for their their camera and for whatever reason they purchased, many don't consider $900 chump change after assuming the camera they purchased new with their hard earned money, had an unavoidable built in defect and were expected to pay for this. I didn't know their opinion should be based on the financial well being of the company.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Godfrey, Support Leica as much as you want but i would request that you leave out quoting from the Merchant of Venice to defend a German company. It just does not sound good at all.
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Maybe I am wrong in assuming that a camera, any camera, should have a reasonable service life. A manufacturer should take this in consideration when doing design specifications for their camera. They test shutters for lifetime actuations, shouldn't the circuitry, sensor included, be cycle tested as well? A camera sensor cover glass should not corrode or is not expected to corrode under normal use, nor should the cover glass unexpectedly crack for no good reason. My Nikon D1X- 16 years old, still functions, the cover glass is neither corroded or cracked.

    If and only IF Leica had decided to recall ALL of the production M9s regardless of corroded or cracked sensors with a replacement years ago, we would not be having this conversation today. They produced a defective product, they admitted to it, they replaced affected sensors for free when brought to their attention. If they ran a recall at this point, I would applaud them, as it stands it is now a hostile environment where Leica loyalists are rethinking their affinity as myself. I love the look of the images, the glass is the ultimate, but if my Leica camera is good for a few spins around the block and then POOF! I really have to ponder what else is out there. Unlike some Leica owners, I am just a salary man who has to save for my purchases and each purchase needs to last me the lifetime of enjoyment where I set the timeline. I really enjoy my M9, it produces great images, a look that I have not been able to duplicate with other cameras. I had planned on it to be my last digital M
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I personally really don't care at all what my cameras are worth unless I'm buying or selling them. The rest of the time, I don't think about it. They're not an investment: they're tools.
    G
    It is indeed only in the buying or selling that I care about what a camera/lens is worth too Godfrey. Since I rarely sell any of my photo equipment, it is really just the buying.

    As regards the selling, with all the cameras you have sold recently and plan to sell in your simplification/down sizing, I would think you might be a little more sympathetic to the Leica owner, perhaps not as well off as yourself, who may now find the value of his/her M9/MM etc rapidly falling, thanks to this change in Leica's program, just as he/she was trying to sell it.

    As others have said....IMHO, Leica should have either issued a recall for ALL cameras potentially affected by this defect or left the original program in place.

    Gary
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Additionally, imagine those who own both a M9 and a MM1 and at some point have to shell out $2,000! There are quite a few I know who already had both of these cameras they own suffer from sensor corrosion and sometimes multiple times for each to the same camera becuase the sensors were replaced with the same original sensor (new ones were not available yet).

    When a company does the right thing that most expect, the majority dont take advantage of the situation but lends what support they can to insure the future success of the company.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    I see no point to debating this any further.
    I'm quite comfortable with what Leica is doing and am certain it is the right thing. If they bow to public pressure and change policy again to what the entitled users think they should, the company will suffer.

    As regards the selling, with all the cameras you have sold recently and plan to sell in your simplification/down sizing, I would think you might be a little more sympathetic to the Leica owner, perhaps not as well off as yourself, who may now find the value of his/her M9/MM etc rapidly falling, thanks to this change in Leica's program, just as he/she was trying to sell it.
    Sorry, but no. I've sold all my 21 pieces of Nikon gear now. Most returned about what I expected, some didn't quite make the numbers I wanted, others made slightly higher numbers. All in all, I got what I expected out of it once I reviewed what actual prices for the gear I had were like. No surprises. When you're selling, you have to accept what the market is willing to offer at the time you're going to sell, that's all. And if you're playing with expensive photo gear without being able to afford the fact that it sometimes needs repair and often does not hold its value very well, well, that's a foolish thing to do IMO.

    Doing a total recall of all potentially affected cameras whether or not they needed a sensor ... say for grins 50,000 units at around €1300 per sensor, never mind development time and money and all the other bits needed ... never mind again insufficient personnel and production capacity to do the work! ... would have almost certainly put Leica Camera out of business. I'm happy they didn't go that route.

    G

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    I personally find it strange when the term entitlement is used in the context in the post above. Its as though owners are asking for a handout. I and I'm sure many many others when they purchase a $7,000 camera new and the most major part of that camera is subject to early failure, don't consider it entitlement in having the manufacturer take responsibilty and rectify the situation free of charge. I'm certain they refer to that as a "reasonable expectation". I know I would.

    No one said Leica "must" be proactive and swap out every old sensor (although it would give peace of mind), but at the very least not put a time limit on changing out defective sensors when they corrode without charging the consumer. Thats the responsible thing to do and the cost of doing business when a defective product is released and subject to early failure of the heart of a $7,000 camera, namely its sensor.

    I also don't agree with the argument that if one scrimps and saves for an expensive camera, they should expect expensive repairs or shouldn't be buying such equipment...not when the needed repair is due to a defective manufactured part. That responsibilty I believe lies with the manufacturer not the consumer and how rich or poor the buyer is has nothing to do with this.

    Again the financial hit unfortunately in a case like this belongs to the manufacturer. The consumer didn't precipiate this issue. Nikon thought along the lines of Leica and they ultimately were proven wrong and had to pony up the price. People spoke up and apparently in Nikon's situation, some sort of regulatory body intervined, rightfully so, and insisted or forced Nikon to be responsible for its problematic situation and rectify it.

    People with defective Nikon D600's weren't concerned with the financial hit Nikon would take. They just wanted what was rightfully theirs and what they paid for, a non defective camera. In Nikon's case it wasn't even sensor failure but the constant egress of oil and dust on the sensor and not all cameras were affected either. Yet they (Nikon) was held responsible for addressing each and every D600 manufactured. The size of each respective company has nothing to do with their responsibilty to the situation.

    I admire both of these companies (or I wouldn't use their products), but admiration extends far beyond the products themselves. Its how they handle situations as the ones we are discussing. The similarities between the two situations these companies encountered with regards to problematic sensors right out of the box, so to speak and how they initially tried to handle it, is quite remarkable and telling.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Godfrey likes Leica. Hooray! Godfrey wants the company to succeed and be profitable. WaHoo!

    So do I

    To succeed as an admittedly high-end, ultra-premium priced imaging company in the digital age, they have to employ "high touch" customer relations to foster loyalty and long term health. From the reaction to this announcement (following a similar one regarding the S-lens AF issue), Leica seems to at best be partially absolving themselves of responsibility for known engineering and/or R&D testing faults ... and it seems this is NOT going over well with the faithful.

    If, as Godfrey speculates, a majority of M9/ME/M9-MM sensors have been fixed (which I do not believe for a minute), then what actuarial exposure would the company really have to absorb?

    No sir, I believe they are doing this because there ARE many cameras that have not been fixed since the permanent sensor was developed. I bought my MM in late 2012 and it showed signs of corrosion early 2017. I other words it took well over 4 years to manifest itself. I have inside info that it is NOT a matter of when a M9/MM sensor fails, it is when.

    Similarly, the limits to fixing the S AF issue was announced shortly after the permanent replacement was announced. Virtually every S and CS lens made since the S system shipped is vulnerable to AF failure sooner or later ... not IF, but WHEN.

    We can look at these facts from different perspectives:

    1) We want Leica to do well, and find it reasonable that they are limiting their financial exposure.

    2) We do not find it reasonable that a MM originally costing $8,000, and S/CS lenses that cost upwards of $7,500+, have built-in limits to their life and usefulness. Like it or not, when people buy Leica, there are certain expectations built from previous experience, plus their elitist brand positioning and marketing of the brand.

    Like Godfrey, I find the value of any gear purchase (be it camera, lens, strobe, etc.) to be in its usage, not as an investment in anything other than my own making photographs professionally or privately.

    My selection of the M Monochrome and Leica S System was based on those ideals. With-in reason, I don't care if the stuff depreciates ... as long as, with proper use and maintenance, it works.

    Unfortunately, Leica will skate on this because they can't make M10s fast enough, and apparently the SL and lens set seems to be doing well. IMO, their financial heath is not threatened by the promised good-faith coverage that they should be offering on their previous products given the egregious failures associated with them. Most take such promises on their face value, and do not run to a lawyer to interpret the "weasel wording".

    I'm okay since my MM has the new sensor ... and I'll deal with the S AF issues as they manifest themselves. The MM results are unique to my eye, ditto my S(006) and S lenses. I was considering a M10 but need to reserve the gear budget to fix Leica's mistakes.

    My sympathy is with the owners not the company because to let this go means it is acceptable in future ... hope the M10 doesn't have some latent issue, or that some lens issue doesn't crop up on the SL three or four years into its life.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    I am with Marc on this one. If Leica would know that they have replaced the majority of the old sensors with new ones, why stop the program now. Makes no sense. If you went 90% of the way, you don't stop to piss off your customers. I have an M9 (where the sensor has been replaced but I fear with an old one) and a MM where it has not been replaced. I am considering selling them (as I now have the M10) but have been holding off because prices are very low. Bad decision, because the latest announcement just knocked aprox. 1000 EUR off the value of each of them.

    I also have a bunch of S glass. As I was an early adopted of the system (I got four lenses in 2011), several of my lenses are 5+ years old. So far I had only one lense developing the autofocus problem. I have a date with my dealer to put all my lenses on a S007 (I shoot with the S006) to check whether they are ok.

    As we all know, this is not normal wear and tear but a design fault. If you sell a premium brand (asking for premium prices), you should fix these in a appropriate manner. Leica originally did that. And then they switched gear.

    I am fortunate enough that, from a financial point of view, I don't have to loose sleep over that. But it bloody enois me. And I fear that the reputational damage to Leica is much bigger and costly than a continuation of the original solutions.
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by GMB View Post
    I fear that the reputational damage to Leica is much bigger and costly than a continuation of the original solutions.
    I agree....they have really blown it with this move. I hope it is not a sign of how they will handle future design or manufacturing defects, should they occur, but it probably is so.

    Gary
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    I bet there are still a lot of older M9s out there with sensor deterioration of some sort, and Leica would like to collect about 1000 EUR for doing refurbs. The M9 is still a fine camera, and with a fresh warranty, I suspect a CCD M9 will be an easier sell than a CMOS M240 of slightly lesser age. I just heard from them that my M9 (purch 2009), which would appear to be working fine but does have possible bad spots on the sensor, is eligible if I get it to them before Aug 15, so I'll do that.

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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Mine will be shipped to them tomorrow.

    I want to record that their customer service over the phone was very nice (complimentaryry on the Deutsch as well!) and helpful!
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Mine will be shipped to them tomorrow.

    I want to record that their customer service over the phone was very nice (complimentaryry on the Deutsch as well!) and helpful!
    I read on a Facebook group that someone from Switzerland sent and had their M9 fixed and returned inside of a week or so. This is good thing.

    The troubling this is that I owned both a M9 and M9-P which both ended up having the sensors replaced before I dumped them. My M9 sensor was replaced after about a little over 7,000 shots. It only took 864 for my M9-P needing a sensor replacement. I like using rangefinders but Leica costs entirely too much to have upwards of $30,000 of unreliable camera gear for my blood between bodies and lenses.

    It's a shame that people are siding with the company over the customers. I certainly hope they don't have to endure poor service, crooked business practices that don't stand behind the product, and if they do I hope they have enough integrity and compassion to apologize to those unfairly affected by Leica's decision.
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    Re: Leica Modifies/Ends Free Sensor Replacement Program for M9/M9P/ME/MM Bodies

    6-8 weeks is the estimate, Tre. I don't mind that. I hope it goes without much problem.

    It is only a handful of self appointed and misguided defenders of the company that do more damage to the company.

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