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Thread: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

  1. #51
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Nice images Jack but you can't get more digital looking than this, on the screen at least. Everything seems to have been shot with an IR converted camera and highly pp'd, they're great but definitely not film like!
    I didn't say they looked like film. What I said was that I felt it was an example of good digital B&W's. And I agree that some look over processed like bad dodge and burn, but many look very good to me. I do however respect that other's opinions may vary on that

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  2. #52
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I didn't say they looked like film. What I said was that I felt it was an example of good digital B&W's.

    Sorry Jack, since the thread was about film look, I misinterpreted your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    And I agree that some look over processed like bad dodge and burn, but many look very good to me. I do however respect that other's opinions may vary on that

    Cheers,
    I agree, many look good to me too and they probably print better that what we see here too.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by simonclivehughes View Post
    Helen,

    I highly recommend Nik's Silver Efex Pro for the B&W conversions. It's pretty much all I use now.

    Cheers,
    +1

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by TRSmith View Post
    My own personal opinion (and I know others will disagree) is that no digital photographer should be operating without a solid understanding of Photoshop. And if you're shooting the M8, C1 is also a must have. Both programs are entire fields of study unto themselves. Together they can make M8 files really shine. Silver Efex Pro as a plugin to Photoshop can make your B&W dreams come true.
    Hi Tim
    I certainly disagree. I know and understand Photoshop and C1 very well, and I NEVER use either with the M8 (well, I only use photoshop for panoramas and the like).

    I use Aperture with the M8, and if I want black and white (usually) then I use Silver efex pro. It takes half an hour to learn, produces stellar results, and doesn't break the DAM advantages of Aperture.

    Why make things complex . . . . .

    Just this guy you know

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    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Hi Tim
    I certainly disagree.
    I actually had you in mind when I typed that. Your approach works very well for you.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    What's interesting here is the titanic struggle with the tools this all is. Daunting. Seems to get in the way a lot. (To maintain perspective, I had to dig back into the distant past and recall the difficulties of learning film.)

    I think some excellent philosophical points have been made here ... refreshing to see an intelligent discussion on what usually is a polarizing subject. Thought provoking.

    Helen, you are not alone in questioning your affair with the M8. Try as I might, I cannot connect with it either. The magic evaporated when I sold my M film cameras. I'm pretty good with many of the post processing tools available and couldn't be more digitally oriented. Like anyone, I could stand to learn more, but I already know 10 years worth ... however, when it comes to the M8 that knowledge doesn't make any difference for me. In the end, I always saw the world in B&W when a film M was in my hands. Perhaps that's a stumbling block I will never overcome ... or may never want to.

    Frankly, I see most digital B&W and wince. Not because it isn't film, but because I don't connect with it emotionally on an aesthetic level as an artist. I keep seeking that Digital Holy Grail to no avail. In the process, I did discover some things I did like with digital B&W, but nothing that moved me in the same manner.

    So, I just let digital be digital, and turn to film when I want that shimmering beauty and unfathomable blacks that eludes even the most ingenious digital mavens. To me the M8 need not be a B&W camera ... in fact it isn't. Releasing it from that unfair comparison may allow you to then connect with it. For me, I think it's to late

    Just one person's perspective.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Helen,

    One other point re digital B&W. Here is a link I'd like you to explore. It's landscape work, not street, but the images speak volumes. It was actually this guy that convinced me that digital could do respectable B&W; before these images I felt traditional B&W emulsion was the only way to get great B&W.

    Oh, and his camera? A Sony R1 -- serious: http://www.mitchdobrowner.com/
    I dig it
    Mike

    website under construction

  8. #58
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    If leica wanted to they could bring out a camera witha black and white sensor,what difference would that make,I know kodak did this a few years ago.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Helen,

    I never shot an M film body, so I come at this from purely the digital age.

    Lately, I've been processing more and more of my M8 files in B&W, and really enjoy the look. I'm not sure how it compares to the M film B&W look that you are striving for, but it's still a nice look in my opinion.

    I do all my B&W processing in LR2 (same processing engine and techniques as the ACR - Adobe Camera Raw engine that is in Photoshop CS4). It only takes me ~2 minutes or less per file to create a nice processed image from my M8 dng file.

    If you'd like to learn that method, we can start a thread for this in the Image Processing forum, and I'll do my best to show you how I do it.

    Here are a few examples...
    Mike Hatam
    Sony A99, RX1, RX100

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    Senior Subscriber Member Mike Hatam's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    And a few more...
    Mike Hatam
    Sony A99, RX1, RX100

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    mike: those are great shots, nicely done in b/w!

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Irakly had a neat technique or B&W conversions using Lightroom. If you don't go as extreme as he does, they also look like pretty normal film shots.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showth...ight=Lightroom

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Here is one using Irakly's technique, but not to the extreme.


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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    What happen to Irakly? I haven't seen him on this forum for a while...I always liked his work.
    Mike

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  15. #65
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Its becoming clear that digital is as much an attitude to life as it is a way of taking photos

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    I have not personally seen them, but a friend has and said they were "impressive" for having come from such a little camera
    I thought I recognized the name. He had his portfolios printed in Lenswork in #69 (Mar/Apr 07) and #79 (Nov/Dec 08) I think they are also in the Lenswork extended 79 also. Some may prefer to see them printed--Lenswork does a good job with printed monos and they tone (actually they are duotones) them which adds IMO.

    Diane

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Rob:

    We were on that "walk" together in Puerto Rico and I used this image to teach B&W conversion techniques in LR or ACR without hitting CS. And the technique is very similar to Irakly's

    Here is my version from that morning:




    EDIT: For giggles, I just re-opened the original M8 RAW and processed it in C1 to compare to my LR result above. Note i processed it to taste instead of trying to duplicate the look. Interesting to me to see how my perception has changed and the difference between the conversions. This file is as it came straight out of C1, even down to the jpeg conversion:



    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Senior Member ecliffordsmith's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Hi Helen,

    Do you have any scanned examples of the sort of qualities you are not quite getting with your M8 please?

    Personally I only use C1 as I do not have Photoshop so any changes I make during conversion are global. I have no idea whether my results are film like but I am usually happy with them.

    All the best.

  19. #69
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Rob:

    We were on that "walk" together in Puerto Rico and I used this image to teach B&W conversion techniques in LR or ACR without hitting CS. And the technique is very similar to Irakly's

    Here is my version from that morning:




    EDIT: For giggles, I just re-opened the original M8 RAW and processed it in C1 to compare to my LR result above. Note i processed it to taste instead of trying to duplicate the look. Interesting to me to see how my perception has changed and the difference between the conversions. This file is as it came straight out of C1, even down to the jpeg conversion:



    Cheers,
    My vote goes for the Adobe version by a huge margin, it has a lot more atmosphere than the C1 version which looks like something from an average p&s camera to me. Yes, good processing goes a long way, that's just as true in the digital darkroom as it is in the wet one.

  20. #70
    Subscriber Member TRSmith's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    LR seems to have handled the sky portion of the image much better. Look at the leaves against the sky in the top-center of the image.

    Also, after a closer look, I have a better understanding for the man's chosen position. Check out that bicycle seat. Ouch!

  21. #71
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    The first version looks slightly more natural,the second more over processed.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    For B&W processing, I prefer LR2/CS4 over C1, as there's a greater and easier control of tonality.

    I prefer C1 for high ISO (640 and above) color processing. For lower ISO color processing, I choose LR2 just because it's quicker/easier for me, although C1 is at least as good, if not slightly better.
    Mike Hatam
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    I think you guys are nutz The mid and shadow tones in my LR conversion are not realistic IMO. But then we all have different tastes for what makes good B&W, and I happen to like lots of contrast

    Cheers,
    Jack
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    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    C1 if my vote counts for anything the mid tones are mud in the LR version
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Jack try c1 with the panchromatic filter than do the color editor and play around for giggles . Show them how you can change the tones in each color like we did in Moab
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Jack - I agree - I like your C1 conversion better than your LR conversion.

    But I think you could get that type of contrast with LR as well (and probably quicker/easier) if you were trying for that look when you used LR.

    Mike
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  27. #77
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    C1 if my vote counts for anything the mid tones are mud in the LR version
    Mud? MUd? MUD? no way! Look at the texture and detail on the tress, the bike cranks, the bike itself, and lets not forget the lovelier and warmer detail, easy to get more contrast without destroying any detail in the LR/PS image too.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    That back wall looks really flat to me but I do like punch in my shots . I'm a old zone system junkie
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    All looks digital to my eye. Oh wait ... it IS digital ...

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Marc:

    Hold on, I'll add a few pixels radius of blur and some noise and they'll look more like film!




    (kidding of course -- there definitely is something tangible and preferable to B&W film )
    Jack
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Interesting thread.

    Helen,
    Did you get the M8 for a specific reason? Well, you know I'm a film freak but why don't you just continue with the M2 as you seem to get along very well together:-)

    Digital black and white is no easy task when you have had experience with film as there always seem to be something missing and you just can't describe it. I also use aperture and I have tried the silverefex pro which was really nice but in the end I was never really satisfied. I have since decided to enjoy BW film instead of battling with softwares and plugins. I even bought a Durst enlarger recently!!

    Good luck.
    William
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Marc:

    Hold on, I'll add a few pixels radius of blur and some noise and they'll look more like film!




    (kidding of course -- there definitely is something tangible and preferable to B&W film )
    I was playing around with a high contrast shot last night and noticed the clarity slider in lightroom urns to blur if you set it to negative values. I have not used clarity in the past, so I don't know if this is something new.

    Robert

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Here is one done with the Irakly method, with a few changes. It was kind of grainy/gritty anyway because of the smoke and 1250iso. I made it worse by turning noise reduction off in Lightroom and later sharpening in Photoshop. At 100% the noise actually looks a lot like film grain.

    This had the black slide up near 100%, lots of fill and clarity and then a custom curve.


  34. #84
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flesher View Post
    Marc:

    Hold on, I'll add a few pixels radius of blur and some noise and they'll look more like film!




    (kidding of course -- there definitely is something tangible and preferable to B&W film )

  35. #85
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Looks like digital transparently masquerading as film

    BTW, you should see Irakly's film work.

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by emmawest72 View Post
    Interesting thread.

    Helen,
    Did you get the M8 for a specific reason? Well, you know I'm a film freak but why don't you just continue with the M2 as you seem to get along very well together:-)

    Digital black and white is no easy task when you have had experience with film as there always seem to be something missing and you just can't describe it. I also use aperture and I have tried the silverefex pro which was really nice but in the end I was never really satisfied. I have since decided to enjoy BW film instead of battling with softwares and plugins. I even bought a Durst enlarger recently!!

    Good luck.
    Well I did it ..... its now Film all the way
    I've joined your 'Film Freak' Club William

    There is something so satisfying about Developing my own Film
    (Flawed as it is.....)

    and NOT sitting in front of a Computer doing PP

    I prefer to Adorn my Walls
    with 'Atmospheric' B&W Treasures
    and MY Favorite work has been on Film

    Just got a 35 1971 Canadian Cron
    and starting to appreciate the 35 Frame of Mind

    I Don't know how to put it
    but it breathes and seems more Real
    It may be Harder Work but for me its Worth it...

    I Will still PEEK & ADMIRE my M8 Friends
    Best To ALL...

  37. #87
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    All kidding aside (I WAS kidding, except the part about seeing Irakly's film works).

    I'm a confirmed digital user. Certifiable actually. No going back to being a film purist.

    But it cheeses me off that I can't get the B&W look I want. And I haven't seen it from very many others either.

    One observation I've had is that B&W film almost effortlessly produces that graphic snap ... where the whites look whiter but still have tone, and the blacks blacker with detail still apparent ... all without sacrificing the middle tones.

    Now this can't be just because it's film ... scans are digital. So, it seems to me that it should be doable with digital capture using the right recipe. (Either that, or all the stuff about dynamic range of the digital capture is a load.)

    This is pretty important to me, because my primary subject matter is wearing all white and all black

    Actually, I don't think film necessarily fairs all that well on the web ... or a computer screen for that matter. It's the prints ... even scanned film ... it's still the prints.

    But here are two very similar situational shots ... the digital shot on the bottom looks pretty good ... yet the film shot looks a bit more "snappy" ... at least to my eye ... and especially in print.

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    Senior Member helenhill's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Well Marc
    The First Shot says it ALL ... Pop .Snappy, Spot On Crisp

    The trousers in the 2nd shot
    hardly give that Beautiful Blk contrast against the White however I DO LOVE the Reflection in the Glass

  39. #89
    nei1
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Hold on, I'll add a few pixels radius of blur and some noise and they'll look more like film!


    Dont think that"ll help


    Jack ,have you ever used a monochrome back?I saw theres a mf back made by megavision,what sort of resuts would that give,? thanks...........Neil

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Quote Originally Posted by helenhill View Post
    Well I did it ..... its now Film all the way
    I've joined your 'Film Freak' Club William

    There is something so satisfying about Developing my own Film
    (Flawed as it is.....)

    and NOT sitting in front of a Computer doing PP

    I prefer to Adorn my Walls
    with 'Atmospheric' B&W Treasures
    and MY Favorite work has been on Film

    Just got a 35 1971 Canadian Cron
    and starting to appreciate the 35 Frame of Mind

    I Don't know how to put it
    but it breathes and seems more Real
    It may be Harder Work but for me its Worth it...

    I Will still PEEK & ADMIRE my M8 Friends
    Best To ALL...
    Wait are you saying that you sold the M8????

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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    I'm not sure what the hubub is about the M8 and black and white. I think the M8 does B&W as well, or as poorly, as any digital camera. Better than most IMO. I think it's an issue of digital B&W and how the tonal curve is different from film. It's different; it's better, it's worse, it's both. It's different. If you are hooked on film, digital is not for you. My main criticism of digital B&W is that the sensors are so sensitive you never get a deep "endless" black, like that produced by clear film base. Even in dark nightclub jazz shots the deepest shadows have readable detail. In my expereience M8 files can be made to look ok (to me). I use ACR/CS4 workflow. Below are a few M8 black and white files. [Mike: I love your portraits!]

    Scratch that. I attached 4 files and previewed them and they all looked oversharpened into Rice Krispies territory. Jack, does the upload process here compress/re-compress upload files? My jpegs look fine on my screen and french-fried after being uploaded.

    Kent

  42. #92
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Hi Kent:


    Note that the GetDPI Gallery software and the forum software are two separate items, merged together in the background on the servers, and do treat images quite differently. If you use "attach" instead of a link to a gallery, the forum's simple upload software automatically down-sizes the attacahment to 900 pixels and uses a pretty simple engine to do that. If you use our free gallery, the software will generate three files -- a native size, a thumb and a 900 pixel version, but here the gallery's engine is quite good and does not deliver the rice-crispies the forum's simple attach engine does. So,

    1) IF you are going to use "attach" then my suggestion is to process the file optimally to 900 pixels in your image editor FIRST.

    2) Or use our free gallery to first upload images of any size and then link to them using the image link button in the thread post tool bar.


    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  43. #93
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    Thanks Jack, I appreciate the update. Here then are a couple of M8 black and white images.

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/show...c=5&userid=201

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/show...c=5&userid=201

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/show...c=5&userid=201

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/show...c=5&userid=201

    http://forum.getdpi.com/gallery/show...c=5&userid=201

    Admin Note: I am editing your post to embed them directly. Note that in the links above, there are two pre-generated URL's beneath each image. The first is the actual image URL to embed directly as I did below using the icon or IMG tags, then a thumb-link that if inserted automatically posts a linkable thumbnail to the image in the gallery -- I added one for the last image as an example :












  44. #94
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
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    Re: The MAGIC & ALLURE of the M8.....Is it For REAL

    And PS: Your conversions look great to me as is! But if you want a bit more of that film look, you can kill of the very low shadow detail by sliding your ACR/LR black slider up to around 6 or 8, which also boosts contrast a bit more too...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

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