M10 ordered in early Feb just came in...do I still want it?

[airfrogusmc]

Actually there have been people saying it is to stiff or awkward and I was just saying that I don't find it to be.

As far as it being as nice as the MD I'm sure that its not but I'm sure with sales of the M 262 MD there there will be an M10 MD and I have read that probably an M 10 MM next year.

 

[jlindstrom]

Usually I set my iso once, when I start taking photos at any given location. Select, lock in place and be done with it - works great. If I need to change it, can do it in a pinch.

If I can estimate beforehand that I need to be changing the iso several times, I just leave the knob in the upper position. It’s in a place, where accidental knocks are not likely.

Operating like this, the slight stiffnes of unlocking the wheel doesn’t matter at all.

I the whole thing grew into a problem, because internet reviewers had the camera for couple of days and wrote the complaints based on too little experience. When you combine that to a large portion of customer base being hobbyists and internet besserwissers (like me :salute, you easily get complaints. People had in their mind already when buying that iso-wheel sucks.

Now, the people who have actually been open minded about it and have been shooting with the M10 for a while now aren’t complaining.

So actually the real reviews that will the the story are those ”one year with the M10” reviews, which should start popping up soon’ish.

As a whole, I have a hard time finding things to complain about with the M10. It just feels like a very natural M camera and performs great.

 

[jonoslack]

What's interesting is on the Hasselblad X1D, there is a recessed button on the top plate of that camera whereby with a slight, light downward press, it pops up. Then with a light press in the downward direction, it clicks closed. I would have thought Leica could have easily implemented the same thing for the ISO dial. With eye looking into the M10 viewfinder, ones left index finger could lightly press the ISO dial and it could pop up. Then simply rotate it and when done, press lightly downwards to lock into place...all without having to remove ones eye from the viewfinder.

The X1D implemented this pop up dial perfectly and Leica could take a cue from its design for an ISO dial. I don't recall what its function was on the X1D but once you have an opportunity to see how this X1D dial works, I think most would be convienced how elegant a solution it could be for future M10 ISO dial.

Dave (D&A)

Hi there Dave
The philosophy behind the M10 ISO dial (as I understand it) was that either you would want your ISO fixed/auto . . Or you were in a situation where you changed it from shot to shot. . .

So, when pressed down it’s locked (to whatever you chose) - if you think you’re going to want to change the ISO frequently on a shoot you pull the dial up and leave it that way (and the red line shows you the situation).

I like it, but of course you can argue in another direction (Leica were certainly aware of the method of locking it with a button in the middle . . But you can quite easily do that accidentally)

Whatever!

 

[jonoslack]

No one who uses the camera is saying they dislike it, there is just concern about the numerous cases of it failing. I like it a lot and hope mine continues to work fine.

By the way, I got my black Leica logo from DAG last night so I got to adjust my vertical RF back to working correctly and put the new logo on. When I was doing this, I took the time to compare the M240 shutter noise to the M10. The M10 is actually a bit quieter than the M240, just slightly higher pitched.

The vertical RF being out was brutal, I tried to use it on a job yesterday and just could not hit focus. Now it is perfect and so is focus every time. Amazing what a difference that makes.

View attachment 129508

It looks great with the black dot - and glad you sorted out your vertical. . . Hopefully with a build date of August your ISO button is safe . . .Me? I have two cameras, one dating from this January, and one from June 2016 - I haven’t had an ISO dial problem yet!

 

[D&A]

Hi there Dave
The philosophy behind the M10 ISO dial (as I understand it) was that either you would want your ISO fixed/auto . . Or you were in a situation where you changed it from shot to shot. . .

So, when pressed down it’s locked (to whatever you chose) - if you think you’re going to want to change the ISO frequently on a shoot you pull the dial up and leave it that way (and the red line shows you the situation).

I like it, but of course you can argue in another direction (Leica were certainly aware of the method of locking it with a button in the middle . . But you can quite easily do that accidentally)

Whatever!

Hi Jono,

There were probably many ways Leica could have approached this (the ISO dial). For years I simply used cameras whereby one held the outer edges of the shutter speed dial located on the top plate and lifted it slightly and rotated it to desired ISO setting and then simply released it. It was a standard method on many brands of film DSLR's for years. One could do it without removing eye from viewfinder and if the camera had a ISO indicator in the viewfinder, it was about as simple and easy as it gets. The only problem I could see is it was usually on the right hand side of the top plate, the same side the cameras grip was, so one would have to switch hands holding their camera body.
for those that don't use auto ISO, I just thought Leica could have implemented changing ISO on the fly when necessary, in a somewhat easier manner.

Dave (D&A)

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Jono,

There were probably many ways Leica could have approached this (the ISO dial). For years I simply used cameras whereby one held the outer edges of the shutter speed dial located on the top plate and lifted it slightly and rotated it to desired ISO setting and then simply released it. It was a standard method on many brands of film DSLR's for years. One could do it without removing eye from viewfinder and if the camera had a ISO indicator in the viewfinder, it was about as simple and easy as it gets. The only problem I could see is it was usually on the right hand side of the top plate, the same side the cameras grip was, so one would have to switch hands holding their camera body.
for those that don't use auto ISO, I just thought Leica could have implemented changing ISO on the fly when necessary, in a somewhat easier manner.

Dave (D&A)

Hi Dave
Well, interesting - but on film cameras it was really an exposure compensation dial (you can’t change the ISO of film!).

. . And there is nothing to stop you pulling up the ISO dial and leaving it up (I do it quite often), in which case you’re unlikely to change it by mistake but have no restraint.

Like all these things it takes time to get used to the implementation, but there isn’t really a wrong or right way.

 

[D&A]

Hi Dave
Well, interesting - but on film cameras it was really an exposure compensation dial (you can’t change the ISO of film!).

. . And there is nothing to stop you pulling up the ISO dial and leaving it up (I do it quite often), in which case you’re unlikely to change it by mistake but have no restraint.

Like all these things it takes time to get used to the implementation, but there isn’t really a wrong or right way.

Jono, what I described in my post above of the lifting the edge of the shutter speed dial in order to change the ASA (ISO), was how it was done on many film SLR's. It was how the ASA (ISO) was set on those cameras and since the M10 has a shutter speed dial on the top plate in the same position as many of these film SLR's, they could have incorporated changing the ISo in the same manor.

Alternatively the M10 ISO dial on the M10 is fine but a easier use of the dial may have pleased more users. In fact, don't even make it a lift up dial but simply have good detents when turning its knurled edge to change ISO while its in it's "down" position. I don't believe it would accidently be changed in use unless it spun too freely. Again we all have our preferences and do appreciate your comments.

Dave (D&A)

 

[jlindstrom]

Dave, do you have a M10?

Don’t want to sound patronizing, but either our opinions are just million miles a part or you haven’t extensively used one.

As myself and Jono said, there’s nothing difficult or hard about using the ISO dial in practise. I was a sceptic as well, before getting my hands on one.

It really is that simple: if you plan to change ISO, leave it up and you’ll be fine. If don’t, leave it locked as is. If it’s up, you can change ISO without taking your eye off the VF. It’s easy enough to count the clicks or just adjust until desired exposure is shown.

I don’t bother counting. The knowledge of exact ISO means nothing during shooting (to me). I’m only conserned about suitable exposure, so I set my desired speed & aperture and if need be, adjust ISO until I get the exposure needed.

During day time it’s usually locked at ISO 100.

I don’t recall ever missing a shot due to ISO dial implementation.

 

[D&A]

I've used a colleagues M10 quite extensively since one month after they were 1st made available and am quite familiar with how to use, implement and decide on changing ISO, whether it be the M10 or any other camera (be it Leica or some other brand). Lets just say I've been actively shooting since around 1960. There have been others who own/use the M10 and also felt its ISO dial "also" could have been better implemented. As for actively knowing what ISO a camera is set to, can often be critical depending what digital camera I am shooting with and also whether image capture is for personal or professional use.

So for my own requirements, knowledge of the ISO set often is very important, including changing it on the fly in a expedient manner in some fast moving critical situations. Opinions regarding the ISO dial and its implementation on the M10 is subjective and unfortunately criticism of a Leica product often brings on strong responses and that's to be expected. Let me just add that I respect the opinion of others if they are content and pleased with the M10's ISO dial. It's only one small (but sometimes important) facet of an entirely "fine" camera. Like flavor of ice cream, tastes and preferences can and will vary.

Dave (D&A)

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

Hi there Dave
(Leica were certainly aware of the method of locking it with a button in the middle . . But you can quite easily do that accidentally)

Whatever!

I use several cameras whose knobs have a locking button. I find it takes twice as long to change such settings because first I have to figure out whether the button is locked down or not. For a camera which should be used easily without removing it from your eye, this ISO control makes sense to me.

 

[jonoslack]

I've used a colleagues M10 quite extensively since one month after they were 1st made available and am quite familiar with how to use, implement and decide on changing ISO, whether it be the M10 or any other camera (be it Leica or some other brand). Lets just say I've been actively shooting since around 1960. There have been others who own/use the M10 and also felt its ISO dial "also" could have been better implemented. As for actively knowing what ISO a camera is set to, can often be critical depending what digital camera I am shooting with and also whether image capture is for personal or professional use.

Dave (D&A)

Hi There Dave
The solution is easy - pull it up and leave it up - when you change the ISO value it flashes up in the rangefinder (so you will actively know). If you want to ensure that it stays up all the time then wrap a rubber band around it and it won't go down.

Of course, there are lots of different ways that this could have been implemented (I think the shutter speed dial is a really bad idea as you're likely to change the shutter speed (for example from A to B) whilst changing the ISO . .

I generally use Auto ISO or else the Menu option (with ISO set in my user profiles). I don't normally want it to change during a shoot, especially accidentally, so a lock is a good idea - I've been using the centre button lock on my Fuji X-T2 and I found it irritating in that I would often try and rotate the dial and the button was down . . or it was up and I did it by mistake.

There's all sorts of different ways of judging these things, but I think that this solution is well thought out and it works for me. . . . and others - each method has it's upside and downside depending on what you want.

best

 

[D&A]

I think I might be slightly misundsrstood regarding the M10 ISO dial. I have no qualms about the ISO dial being placed where it is currently, but felt like some other users that when actively shooting, the raising of the ISO dial could have been implemented in a fashion that was easier/faster. The X1D spring loaded pop up dial would have been one way to accomplish this. Yes leaving it up would work too but as the M camera is designed to not only functional but elegant in form and function, I dont think it being left in the up position quite meets that criteria. Again this is only one small but important element of an entire camera and as we all can agree, not every feature of every camera is going to be 100% satisfactory to everyone. The same has held true for the M240, M9 etc and to this day, opinions of function, features and/or output of these cameras vary.

Keep in mind how one shoots, their requirements and under what conditions plays a important role, and sometimes we religate our thoughts and opinions based on this.

Not to get off topic of the ISO dial but years ago I was fairly critical of a particular new model of an otherwise excellent Pentax DSLR that severly misfocused (AF) under certain wavelengths and types of stage lighting. Some new owners of this camera took offense of comments made and saw nothing wrong with the AF of their cameras (same model). Of course their use of their camera widely differed from mine. It simply came down to use of the camera under these particular conditions and manual focus unfortunately was not an option for this endeavor. Pentax eventually both privately and publically acknowledged the issue.

Point is we all sometimes have particular preferences or requirements for a given function of a camera (or how it is implemented), which may be different from another. I dont believe its a question of right or wrong but what might work well for one, might not work so well for another.

Dave (D&A)

 

[jonoslack]

Point is we all sometimes have particular preferences or requirements for a given function of a camera (or how it is implemented), which may be different from another. I dont believe its a question of right or wrong but what might work well for one, might not work so well for another.

Dave (D&A)

I couldn't agree more -

 

[jlindstrom]

I couldn't agree more -

I’ll agree to agree with you agreeing with Dave :thumbs:

 

[siddhaarta]

Not had any issues with the ISO dial on my M10 other than the thing is so tough to raise. I wonder if that has been part of the reason people have been having failures due to the amount of manhandling required?

I don't think the failures have anything to do with heavy use of the dial. In my case I used it - maybe - 20 times before it failed.

If you read the reports of affected users on the Leica Forum you will see that it is also not firmware related and it seems that a certain range of serial numbers is affected.

One user said even that "I got confirmation from Leica repair service that it was a pure mechanical issue. It has to do with the glue applied in the dial mechanism not being strong enough."

 

[jonoslack]

I don't think the failures have anything to do with heavy use of the dial. In my case I used it - maybe - 20 times before it failed.

If you read the reports of affected users on the Leica Forum you will see that it is also not firmware related and it seems that a certain range of serial numbers is affected.

One user said even that "I got confirmation from Leica repair service that it was a pure mechanical issue. It has to do with the glue applied in the dial mechanism not being strong enough."

I don't think it's even that it isn't strong enough - as I understand it (not definitive) it wasn't applied properly to some cameras over a short period. It's likely to happen quickly . . . . or not at all as I understand it. It's not happened to either of my early cameras.

The other good news is that it's easily and permanently fixed, and Leica turnaround seems to be pretty fast as well

best