jonoslack
Active member
Thank You! I’m very flattered (thinks, must work on the other ones!)
All the best
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My Take on the Leica CL
- Thread starter jonoslack
- Start date
All the best
jonoslack
Active member
Godfrey: DFD Autofocus is Depth from Defocus -“ it’s a Panasonic technology which eliminates many of the drawbacks of contrast-detect AF”
Ricardo
I hope you’re flourishing.
Quite agree about Olympus - Fuji seems to be even worse (I chopped my µ43 gear in for Fuji in September and then, like a scalded cat, sold that and bought a Nikon D810 - which I’m really enjoying [even if the AF seems slower than the SL])
That’s an interesting Question re DFD, I suspect that it probably does support it, but I’m not sure how to find out (any suggestion?). The AF really feels like a quantum leap forwards from any of the other APS-C cameras - the really nice thing is that all the lenses AF quickly, and I had always suspected there was an issue with the TL primes which made them slower.
All the best
ptomsu
Workshop Member
If that actually would be DFD implemented in the CL (or even the SL) that would be great. I do hope that Leica finally will lift that secret ....
Godfrey
Well-known member
Thanks, Jono! I'd not heard of that before. (I guess because I mostly use manual focus lenses and don't really follow the AF technology game very closely... 
)
G
)G
Godfrey
Well-known member
I could see my way to trying out one of these bodies. After all, I have a full complement of M, R, and SL lenses. I could see it coupled with the WATE, the 'Lux 35 v2, and the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm as a lightweight complete kit ... and then pull out the Bazooka (SL 90-280) for some long lens fun. I'd need a Voigtländer 10mm for my ultrawide squares entertainment. I'll have to take a ride up to Leica Store SF...
I'm getting pretty good at resisting temptation, however.
G
I'm getting pretty good at resisting temptation, however.
G
jonoslack
Active member
Resistance is Useless!I'm getting pretty good at resisting temptation, however.
G
Godfrey
Well-known member
Handled CL at Leica SF. Nice camera, great viewfinder but disappointed that they did not implement the same LCD/EVF interaction as with SL and M10/EVF.
SL allows a mode where EVF is always on, while image review and menus are shown on the rear LCD. It works similar to a DSLR and I find it the most efficient way to work.
CL has an EVF extended mode that uses rear LCD for menu and review but still uses the eye sensor to turn EVF on/off. Even though that delay is much shorter than with Fuji X-T20 or X1D, it is still annoying.
Does anyone know if TL2 with EVF emulates same behavior as SL and M10?
Also missing back-button focusing on CL.
All that griping does not mean that I would not buy a CL. After living with the complexity of Fuji and Olympus cameras (don't get me started on Sonys), it is nice to handle a simple camera.
P.S.: Thanks Jono for a great review.
SL allows a mode where EVF is always on, while image review and menus are shown on the rear LCD. It works similar to a DSLR and I find it the most efficient way to work.
CL has an EVF extended mode that uses rear LCD for menu and review but still uses the eye sensor to turn EVF on/off. Even though that delay is much shorter than with Fuji X-T20 or X1D, it is still annoying.
Does anyone know if TL2 with EVF emulates same behavior as SL and M10?
Also missing back-button focusing on CL.
All that griping does not mean that I would not buy a CL. After living with the complexity of Fuji and Olympus cameras (don't get me started on Sonys), it is nice to handle a simple camera.
P.S.: Thanks Jono for a great review.
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ptomsu
Workshop Member
I could not agree more - Fujis is really bad in this regard and this is one of the reasons I sold it, but Olympus is not much better - only I got meanwhile used to the Olympus menu system and complexity.
But handling a camera like the CL is a big, Big, BIG relief :clap:
jonoslack
Active member
Thank you - I use EVF extended most of the time, I don't find that there is any significant delay. I don't miss back-button focusing, but I always like to have an exposure lock (I guess if you want simplicity you can't have everything!)
All the best
No, "depth from de focus" - basically Panasonic invested in researching how to characterize their lenses so the camera could have a vector of where the lens should go to focus (similar to effective PDAF like behavior), with contrast autofocus, by "looking" at out of focus areas and how they change as the lens focuses.
The drawback is that this works in full only with their lenses, but their latest DFD cameras including the little GX850 can still benefit from this partially according to them, even with Olympus and other 3rd party lenses.
It gives "pdaf" ability to a contrast only system/sensor. The Leica Q has it (pretty sure it's Panasonic's).
- Ricardo
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I have to strongly disagree about Fuji
Fuji has sensible menus and the exposure controls are very explicit for the most part, plus you can set them even with the camera off (like several Leicas). Fuji has a couple of rough edges in very specific areas (DR setting, why the DR setting vanishes at the top ISO's and why it forces your ISO up). But other than that, it's far far much simpler than where Olympus is now.Panasonic has a pretty sensible UI also. If I were Olympus I would take a long look at where they are and look at their original E-1 and look what Panasonic/Leica/Pentax/Fuji did.
One easy thing for them - make a button *always* bring the super control panel. Don't make that modal with something else (touch AF point mode for example). Add a firmware update covering PenF, OMD EM5 MKII and EM1 MK1 to allow to change the color of the focus marker (like EM1 MKII allows finally).
My opinion of course. ;-) Would love to hear what major issues you found with Fuji (won't argue though I would say the pre-Xpro 2 chip cameras had a couple of further issues "pumping the shutter" after pre-focus).
But I definitively would agree that Leica got simplicity of UI better overall.
Well for one, they don't mention it anywhere (they do for the Q). A somewhat scientific but still probably good enough way to find out is to get a Q, and the fastest lens that the CL can focus, and experiment with how both do APS-C and go from far to near/ near to far focusing to an object in the middle. If you see the CL going past target to go back more often, then it's not DFD.
Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I really like the idea they got with the CL. I took a quick look at the lenses and quite frankly, I can't justify going this way due to pricing, but that doesn't stop me from admiring their usability with this camera.
As for the Q- if Leica could do the same with a 40mm lens and a new sensor that avoids banding, keep price the same and rest same, that would be interesting on that line!
- Ricardo
Update: *bling* I was wrongo. :scry: Leica doesn't mention the Q has DFD. Thought at the Leica store here they told me something that seemed to point to that but my memory is fuzzy enough that I really can't make the claim.
So looks like it's just an inference from how well the Q focuses, and the fact Leica often gets tech from Panasonic (and then Leica helps them with some lenses).
So given that, who nows, yup, maybe the CL has some of this too. In the end of course what matters is how fast and accurately the camera can do it, so DFD or not, if it does it well, that's all that counts.
Jono- how would you compare say the Leica Q AF speed (single shot) vs the CL using the wide prime pancake? I guess that's a better way to look at it.
Sorry everyone for making the DFD claim. Not my intention to mislead in any way.
- Ricardo
So looks like it's just an inference from how well the Q focuses, and the fact Leica often gets tech from Panasonic (and then Leica helps them with some lenses).
So given that, who nows, yup, maybe the CL has some of this too. In the end of course what matters is how fast and accurately the camera can do it, so DFD or not, if it does it well, that's all that counts.
Jono- how would you compare say the Leica Q AF speed (single shot) vs the CL using the wide prime pancake? I guess that's a better way to look at it.
Sorry everyone for making the DFD claim. Not my intention to mislead in any way.
- Ricardo
Godfrey
Well-known member
Well, since I manual focus most of the time anyway, even with my AF lenses on the SL, DFD or not is irrelevant to me. I'm not all that sensitive to AF speed when I use it either ... just don't care most of the time. AF is just a nice convenience, when it works.
Menu complexity, on the other hand: I'd grown quite used to the logic of the Olympus menus through all the Olympus cameras I had such that I didn't find it complicated. I liked having all the configuration options available. The Panasonics were simpler and mostly okay. The Sonys were/are an abomination, and I never did figure out the Fujis. The M9, M-P, and SL (as well as other Leica models) are always pretty easy and unneeded most of the time anyway. The Leica M-D ... LOL! No menus, it just works beautifully. Of course, this points out a critical thing: If the manufacturer gets the configuration right in the first place, there's much less need for a complicated menu system.
But as soon as you put a rendering engine into the camera (the ability to make JPEGs requires it) you have to have some controls that aren't "day to day operate the camera" controls. The simplification of controls used in the SL, the M10, and now the CL is great. I've read through the entire CL manual a couple of times now and I'm pretty happy with what I see. Frankly, I'm sure the rest of the camera's functionality is just fine too.
It remains a little bit of a question mark to me as to whether the CL is worth the purchase, given my current satisfaction with the SL and M-D, but I put my name on my favorite vendor's list. If he gets one for me in time for my upcoming holiday trip to Ireland and the Isle of Man, I'll take it and take it with me for the fun of it. Otherwise, I'll take my M-D and see if I want the CL still when I get home in January.
G
Menu complexity, on the other hand: I'd grown quite used to the logic of the Olympus menus through all the Olympus cameras I had such that I didn't find it complicated. I liked having all the configuration options available. The Panasonics were simpler and mostly okay. The Sonys were/are an abomination, and I never did figure out the Fujis. The M9, M-P, and SL (as well as other Leica models) are always pretty easy and unneeded most of the time anyway. The Leica M-D ... LOL! No menus, it just works beautifully. Of course, this points out a critical thing: If the manufacturer gets the configuration right in the first place, there's much less need for a complicated menu system.
But as soon as you put a rendering engine into the camera (the ability to make JPEGs requires it) you have to have some controls that aren't "day to day operate the camera" controls. The simplification of controls used in the SL, the M10, and now the CL is great. I've read through the entire CL manual a couple of times now and I'm pretty happy with what I see. Frankly, I'm sure the rest of the camera's functionality is just fine too.
It remains a little bit of a question mark to me as to whether the CL is worth the purchase, given my current satisfaction with the SL and M-D, but I put my name on my favorite vendor's list. If he gets one for me in time for my upcoming holiday trip to Ireland and the Isle of Man, I'll take it and take it with me for the fun of it. Otherwise, I'll take my M-D and see if I want the CL still when I get home in January.
G
Robert Campbell
Well-known member
A bit off topic, but where to in Ireland? (I expect to be in Switzerland for a while over Christmas.)
Godfrey
Well-known member
I'm spending Xmas with my friend Jack and his family in Cork, Ireland; I'll be there from the 21st to the 28th. Then I hop over the Irish Sea to visit my friend Paul and his family on the Isle of Man for New Years, a few days later hop back to Cork and fly home on Jan 4.
It should be a fine little trip! I'll be carrying a minimum of camera gear, likely just the M-D and two lenses unless the CL arrives in time. Then I'll take just it and two lenses... maybe three for the heckuvit.
G
Robert Campbell
Well-known member
Not only the other end of the island, but I expect to be away at the same time.
I'm sure you'll have a great time...whatever the weather (and the Brexit complications)!
The CL sounds as if it would make a good travel camera.
jonoslack
Active member
Where do you live Robert - we went to Ireland for the first time this year (lovely gay marriage in Donegal).
Best
Whilst the weather might be complicated, there are zero Brexit complications for consideration.
.............. Chris
Godfrey
Well-known member
Ach, too bad we'll miss. But such it is at holiday time .. I cancelled the London leg of my trip too because the folks I'd like to visit there are too busy or away also. Have an excellent holiday!
The notion of a light, compact body that I can outfit with a trio of small lenses for travel is one of the primary draws of the CL for me. The SL only makes sense as a traveling camera if I'm doing work that requires maximum capability and quality; it and its best lenses are too much to carry for simple pleasure shooting when photography isn't the central focus of my travel. The M-D is superb for travel, and a good size, but a more limited scope in use. The CL would give me better access to my R lenses and extends their range while staying a small kit, which is good for both this kind of travel (planes, trains, automobiles) and for what has become again my primary travel (bicycle and motorcycle). A four to five lens kit with the CL, using M lenses, nets more range and versatility than the M-D while remaining a lot more compact and lighter than the SL.
So ... I'll see where it leads.
G