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M10

In Leica’s own words, it is supposed to have a new 24mp sensor that offers higher DR. The first post/ topic of this thread (the DXO) link is diametrically opposed to that claim.
I give you that, the DR of the Leica M10 could be better and I wish it would be on the level of Nikon D850 at low ISO (less than 200) ... nevertheless nothing that prevented me from buying one as soon as I could.

More important, I don't think that Leica has made a false or misleading statement at all:

1) As others have stated here, I see a clear improvement in DR between the M240 and M10 after six months of day-to-day use, especially at higher ISO (800 onwards) and shadow recovery (you must expose for highlights).

2) This is also reflected in William Claffs test site:

Claff-DR versus ISO Setting

... no crazy big improvement for sure, but very tangible .. and you can see in this testing that the DR of the M10 is virtually the same as the Nikon D850 at 200 ISO and above

3) even DXO detailed comparative measurements of DR at different ISO reflect this improvement and my real-life experience (click measurements and then dynamic range):

DXO-DR versus ISO Setting

The DXO so called "score" only tells something about maximum DR (at low ISO), but nothing about DR at different ISO settings
 
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There’s something funny going on in the DR vs. ISO table that’s in Sidhaartas link. Weird drop in the D850’s graph. If that’s legit, then the M10 actually beats the D850 between 200-500 ISO and after that it’s all equal. So the D850 would basically only see any benefit in under 200 ISO.

So on a bright sunny day, doing carefully metered landscapes on a tripod against high contrast scenery there could be benefits to be had shooting a D850 :bugeyes:

Then again, if the location is far out in the wilderness - there could be benefits to be had carrying a much lighter M10 system with it’s smaller lenses and using hdr methods to make up for the ”poor” dynamic range... just saying :toocool:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Great review. Matches my experience with the M10 too. The first digital M after the M9 & monochrom that interested me. I love my M10 & M246. Looking forward to a mono M10 sometime soon.
This is indeed a great review - a type of honest review that should be used by so many other so called reviewers :banghead:

The M10 is really very high on my photographic wish list, just need to find some money to finance it :bugeyes:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Then again, if the location is far out in the wilderness - there could be benefits to be had carrying a much lighter M10 system with it’s smaller lenses and using hdr methods to make up for the ”poor” dynamic range... just saying :toocool:
Poor Dynamic Range - POOR DYNAMIC RANGE :wtf::wtf::wtf:

I cannot hear that anymore - what was our DR when we shot film and the DR with even the most expensive digital cameras from 10 years ago - and where will the best DR be in 10 years from now? What DR can the naked eye see and what can our brain use for projecting real life images into our imagination?

I would never buy a D850 to be able to use my little M-lens jewels and I could not care leas if it has 1%, 10% or 50% better DR than the M10 as the M10 DR is already stellar and out of this world!

All that DR discussion and tests are MEANINGLESS already today - better start taking great pictures :clap:
 
Ptomsu, perhaps in the heat of the moment you misunderstood my post. Notice the little signs around ”poor”. Tongue in cheek, my friend... tongue in cheek.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Ptomsu, perhaps in the heat of the moment you misunderstood my post. Notice the little signs around ”poor”. Tongue in cheek, my friend... tongue in cheek.
I fully understand, sorry I did not want to be rude on you!

I am obviously as you getting tired of all that DR talks ....
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jlindstrom,

In Leica’s own words, it is supposed to have a new 24mp sensor that offers higher DR. The first post/ topic of this thread (the DXO) link is diametrically opposed to that claim.

https://us.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-M/Leica-M10/Details

Also, the M10 sports a mag-al alloy body and no brass.

Truth will triumph. I am comfident.
NO Vivek
The body may be mag alloy, but the top plate is brass - I’ve seen them being made in Portugal . . Same as previous digital M bodies.
 

jonoslack

Active member
There’s something funny going on in the DR vs. ISO table that’s in Sidhaartas link. Weird drop in the D850’s graph. If that’s legit, then the M10 actually beats the D850 between 200-500 ISO and after that it’s all equal. So the D850 would basically only see any benefit in under 200 ISO.

So on a bright sunny day, doing carefully metered landscapes on a tripod against high contrast scenery there could be benefits to be had shooting a D850 :bugeyes:

Then again, if the location is far out in the wilderness - there could be benefits to be had carrying a much lighter M10 system with it’s smaller lenses and using hdr methods to make up for the ”poor” dynamic range... just saying :toocool:
Yes, well, it’s certainly true that the dynamic range (especially wrt highlights) on the M10 is better at 200 ISO than it is at 100
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jono, There are countless examples. Just when I started using the high end Sony, it became immediately obvious.

Here is an example of that success (there was no second chance to capture this again) using the RX1R II:

Untitled by Vivek Iyer, on Flickr

I chose the Rx1R II deliberately because this is my 3rd camera. The first was recalled for a minor flaw and replaced with a new one. The second one was replaced with a brand new unit because their repair facility messed up a minor fix. Superb customer service. That (unlike Leica) does not cost 150 Euros for a dust up while replacing a sensor.

the monochrome A7rII(m) is a notch above this. Totally astonishing.
Sorry Vivek
You could have taken this with an Olympus Pen - really, anything which took a picture when you press the shutter release.

Actually, you probably would have done better with an iPhone and the HDR function! (Cheerful picture by the way)
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Sorry Vivek
You could have taken this with an Olympus Pen - really, anything which took a picture when you press the shutter release.

Actually, you probably would have done better with an iPhone and the HDR function! (Cheerful picture by the way)
Jono,

In fairness to Vivek, we can't really tell what the original lighting was like. That the final light looks quite unreal (interesting, but unreal) may be a testament to how much shadow recovery was needed to achieve it.

Best,

Matt (who uses an ancient CCD Leica most of the time :D )
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Jono!

Sadly, i would not have been able to given the conditions.

I really wish that I can work wonders with an iphone. They don’t need filters or lens hoods as well (i have a filter and a hood on my RX1R II)! ;)

Sorry Vivek
You could have taken this with an Olympus Pen - really, anything which took a picture when you press the shutter release.

Actually, you probably would have done better with an iPhone and the HDR function! (Cheerful picture by the way)
 

jonoslack

Active member
Jono,

In fairness to Vivek, we can't really tell what the original lighting was like. That the final light looks quite unreal (interesting, but unreal) may be a testament to how much shadow recovery was needed to achieve it.

Best,

Matt (who uses an ancient CCD Leica most of the time :D )
Maybe Matt, Maybe - I certainly agree we can’t tell what the original lighting was . . But shadow recovery is something that most cameras do really well (forget Leica).

Unless Vivek enlightens us with a copy of the unprocessed shot, and his recipe for rescue, then it can hardly be accepted as proof as to why it would be impossible to take the picture with a Leica (or any other camera come to that)
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Maybe Matt, Maybe - I certainly agree we can’t tell what the original lighting was . . But shadow recovery is something that most cameras do really well (forget Leica).

Unless Vivek enlightens us with a copy of the unprocessed shot, and his recipe for rescue, then it can hardly be accepted as proof as to why it would be impossible to take the picture with a Leica (or any other camera come to that)
Jono,

I agree with you on the entire subject. I have similar pictures from the M9 and - yes - the blacks are really black, but that doesn't change the effectiveness of the photo. I was really just expressing appreciation for Vivek's getting an effective , er, effect from a high DR photo.

Here's my favorite high DR M9 capture:



:D,

Matt
 
V

Vivek

Guest
The M9 that is reviewed here (along with the ME, M240 and M262) and is reported (in the posts above) to exhibit banding while attempting push the shadow regions, yes, given certain lighting conditions, it is possible to produce “high DR” images, even with that camera.

It is quite apparent that most Leica owners also use Sony cams (albeit secretly) and know the difference I am alluding to.
 

jonoslack

Active member
The M9 that is reviewed here (along with the ME, M240 and M262) and is reported (in the posts above) to exhibit banding while attempting push the shadow regions, yes, given certain lighting conditions, it is possible to produce “high DR” images, even with that camera.

It is quite apparent that most Leica owners also use Sony cams (albeit secretly) and know the difference I am alluding to.
Ah - the secret Cabal of Leica ownes who privately acknowledge them to be rubbish whilst using Sony cameras in real life . . I dare not speak their name :)

One cannot argue against the DxO mark (but one can question it’s significance).
 

MGrayson

Subscriber and Workshop Member
(Rant deleted)

I stopped posting on non-photography sites precisely because of the kind of arguments I was getting into here. My apologies.

--Matt
 
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It is quite apparent that most Leica owners also use Sony cams (albeit secretly) and know the difference I am alluding to.
This same statement could be made the other way around... it’s obvious and apparent that some Sony owners also use Leica cams (albeit secretly) and know the difference :wtf:

I say some, because among the gazillion Sony users they would be minority, as Leica is not the camera for mass markets.

Sony produces fine and capable cameras, agreed. BUT their haptics, user interface, modus operandi is wrong for people who appreciate the simple things like a Leica camera & rangefinder.

You’re trying to exchange our fine glass of cognac with a long island ice tea cocktail. We don’t want it.

So, your resistance is futile. You’re still preaching to a crowd of Leica owners, who’ve invested a pile of green into their gear and happen to love their gear. There, simply, is nothing you can say to turn this crowd around.

Be a happy Sony user, we don’t mind - but please, don’t try to convert us, we’re quite happy with our situation :cool:
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Well this a thread and comparison that I can absolutely relate to as an ex-Leica M9 owner who went medium format and supplemented it with both variants of RX1R / RX1RII and also all the A7’s and eventually ended up tiring of a great computer with crappy UI (albeit with great image quality but for me little joy in using them).

I sold off all of my Sony gear and couldn’t be happier returning again to the Leica M10 & M246. I’d forgotten how much I missed the shooting joy and effortless image quality with little or no post processing. The RX1R & RX1RII were both fabulous cameras and don’t underestimate the value of the excellent 35/2 Zeiss and AF but you would have to prise my M10 & 35 FLE from cold dead fingers. I never really liked the A7’s at all despite their great abilities.

Leica lust got so bad that I added a black paint MP and a M3 that matched my birthday. Sometimes the joy of photography isn’t about easiest ease of use, automation or pixelbating.
 
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